If a primary swarm leaves a hive with the old queen and a secondary swarm leaves the same hive a week or so later, will the secondary swarm leave with a virgin queen? Or maybe a couple virgin queens? The swarm queen cells have barely had time to hatch so the new queen(s) mostly likely didn't get mated before they took off. Is my thinking correct here?
You are correct. The secondary swarm is probably the result or a virgin queen who was unable to kill her competition, but was not killed in the fight. She fled, and a number of bees went with her, accepting her as their queen. And yes, there could be more than one virgin queen in the swarm. I have seen it.
It is also said that when a virgin queen leaves the hive with a swarm, she isn't a virgin when they arrive at their home. I have no reference to that, since it dates back to before the internet.
I have never seen it in writing that a virgin queen would leave a swarm to mate. Could be I missed that chapter. d2
The swarms I have picked up with virgins also seem to have more than their fair share of drones. just an observation......
Most swarms don't seem to hang around more than a day as the scouts are looking for a home. Seems like I have been told that new queens go on several mating flights over the course of a few days. I would be surprised if a virgin had time to go off and mate before arriving at the new home. I would think there is too much chance that the swarm would want to leave while she is gone to mate. Then again, the bees constantly surprise me.
Quite often a secondary swarm will leave the hive with more than one virgin queen. Ask Schawee, I think he had 8 or more on one swarm. They remain virgins until the hive is located and then the queens fight it out. The lone survivor then leaves the hive and mates.
The bees keep the queens in their cells until they are ready to swarm. They will then release one or more of them. If they are done swarming they will then allow the queen to fight it out.
If your hive swarmed, listen to hear for piping queen. If you hear them, they are not done swarming.
Jim
The last I heard, the queen FLEW to the new location. I'm not saying she does all her partying in that one flight, but I have read she will party along as the swarm is traveling.
**The bees keep the queens in their cells until they are ready to swarm. They will then release one or more of them. If they are done swarming they will then allow the queen to fight it out. **
:rolleyes: IS that the way of it--please rethink what you have posted--RDY-B
RDY,
I just got done dealing with my observation hive doing just that. They were in swarm mode, noisy and a large ball of bees, football size, hanging outside of the hive. I did a split and moved the queen to a nuc. about 10 days later this hive swarmed and it left the area. I could hear queens piping at this point. A week later it swarmed again and it landed in one of my traps, my wife watched it swarm. I could still hear 3 distinct queens piping. That night my wife and I opened the observation hive to reduce it down to one queen. I had 4 queen cages available. Once it was open and the bees were disturbed enough that they stopped tending the queen cells, while I was removing queen cells as fast as I could with out damaging them, the queens were getting out of their cells on the table and in the hive. I ended up with 10 queens. I marked every one. I put one marked queen back in the hive after taking out all but 2 frames out, to do a through search for any remaining queens. Late that night I saw an unmarked queen in the hive and never found the marked queen. About 5 days later she started laying. 2 weeks later, so many bees were dieing off that this hive started failing and within a couple of days it was dead.
Jim
*The bees keep the queens in their cells until they are ready to swarm. They will then release one or more of them. If they are done swarming they will then allow the queen to fight it out. **
my man your heart is in the right place---but this is simpley not how things work in the hive- the bees dont keep queens in there cells intil they need them to swarm--its quite backwards from your therey its the productin of cells
wheather emergangy --or superceduer of the queen-that is timed to a fined tuned orchastrea-the hives needs-
the post about your observation hive made me think i should get my obseratin hive up and running
but not today --cary on RDY-B
If you say so.
Not what I experienced and saw.
Jim
Taken from the ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture 41st edition pg. 687.
"Queen piping also causes the workers to prevent the emergence of queens during swarming. Piping communicates the number and status of queens and influences queen emergence." -Andy
If the queens are held in their cells, what do they eat? It is known all the food is gone on day 16, or before.
The bees feed them.. I have pulled a frame with queen cells on it, to suddenly have 5 queens emerge at the same moment.. my only explanation was that they had been "held" in their cells.. the chance 5 queens opened their cappings in the same instant would be a coincidence of high magnitude.
I have also watched a documentary or two showing queens being "held" in their cells for a short time...
Have you ever found capped queen cells with "feeder holes" in the capping?
sounds like where another queen got to it and did her job. d2
Quote from: iddee on April 24, 2015, 12:14:56 PM
Have you ever found capped queen cells with "feeder holes" in the capping?
Not yet, but I will pay more attention now that I know that is a possibility. I'd like to get some pics of that.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 21, 2015, 12:52:53 PM
RDY,
I just got done dealing with my observation hive doing just that. They were in swarm mode, noisy and a large ball of bees, football size, hanging outside of the hive. I did a split and moved the queen to a nuc. about 10 days later this hive swarmed and it left the area. I could hear queens piping at this point. A week later it swarmed again and it landed in one of my traps, my wife watched it swarm. I could still hear 3 distinct queens piping. That night my wife and I opened the observation hive to reduce it down to one queen. I had 4 queen cages available. Once it was open and the bees were disturbed enough that they stopped tending the queen cells, while I was removing queen cells as fast as I could with out damaging them, the queens were getting out of their cells on the table and in the hive. I ended up with 10 queens. I marked every one. I put one marked queen back in the hive after taking out all but 2 frames out, to do a through search for any remaining queens. Late that night I saw an unmarked queen in the hive and never found the marked queen. About 5 days later she started laying. 2 weeks later, so many bees were dieing off that this hive started failing and within a couple of days it was dead.
Jim
Wow - that's quite an event to have seen! I had the same experience of checking on a frame of swarm cells to have them all start hopping out at the same time. I've also read somewhere about the bees holding the queens in the cells until they are ready for whatever.
Keeping them in the cells keeps them from killing each other.
Jim
It is said when the bees are undecided which queen they want when there is several, the bees will hold all in the cells till they are all hatched then turn them loose and let the queens decide. This can even hold true after one or more swarms have left, if there is more than one queen and they are not going to swarm again. The workers do not open cells to feed the queen. d2
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 24, 2015, 11:04:00 PM
Keeping them in the cells keeps them from killing each other.
Jim
whats really going on--is yes the bees have the ability to release a queen at a earlier date
from many cells in the hive for various reasons--most are common sense like they know which cells
got feed on the right schedule--superseder versus emergency cells-(bees will make emergency cells
for many reasons -one is to hedge there beets that there will be a virgin to mate and take over the colony)
there have been times when i have bought queen cells to requeen with -or to populate matting nucs
this can be quite a bargain at $3 a cell--so one would think--most times its a 2-3 hour drive for the
cells--when i get to the same spot on route every time they start to hatch from the cells--so now i got virgin queens come out of the wood work--so i dont touch them -just flick them in and hope for the best---
there are ways to slow or excelarate hatching of cells-temp is the man factor--however if the bees want a favorite cell to open when they want it -is they slowly chew and nibble away at the bottom of the cell -it has a rough appearance to it --this is a good way to pick a ripe cell from a hive for splits or any reason --that cell that the bees are helping ever so slowly is the preferred cell by the bees--so the answer to this puzel keeps opnenig more doors
for keepers to become a better part of the hives they manage --remember --you cant decide if you are going to be a good beekeeper because no matter what the bees will decide for you--- :smile:--RDY-B
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 24, 2015, 11:04:00 PM
Keeping them in the cells keeps them from killing each other.
Jim
this is a good opportunity to point out what goes on in the hive when queen cells are present--
when queen cells are hatched -or realesd by the colony its always from the bottom-in other
words the hole the queen crawled out is at the tip of the cell--also when there is battle
between virgin queens-( mated queens dont bother with queen cells) its when a cell hatches -she then tears away at the sides of here sisters cells
and then stings them to death through the sides
so know we can use this as a guide as to what is going on in the hive by looking at the queen cells
and many questions can be answered-was there a new queen --was she the only one that survived
--this all maters -and is a tell tale sighn after prime swarms leave your hive qunlees and it has gone to
become a drone layer(what happen is what everyone says--the clues are in the hive) even further in
the complexity is after a cast swarm--some hives just keep casting the after swarms--whats going on
--the bees will give most obvious answers-- :cool: RDY-B
Rdy b,
So how do you account for a hive that you can hear numerous queens piping for over 10 days and when you open the hive and totally disturb them that 11 queens hatch out, all within about 20 minutes? All that after this hive had the original queen removed and it swarmed 2 times after that and still had at least 11 queens.
Jim
>It is said when the bees are undecided which queen they want when there is several, the bees will hold all in the cells till they are all hatched then turn them loose and let the queens decide. This can even hold true after one or more swarms have left, if there is more than one queen and they are not going to swarm again. The workers do not open cells to feed the queen.
This is just a swarm behavior. Not supersedure or emergency queens. Swarm cells tend to be different ages too, to help with this, but weather often causes situations where they haven't decided if they have swarmed enough yet and they are confining queens saving them for afterswarms.
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#letter9
"The first cell opened on the ninth. The young queen was lively, slender, and of a brown color. Now, we understood why bees retain the female captive in their cells, after the period for transformation has elapsed, it is that they may be able to fly the instant they are hatched. The new queen occupied all our attention. When she approached the other royal cells, the bees on guard pulled, bit her, and chased her away, they seemed to be greatly irritated against her, and she enjoyed tranquility only when at a good distance from these cells. This procedure was frequently repeated through the day. She twice emitted the sound, in doing so she stood her thorax against a comb and her wings crossed on her back, they were in motion but without being unfolded or further opened. Whatever might be the cause of her assuming this attitude, the bees were affected by it; all hung down their heads, and remained motionless.
"The hive presented the same appearances on the following day. Twenty-three royal cells yet remained, diligently guarded by a great many bees. When the queen approached, all the guards became agitated, surrounded her on all sides bit, and commonly drove her away; sometimes when in these circumstances, she emitted her sound, assuming the position just described, from that moment the bees became motionless.
"The queen confined in the second cell had not yet left it, and was heard to hunt several times. We accidentally discovered how the bees fed her. On attentive examination, a small aperture was perceptible in the end of the coccoon which she had cut to escape, and which her guard had again covered with wax, to confine her still longer. She thrust her trunk through the cleft, at first the bees did not observe it alternately thrust out and drawn in, but one at length perceiving it, came to apply its trunk to that of the captive queen, and then gave way to others that also approached her with honey. When satisfied, she retracted her trunk, and the bees again closed up the opening with wax.
"The queen this day between twelve and one became extremely agitated. The royal cells had multiplied very much; she could go no where without meeting them and on approaching she was very roughly treated. Then she fled, but to obtain no better reception. At last, these things agitated the bees; they precipitately rushed through the outlet of the hive, and settled on a tree in the garden. It singularly happened that the queen was herself unable to follow or conduct the swarm. She had attempted to pass between two royal cells before they were abandoned by the bees guarding them, and she was so confined and maltreated as to be incapable of moving. We then removed her into a separate hive prepared for a particular experiment.
"The bees, which had cluttered on a branch, soon discovered their queen was not present, and returned of their own accord to the hive. Such is an account of the second colony of this hive.
We were extremely solicitous to ascertain what would become of the other royal cells. Four of the close ones had attained complete maturity, and the queens would have left them had not the bees prevented it. They were not open either previous to the agitation of the swarms, or at the moment of swarming.
"None of the queens were at liberty on the eleventh. The second should have transformed on the eighth ; thus she had been three days confined, a longer period than the first which formed the swarm. We could not discover what occasioned the difference in their captivity.
"On the twelfth, the queen was at last liberated, as we found her in the hive, She had been treated exactly as her predecessor, the bees allowed her to rest in quiet, when distant from the royal cells, but tormented her cruelly when she approached them. We watched this queen a long time, but not aware that she would lead out a colony, we left the hive for a few hours. Returning at mid-day, we were greatly surprised to find it almost totally deserted. During our absence, it had thrown a prodigious swarm, which still clustered on the branch of a neighboring tree. We also saw with astonishment the third cell open, and its top connected to it as by a hinge. In all probability, the captive queen, profiting by the confusion that preceded the swarming, escaped. Thus, there was no doubt of both queens being in the swarm. We found it so and removed them, that the bees might return to the hive, which they did very soon.
"While we were occupied in this operation, the fourth captive queen left her prison, and the bees found her on returning. At first they were very much agitated, but calmed towards the evening, and resumed their wonted labors. They formed a strict guard around the royal cells, and took great care to remove the queen whenever she attempted to approach. Eighteen royal cells now remained to be guarded.
The fifth queen left her cell at ten at night; therefore two queens were now in the hive. They immediately began fighting, but came to disengage themselves from each other. However they fought several times during the night without anything decisive. Next day, the thirteenth, we witnessed the death of one, which fell by the wounds of her enemy. This duel was quite similar to what is said of the combats of queens.
"The victorious queen now presented a very singular spectacle. She approached a royal cell, and took this moment to utter the sound, and assume that posture, which strikes the bees motionless. For some minutes, we conceived that taking advantage of the dread exhibited by the workers on guard, she would open it, and destroy the young female; also she prepared to mount the cell, but in doing so she ceased the sound, and quitted that attitude which paralyses the bees. The guardians of the cell instantly took courage; and, by means of tormenting and biting the queen, drove her away.
"On the fourteenth, the fifth young queen appeared, and the hive threw a swarm, with all the concomitant disorder before described. The agitation was so considerable, that a sufficient number of bees did not remain to guard the royal cells, and several of the imprisoned queens were thus enabled to make their escape. Three were in the cluster formed by the swarm, and other three remained in the hive. We removed those that had left the colony, to force the bees to return. They entered in hive, resumed their post around the royal cells, and maltreated the queen when a duel took place in the night of the fifteenth, in which one queen fell. We found her dead next morning before the hive; but three still remained, as one had been hatched during night. Next morning we saw a duel. Both combatants were extremely agitated, either with the desire of fighting, or the treatment of the bees, when they came near the royal cells. Their agitation quickly communicated to the rest of the bees, and at mid-day they departed impetuously with the two females. This the fifth swarm that had left the hive the thirtieth of May and fifteenth of June. On the fifteenth, a fifth swarm cast, which I shall give you no account of, as it showed nothing new.
"Unfortunately, we lost this, which was a very strong swarm, the bees flew out of sight, and could never be found. The hive was now very, thinly inhabited. Only the few bees that had not participated in the general agitation remained, and those that returned from the fields after the swarm had departed. The cells were, therefore, slenderly guarded. The queens escaped from them, and engaged in several combats, until the throne remained with the most successful."--Francis Huber, New Observations on the Natural History of Bees, Letter IX
Good reading Michael, TY for posting that.
Thanks Michael.
Jim
Thanks so much, Michael.
Get an observation hive in the living room and let it swarm and you get to watch all of this... :)
I have one :)
My wife allowed me to replace one of the front windows with a hive.. I have not allowed them to swarm, but I have pulled a small nuc off of it with the old queen, and we are watching to see how the developing queen cells proceed.
http://www.outyard.net/observation-hive.html
That is cool, but you will miss most of what happens with three frame thick hives...
agreed.. the price I was willing to pay to have a sustainable OB hive. It has so far, proven to be as manageable as a nuc or standard hive. Well worth the loss of vision beyond the first frame.
Great reading Michael
Nice job Scott. I'm sorry to have to tell you, in a few months, that hive will no longer belong to you. Your wife will probably take control. Mine did after telling me that "your not putting that thing in my house". The good part of that is, she started working with me when I worked on the observation hive and now she often held with my main hives. Last week she even helped wax 30 old plasticell frames.
I built my observation hive with 3 single deep frames. It did not take very long for them to swarm so I removed the side boards and replaced them with wider boards and made it 2 medium frames deep and 4 frames high.
It works much better.
Enjoy your new hive.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 29, 2015, 01:51:19 PM
Rdy b,
So how do you account for a hive that you can hear numerous queens piping for over 10 days and when you open the hive and totally disturb them that 11 queens hatch out, all within about 20 minutes? All that after this hive had the original queen removed and it swarmed 2 times after that and still had at least 11 queens.
Jim
whats going on is cast swarms--after the prime swarm-or a false swarm--as far as the piping goes
i have placed fresh orders of queens at my night stand and the piping means nothing other than something
made that noise--what i see is what the hive has tought me--I AM very successful making a living from the bees as
i see there needs-older and out of date wisdom's are heart warming and deserve there due--however
dont beat the farm on the teachings of years gone by--RDY-B
and the piping means nothing other than something made that noise--
You might want to re think that. Look it up, you'll be surprised how much meaning the piping has.
i see there needs-older and out of date wisdom's are heart warming and deserve there due--however
dont beat the farm on the teachings of years gone by--RDY-B
I guess I am not sure what that means exactly... I still run my hives exactly as my mentor taught me to back in 1977.. maybe that does not qualify as days gone by?
The only major thing that has changed is treating for Varroa.. The minor thing that has changed is that we no longer dump as much stuff into the hive.. the philosophy that we can cure anything with a few chems now seems to be that we can KILL anything with a few chems...
**The only major thing that has changed is treating for Varroa..**
AND-the queen stock itself- swarms from days gone by would fill a whole bushel basket--these days the big question is --is it as big as a football--varroa has set the gene pool back to the starting gate for survivor stock-and this means
what these days--the survivors your trying to place your beats on are from the modern day gene pool-they have been chosen for traits for easy management--less swarming-big clusters-this has changed the whole dynamic of
keeping bees for a( hobby )or a living--yes its nice to watch bees fly in and out of a hive -to your hearts content--perhaps its being robed whats the difference--business is booming or so it seams--there has been so many changes my friend
--I argue a bit but i dont fight it --its here the new breed-i know lot of keepers that cant accept the changes that are
necessary for the beekeeping industry to survive-its already turning towards big ag and outfits like paramount farms acquisition of a large beekeeping outfit-they say they are going to bring beekeeping to a new level--
they have adds and for a position requires college credentials--how many college grads are going to waste that on a beekeeping careers many things are changing ---every warm hearted soul wants to keep the onorable
craft of bees a live-i dont think the industry can reflect on the past for answers in the future--big ag is the
way the change will go-whether hobby keepers can maintain a gene pool that is not polluted or not --the next big catastrophe is how far from to day --who knows the answer to that-RDY-B
>dont beat the farm on the teachings of years gone by--RDY-B
The bees haven't changed.
Quote from: Michael Bush link=topic= :rolleyes:#msg405002 date=1430741882
>dont beat the farm on the teachings of years gone by--RDY-B
The bees haven't changed.
thats a pretty open statement--i wish i could agree that the bees have not changed -from the multiple
forces that guide there existence--these are not pets we are talking about -in fact they are LIVE---STOCK
nothing is in a vacuum my friend -there is change in a continuos motion on this planet--BEES INCLUDED
the need to observe these changes is whats driving the positive quests for the bees benefit :happy:
:rolleyes: RDY-B
What has changed, is the uses of insecticides created by humans. THe bringing together of species that also transmits diseases and pests.. the shipping of bees from one side of the country to the other, which spreads all of those things even worse...
The bees? They are still the same bees. They may have different lines, but they are still kept in exactly the same way that they were thirty eight years ago, with the caveat that once in a while I run OAV through the hives..
What other differences are there? I cant think of many... OH! I know! I can use rigid 2" foam on top of the hive now instead of packing a box with hay for insulation? Does that count as different? We used to use "felt" paper, and now we can only get tar paper.. The smoker used to be made of copper? When the planes sprayed we used to go out to clean out dead hives and restock them with splits... dont have to do that any more.....
If the bees are different, they dont show it in the method I use to manage them. 37 years ago, the bees we had were mutts.. That is the extent of my knowledge, so i cannot go beyond that. German bees and Italians usually. A combination of bees brought over here from... EVERYWHERE immigrants came from... What is it we have today?
I personally have mutts.. they are mutts because they open mate.. I really dont care what bees you have, somewhere in their background they have been open mated, and they too are mutt's. If you have imported queens from Slovenia then you MAY have relatively pure Carniolan bees.. give them a few years and they too will be mutts.
So what was the point you wanted to make about swarms? We dont have many feral swarms any more, the mites have killed most feral hives. They die because of a pest we introduced to them. So in that regard, the swarms that issue are smaller because they come from beekeepers hives.. hives that are being managed to prevent swarming, so I would REALLY hope they were smaller.. It has nothing to do with different bees. I do not believe for a moment that the bees are different. Some of them may have taken a different route to get here, but in the end, they are the same.
*The bees? They are still the same bees. They may have different lines, but they are still kept in exactly the same way that they were thirty eight years ago, with the caveat that once in a while I run OAV through the hives.. *
yes many ways to keep bees have not changed--this is no reflection of the bee itself-
are we waning away from the discussions of what modern day cell size has done to the bee???
is there now no difference between natural comb and the cell size found at over the counter vendors--
there are pages after pages on this site alone that debate the size of the bee --can a larger bee handle
a larger pesticide dose--are the antibiotic resistant stocks putting us on a treadmill -these have all been
talked about in-detail--this just scratches the surface--I cant say for sure but i recall someone referring
to a comment that Brother Adam made in his observation that he saw changes in the stocks of bees--
the comment was they used to be able to get a heather crop from the bees-but as time passed for the bees to make a crop from the same fields they had to move the bees closer
and so it goes it is my opinion that the bee is not resistant to change--perhaps a closer look is in order--RDY-B
** So what was the point you wanted to make about swarms? We dont have many feral swarms any more, the mites have killed most feral hives. They die because of a pest we introduced to them. So in that regard, the swarms that issue are smaller because they come from beekeepers hives.**
yes this is a spot on observation --lets understand that in many places there are not feral stocks just stocks that are repopulating feral locations-from keepers swarms that are of modern stock--
ferals gone and modern stock is a plenty--
queens these days have been breed for a low swarm propensity -one of the ways this has been done is selection of
bees that produce fewer swarm cells--so this has also lead to problems with commercial stock not being able to requeen the colony after a swarm--these days there is a big failure rate for superseder and after swarm queen success--
the problems can be found close to the mother of the hive--queens today are not as queens where 38 years ago-
:smile: RDY-B
I see no shortage of feral bees. People I know who collect them all over the country have observed no difference. Dr. Thomas Seeley who has been tracking the feral colonies in Arnot forest since the 70s sees no difference in the density of feral colonies there. I think you are mistaken.
Then come on over a state Michael.. I can show you a dozen empty bee trees. I got the Room and board.
When I do a cut out that has been IN a cavity for two years I find a lot of DWV and mites.. IF they can grow enough to swarm without treatment it is a surprising thing.. the hives surviving are those that swarm often. the parent hive dies, the swarm lives long enough to swarm again and then dies...
I have been watching the bee trees religiously.. There was a resurgence in the last ten years as the number of beekeepers skyrocketed.. most of those beekeepers are gone now in this area, and since they have given up, so has the number of "feral" colonies...
I have been keeping an eye on numerous hives I thought may be survivors... THey are all dead this spring, including the big hive in the old bee tree on the family farm.. and the winter was mild.... At this very moment, I do not know of a single feral hive in any of the usual/old locations, and I have not even set up my swarm traps this year, they are still sitting in the shed... Rather than catch them, I want them to return to those locations first.
So send some of those Nebraska survivors toward the East!
Quote from: Michael Bush on May 11, 2015, 08:51:37 AM
I see no shortage of feral bees. People I know who collect them all over the country have observed no difference. Dr. Thomas Seeley who has been tracking the feral colonies in Arnot forest since the 70s sees no difference in the density of feral colonies there. I think you are mistaken.
the repopulating of feral locations is a blessing--the stock has changed --yes there are pockets of turain where
bees are not affected at the same rate as other areas--lets be realistic at what point dose the arnot forest represent
the need for bees-or even the benefit of bees--I will leave it to your wisdom on this mater--if we use the arnot forest for the litmus test can you give more information--i would like to know more about why this phenomena is occurring--I will spend some time to investigate the arnot forest--sounds like a good place to live :smile:-but then again so did the fairerseas -- :rolleyes: --RDY-B
http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/arnot/about/2010%20Overview.pdf
found some stuff-is this the right forest that they use for the study of hard wood trees--i had hoped that it was
in europe and showed that old stock is better than most--i would have cheered for that-but perhaps this is just
been a slower rate of polluting the gene pool--some times if the habitat is not beefriedly whats the point
of even setting bees --most would use this as there first consideration to set bees i know i do--can one make a living from bees in the arnot forest---if Im off the mark on this location please let me know-RDY-B
The only real use of the Arnot Forest reference is that it is observed and has been measured and documented over a long period of time by a renowned apiologist rather than anecdotal observations by us mere beekeepers. But I have received many more observations by beekeepers all over the country.
When I bought my farm in 2005, the only time that I saw bees was when the commercial beeks had their hives up against my property. The rest of the year there were no bees. My wife tried growing a garden. Lots of flowers but no fruit. Once I put bees out there she had lots of fruit/veggies. 2 other beeks had bees but they no longer have them.
Now even when I nor the commercial beeks have bees at the farm, I still see bees on the grass seeds and in her garden.
We are also getting a lot more swarm removal requests now in town then we did 5 years ago.
Jim
** by a renowned apiologist rather than anecdotal observations by us mere beekeepers. **
by this i take it that a mere beekeeper cant make a living in the a ARNOT FOREST
but a apiologist can this is heart warming at best--the avenunes are changeing--arnot or not-- :rolleyes:
--RDY-B
wow! this has been an interesting read. i think rdy-b isn't expressing himself clearly toward the end when he get's into the changes of today's bees from the bees of 40 years ago.
i actually think he's right about that. you don't see the old "german" bees that you used to see back then in many places.
i think he's saying we've bred some important traits out of the bees and that the gap created was being filled or partially filled by true feral bees until the varroa came through and decimated those populations.
the feral bees today are predominantly from the stock that has been bred over the last century or century and a half (however long there has been selective breeding of bees in this country now). those bees were bred to not make propolis, not swarm and have a gentle nature among other things and this has taken the overall quality of the bees down a notch or two.
his earlier points i probably don't agree with (or not completely) but i can barely remember what this thread was even about now. i do think he's basically right about the gene pool we work with now being very limited compared to 40 years ago, though.
rdy-b, if i misunderstood you i apologize.
Quote from: 10framer on May 21, 2015, 03:43:08 PM
you don't see the old "german" bees that you used to see back then in many places.
One in ten of my bees from locally bred queens is a black bee.. no stripes. They are descendants, or throwbacks to the bees that I managed for my mentor 30+ years ago. Yes, they are fading. With the loss of feral hives there are less of them now than ever before, but they are still there. You can still get them if you do a little searching.
Quote from: 10framer on May 21, 2015, 03:43:08 PM
we've bred some important traits out of the bees and that the gap created was being filled or partially filled by true feral bees until the varroa came through and decimated those populations. the feral bees today are predominantly from the stock that has been bred over the last century or century and a half (however long there has been selective breeding of bees in this country now). those bees were bred to not make propolis, not swarm and have a gentle nature among other things and this has taken the overall quality of the bees down a notch or two.
"We" the beekeepers, have been selecting for better stock for how long? A thousand years? Two thousand? And you think in the last generation or two we have made a difference? Perhaps I need to buy AI'd queens to see this.. The only major difference in keeping bees I have seen.. (Besides treating for mites) is that packages DIE way more than they used to during winter.
We still have the bees, or the ability to get bees from all over the world.
Itallian, from South of the Alps and North of Sicily.
Carniolan from Slovenia
Russian from Primorsky Territory.
European black bee from Great Britain.
Imported bees from Australia? Buckfast, Starline, Midnight, Caucasion, and Cordovan, as well as VSH breeds and MN Hygienic... The countless lines of survivors available? Last but not least Africanized bees..
From all of those bees, you also have the different LINES of those types to choose from..
In example, Italian bees from Georgia, Texas, Florida, California, Hawaii, etc... IF you want commercial bees.. If you prefer bees produced by more local beekeepers, or just Northern winter bred bees? The options are VAST!
I have not had any difficulty adding new (resistant) genetics to my Apiary.. I bring in resistant bees from different places every year to add to the "mutt" status of my bees.. bees that survive winter just like they did when I was fourteen years old.
I will not and can not argue that there is change coming, but I honestly do not believe it is HERE, or that I will live to see it in my lifetime.
i doubt we started breeding for less propolis until we went to removable combs. before that the hives were pretty much destroyed when the honey was harvested.
if you have the real black bees you're one of the few people i know of that still does. i haven't seen any since the late 90's.
i'm not suggesting that the selective breeding of the last 20 or 30 years has changed the bees. i'm suggesting that the breeding of the last century or two has and that the feral bees that were keeping the old traits in the gene pool have mostly died since the varroa mites showed up.
my bees throw an occasional black queen that produces pretty hot bees too. but the woods aren't full of them in georgia and alabama like they were when i was younger.
i think (but i can't speak for the guy) that's what he was trying to say.
**(Besides treating for mites) is that packages DIE way more than they used to during winter. **
and this itself is a cascade of problems--we talk about the queen freely--she is disposed to the changes
of our breeding programs--but if you take a closer look -it is actually the drones that are the link back to
the old genetics-(gee guys why are the drones always black)-the drone line-unfertilized eggs-pull the genetics from lines that are diluted but -remain
continuos-breeder queens using closed drone populations such as all-breeders use parent colonies for drone population have changed the strengths of the bee--your commercial stock is in fact limited to the drone parent
colonies that are provided for adequate insemination and other traights such as color itself-like the gordovan
italian that dominates the gene pool today -easy to see when gordovans fall away from the Gene that dominates
the change color -happens very fast-the color of the exoskeleton changes(and this is why-she bred-with at least one none gordovan drone -or was superseded -and the new queen is breed to a drone that was out of line)--there are fail safe mechanism that bees have to propitiate the survival of the race--one is not to breed with drones from there own colony--its a very big mixing bowl-- so this is whats happening across the country-
because -haploid and diploid collide -- :rolleyes: --its the very nature of the bee to change for there own survival
-its easy to just keep the blinders on and say thats not what i see-but the bees tell us different- :happy: RDY-B
I'll have to get pictures of my drones.. lik the rest of the bees, they are all colors... There are black drones, but I also have golden drones. and that theory only holds up to the drones father, which would be the grandfather of the other bees. So one generation removed..
I cant argue those points 10Framer. There is a movement to save the black bees, and I have seen them advertised if your interested in getting them again. I have enough of the genetics to keep me happy for quite a while..
When the resurgence of beekeeping began, the number of feral hives greatly increased.. I can only assume that the excitement over saving the bees has died down a bit, because the feral population nearby is also fizzling out.. I didnt even out out swarm traps this year, because I want the swarms to re establish... Of a dozen different locations, I have found only one that survived the winter. So, this will make the third year for this feral hive... If they make another winter, I will put the traps out near them next year.
i used to want them but my throwbacks are hot enough. i lose about a third of my swarms every year. i don't set traps, i just check my home yard every day. most establish where i put them but some refuse to stay. my drones are the same way,
i went through a hive yesterday that is a swarm from my yard and the bees look like pure italians and are easy to get along with but the queen is as black as coal. she's most likely getting a temporary pass. i'm sure once the dearth kicks in they'll be rough as a cob.