well, here we go, getting screwed again....where was everyone fighting this? Where 'is' everyone now? Our state first is yours next? 8 homes within 1/4 mi...sigh.
http://www.inquisitr.com/1235774/michigan-loses-right-to-farm-this-week-a-farewell-to-backyard-chickens-and-beekeepers/ (http://www.inquisitr.com/1235774/michigan-loses-right-to-farm-this-week-a-farewell-to-backyard-chickens-and-beekeepers/)
What a shame! I love to support local farms here in CT through local farm markets, CSAs, etc. I feel much better about the produce and meats being produced by these small farms that are close enough for me to visit vs. the large, monoculture and factory farms that often supply our grocery stores. I'm really sorry to hear this and hope that communities will support these small family farms on a local level.
I'd go to jail over that. I'd find out who sponsored the act, then who voted for it. The next step is to make it very public, especially during campaigning time. My land goes back a couple generations. We are experiencing what is commonly called "The White Flight". Pretty much white folks wanting to get out of the city and move to the country. My ancestors cut down trees, blew stumps, then worked like heck to keep the land. I couldn't handle that law.
QuoteI'd find out who sponsored the act, then who voted for it.
That's an easy one. The same political party that always uses "fear" to strip us of our rights.
http://www.michigan.gov/mdard/0,4610,7-125-1572_2878-8251--,00.html. (http://www.michigan.gov/mdard/0,4610,7-125-1572_2878-8251--,00.html.)
All appointed by our Republican Governor. Michigan is under the control of the Republicans.
QuoteThe next step is to make it very public, especially during campaigning time.
LOL. And how many bee keepers do you think are going to abandon the Republicans. :lau: :lau: :lau:
In defense of the Republicans...there are always two sides to a story and we're only hearing one side here. My guess is there have been a few bad apples abusing the "right to farm act". That resulted in serial complaints that finally bubbled up to the state level. Has anybody ever lived next to a house in town with Roosters?
It sounds to me like our Republican friends have passed democracy back to the local level and it's now up to each community (ie "the people") to decide their own destiny. Right?
It turns out, this judgment, even though it is the first step to totally screwing over beek hobbyists, isn't what will screw them over. what this judgment does is proclaim they are not protected by the small farms act of '81. which then leaves the people defenseless against city management, to them be the ones who screw them over. Their argument is that if they did not make this determination, then a neighbor in a regular neighborhood could then put 4,999 chickens on his small property in the middle of a full neighborhood, and there is nothing the law could do about it, even if they did not fall within what are called GAAMPS " Generally Acceptable Agricultural and Management Practices", because the 'LAW' takes precedence. They can still make a GAAMP that says it is ok to have 3-4 hives/acre or something...but either or, it is BS.at least within reason....ok...I can admit there should be some rules. can we have a full scale beehive operation of 100-200 hives in the middle of the city on some guys small property? no I don't think we should force his neighbors to endure that. so there should be rules. but those rules cannot be allowed to be changed willy nilly by a few pompous idiots who happen to be in office for a few years, and they should be reasonable.
we as the bee community should really have input on what is reasonable, and what is not. Should it be based on so many hives/size of lot, without being within 10 ft of a property line, without consent of the neighbor? I do not think that is unreasonable, depending on how many hives/what size/etc.
And gov. snyder is up for re-election. I like him personally and he has done a tremendous amount for this state, totally changed it's direction since the last loser democrat was in office (And of course blue is lying, MI is not under control of the republicans, if it was things would be far better, carl levin and debbie spenditnow are both of our senators, and both democrats who we will hopefully get rid of this election, but we do have a majority as representatives in the house of republicans, which is why the state is finally getting better.) However, we should all blast him if you live here or not and tell him to put pressure on the Michigan Department of Agriculture, to reverse this, come up with hard rules that are acceptable or something or threaten to get rid of him, imo. He does work for us.
I really don't like this change. If they did that in NC, i would not be able to keep bees, and i live in the country.
<I really don't like this change. If they did that in NC, i would not be able to keep bees, and i live in the country.>
Chux, that's kinda what I was talking about. I can understand restrictions in the city where everyone is elbow to elbow, but in the country it shouldn't apply. Then everyone's definition of "country" is different.
Don't leave us people in the city in the cold...first of all, sometimes a person buys a house that isn't in the 'city' and it becomes the city there after, because people and the city build around them. every is really in 'a' city almost. As you state, what determines what a city is compared to country anyways? They are attempting to define it as less than 8 homes within a 1/4 mi radius. that means you could be on a farm, and that farm could stretch for 10 miles on three sides away from people and have plenty of room...but on the 4th side, it is only 1300 ft. away. (standard 'city' blocks in portland and manhatten for instance are 260ft street to street.).... so you are talking 8 houses that are 4 city blocks away on one side, and suddenly it is no longer a protected farm. OR, as some farms have, they have family homes on their property also, so 3-4 homes on their property, and then 3-4 on one side 4 city blocks away, is still 8 residents within 1/4 mi. or maybe 1 on each side of the large property.)
The way the laws are now, is all things still have to follow sound and other ordinances. you can't blare your radio or your rooster for instance and disturb the neighbors. but many of us have beehives within 6-10 ft of a neighbors property. One, two, or a few hives should not be a problem, and they occur naturally as well anyways.
did just find out also:
quote from the MDARD Press Release: "...The eight GAAMPs are reviewed each year by a committee of experts in their field allowing an opportunity for them to evolve and adapt based upon current situations and conditions in Michigan."
.
so one year you can...one year they get idiots who claim you cannot...next year they claim you can, year after they claim you cannot...BS.
I wish someone would post a link to the actual law as this link is spreading all over but not one reference to the actual law.
In reading the article it does not specifically ban any farming. It just relinquishes it to local control which likely could already be done by changing zoning district.
Now is the time to get ordinances in agricultures favor of agriculture on the local books. And if there is no prohibitions,you as citizens need to be aware when your local jurisdiction tries to make changes. It is always advertised. Many places already have restrictions and people don't know because they don't pay attention and no one ever made an issue out of it.
Did you not have any heads up from your state bee association? If not,I'd ask why. You need something for your dues.
I see this is being spread by the Sierra club.I don't think they are friends of Agriculture. Local control makes it harder for them to push their agenda in farming practice too.
If it means what you think it means,you need to have every beekeeper and farmer contacting the "elected 'officials and have them repeal this. Ultimately elected officials are responsible for any law passed.
well that is part of the issue. truth is, this isn't 'changing the law' all it is doing is being over-reach. some council that isn;t even elected officials, is just proclaiming what they have decided is their definition, that the small farm act of 1981 means and doesn't mean, and then issuing a GAAMP (General Agriculture 'acceptable' management practice) it's just like Obama issuing a executive order, which is really supposed to only apply to how the executive branch is to interpret laws 'as he sees it' as it's head...but that has then changed into 'is treated as law', and that should never be done.... same with these clowns and all other clown agencies as well. The police do not get to decide what Laws mean willy nilly, and certainly 5 appointed people shouldn't either. as for the small farming act of 1981/right to farm act 1981, here it is:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdard/RTF_ACT-93-of-1981_379049_7.pdf (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdard/RTF_ACT-93-of-1981_379049_7.pdf)
in part:
"286.472
Definitions.
Sec. 2.
As used in this act:
(a)
"Farm" means the land, plants, animals, buildings, structures, including ponds used for agricultural or
aquacultural activities, machinery, equipment, and other appurtenances used in the commercial production of
farm products.
(b)
"Farm operation" means the operation and management of a farm or a condition or activity that occurs
at any time as necessary on a farm in connection with the commercial production, harvesting, and storage of
farm products, and includes, but is not limited to:
(i)Marketing produce at roadside stands or farm market...
and they want to change it to NOT include something that is not within 8 other residents within 1/4 mile radius. We cannot see the notes or the minutes of the meeting because they meet in private, and 'at their ability' put the notes up onto their site for the people to see....last meeting was April. 28th. the last meeting with the information on their site is from march 20th I believe, almost 2 months ago.
Quote from: Better.to.Bee.than.not on May 05, 2014, 05:01:25 AM
And of course blue is lying, MI is not under control of the republicans, if it was things would be far better, carl levin and debbie spenditnow are both of our senators, and both democrats who we will hopefully get rid of this election
LOL, you talk about being in denial of reality :laugh: Sounds like somebody needs to review 8th grade civics. US Senators do NOT write Michigan Laws. The legislators in Lansing write Michigan Law and the Republicans have had a super majority in Lansing until recently. This recent decision on the RTF act was made by a commission of 100% Republican appointees. Sorry that facts get in the way of fantasy sometimes.
QuoteIn reading the article it does not specifically ban any farming. It just relinquishes it to local control which likely could already be done by changing zoning district.
BuzzBee is right.
The state law was being used/abused as a loophole around local government laws. Technically someone could keep up to 4999 chickens on a city lot and be protected by the RTF act. Is that really fair for the neighbors? Maybe, maybe not, but shouldn't local communities have a right to make up their own minds? If you don't like the way your local government is governing, then vote them out, go to city council meetings, let your voice be heard. Why do you want Lansing, or Washington DC telling you what you can or can't do?
Maybe this is a more fair and balanced perspective on the change than B2B's report.
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/01/removing_michigan_right_to_far.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/01/removing_michigan_right_to_far.html)
Quote from: Better.to.Bee.than.not on May 05, 2014, 06:51:17 PM
it's just like Obama issuing a executive order, which is really supposed to only apply to how the executive branch is to interpret laws 'as he sees it'
Wrong again. Did you even read the law?
257.923 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(d)
"Generally accepted agricultural and management practices" means those practices as defined by the Michigan commission of agriculture. The commission shall give due consideration to available Michigan department of agriculture information and written recommendations from the Michigan state university college of agriculture and natural resources extension and the agricultural experiment station in cooperation with the United States department of agriculture natural resources conservation service and the consolidated
farm service agency, the Michigan department of natural resources, and other professional and industry organizations
The law says a commission will make the decision over how GAAMP are defined. The Republicans are actually following the law which is refreshing. X:X
GO TO THE STATE AND DEMAND THIS SHOULD BE DISOLVED.
THEN VOTE THE BUMBS OUT OF OFFICE
I was wondering if the law was being abused by the example you gave Blue.
I have seen similar things here. And often times there is ignorance of other laws of husbandry such as manure management and numbers of animals per acre and a lot of other stuff that pits the locals in a heard spot with rules of the state. There are times that the people involved can make better decisions for their communities than a bureaucrat a couple hundred miles away. I bet it is easier for citizens to attend a town/township/county meeting to state their case than go to the state assembly. Whether it be the farmer or town folk who would like their input in local legislation.
My guess is that hobby farmers ignorant of the laws or arrogance is what brought this about. I am not saying this about all of them, just the reckless ones.
Here is how things are working out in one municipality in PA. Common sense is prevailing once the facts have been presented at the local level and I tyhink most things could be done better on local case by case basis.
http://plymouthwhitemarsh.patch.com/groups/politics-and-elections/p/plymouth-tweaks-draft-beekeeping-ordinance-reduces-requirements (http://plymouthwhitemarsh.patch.com/groups/politics-and-elections/p/plymouth-tweaks-draft-beekeeping-ordinance-reduces-requirements)
It's not perfect,but compromises are being made to keep beekeeping acceptable.
This is a suburban area of Philadelphia.
Quote from: buzzbee on May 07, 2014, 09:00:09 PM
I bet it is easier for citizens to attend a town/township/county meeting to state their case than go to the state assembly.
My guess is that hobby farmers ignorant of the laws or arrogance is what brought this about. I am not saying this about all of them, just the reckless ones.
Exactly. I go to city council meetings all the time. You're MUCH more likely to have your opinion listened to in your own community than at the State house. The folks on the city council are usually members of the city/town too; they're your neighbors.
As BuzzBees link showed, local ordinances are not dictates handed down from the mayor; they are drafted, reviewed, and voted on by the city council with input from concerned citizens. There is some flexibility if you participate in the process.
I would prefer to have no restrictions, but there are always a few bad apples that will abuse the system and force the rest of us responsible folks to adhere to a set of rules. In the case of Michigan, it looks like the main problem was people trying to keep noisy chickens in town despite lots of complaints and then trying to hide behind a technicality in the State's Right to Farm Act.
I doubt there will ever be as many people/situations using the law to get away with doing things as there are people using the law to prevent people/situations from doing things. The small farms act is meant to protect people. That is its purpose. This post isn't about saying the sky is falling. it is about people becoming aware and getting involved. Without the protection from the small farms act, or as it is known the right to farm act, there is no protection. None really. yes, you 'can attend' meeting, but as has been shown numerous times even if you do it doesn't mean those making the decisions will listen or do what the people at those meetings wish for them to do. Once the vote is on , it's on and done.
What this means is folks are now without protection and are forced to get out and spread education about bees/chickens/etc., and just hope people don't have some bias on the councils making these decisions, or bought off. In short...I always hope those involved will have the intelligence to make the 'right' and 'fair' choices.... and I am often disappointed, so do not want 'the protections' to disappear.
Governor Snyder and our State Rep Ray Franz along with others are already working to reverse this. The right to farm has nothing to do with city people raising "5000 chickens on a city lot. My farm being on the front 40 of the main Hwy has been rezoned 2 times in the last 20 years. It was first rezoned commercial and then rezoned transitional residential about 3 years ago. My place has never been taken out of Ag. in over 100 years and will be grandfathered in as Ag until I stop doing it. I raise chickens, hogs and alot of bee's. There is a 20 acre parcel for sale next to me that someday might have homes on it. Most likely a city person that wants to get out in the county. Suddenly after building there dream home they realize that farm animals make noise,smell bad and have sex out doors and they dont like it. The right to farm was set up to stop problem situations like this from ever making it into the courts.
Exactly Danno, and thanks for speaking up. even though it may be grandfathered in for you, what about the future? We shouldn't allow it to even end with you. Thats been another scam they've been using...they rightly think that people won't care what happens after they are not around anymore, so make these rules that expire after they do, when often the persons family carries on, or even maybe another family.
I'll be watching to see how quickly your Republican Governor, your Republican super majority Senate, and your Republican controlled House of Reps take to reverse what your commission of 100% Republicans ruled. :laugh: I'm sure the big money supporters down in Bloomfield Hills won't mind 4999 chickens taking over their neighborhood. :lau:
If worst comes to worst, you just might have to go to a city council meeting and meet your neighbors.
Quote from: BlueBee on May 12, 2014, 10:06:30 PM
I'll be watching to see how quickly your Republican Governor, your Republican super majority Senate, and your Republican controlled House of Reps take to reverse what your commission of 100% Republicans ruled. :laugh: I'm sure the big money supporters down in Bloomfield Hills won't mind 4999 chickens taking over their neighborhood. :lau:
If worst comes to worst, you just might have to go to a city council meeting and meet your neighbors.
Listen up blueboy THE RIGHT TO FARM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 4999 CHICKEN IN THE CITY. IT WAS NOT WRITTEN SO YOU COULD HAVE BEE'S IN TOWN. Its obvious why it was dropped. Its needs to be reinstated with changes so it will work the way it was intended. I dont live in the city. Not even close to one so I dont deal with any city council. As for you usual "republican" crap. Michigan has 83 counties. In the last election Obama took 20 of them and Romney took 63. 3/4 of the state doesn't agree with you, Obama, Carl Levin or Debbie Stab-a-cow
I drove around today buying plants/etc. for the gardens, etc. and as I drove around, just around 23 mi and romeo plank/etc even and other places...I would see farms. and then I would see homes....easily within 1/4 mi more than 8 of them...and I kept thinking to myself all those farms....all those greenhouses, and people who have been there and doing what they have been doing for quite possibly decades upon decades...are all now possibly at risk of some retard in a office somewhere or on some counsel, deciding, possibly because they or one of their friends or relatives just bought property some where next to one of these places, of being just screwed over. We know it won't happen immediately..... They don't do things like that. They lurk in the background until they pounce. first on one farmer, after making up all sorts of things and tons of other 'infractions' they have made to find pretty much anyone guilty of something when they want it. And making it sound like that person is unreasonable. But then another, and then another.
Don't leave us private people or people in the city, under a bus Danno.... I know there is a much bigger picture here, and yes I agree, it involves a lot, seriously with people out of city proper... but we need protected also, and we all need each others support. We simply cannot allow 'the possibility' of them screwing any of us over by ambiguity imo.
I have always believed in safety in numbers. Contact your rep. on this issue. I already did last week. If you live in a city, talk to you city council. In the last few years quite a few BIG cities have allowed a couple of colonies. Use this info in your favor. There is alot of good info with a few years of history to present to them. Dont look for loop holes to get your agenda through because sooner or later they get closed.
I never really looked at it as a loophole. I looked at it as it should be meant to be. Small farms and farmers needing protection. And that is how it was pitched when it was made surely. Some may view 'small farms' somehow as only being people outside the city limits. some may view it as something completely different. this is how they work... right now they are trying to define it as someone who doesn't have 8 houses within a 1/4 mi of the farm evidently. And they will certainly attempt to get us to each divide and separate ourselves into separate interest groups to not stand together, so they can pick us off separately. It would be unwise to allow them to do that, imo.
We have 10 million people in michigan... Honestly how many really have a problem with the way things were you figure?
This is being pushed in a large part by big farming without a doubt. in 2011 according to this site:
http://www.agclassroom.org/kids/stats/michigan.pdf (http://www.agclassroom.org/kids/stats/michigan.pdf)
michigan has 10 million acres of farming, and 56,000 farmers. yet the ave farm size is 182 acres..... give me a break.... that means the many of those who have less than that 182 acres are being offset by the much fewer of those who have a heck of a lot more.
I agree completely. The loophole I'm talking about is inside city limits. I have not heard back.from my rep. as of yet so I sent another email today and will again on Friday if necessary.
The Email idea is a good one, and I'll 'bee' suggesting it to the Tea Party groups in the area as well as spreading word at farmer's markets and such too. I hope small farmers make little labels and put it right on their products, for that matter, to let their customers know too.
If the people who have 4,999 chickens in the backyard of their neighbors want to do the same and be on the opposing side, then so be it.....I'm guessing there are far more who do not have neighbors doing that though frankly.
Quote from: Better.to.Bee.than.not on May 14, 2014, 04:08:52 PM
michigan has 10 million acres of farming, and 56,000 farmers. yet the ave farm size is 182 acres..... give me a break....
LOL. Better Bee have you ever been north of 23 mile :laugh: I don't recall seeing too many 182 acre farms in Metro Detroit either. :lau: There's a reason for that ya know.
As the tax man raises the taxable value on your Metro Detroit acres, the Farmers and Nurserymen pretty much have to sell out to developers (for a nice profit) and move further out where land prices are lower if they want to continue farming. Bordine's moved their massive greenhouse operations all the way out to Grand Blanc because of the high taxes in Oakland Co.
As for the RTF act, if I was a realist (yep that's me) then at best I would expect the RTF act to be re-codified to reflect the original intent of the law; protecting rural farms from city slickers moving in and then complaining (as Danno so eloquently pointed out). I don't think there's a snowballs chance in Naples of State law overriding local city ordinances anymore. So Danno and I will probably be allowed to go about our merry ways (outside city limits), while you're probably going to have to start going to city council meetings. Oh, to be a fly on the wall ;)
I'm telling you though, it's the chickens that are driving the cities nuts, not the bees. The city cops just evicted some chickens across the street from me last week. They had guns drawn and everything.
Bluebee, you have to be careful when approaching chickens. Aren't they poisonous? I always carry my gun when we gather eggs :-D
Folks ought to buy a bunch of gienies(sp) and turn them loose. That'll give the a real reason to complain.
have you even been out of your mothers basement? Who said anything about 182 acre farms being south of 23 mi, or it making a difference? you make no sense at all.... so go ahead and laugh all you want, but you only amuse yourself from your simplicity.
You can expect whatever you want to expect. what you expect means nothing. we're here to help ensure it goes the way we think it should, and in favor of beeks who do no harm to anyone. Most of my hives are out of the city also, it isn't the point. I do still have them at my home, and I still do not think people should be forced to not be able to raise their own food. If the issue is merely the chickens then they can stop their current BS, and work with just preventing people from having 4,999 chickens and make you happy.
But you do not even make sense. first you 'claim' " So Danno and I will probably be allowed to go about our merry ways (outside city limits)" and then you 'claim' " The city cops just evicted some chickens across the street from me last week. " ..... so which is it? Face it you are the typical liberal who just wants govt. to run everything that you do not agree with, and allow you to do everything you do agree with. you are probably the one who called the police on the people across the street from you in the first place.
Nicely said Better to Bee!!!!!!!
Well now,then how would we do something about that city dweller protected by the right to farm act that does not do things responsibly? Such as poor manure management and improperly stored feeds that create a rodent problem within the neighborhood?
There are some small municipalities where people still rely on well water that can become contaminated with improper manure management. It has happened in our vicinity.Should we turn our backs to this because it's farming?
I can see that these type of people are why municipalities want some control brought back to the home front. Not hidden behind the "right to farm" act. Perhaps rewriting the act to reflect a management plan within confines of a populated area may be beneficial. Local government can act on these types of problems faster than waiting on a state agency to make changes or find those being irresponsible.
Isn't it government control when the state passed a law overriding ordinances passed by people of local communities that are more in their interest?
Passing a law to protect us from other laws is still government control.
Perhaps we should pass a law that says a farmer that can no longer make a living can not sell his ground to the party willing to pay the most.Lets remove his personal freedom of what he does with his land so it will always be agricultural land.That would be the best protection for the agricultural community.
Being protected and allowed to farm has nothing to do with poisoning the water supply or putting anyone in danger. So you do it like you would under any other situation. you find the people who are doing things irresponsibly and you fine them specifically for doing it. You certainly do not make a blanket statement that effects everyone, or denies everyone the ability. And while you are at it, you can also make guidelines with explanations that tells people exactly why those guidelines exist. poor management can harm the water supplies of the city and your neighbors and harm people.
As far as I'm concerned they can have reading material and anyone who wishes to small farm can be forced to sign a document saying they read and understand said material. After that if they continue or do things against it, then the case can be made that they are willfully doing things to harm others, or they can make the case to defend themselves.
We can make guidelines that say for instance so many rabbits/chickens/etc per so much space. We can make guidelines on for instance not dumping rabbit or chicken waste down community wells or etc.
And if it was farmland before, which everything pretty much was at one time or another. merely because you come strolling in doesn't nor shouldn't mean you then get to tell others they have to then change because you don't like it. I do not think anyone is suggesting people cannot sell their land to whomever they wish. Nor once someone gains that land they cannot do what they wish with it, within limits. But a person cannot be allowed to buy land next to a farm, and then claim someone ELSE cannot then farm because they then own the land next to them. One is personal responsibility with your own possession and the other is trying to dictate what others do with their possessions.
The world is going to get nothing but more populated. We are going to have to develop and find ways for people to grow and raise food in residential areas, there is no doubt about it. And we will have to have neighbors doing it as well as ourselves eventually. Many systems are and can be hugely self contained. Bees are not one of them. Bees need to, at this time anyways, for the most part forage to produce their product, and the world and it's agriculture needs them and other insects to do so as well. It's been forever since I've even seen a garter snake around. I'm not a nature 'freak' but when I bought my houses, it wasn't 'ME' that changed, it was the neighborhood AROUND me. and I have plenty of property to have things on, that won't nor do not effect my neighbors or their water at all. There should be no blanket statements that effect me, merely because someone else who owns a 90 x 150 ft lot and tries to raise 4,999 rabbits on it. Now if they live in a 16' x 76 mobile home, and they have it positioned with a area behind it and want to raise some rabbits, or chickens, then they have some area to do it. about 90 x 134 ft. People have dogs that make a total racket. There are laws and statutes that bind people to noise ordnances. It effects their dogs too. a certain decibel level a certain distance away, from certain times to certain times for a reason (To allow people to sleep) completely legit. That sound ordnance is in effect if it the neighbors kids, them playing their stereo, if they have noisy chickens, or anything else.
OK Mi beeks coming your way soon... Bay City is re-writing their ordinances to limit you to 3 cats, 3 dogs, and make you pay for permits for bees and chickens! Not only that, but a signed letter of approval from your neighbors if you want to keep bees. How wonderful..... :(
http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2014/05/cat_limit_ordinance_back_on_do.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2014/05/cat_limit_ordinance_back_on_do.html)
Call me a liberal if you like, but I'm sick and tired of having to pay for a permit for everything I do in a city. It's just another way for them to get even more money for their bloated salaries and wasteful spending IMO. Meanwhile the people in Lansing seem to be asleep at the wheel. :(