I am on the board for a small nonprofit that bought a little cinder-block building from the city 10 years ago. Unbeknownst to us at the time, the building also came with two well-established bee colonies (one at each end of the building of course). The north hive is behind the soffit boards on the brick near the roofline with a pleasant metal overhang -- they have become more aggressive and active lately and I believe they're getting ready to swarm. The south hive entrance is over our front door through a mortared patch on old brickwork -- we believe they are throughout the west cinder block wall back as much as 20' to the old abandoned chimney that was probably their original entry point. A couple of years ago we contacted local beekeepers in the hopes that someone would want the colonies -- we thought they were between the metal siding and the block walls. The friendly and helpful beekeepers came to check it out, they estimated there had been a hive in that spot for probably 20 years and broke the bad news that the cinder block are probably "honeycombed with honeycomb". The good news, they have never gotten inside the building, even when the ceilings and interior walls were damaged and falling down.
The city has sent two local bee-men to trap the colonies and relocate them somewhere more friendly than downtown. We had tried to find someone willing before but apparently the city pays better than we do. Anyway, we're happy to have the bees moving somewhere safer for them and for us. We have steadfastly resisted suggestions to kill the bees!!!
Here's my real question --- although I'm sure I'm not really going to like the answers :( -- the wonderful folks from Mid-Missouri Beekeepers Association had suggested that we leave the bees in place and structurally relocate their entrance (think periscope type framing to direct their comings and goings away from the sidewalk and smoking area) to keep the people out of their way. They explained that if we removed the bees without removing the comb/honey, we would simply replace bees with ants and other nasty beasties.[/color]
I prefer bees - but the city insists.
I was prepared to pull off the sheet metal and whatever insulation is behind it, but is there a way to get the 'nests' out without dismantling the cinder block wall?
Can you recommend anything to spray around the area to deter other beasties from trying to find their way in that won't also be harmful to wandering bees?
We know they won't be able to get the queens with the traps (they are saying they expect to get 90% of the colony) and will simply seal up the opening to kill off those that remain behind. Our lack of previous bees on the inside of the building is good because that means they won't find easy egress inside, but we need to be prepared just in case.
I would appreciate insight from anyone who has done a removal of a very old colony from a cinderblock wall --- short of knocking the building down and starting over somewhere new.
A properly done trap out will not leave bees behind AND once the colony is established on the outside, the trap cone should be removed and let the bees rob out any honey that may still be left.
If done properly, when completed, the only thing left behind is wax comb. This comb will either be consumed by wax moths and/or dry out an crumble into dust.
I can only suggest finding a bee remover that can properly do a trap out.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,20301.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,20301.0.html)
Robo is right. Dont let them leave 10% of the bees and seal the entrances. The honey will ferment, it will drip and run, the smell will draw rats, mice, bugs and all sorts of unwanted guests, and it will smell unpleasant to those of you nearby as well.
When a Trap out is done right, the queen will eventually abandon the hive with the few remaining bees she has left.. then the trap/hive bees will rob out the honey left in the building and take it back to "their" hive.. which will be removed when the robbing stops.
The issue with the trap out is that it takes a long time, several weeks in fact, and will require multiple trips to the site. "Some" guys don't want to wait that long or take the extra steps to insure the job is finished before they get their money.
I am not experienced at trapping out or removal, but if they have been there that long I would be afraid that other bees would locate there latter on.
Joe
Probably the best reason for using a professional bee remover, they know how to seal the area properly. Getting the bees out is only half the job. You get what you pay for. Sometimes you end up learning this after paying the second time. :-D
Thanks for your suggestions and comments. We are very fortunate that the bee-man who is heading up this operation is the most experienced in this area and is widely regarded as a bee expert. The bee-boxes (traps) that they've installed will be up for several weeks and they are checking them every day or two. He's hoping to get them all, but I have no doubt he's trying to keep our expectations reasonable.
I am interested in the idea that the bees take the honey with them -- please excuse my inexperience. These colonies have been in this location continuously for probably two decades. I am sure there's lots of honeycomb in those cinder block walls. Are you telling me that the "old comb" doesn't have honey in it (excuse my silliness but honey seems so sticky to me that I can't imagine it being removed).
As I said earlier, the bees have been more active lately and we've wondered if they were ready to swarm. My hope is that they were ready to go on a trip and this trapping process will give them a happy opportunity to relocate to an extremely bee-friendly environment. I hadn't thought that they'd take the honey with them.
Does the empty honeycomb dry up? If they are able to get the queen and the rest of the bees, we will definitely seal up the entry areas and make sure that another swarm doesn't take up residence (I do get that they are attracted by the smell of a previously hospitable location).
I've been envisioning 20 years worth of dripping honeycomb in the cinder block walls --- a definite nightmare of an invitation for ants. If most of that old comb would be dried up, I can feel a lot better about all of this.
This site has been a wealth of information. I did some junior beekeeping in grade school 4-h, but I was only exposed to well-tended hives that were designed for the easy collection of honey. I've never knowingly seen a honeycomb that has had the honey removed by the bees themselves.
One question --- what about the trapping process motivates the queen to leave? I saw a YouTube video where they removed a hive and the hive attacked the queen with the intention of killing her. It was so sad to see the queen suffer from the injuries she'd received.
Thanks!
The bees will actually move the honey from the wall into the new hive set up for them at the trap out location. They will indeed clean it up very nicely, even chewing away wax to get at the last of it if necessary.
Inside the wall, the population will begin to diminish. New brood will emerge, more bees will go out to forage as new nurse bees take over caring for the brood. Those bees will be trapped outside the hive. Less bees means the queen will not lay as many eggs. She will only lay according to how many nurse bees she has to cover those eggs and keep their temperature regulated. She is also going to begin running out of fresh pollen. The combination of those two things will cause an even more rapid decline of bees within the hive. When the situation becomes intolerable to her, she will take the bees she has, and attempt to go elsewhere to re establish, they will abscond.
Once they DO abscond, no more brood is being raised, the brood combs are empty, most of the pollen reserves are gone, all that will be left is the honey. The bees from the hive outside will then be given access, and they will greedily rob every bit of honey they can get.
The comb left inside the wall will become dry and brittle in time, but wont harm anything if left in place.
The smell of the abandoned hive WILL draw another swarm to the location if they can find a way to it, so securing entry points is important.
Leaving 10% of the bees means them dying in the wall, along with any brood they had at the time. This does not smell pleasant. 10% of 60000 bees is still 6000 bees.
I have removed hives that were killed, either by pesticide or because entrances were blocked. Trust me when I say it is not a mess you want to deal with.
Sounds like the fellow you have doing the job knows what he is doing, so I wish you the best, and thank you, for the patience required to trap them out!!
Thank you OldMech --- I'm feeling better about this more every day. The traps have been very active and the bees are somewhat distressed not to be able to get back to their home. We've had a few stings from idiots who have to get a closer look even though the traps are quite a ways overhead. I considered putting up a warning sign, but was advised against it because the building has taverns nearby and the signs might encourage idiots to do even stupider things (i'm not worried about the darwin-award-contestants but I don't want the bees hurt). We've had cooler than normal weather which may be helping, but Dan is talking very confident about the number of bees he's successfully trapping.
At this point, I envision sealing up the areas after the trapping is complete (I think target date is end of June) so make sure we don't seduce a new hive into moving in.
Next summer, after a hopefully cold winter, we'll pull off the deteriorated facia and siding and replace it with a more permanent and attractive weather-proofing that will remain bee-resistent. If the bees have been good about leaving their home, hopefully there won't be too much mess to clean up. All in all, I've come to like Bees more than some people :) So I like Bee-Keepers best of all.
your local fire dept has heat dection gear before a trap out is done I recomend
using that gear. procisley map where the bees are. just incase the trap out fails.
then one would know. just don't go in blind.
jay
jayj200 makes a good point about mapping as an insurance policy