What's in your smoker?
According to a training module from ucanr.edu, DO NOT USE CORN PRODUCTS in your smoker. Dried corn products (cobs, husks, leaves) will produce smoke that will kill bees. I'm not sure why I have not heard this before, but you would think this info would be posted where all newbees can find it easily. (maybe include notes in the box the smokers are shipped in even?)
I put the above message in a post on the Beemaster Facebook page and got a lot of response about what all things people use for smoker fuel, but not many seemed to be aware of any dangers of corn products (cobs, husks & leaves) causing any problems.
I did a search on here for "corn fuel" and found one 2013 post with a few guys saying that's all they use and have never had a problem. I have to wonder why the folks at the UC Division of Agriculture and Natural Resources would have such a warning in their beekeeping training module if there were no issues.
So, please don't think I'm beating a dead horse here. In fact, since I'm not in the corn belt, I don't even personally have a horse in this race, so to speak (I use mostly pine for my fuel).
My concern is for others in the biz that may not be aware of this danger - if there is such a danger - and would like to get others ideas and basically just pass along what I've read to spread awareness.
Don't know about corn products as we don't have that product in large quantities - for years I used pine needles like a lot of folk but on a course I did last year the instructors club had done some experiments with an Infra red imager and found pine needles to to be emitting red hot cinders - along with wood shavings and other "hard" material - enough to burn bees. They found the "coolest" and with no cinders was dried grass with a mixture or long and short particles.
I use sugar cane mulch from bunnings its certified organic ok and if you put some gree grass in on the top stops hot embers from getting the bees works for me
Quote from: Wombat2 on January 12, 2015, 07:04:47 PM
Don't know about corn products as we don't have that product in large quantities - for years I used pine needles like a lot of folk but on a course I did last year the instructors club had done some experiments with an Infra red imager and found pine needles to to be emitting red hot cinders - along with wood shavings and other "hard" material - enough to burn bees. They found the "coolest" and with no cinders was dried grass with a mixture or long and short particles.
I still use pine needles - we have lots of Radiata pine (AKA Monterey Pine) here, so I can get bagloads easy enough; I had to go back into a hive recently and my gloves were back in the car, so I gave my hands a good smoking first; I didn't find it at all uncomfortable. I think as long as there's lots of white smoke, meaning it's pretty cool, then it's ok - long slow draws and pumps on the bellows seems to do the trick, if anything, it feels moist, like steam. Short fast and furious puffing seems to give a wispier grey smoke that's a lot hotter, so I avoid doing that.
I've often picked up corn husks and use them in the smoker. With neonics I suppose it's a bigger issue, but before neonics I certainly saw no difference.
When you use pine needles, you want to get it burning at the bottom and then start packing it in and keep packing it so that the material is real tight. this does 2 things, the material makes like a solid coal and burns a long time and the material above it filters the ash out of the smoke and cools it.
When packed properly a pine filled smoker should be able to sit unattended for at least 4-5 hours. Often times they look like they have gone out but will quickly provide full cool smoke when puffed. If it feels light after a couple of hours, add more fuel.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on January 13, 2015, 12:23:36 PM
When you use pine needles, you want to get it burning at the bottom and then start packing it in and keep packing it so that the material is real tight. this does 2 things, the material makes like a solid coal and burns a long time and the material above it filters the ash out of the smoke and cools it.
When packed properly a pine filled smoker should be able to sit unattended for at least 4-5 hours. Often times they look like they have gone out but will quickly provide full cool smoke when puffed. If it feels light after a couple of hours, add more fuel.
Jim
I've recently started using a propane blow torch to light my smoker, just lay a loose handful of needles and twigs in the bottom to begin with and give them a good blast of flame so that they're red-hot incandescent (instant embers) and the smoker's hot too, before packing more in on top. Works every time.
>I've recently started using a propane blow torch to light my smoker
The self igniting ones are the best... just pull the trigger and it's lit...
This is my theory as to why corn has been singled out.
It is my understanding that most corn is now GMO and creates its own BT Toxin to kill the bugs that feed off it. If this is the case and you got some BT corn I can see why the smoket could kill the bees.
Ross
>It is my understanding that most corn is now GMO and creates its own BT Toxin
Yes, but Bt toxin has no effect on bees...
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 14, 2015, 03:18:18 PM
>It is my understanding that most corn is now GMO and creates its own BT Toxin
Yes, but Bt toxin has no effect on bees...
I figure that the pollen collected would not have any BT Toxin, but does any one know if the toxin in the leaves is harmless to bees when burned and released in the form of smoke?
If anything in the corn is dangerous it would be the neonics.
Just because someone wrote it down doesn't mean it's true. Personally I've used corn cobs that I pulled from the 300+ acre field I'm only separated via a one lane road from. I'm certain they were GMO as the farmer doesn't spray anything on the corn other than round up. No obvious impacts on my bees. I'd bet it's a cautionary belief that has no footing in actual scientific findings.
Quote from: D Coates on January 21, 2015, 06:39:35 PM
Just because someone wrote it down doesn't mean it's true.
Amen to that!
>Just because someone wrote it down doesn't mean it's true.
But they didn't just write it down... it was in the internet, so it HAS to be true... they wouldn't be allowed to put it there otherwise would they? Interesting that it is from the University...
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 22, 2015, 09:41:16 AM
But they didn't just write it down... it was in the internet, so it HAS to be true...
The Internet, the greatest brainwashing tool invented since the introduction of television in the 50's...
Oh it has to be true,,,, doesn't it?
:tongue:
I just watched the movie "Simon" with my grandson, who liked it a lot. One of my favorite scenes is where Simon (played by Alan Arkin) is talking to the "TV Cult" people and tells them something that he has said (that was broadcast) and they all agree and say ""Yes. We have seen you on the sacred box, the sacred box with the pictures........" and Simon says, "You mean the TV" and they say "we do not speak its name..." and Simon says "but surely don't believe (and he says something that was outrageously false on TV)" and they say "of course. It was on the sacred box" and he says several other things in similar manner and they all agree it has to be true because it was on the "sacred box".
All people have biases. Universities are made of people, many who carry particularly strong biases. Combine the two an it's a perfect location to appear scholarly and neutral while pushing a bias (whether intentionally or unintentionally). Those biases can become accepted "fact" if no one questions it. The lack of supporting documentation for this claim combined with my personal experiences that indicate otherwise leaves this claim as completely fictional.
Quote from: D Coates on January 22, 2015, 01:34:14 PM
All people have biases. Universities are made of people, many who carry particularly strong biases. Combine the two an it's a perfect location to appear scholarly and neutral while pushing a bias (whether intentionally or unintentionally). Those biases can become accepted "fact" if no one questions it. The lack of supporting documentation for this claim combined with my personal experiences that indicate otherwise leaves this claim as completely fictional.
I tend to agree and wondered about this myself. Which is part of the reason for me starting this thread. In fact, I wrote to said university, the same day I posted this, asking what was the basis of and any supporting documentation for this claim.
As you may have guessed, I have not received a reply as of yet.
So . . . there ya go.
The thing that gets me is that this information is used in a beekeeping training module. (Course: Honey Bees and Colony Strength Evaluation http://class.ucanr.edu/course/view.php?id=8)
Obviously someone had to approve the materials contained in the module and sign off on them before they were made available.
Since I don't personally have easy access to corn products, I don't have any concerns about using them personally. But in the event there is an issue, I'd think others in this community would like to know, so I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion.
The only thing I would remind folks that use corn and possibility caution about is the claim made in the training module, is that "the problem corn products present for bees could take several hours or even days to kill bees".
Take that for what it's worth I suppose.
As mentioned, it's on the internet, so it must be so ... lol
Thanks for the feedback guys.
I have tried a lot of things for smoker fuel. When my 100% cotton blue jeans are no longer good for me. recycled to the smoker. They do get a washing with little soap and a double rense. d2
The corn warning is in one of the supply catalogs also. Can't remember which.
"Perhaps more significant to beekeepers is the effect of some smoke on the bees themselves. This may be true for that from natural products like cedar chips, tobacco and sumac, but is perhaps more important with reference to treated materials producing toxic fumes in the smoker. Bailing twine, for example, may be treated with fire retardant and rat-chewing preventative (creosote). Cotton products might have high levels of pesticides, dyes or other substances incorporated into them. Cardboard, too, can be infused with a wide variety of chemicals that produce toxic or irritating smoke. The history of cardboard boxes if unknown and can be problematic, according to Dr. Frank Eischen at the Weslaco ARS facility, one of Mr. Wenning?s corresondents, who also reported that corn cob smoke killed bees in cage studies, but not immediately, beginning its effects four days after application."
http://beekeep.info/a-treatise-on-modern-honey-bee-management/management-tools/smoking-bees-alarm-and-varroa-control/smoker-fuel-a-neglected-variable/
Quote from: don2 on January 23, 2015, 12:24:42 AM
I have tried a lot of things for smoker fuel. When my 100% cotton blue jeans are no longer good for me. recycled to the smoker. They do get a washing with little soap and a double rense. d2
i made some char cloth from bluejean material and that smoke coming out was like the smoke from insulation when you burn wire, very pungent and better not breath it in, those chemicals in the dyes are toxic.... im just sayin :)
Is there a link for corn warning for the smoker?
Thnx.
Quote from: swarmtrap on February 28, 2017, 09:06:20 PM
Quote from: don2 on January 23, 2015, 12:24:42 AM
I have tried a lot of things for smoker fuel. When my 100% cotton blue jeans are no longer good for me. recycled to the smoker. They do get a washing with little soap and a double rense. d2
i made some char cloth from bluejean material and that smoke coming out was like the smoke from insulation when you burn wire, very pungent and better not breath it in, those chemicals in the dyes are toxic.... im just sayin :)
You have to be careful about which jeans you use. Bee sure to check the tags and only use the ones that say 100% cotton. The other ones are toxic.
I'm a pine needle, grass or leaves guy who lights the smoker with a propane torch. I just found that if you get the pine needles burning good and drop in a couple of small pieces of pine knots that are loaded with resin the smoker will produce some serious cool white smoke for hours. It's a lot like having the smoker loaded with freshly dried pine needles but lasts longer.
I have found straw is doing the best for me. It does burn pretty fast and so I pack it as tight as I can and it doesn't seem to go out. It sorta goes against my grain cause straw is not that cheep but it has become so easy to use cause I always have some near due to having chickens.
Cheers
gww
Quote from: sawdstmakr on March 01, 2017, 12:11:21 PM
Quote from: swarmtrap on February 28, 2017, 09:06:20 PM
Quote from: don2 on January 23, 2015, 12:24:42 AM
I have tried a lot of things for smoker fuel. When my 100% cotton blue jeans are no longer good for me. recycled to the smoker. They do get a washing with little soap and a double rense. d2
i made some char cloth from bluejean material and that smoke coming out was like the smoke from insulation when you burn wire, very pungent and better not breath it in, those chemicals in the dyes are toxic.... im just sayin :)
You have to be careful about which jeans you use. Bee sure to check the tags and only use the ones that say 100% cotton. The other ones are toxic.
the ones i used were wranglers and that smoke would take your breath, no way i would smoke bees with that its seems to me its like basically poison smoke
The smoke from the jeans I am using, 100% cotton, is much easier on my lungs than pine needle smoke.
Jim
I liked using the blue jeans but ran out too soon and found it hard to get enough for my smoker.
gww
Yard sales are a good source.
Jim
Thanks for the advice jim. I didnt know to check tags on jeans. Thought it was all denim. I thought about smoker fuel laat big sale. Parked right next to a guy that was done. Hesaid everything free. He had blue jeans as wide as i could grab. I took them all. Only used part of one so far. Will check labels. Thanks
I learned about checking the tags from the supervisor of the bee inspectors during a question and answer session at one of our bee club meetings.
Jim