I know that this isn't the first topic on the subject, but I wanted to make my own. :-P
http://naturesnectar.blogspot.com (http://naturesnectar.blogspot.com)
That's the blog of one of the larger bee supply companies in minnesota. It's nice that he keeps a blog as it gives me some info on timing. Our weather is predicted to start warming a bit. They are advocating getting the patties on and syrup if needed. What's left of my production hives are a bit light. I've got some pollen patties and sugar syrup in jars setup for my next day off. Here's what the weather looks like up here.
http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/breezy-point-mn/56472/march-weather/2247904 (http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/breezy-point-mn/56472/march-weather/2247904)
So on Friday I plan on putting the patties on and inverted jars just on the edge of the cluster. I think my nucs are going to be ok but I'd like my production hives to get some feed. Anybody think that website is giving bad advice? If not I'm going to do it!
Sugar water will end up freezing and do the bees no good if they are light and need food.
Quote from: Steel Tiger on March 05, 2014, 12:49:58 AM
Sugar water will end up freezing and do the bees no good if they are light and need food.
AGREED; Syrup won't be consumed until overnight temps stop going below freezing (they'll eat dry sugar though if low on stores). However, many Beeks, including myself go through the annual process of 'warming' syrup and replacing it daily, especially RIGHT NOW... :)
When temps get above freezing during the day, do you think it'd thaw above the cluster? Also anything wrong with using a frame feeder and jar? Last question, I made 2-1 as I'd like just to keep some sugar to them not stimulate. If I can load them up on some 2-1 do I need to feed daily or just a certain amount per week?
They won't touch it unless its in the fifties...the syrup that is. So if overnight temps are in the single digits or below...like yours ..and mine.. ;) the chances of it warming up to be attractive is unlikely IMO.
However; Temps can be below freezing and your bees will consume 'warmed' syrup. Remember; once started, such feeding should not stop until the first blooms appear. Personally, I'd stick with dry sugar for a bit longer yet....it will keep a colony short on stores alive until conditions improve.
Thoughts on adding pollen patties? They all have a bunch of dry sugar above the cluster in the form of a 10 lb bag. Last I checked they were munching away. Is it a bad idea to add the pollen patties before I can start feeding syrup or should they be ok with the dry sugar.
Mine have been taking pollen like crazy the last two weeks. I put syrup on yesterday as well and hey seem to be taking that.
Alfred
Generally....I don't feed pollen until a few weeks, maybe a month before 'natural pollen' is available. Feeding pollen can really get a colony going....sometimes BEFORE weather is right.
Imagine a Spring colony with a healthy productive queen, now 'fooled' into believing its time to ramp things up because 'artificial' pollen is being brought in, so eggs are widely scattered throughout, bees are busy......then a 'cold snap' hits and all the work goes to nothing as bees and larva freeze........something to ponder.
In N/W Wisconsin, We're still about a month away from the 'first' bloom of willows...so I'll be supplying my bees with some pollen, added to their dry sugar over the next week or so.
Quote from: T Beek on March 05, 2014, 10:12:13 AM
Remember; once started, such feeding should not stop until the first blooms appear. Personally, I'd stick with dry sugar for a bit longer yet....it will keep a colony short on stores alive until conditions improve.
Are you saying that once you start feeding warmed syrup, they will ignore any dry sugar that's above the cluster?
That's been my experience. Once syrup feeding is started its hard to convince them to go back to dry sugar....they may even begin removing it from the hive.
So I had three more hives die. I had dry sugar and heat on all of these hives. So today I put a pollen patty and two jars of warmed sugar syrup on my remaining production hive and nuc. These jars have 2-1 in it. Hopefully they chug down as much as they possibly can. I'll check them tomorrow and Sunday. I can't check them daily due to working 12 hour shifts but will add new warmed syrup as frequently as I can. I hope I can keep these two going until spring!
....I hate winter.
Be sure to conduct 'thorough' inspections on each. Estimate number of bees, try to find queen, any larva, signs of disease, too much or too little ventilation, too few stores.
Not to start an argument but personally, I'm not convinced that providing artificial heat is that helpful especially in Northern regions, as I feel it makes bees too active when they should be in cluster instead, consuming too much honey, possibly giving them a false sense of security :idunno: I'm just not convinced....
We can learn a lot just by methodically examining dead outs.
My first dead hive died early on in December. I just think they didn't have the mass to keep warm enough during our cold December. My second dead hive starved. The other three were the latest discovery. I am pretty sure my nuc that died did so because of low mass or bees and starvation despite dry sugar. The two other two production hives are a mystery yet. I haven't had time to dive in. I wonder if they didn't starve despite dry sugar overhead. I'll have to check and report back.
Even dry sugar won't save a staving colony that can't break cluster long enough to find it when its too cold to move... :(
I agree on the point of stimulation with heat. Active bees consume more honey. In years past if we had early warmth and it got cold again, starvation would quickly become a problem. If too much early brood rearing goes on,they won't leave the brood for food store.
Heat can be a two edged sword.
Quote from: buzzbee on March 07, 2014, 06:36:23 PM
I agree on the point of stimulation with heat. Active bees consume more honey. In years past if we had early warmth and it got cold again, starvation would quickly become a problem. If too much early brood rearing goes on,they won't leave the brood for food store.
Heat can be a two edged sword.
Yes - that has been my experience as well.
I had brood rearing back in January without the heat. I suspect my two remaining hives have been doing the same.
Quote from: Bush_84 on March 08, 2014, 04:02:14 AM
I had brood rearing back in January without the heat. I suspect my two remaining hives have been doing the same.
That's not uncommon. Bees tend to ramp up as days get longer - - AND when temps get warmer, but not necessarily at the same time :). A good queen doesn't really stop laying so much as she just slows down as days get shorter and temps drop. Its with artificially heated hives that brood rearing can become problematic because bees are fooled into believing its warmer than it really is, or that winter isn;t going to be as long or severe as it will be IMO.
Just an opinion on artificial heat.....goes back quite a ways in the BM archives.... ;)
Where's our chief electric beek (CEB) when we need him, Mr Finski :) Finski we miss you!
Having done a good bit of experimenting and observing with electric heat, I don't agree with everything here, but if you're worried about stimulating the bees into thinking it's not winter, then does adding syrup make any sense? What does syrup normally mean in nature? The trees are blooming and its spring! Time to go out and multiply. :)
If the bees over brood and we get another cold snap (very likely), what's more likely to protect all that brood from getting chilled? Syrup or heat?
What I'm surprised to hear is that some of Bush's heated hives didn't make it. I've never had a heated hive die so I would be curious to hear the story behind his losses?
Finski did not overwinter with heat.He used it in spring for early builds up as this bee season was only three months long.He also didn't heat all of his hives,only the ones that needed an early boost.
No hocus pocus😂
He advocated proper feeding in fall and let wintering bees rest,
Quote from: BlueBee on March 08, 2014, 01:07:36 PM
Where's our chief electric beek (CEB) when we need him, Mr Finski :) Finski we miss you!
Having done a good bit of experimenting and observing with electric heat, I don't agree with everything here, but if you're worried about stimulating the bees into thinking it's not winter, then does adding syrup make any sense? What does syrup normally mean in nature? The trees are blooming and its spring! Time to go out and multiply. :)
If the bees over brood and we get another cold snap (very likely), what's more likely to protect all that brood from getting chilled? Syrup or heat?
What I'm surprised to hear is that some of Bush's heated hives didn't make it. I've never had a heated hive die so I would be curious to hear the story behind his losses?
I guess my personal dilemma with artificial heating concerns the "if the bees over brood" part. Artificial heating would in fact be the cause of such over brooding, no? I don't mean to cause friction ..... but that remains my concern and likely is the reason for 'my' philosophy of keeping bees.....that and the reality that bees have been doing well without our assistance for a lot longer than with it... ;).......
That all said; it doesn't mean I'm not interested or intrigued by these methods...because I am.. 8-)
It should be noted that I added heat at the end of February. Only my nucs had heat tape on them all winter. I won't get a good idea about what happened until I get a good chance to look and I haven't had a day off in forever. Later today I'll have a chance to look. My gut tells me that they starved despite dry sugar. I thought dry sugar would keep them safe from that but maybe not.
Bush, it will be interesting to hear a report on your nucs and rather they over brooded in the winter.
Electric heat is just a tool in my toolbox that I use in certain circumstances. I know it's not for everybody. The fear of stimulating the bees into over brooding in winter seems to be wide spread among beeks. I wonder where that myth comes from? :idunno: After all how many folks have actually done it? Me, Bush, and who?
I have not seen the heat over stimulating the bees in mid winter myself. I was actually hoping for such stimulation when I first started out as a way to boost up small fall nucs but at least in my bee yard it takes more than heat to stimulate the bees. Even the Italians didn't brood up. The heat only enables them to build up faster when the other stimuli (day light, willow pollen, etc) trigger them to ramp up brooding; at least that's been my experience. There are numerous other problems that can occur with electric heat, but over brooding in winter hasn't been one I've seen.
Well got a chance to peek. The nuc that died just didn't have enough numbers. Not enough bees and I think they just froze. I didn't see any heads down in cells.
My two production hives both had two similar situations. Dysentery and heads in cells. No significant brood in any combs I could see. One of the dead hives actually had a couple of honey combs on the other side of the hive. Dang. They were all in contact with dry sugar. Also interestingly the two dead hives both had a light bulb under them as a heat source. The production hive and the nuc both have heat tape. Also one hive had a tight cluster and the other seemed to be maybe be divided.
One word on heat. My nucs need heat. Need. I don't live in Iowa or Nebraska. I live in minnesota. I know people who have lived in Maine along the Canadian border who describe their winters as mild. I've lived in Chicago. It is mild there. The more I keep bees the more I desire to see how the Canadians do it. Everybody talks about bees getting to warm and getting to active. Ok maybe if you get temps in the 30s. We don't. We get multiple days in a row with a high of 0. Whenever I try to winter a nuc I will do so with heat unless they are in an insulated shed or on top of another hive.
Since the original topic was about feeding I'll ask a feeding question. Is it safe to use sugar soiled with bee feces? One hive had dysentery worse than the other and I have a fair amount of sugar stained with feces. I wasn't sure if boiling the stuff would make it safe or not. Will be easy to dump if it's not safe. Also I replaced the jar feeders today. Each hive took down an inch or two from each jar feeder. That sound normal?
Bush84, I can't give you the answer concerning bees. With all the critters I've ever raised the golden rule was; don't let them live in crap. Too many parasites & diseases to be found. If you find crap in any water - pour it out, clean and refill. In the animal kingdom part of the life cycle of parasites is to be pass out through feces as eggs just to be taken up again through a cut or being ate(swallowed) after hatching. I'd strongly recommend not feeding it to them based on my experience with other animals.
I've met several and still know a few Canadian BEEKS since the 70's. Never met any that used artificial heat. The only thing I've found in common is top entrances, every canadian Beek I've ever met uses them. That and placing entrances on the LONG side instead of the SHORT side. Not all Canadians... but Never met anyone 'other' than Canadians doing that.
The most common reasons bees don't survive winter in 'my' chosen order ;)
1. Queen issues 2. Feed stores issues 3. Weather issues 4. Disease and parasites 5. Bad Beekeeping (the hardest one to come to terms with in many cases).
"different strokes for different folks"
Whats the thinking behind the opening on the long side? Reduced draft possibly?
Quote from: buzzbee on March 10, 2014, 08:59:01 AM
Whats the thinking behind the opening on the long side? Reduced draft possibly?
Easier access from behind to pull frames. Its the only reason I'm aware of....... :-\
Quote from: buzzbee on March 10, 2014, 08:59:01 AM
Whats the thinking behind the opening on the long side? Reduced draft possibly?
It's something warre users do actually. They claim it decreases drafts in the hive.
A larger opening 'decreasing' drafts? Seems illogical. :-\
Quote from: T Beek on March 10, 2014, 08:01:10 PM
A larger opening 'decreasing' drafts? Seems illogical. :-\
You could put in a reducer if you were concerned. It's more so about comb orientation. A breeze can go through and run right down all the combs. But fit the combs are perpendicular to the entrance it hits the comb and stops the draft. It's just what I've read. Warre hives are square and can be turned for a winter and summer orientation.
Now that makes sense.....Thanks!
So here's another question about feeding. Things have been warm and I have been replacing my inverted jars whenever possible. Today I have all day off and I have the next two days off as well. I don't believe I have much going on and could replace the inverted jars as often as needed. How long do you suppose that syrup stays warm enough to consume?
It should stay warm enough to last the day...with help from your bees... ;). I'd think a pint a day would indicate a hungry hive, any more than that would get cold before they consumed it with current temps.
Is it a bad idea to put syrup on if there is a spate of warm weather and they will take it, and stop if there is another cold spell? Seems I've read somewhere that once you begin feeding syrup in the spring, you should not stop until nectar is available and coming in. Any thoughts?
Its been my own experience that once began....DON"T stop feeding until a natural flow is on.
The other thing to worry about (feeding everyday with small scale apiary) is them backfilling the cells and then having a premature swarm take place.
Quote from: GSF on March 21, 2014, 09:44:36 AM
The other thing to worry about (feeding everyday with small scale apiary) is them backfilling the cells and then having a premature swarm take place.
So true - I forget where some of you folks are posting from, sorry. I can only base the advise I provide on my own region.......Once 'syup' feeding begins....don't stop until the first flow.........providing a pint of warm syrup per day won't cause backfilling because the bees will be consuming the majority.
We still have over 3 feet of snow and predicted temps reaching near zero for a few more days up here - chances are good my bees are still in cluster fro another few weeks...... :)
I'm building/testing out a feeding box. The purpose is to basically enclose the jar and add some sort of heat source inside the box. That'll allow me to not have to exchange out jars while it's still cold. Thoughts?
Double post but thus far simple plywood with poly on top warmed up a refrigerated jar of syrup. I used two 15 watt bulbs. Maybe I'll put them in with a single bulb first.
Sounds like a fun experiment to me. :) Ya know I like to mix electricity and bees. :-D
I don't see any reason it shouldn't work. I have taken a different approach when I felt they were running low on stores, but my guess is your approach will probably work fine too. My strategy has been to heat the whole box up warm enough that the bees can easily move to the honey in the side combs if necessary instead of risking back filling of brood comb. I believe the hive heat also facilitates a larger spring brood area resulting in a faster spring build up. Finski has some kind of heat sphere formula to explain it. Believe it or not, but my bees have been more interested in water in the spring than syrup.
It's always nice to see beeks experimenting. X:X
Quote from: T Beek on March 21, 2014, 10:49:56 AM
We still have over 3 feet of snow and predicted temps reaching near zero for a few more days up here
That is just down right DEPRESSING. :'( What a winter. :evil: Looks like our cold is staying mostly in the UP for now. We've still got some piles of snow 3' high, but thank the Good Lord most of it has finally melted from the fields and yards. Now I gotta use a boat to get back to my bees. It's going to be tough year.....
We just got a thick 4 inches today. Snow is surely not gone here. Hopefully April will melt the snow.
i have heating pads (17 watts, not insulated bee hives) on the bottom board and one bee hive has two light bulbs ,one is 4 and other one is 7 watts and i gave sugar water 3 days ago. bees with heating pad have not received syrup but the bee hive with light bulbs finished all syrup and light bulbs are close to the jar. i gave them protein patties again and hopefully heating pad help them build up quickly. winter is still harsh and we will have very cold nights again in couple days.
i have not lost any beehives this winter but one of them is weak like 3 frames but queen is young. do you think this hive can give honey?
how strong or weak are your bee hives,how many frames of bees in a strong colony? i would like to hear especially from those are from the same climate zone. mine is 6a
I'm in zone 3 I believe. So I can't really compare much with you. My one nuc fills it out on a nice day and seems to cover 3 frames on a cold one. My production hive is three when cold and probably five when nice. The next month will be interesting as weather should start to turn for the better. Flying will start. Maples will bloom.
Just a follow up...the feeder heater works great! Syrup stays pretty warm and the bees seem to like it. They seem somewhat huddled around it. They still haven't taken a lot of syrup. Could that be because I put 2-1 instead of 1-1 in the jars? Or is that completely unrelated? I put in 2-1 because I thought they were light, but maybe they aren't as bad as I thought.