Hi Everyone! I'm so excited to be here and learning a new hobby! Here's my dilemma. From everything I've read, I really want to go with all mediums. Keep in mind that I'm 5'2", 120 lbs, and am quite sure I cannot move a 90 lb deep safely. I missed most bee buying deadlines, yeah :cry:, but found someone an hour away from whom I bought a 5 frame nuc which will arrive mid-May. Anyway, it's paid for and no others are available here so that's done. Now herein lies my problem...Please excuse my ignorance at anything I may say wrong. So far I've just read a bunch of books and watched some videos. :smile:...
I want to end up with an all medium 8 frame set-up, using foundationless frames. The frames in the nuc I'm getting are all deeps. So how would I transition from the deep frames to the medium frames? Should I use a deep box to begin with and use medium frames alongside the deeps? Or should I use two mediums stacked on top of each other with the deep frames? Would there be too much room down below? Also, is it ok to just put in foundationless frames? I was reading you should put foundationless frames between two drawn combs to coax them to build straight. Somewhere I read to put one frame between brood but then the For Dummies book said never to put empty frames between brood. I'm so confused. lol When I get my bees, how exactly should I set up the brood box and how do I position the frames without foundation correctly?
What exactly is the bees objective?...and mine? lol Seriously. Do I remove the frames of brood once they've hatched and replace that frame with a medium to build a new comb? Or it seems like they're building from the middle outward and then up, so can I NOT remove any of those early frames? Do they need to stay in place til...? Should I get some wax foundation for just in case? I'm so confused on the frame manipulation aspect of this skill. Are there any good videos out there that you all could recommend that will clarify things more for me?
...Lord, I know! lol I'm sorry for this confusion and hope that someone can understand what I'm trying to say and answer mainly my main question about the deeps to mediums. lol THANK YOU! :embarassed:
Wow - that's a lotta questions! :wink:
I'm a straight noob too, and will be working with a similar situation. A friend gave me all his bee gear when he moved, and it included two deeps. I've got two 5 frame deep nucs coming the end of May, So I'll be starting in the deeps. But all the rest of my woodenware is mediums and I will just the them expand up into the rest as they need it. (Cycling the deeps out when the time is right and then using them for traps or other projects). I figured it best to leave the foundationless alone for the time being 'til I get a bee year or two under my belt. My three topbars started with packages have got me covered with that.
Quote from: Maggiesdad on April 20, 2015, 10:34:45 PM
Wow - that's a lotta questions! :wink:
I I will just the them expand up into the rest as they need it. (Cycling the deeps out when the time is right and then using them for traps or other projects).
Hahaha I know. And those are just the tip of the iceberg. lol
So how exactly DO I cycle out the deeps? And how DO I know when the time is right? lol Would you give me some pointers on that please?
You're probably smart to hold off on the foundationless thing for a while. Maybe I need to consider that and just concentrate on the cycling of boxes. lol I like the topbar hive idea but only found it after I had already paid for the nuc. Otherwise my husband would be building me one of those right now. lol I'm happy to get a nuc though for my first just so they're a little farther ahead.
Take everything I'm telling you with a grain of salt, because I don't have any experience yet. Hopefully some oldtimers will weigh in with the how-tos you need.
In the meantime, I'll be starting my hives as a deep, then adding a med and then another med as the colony grows. That gets me to overwintering with the equivalent of two deeps. Toward the end of winter, the colony will have worked it's way up into the two meds, and when I start my spring manipulations, that's when I pull the deep and continue on with all meds from then on. The old brood comb in the deeps will be for traps and for making up topbar nucs.
I guess you can tell I'm kinda jumping into this with both feet. :happy:
Questions are good!
Some answers here;
http://www.outyard.net/index.html
I would suggest using a Deep box.. 8 frame as you indicated you wanted to start with.. Go ahead and use ONE deep box to get them started. Put a medium above it. Your location says Montana, so you will want to end up with a deep and two mediums for winter..
Come spring, all your bees will be close to the top of the hive. At which time you can take that deep OUT and cut it down to a medium.. donate the drawn deep frames to someone that uses deeps, they will love you for it. Then you can put a new medium on top for them to draw out and your SET with mediums.
You put them in the deep first, and when they have the deep about 70% drawn, give them a medium.. when it is about 70% drawn out, give them another medium.. pay attention to the flow and feed them as necessary to get the frames drawn out AND filled/capped for your winter.
Foundation-less frames...
I use a LOT of foundation-less because I am too CHEAP to buy foundation.. I Have placed an entire box of foundation-less frames on MANY hives. I can say without reserve, that some bees will draw them perfectly, and other bees will make a wonderful comb from one corner of the box across to the other corner completely ignoring your guides.
If you dont mind cutting out comb and rubber banding it in place like it is supposed to be, then by all means, take the chance and give it a try! I prefer to limit the bees ability to make a mess, by using at least three pieces of foundation in a ten frame box. Two foundation-less frames and one foundation. Two more foundation-less frames and one with foundation. Two more foundation-less and one foundation, then ONE foundation-less. This at least limits their cross comb to TWO frames. Better, is if you can install foundation and get them started, well drawn, and growing well, then start placing foundation-less frames in between .
Placing a piece of foundation that is not drawn out into the center of the brood chamber can be seen by the queen as a WALL. I have seen queen cells raised on the other side of such a WALL.. so it is not advised.. However, a foundation-less frame in the middle of a brood nest is an empty space that needs filled with comb. there is no wall. The FASTEST way to get foundation drawn is to drop an empty frame into a brood nest. (so long as there is a flow or they are being fed)
Objective in Montana for both you, and the bees, would be to have the deep, and two mediums fully drawn. Both mediums filled, and capped with honey or syrup. At least a couple of the frames in the deep filled and capped with honey or syrup. Strong numbers, and treated for mites around August, so the winter bees will be healthy and strong to make it through 4 plus months of COLD.
My contact info is on my site. Feel free to use it. I will help the best I can.
PS;
Maggiesdad posted while I was typing, but he has the right idea, newb or not. :grin:
Yes, I also meant to say to cut that deep down to a medium when done with it. Keep the shim left over, you will want it for winter patties, emergency sugar etc...
I was going to post a long post to try to answer your questions but OldMech beat me to it. The only thing I would add is just to say that going foundationless is great but I think it is not a good idea for a newbee just starting out to go completely foundationless from the start. Speaking from experience, my bees did not like to follow the guides when I added my first super. I agree with OldMech in using some foundation as a guide in the supers. It also acts as a ladder so the bees will draw to come for the top of the frames where the guides are. I would not worry so much about removing the deep until next spring. As I see it, the main goal for the first year is to get the bees built up enough to make it through the winter. If you try to remove the deep frames this year it is only going to set your bees back. As Maggiesdad said wait til spring if you want to remove the deep. Or you could just leave it there. That's what I have done.
Just curious. you said a newbee with medium equipment. Or did you get some deeps and change your mind? Did I miss something. You are going to acquire a deep just to make the transition?
It was the nucs in the OP... they are deep. Same problem I had finding nucs here in central VA, and I started looking last Nov. At $220 for a 5 frame deep, somebody needs to be raising some bees here in CVA. :tongue:
Oh well, I haz bees now... question is can I keep them going. :grin:
Agreed.. I make all my nucs in Mediums now. Overwinter mediums and maintain mediums.. it is easy to drop medium frames in a deep, but not so easy to drop the deeps in mediums.
When you have removed the bees from the deeps find a friend that has a table saw and cut then to the depth of your mediums. You can then use the remaining piece to make a Screen Top Board. Almost all of my old deeps are now Mediums. You can also cut the deep drawn frames down to make medium frames, especially if they have plastic foundation. I just add the pins to stabilize them.
Jim
To establish medium hives from your deeps you could use the shook swarm method. There are descriptions of this technique in most comprehensive beekeeping books. I am partial to this method for raising comb honey and have found it works well in the early part of the main honey flow.
The remaining bees and brood in the ten frame equipment could be given a queen and top supered with mediums. Once the queen has moved up in the medium slide a queen excluder on top of the deep to insure she doesn't lay anymore brood in the deeps.
>I want to end up with an all medium 8 frame set-up, using foundationless frames. The frames in the nuc I'm getting are all deeps. So how would I transition from the deep frames to the medium frames?
If what you want to end up with is mediums then from this point on NEVER put a deep frame in any of your boxes, whatever size they are.
> Should I use a deep box to begin with and use medium frames alongside the deeps?
Since you already have medium boxed, and you don't want deep boxes, don't buy any deep boxes.
>Or should I use two mediums stacked on top of each other with the deep frames?
That works just as well as the mediums in the deep box except you don't have to buy the deep box that you later won't want.
>Would there be too much room down below?
Of course. They will build some comb on the bottom of the deep frames.
>Also, is it ok to just put in foundationless frames?
Sure. I would put one in the middle of the brood (between two of those deep frames) and one on each side of the brood (between a brood and a honey frame probably). That will give you the best guides for what you have to work with.
> I was reading you should put foundationless frames between two drawn combs to coax them to build straight.
If you have them.
>Somewhere I read to put one frame between brood but then the For Dummies book said never to put empty frames between brood.
Never is a strong way to put it. For centuries people have put empty frames between drawn frames to get them drawn straight.
"If some of the full frames are moved, and empty ones placed between them, as soon as the bees begin to build powerfully, there need be no guide combs on the empty frames, and still the work will be executed with the most beautiful regularity." --The Hive and the Honeybee by Rev. L.L. Langstroth 1853, pg. 227
> I'm so confused.
Because you keep trying to listen to everyone and they keep contradicting each other...
> lol When I get my bees, how exactly should I set up the brood box and how do I position the frames without foundation correctly?
I would put the deeps in two mediums with both boxes filled out with mediums. So not only do you have one empty medium (in the top box) in the middle of the brood nest, but another below it in the bottom box. etc.
>What exactly is the bees objective?
To build comb, raise brood in it and put honey in it...
>...and mine?
That's for you to say, of course.
> lol Seriously. Do I remove the frames of brood once they've hatched and replace that frame with a medium to build a new comb?
Unless you put them above an excluder the queen will lay them full of eggs before they all emerge.
>Or it seems like they're building from the middle outward and then up, so can I NOT remove any of those early frames?
One solution is cut all of the brood out and tie it into medium frames. Harvest the honey. Cut and tie the bee bread into frames. Be done with it...
>Do they need to stay in place til...?
If you have an excluder, once you have some brood in mediums, put the queen on that above the excluder and the deeps in the two boxes below it (filled out with mediums of course) and when it has emerged pull it out and harvest anything that is in it.
>Should I get some wax foundation for just in case?
In case of what?
The concepts are these:
1) don't put anything in the hive you don't want.
2) don't buy anything you don't want.
3) don't spread the brood nest too thin (one empty at a time in the middle of the brood nest while it's still early in the year)
4) As soon as reasonable get the brood on combs you wish to remove on the other side of an excluder from the queen. (reasonable means they are strong enough they won't get too stressed when you break the brood nest up that much and there are at least one or two mediums with brood to put the queen on)
5) Whatever extra space there is they will build comb on. This can be cut off later and tied into frames or harvested, depending on whether it's brood or honey.
Thank you all so much for the replies!! Your answers give me better ideas of what to do.
OldMech, that's a great site and I like what it talks about. Is that your site?
I whole heartedly agree with what Mr. Bush has to say. I really don't want to put things into my hive that I don't want there. So I think I'll go with that. I'll go with the 5 deep frames that are in the nuc and then will use mediums for the rest, foundationless. Like you, Maggiesdad, I like to jump right in, except I dive head first and don't first test with the feet. LOOOOOL!
Thanks again for your guys' time. I REALLY appreciate that!! ...I'm sure we'll all be getting to know each other a lot better here in the coming time. :happy:
Yes Ma'am it is. I hope something there gives you ideas that will help you!
I just want to get this straight so please tell me if I'm gonna do this wrong. :grin:
When I set up my hive, I'm going to put 2 medium 8 frame supers on top of eachother to make a deep brood box. I will take the 5 deep frames from the nuc I'm getting and put them into the upper box in the middle. Then I will put my other foundationless frames on either side. One on one side, and two on the other outer side. Right? Or, depending on the drawn frames, I could put an empty frame between two of the drawn combs already or will that be too soon? Should I wait a week for that?
Then I will have all that empty space underneath the medium frames in the lower super, so I should go ahead and put medium foundationless frames under those? And then just leave that huge space under the 5 deep frames? What if you suggest I checkerboard them? Put medium frames underneath medium frames checkerboarded in the lower medium? And when they build comb from the deep frames to the mediums, I should cut that away?
Then also, I'm in a situation where I was told to bring a deep brood body (where I'll be bringing the 2 mediums), a bottom board and a cover, and from what I'm understanding, the nuc frames will be transferred into my equipment. It said "No frame exchange" so I was confused at first why I need to bring those items as I thought I was getting a nuc like you read about. lol The gentleman explained it when I called him. Still don't really get it though since it seems like we're exchanging frames. lol So anyway, we will meet at 6 am and then get the bees so when I bring them home, I need to feed them yet, right? Do I do that when I get home around 10 or 11 am or wait til the evening? I plan on putting a shallow on top and using the gallon zip lock bag method. I just make the syrup, fill it into the bag, seal it shut, lay it on top of the upper medium frames and cut a small slit into it, right? How big to make the slit? They can just walk on the plastic over to the slit and drink from that? I read not many drown with this, plus it's cheap, both of which I like. :smile:
Sorry for all the questions! I really appreciate your guys' time to help out a newbee! :cheesy:
dont think so hard :grin: Put the two medium boxes down, and put the deep frames in them. Put the undrawn foundation outside of those. Put an inner over on, (Feeder?) and the tele cover.. chck them in a week.. if they are getting the three new frames under way, meaning being drawn, then put your next box on top of them. FEED. let them get that box well underway... etc....
They will likely build comb UNDER those deep frames because the two medium boxes will be over 13" tall and the frame is only 9.5 or so, but dont worry about it.. when you are ready to remove those deep frames just cut off the excess comb..
This is why I recommended to just use the deep box for this year, so much easier, and it can be cut down into a medium for next year.
You might want to take a small ratchet strap to keep things from shifting on the way home. That is an issue even with the deep and you've added one more place things can slip.
Quote from: OldMech on April 27, 2015, 04:55:04 PM
dont think so hard :grin:
This is why I recommended to just use the deep box for this year, so much easier, and it can be cut down into a medium for next year.
Yes, I came to the realization that I'm over-thinking it. This is just such a new thing for me and I don't want to mess it up. lol I'm so afraid I'm not understanding everything from the books I've been reading but I feel like once the bees get here and I start working with them, things will become clearer. :happy: Hopefully. lol
I really do believe the deep would make things easier, I'm just so afraid that if I needed to, I wouldn't be able to lift it. I mean, there is absolutely no one around here I could ask for help. I could definitely have my hubby build me one if you tell me I would be able to deal with the deep...
Quote from: Michael Bush on April 27, 2015, 05:40:56 PM
You might want to take a small ratchet strap to keep things from shifting on the way home. That is an issue even with the deep and you've added one more place things can slip.
Ok, thank you. That makes sense. Do you think I should put a tarp over the top of them as they'll be driving about an hour in the back of the truck? And I guess I need to bring some grass or something to plug up the entrance during transit?
Oh, and what about the feeding? Should I do that as soon as I get them home or later in the evening?
Ok, thank you. That makes sense. Do you think I should put a tarp over the top of them as they'll be driving about an hour in the back of the truck? And I guess I need to bring some grass or something to plug up the entrance during transit?
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I don't think a tarp is necessary unless it is real cold.
A piece of screen stapled to cover the entrance will work much better than grass.
I would put feed on them as soon as you get the hive put in its place.
I've never used the baggie feeder. I've only used the mason jar with holes in lid over the inner cover.
ONCE moving the bees will more or less stay put.. If you have to stop, keep the engine running so the vibrations remain. It usually is enough to keep the bees inside.. You can also use screen stapled or taped over the entrances. Don't BLOCK the entrances or they may overheat...
The Mediums WILL work.. Remember, that often, the bees will fix MOST mistakes we make with the best of intentions!
Make your choice.. mediums, or deeps, then DO IT! Deal with the problems one at a time and you are likely to be successful! (With a little help from your bees)
Thank you all soooo much!! I feel a lot better now. I'm sticking with the mediums because that is what I want. I will just deal with the rest as things come up. I've come to realize that beekeeping seems to be a lot of trial and error and seeing what works for you and how you like to handle and deal with things. I just need to be patient I think lol I guess that comb they will build underneath will become a latter for them. I guess I'll just need to make sure they don't build all over the bottom entrance and close it off or something. ? lol And I can't seem to find it now, but I think it was MB that said I could cut the comb and fit it into a medium frame after some time? That sounds good too. I'll see how things go and go from there...I need to remember, Patience, grasshopper lol I really really appreciate you all! Thank you all! :cheesy: