Based on a discussion on another thread about feed stimulate, I am posting Lauri Miller's feed stimulate recipes with her permission. She said to tell everyone "just mention my 'measurements' are approximate. I use a scoop of this and a hand full of that..But they should be close to accurate."
Note in her recipe ..... the ascorbic acid, citric acid and electrolyte. She has tweaked this for a couple of years and has had very good success with it.
12.5 # of cane sugar (1/2 of a 25 # sack of C&H)
about 3 gallons hot tap water
splash of cider vinegar about 2 T
1/2-1 tsp citric acid
1/4 tsp ascorbic acid
1/4 tsp electrolyte/vitamin mix
Mix in five gallon bucket with paint paddle and drill until clear.
Note: I don't really measure anything..just eye ball it. A pinch, sprinkle and a slosh.
She is a queen breeder and is very busy at this time so I will reference you to her fb page where you will find many questions you will have answered. In there you should also find the recipe for her sugar blocks and pollen sub feed. Check out the pictures of her bees coming out of winter in a Northern climate. Along with her magazine worthy photos of queens etc. This gal (respectfully stated) has got it going on :-D
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510?ref=br_tf (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510?ref=br_tf)
Here are her comments on the use of the acids:
>>>>Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bee
Lauri, just curious but why do you use vinegar, and ascorbic acid, and citric acid in the syrup? I don't feed much but I do use apple cider vinegar to adjust the pH.
I don't use the cider vinegar simply as a acidifier, it has amino acids, electrolytes and other nutritional benifets. The ascorbic and citric acids are for vitamin additions and to invert the sugar.
Here is input from JW Chestnut explaining the chemical reaction:
A primary reason for acidifying syrup is to "invert" the sugar. Cane sugar is pure sucrose. Sucrose is a 12 carbon sugar made up of two loosely joined six carbon sub-molecules (fructose and glucose). The acid disassociates the sucrose into the component parts, mimicking the nectar. This is termed by kitchen chemists "invert" sugar, and was used for baking. Most nectars (not all) are slightly fructose rich. The pH of nectar varies widely too (and many nectars, not co evolved with honey bees, have large components of indigestible (by bees) seven and greater carbon sugars. Practically, the sucrose sugar syrup can be inverted with vinegar or any other edible acid, and very little hydrogen ion donors are needed on the order of tablespoon per gallon. Ascorbic acid is made up of glucose (6 C sugar ring) with 2 carbon "tail" and various OH groups tagged to balance the Carbon charge. Many animals and their gut flora can synthesize this from any 6 carbon sugar source. A good reason to use at least some ascorbic acid (or tartaric) in the place of some of the simpler acids is ascorbic is a ring structure, while acetic (vinegar) is a simple unbranched chain. The ring is stable and "recycles" Hydrogen OH groups from solution. This means it is continually recovering donor potential and a little bit can invert an enormous solution much like a catalyst in reaction.
By using all three acids I am feeding a more diverse and possibly more complete mix.
It's the recipe I've used for 3 years
They like it and they do well. I have never fed Fumagillin and have never had case of Nosema.
Overwintered 133 colonies this year and came out with 128..but in acutality I did not lose any colonies. I just lost a hand full of queens sometime early spring and caught the queenless colonies before they dwindled. They were combined with the overwintered queen in the mating nucs in February and March.
Can I attribute my healthy colonies to any one thing? Management? Feeding and nutritional recipies? Genetics? Location? Lack of exposures to commercial crops and other commercial beekeepers?
It's likely a combination of all of those things and other factors I haven't even realized.
Every year that goes by, however, I do give more credit to my genetics.
I've caught swarms near town that were likely from domestic hives and they have not done so well.
They usually go to town for a short time, then fizzled out by the fall without treatments. They were managed exactly the same as my existing hives.
The lack of disease resistance and lack of vigor is is so obvious I usually requeen any collected swarms unless I get them from remote areas.
Lauri's Sugar Blocks:
25# cane sugar
one quart cider vinegar
sprinkle of electrolytes
1-2 T citric acid (Found in your canning dept)
splash of pro Health or other scented essential oil of choice
Mix together about 1/3 of the sugar and vinegar at a time in a five gallon bucket with a large drill and paint paddle mixer. If you try to mix it all at once, you will get uneven moisture distributation.
Mixture will feel very soft, but not wet or sticky.
I use a shallow aluminum baking sheet that fits right into my Cabelas food dehydrator. You can use any size pan you want, but be sure your bricks are no taller than your frame extension under your inner cover.
Here I sprinkled some dry Beepro on the bottom of the pan.Don't do it, it just gets gummy. Sugar will not stick to the pan after it has dried.
Does anyone know what brand of electrolytes she is using?
JC
Per Lauri:
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g24/sc-bee/Beekeeping/2014-05-06_20-31-38_zps91f374b9.png) (http://s52.photobucket.com/user/sc-bee/media/Beekeeping/2014-05-06_20-31-38_zps91f374b9.png.html)
I'm still on the hunt, I've found the citric acid but the ascorbic is escaping me. I have found it as an ingredient in fruit canning items but not just plain jane ascorbic acid. Any suggestions? I'm about sure I can come up with the rest.
Isn't absorbing acid vitamin A? You might be able to just crush some vitamins.
Quote from: GSF on May 11, 2014, 02:22:21 PM
I'm still on the hunt, I've found the citric acid but the ascorbic is escaping me. I have found it as an ingredient in fruit canning items but not just plain jane ascorbic acid. Any suggestions? I'm about sure I can come up with the rest.
I use it in wine making. Try E.C. Kraus
Steve
Detailed thread on lauri's sugar blocks with pic. It's late I did not filter through it but I belive there is a link to where she buys her acids in this thread.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks)
Quote from: RC on May 11, 2014, 09:16:03 PM
Isn't absorbing acid vitamin A? You might be able to just crush some vitamins.
Ascorbic acid is vitamin C. You can buy it in pretty much any quantity as a powder.
I used pure lemon juice as a substitute so I might have got away with it. I'll find me some vit c and use it next time. Thanks.
Correction on above recipe
For 1:1 add 25 lbs sugar...Note the 12.5 lbs of sugar is for a 1:2 ratio Lauri open feeds while working nucs in a dearth to discourage robbing of her queen nucs.
>I'm still on the hunt, I've found the citric acid but the ascorbic is escaping me.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ascorbic+acid
I want to feed some new nucs that will be made with caged queens.
We are short of nectar at present, not zero, but I wish to stimulate the queens to keep them laying.
I have been told that a syrup of 1:1 on a vol:vol basis will stimulate laying.
Please comment with recipes if possible, plus additives you use
If you are looking for large quantities of ascorbic acid.
http://www.bulkapothecary.com/raw-ingredients/other-ingredients-and-chemicals/ascorbic-acid-vitamin-c/?gclid=CIrwivWa5dECFR24wAodrW0MpA
I've used Lauri's recipe now for a couple of years. Something is making my bees go boom
Looking for ascorbic and citric acid Look at the common kitchen condiment "Fruit Fresh" . The ingredients are Dextrose, ascorbic acid, citric acid, and sand. I use about a Tbs FF and a Tbs of apple cider vinegar. This is very close to Laura's formula. I use 3 or 4, four pound sacks of sugar and 3 gallons of water. These amounts are not set in concrete and more or less sugar may be used. This is a very easy to make in a 5 gallon bucket, sometimes I add a little liquid fortifier. I do not treat my ladies at all.
After reading a recent post by MB I am wondering what the Citric and Vinegar are for or should I say necessary if the intent is to adjust the pH. Based on what he stated the ascorbic will do what you need to the pH..
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 10, 2017, 12:52:05 PM
I would have a target of 4.5pH. You will need something to read that. How much will depend on your water etc. Typically I have 7 grams of Ascorbic acid to five gallons of 5:3 syrup...
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=49606.msg432003#msg432003
I am noticing a huge difference in one recipe to another.
Is it a splash of vinegar or a quart?
I tried to make her recipe a few years ago and didn't like the amount of vinegar. It was really pungent to say the least and I opted to only use about one cup. The bees are it, but does it take that much vinegar or am I missing something, because I am seeing others not use that much either?
Quote from: rookie2531 on January 31, 2017, 12:21:59 AM
I am noticing a huge difference in one recipe to another.
Is it a splash of vinegar or a quart?
I tried to make her recipe a few years ago and didn't like the amount of vinegar. It was really pungent to say the least and I opted to only use about one cup. The bees are it, but does it take that much vinegar or am I missing something, because I am seeing others not use that much either?
I believe you are confusing her syrup recipe and sugar brick recipe (both listed above). Her splash in this recipe for sugar syrup is 2T (1/8th cup).
Thanks for clearing that up for me, i see now.
After that first year of adding a cup of vinegar in the brick recipe, i no longer put vinegar in. Just enough water to stick like wet sand. I just thought, even that little bit was making the hives (fumey) hard to explain, but i was afraid they wouldnt like that strong smell and abscond.