Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: JackM on June 16, 2015, 09:33:11 AM

Title: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 16, 2015, 09:33:11 AM
Just watched this video.  Interesting new sub species of Caucausian bees with the longest probuscus of all bees and they do not sting!

I would be interested in getting some......somehow.  Wonder how much they would cost?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vaNmdY-iWk
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 16, 2015, 09:46:40 AM
Interesting I found their site and have sent an email. 

Anyone know if they are legal to import or how to find out if they are legal?
Thx
http://www.goldbee.ge/en/info.htm
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Michael Bush on June 16, 2015, 01:53:06 PM
"Rarely sting" does not mean the same as "do not sting"...

Did you notice that the hives are horizontal?
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: biggraham610 on June 16, 2015, 02:22:22 PM
Quote from: Michael Bush on June 16, 2015, 01:53:06 PM
"Rarely sting" does not mean the same as "do not sting"...

Did you notice that the hives are horizontal?

Have you ever fooled with Caucasians Michael? G
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Michael Bush on June 16, 2015, 04:10:36 PM
Some.  I liked them.  If you don't mind not being able to let go of a frame because it's glued to your hand...
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 16, 2015, 05:22:46 PM
I ordered a package from www.caucasianbreeder.com 3 weeks ago but they haven't arrived yet. They say they have a line from Mr Bill Gaffords bees. I used to have and work Caucasians with Mr Bill Gafford (bolling bee)
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 16, 2015, 05:24:37 PM
they do sting but are generally not aggressive. I like them because they can work flowers the Italians cant work but they do love to put propolis everywhere.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 17, 2015, 08:34:40 AM
Ok need to rephrase to "not aggressive"

In my searching the only USA source seems to have bad Ju Ju.

Yes I did note the horizontal hives and the different sizes and styles of frames too.

BUT how does one preserve the species when they can mate with other drones from any hive?  True the first bred queen will be fine, but any offspring will bring/breed in the local genetics.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 17, 2015, 08:51:33 AM
Do we have any feedback on this breeder noted above?  A website is a website.  Honesty and ability to do what they say is what counts.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 17, 2015, 11:59:50 AM
I don't have any feed back yet other than to say I keep hearing "next week for sure" from him. When I initially spoke with him on the phone, he explained that they had 2 lines of Caucasians; true Caucasians from the country of Georgia and Bill Gaffords line from Alabama. Since I knew Mr Bill and not only helped him work bees on occasion, but also had some of his bees, that was the line I wanted from this breeder. Purely a nostalgic reasoning. However, I don't have them yet.

As for keeping Caucasians, I loved them. They were pretty calm most of the time but they weren't against a little robbing every now and then. They propolis everything and that can be challenging but over all I loved them. Also, since they were the first bees I ever kept, they just hold a sentimental place for me.

As for keeping the line pure... who can say. I know all of the Caucasian bees I have ever had were very dark and easy to tell apart from the Italians. Other than that, I guess its strictly the word of the breeder...
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Eric Bosworth on June 17, 2015, 12:22:18 PM
Interesting... The key for me is how well they do in the winter. From what I understand Georgia has pretty hard winters. They are at about the same latitude as New Yuck. I would think with the Black Sea they would have quite a bit of moisture but it might also keep them a little warmer than the weather in New York. I kind of like propolis so that wouldn't bother me. It would like to see what they are like. If nothing else to add some genetic diversity to the local stock. JackM asked a good question... Is it legal to import them? The other question that is just as important is how much does it cost to import them?

I like the idea of starting with pure stock and slowly diluting that with local stock lines. The problem is that every so often you need to get a few new queens to keep diversity. For that reason I would argue that if you are going to start with new stock it would be best to import them from the source rather than get them from diluted stock that was imported 40 years ago. That said if you can't import them any more then get what you can.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 17, 2015, 01:03:29 PM
These people imported the semen and bred them here for whatever that is worth...

http://caucasianbreeder.com/history.html
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Eric Bosworth on June 17, 2015, 02:06:38 PM
Yeah I checked out their website as well. Just out of curiosity I tried to find import regulations. I came across this.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wps/portal/?urile=wcm%3Apath%3A/APHIS_Content_Library/SA_Our_Focus/SA_Plant_Health/SA_Import/SA_Permits/SA_Plant_Pests/SA_Bees

I understand wanting to keep diseases out. I get that. But just banning outright seems a bit excessive. It seems to me that they had a bit of a backwards approach. They let all sorts of pests in by allowing weak genetics to be imported and then when the pests got here rather than bringing in good genetics they restricted importing. Typical case of government not knowing whats best.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 18, 2015, 08:37:37 AM
Thanks for finding that link, I was pretty confident in today's world that the importation would be difficult at best.  Invasive species is a real concern everywhere and I don't mind  complying. 

Yes, I have written a note to that breeder and had no response.  Makes one wonder with the above statements if they are honest, I noted on their website they are primarily accountants first, beeks second.  I can understand, but at least an answer to an email within 24 hours in the week should be minimum.

Myself I would be interested in the 'original' strain.  I have no interest in trying to breed, too darn old.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 18, 2015, 09:22:32 AM
Imm seeing a trend with their slow communication. I asked for an update on my package 2 days ago. No response yet...
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: deknow on June 18, 2015, 09:41:53 AM
There are extensive discussions on BS about this business/website and it's relationship to "long creek apiaries" which seems to have been a long running problem for customers.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: rober on June 18, 2015, 09:45:16 AM
everything I've read says the dept of agriculture has pretty much banned the importation of bees. they've even made it extremely difficult to import sperm for laboratory research. while the site says importation is restricted it's near impossible to get a permit. I've been waiting 3 weeks for a reply to an e mail from this breeder.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Eric Bosworth on June 18, 2015, 11:11:31 AM
Quote from: JackM on June 18, 2015, 08:37:37 AM
Thanks for finding that link, I was pretty confident in today's world that the importation would be difficult at best.  Invasive species is a real concern everywhere and I don't mind  complying. 

Yes, I have written a note to that breeder and had no response.  Makes one wonder with the above statements if they are honest, I noted on their website they are primarily accountants first, beeks second.  I can understand, but at least an answer to an email within 24 hours in the week should be minimum.

Myself I would be interested in the 'original' strain.  I have no interest in trying to breed, too darn old.

I agree that invasive species are a real concern. My issue is that a blanket ban on importing is not the best approach to the problem. A better approach is to allow importing with inspections. By banning importation completely there is more incentive to bring things in illegally. It seems kind of strange to me that they talk about the decline of the honey bee and rather than try to bring in new genetics to help address the problem they make it difficult to import new genetic strains.

As far as not getting a response... It does raise a few questions... I would be interested in the original strain as well.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 18, 2015, 04:18:02 PM
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on June 18, 2015, 11:11:31 AM
Quote from: JackM on June 18, 2015, 08:37:37 AM
Thanks for finding that link, I was pretty confident in today's world that the importation would be difficult at best.  Invasive species is a real concern everywhere and I don't mind  complying. 

Yes, I have written a note to that breeder and had no response.  Makes one wonder with the above statements if they are honest, I noted on their website they are primarily accountants first, beeks second.  I can understand, but at least an answer to an email within 24 hours in the week should be minimum.

Myself I would be interested in the 'original' strain.  I have no interest in trying to breed, too darn old.

I agree that invasive species are a real concern. My issue is that a blanket ban on importing is not the best approach to the problem. A better approach is to allow importing with inspections. By banning importation completely there is more incentive to bring things in illegally. It seems kind of strange to me that they talk about the decline of the honey bee and rather than try to bring in new genetics to help address the problem they make it difficult to import new genetic strains.

As far as not getting a response... It does raise a few questions... I would be interested in the original strain as well.
I agree completely.  But the morons need to do the bull pooh to make the money for only themselves.  It is a royal shame.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: rober on June 19, 2015, 11:31:09 AM
I checked into getting caucasion bees 20 months ago & had no luck. I hope this site is legit as I am very interested in trying some of these bees.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 20, 2015, 09:21:03 AM
I contacted the folks in Georgia Russia.  They are more than willing to ship. 

As beeks we should lobby for a means of bringing this strain, and possibly others of merit into the country.  Possibly the only way will be with semen and a very selective breeding process that cleans out the native genes.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 21, 2015, 08:50:56 AM
I dropped in email of inquisition about how many hoops it takes to even get considered to import to the Dept of Ag.  ......
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: KeyLargoBees on June 21, 2015, 11:43:48 AM
With Florida's freaky agricultural laws I am almost scared to make a similar inquiry LOL...Hard to imagine how the USDA will treat this with all of the recent fluff about "invasive" species. So many of the recent agricultural and entomological disasters were perpetuated by importation of species and sub species that at the time were thought to be "good ideas" and "beneficial". Will be interesting to see how they reply.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Eric Bosworth on June 21, 2015, 06:52:43 PM
 That is because government knows best. A friend of mine is a retired teacher. Before he retired he was complaining about administration. He summed up all aspects of government when he said "I just don't understand how half a dozen administrators can possibly think that they have more collective knowledge than 130 some teachers... Extrapolate that to state Ed in Albany... How can a few hundred people think they have more collective knowledge than however many thousands of teachers in New York State? On the federal level it is ridiculous."
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: ggileau on June 22, 2015, 08:17:11 PM
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on June 21, 2015, 06:52:43 PM
That is because government knows best. A friend of mine is a retired teacher. Before he retired he was complaining about administration. He summed up all aspects of government when he said "I just don't understand how half a dozen administrators can possibly think that they have more collective knowledge than 130 some teachers... Extrapolate that to state Ed in Albany... How can a few hundred people think they have more collective knowledge than however many thousands of teachers in New York State? On the federal level it is ridiculous."

Don't get me started :angry:
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: JackM on June 23, 2015, 08:34:12 AM
Ya, we don't need to get on politics.  I didnt' hear back yet, but I did get a short note from the breeder in the US.  Still says 2-3 weeks out on queens.  Told him to get hold of me when ready to ship a pair.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 23, 2015, 01:43:55 PM
I finally got my package of Caucasian bees in from Winters Apiaries in today. Nice package... No queen. No queen cage.. nothing... I am waiting on him to call me back...  What do I do with a new package of bees in a hive with no queen? Im worried they are just going to migrate over to my other hive...
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Michael Bush on June 23, 2015, 02:34:33 PM
Importation by someone somewhere is how we got SHB, Varroa, Tracheal mites, Nosema ceranae, AHB and a host of viruses...  Judging by when it turned up, probably also wax moths...  Even Sue Cobey, who has some contacts in the world of the USDA etc. can only get frozen drone semen imported and even that has to be inspected very closely to insure we don't bring in a new virus...
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 23, 2015, 04:30:15 PM
He never called me back so I stuck a frame of brood from my Italians in the new hive to maybe make a queen. so much for getting a hive of Caucasians...
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 23, 2015, 05:52:11 PM
He finally called me back... sending me another queen
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Hi-Tech on June 23, 2015, 06:14:12 PM
He asked me to go back into the hive one more time to make sure the queen cage hadn't come unattached and fallen into the bees. Now, I have been a beekeeper for many years and have never dumped a queen cage into a hive and not noticed it. Besides, I have been in that hive since I dumped them and didn't see it. So, being a man of my word and never believing that I am above making a mistake, I went back for a third look in that hive. well.... there it was at the bottom of the hive, pushed up in a corner. I felt like an idiot...

So, overall... my experience with Winters apiaries was good. Not awesome but good. It took a while to get the bees and he is slow to reply to emails and calls but he did reply and even offer to replace my queen if I couldn't find it.

Would I buy from him again? I think so. I have heard bad things about him but he did OK by me.

So, I now have a hive of Caucasians....
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Eric Bosworth on June 23, 2015, 09:40:51 PM
I would like to know how they winter. Unfortunately the mobile app doesn't show location. Where are you?
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: biggraham610 on June 24, 2015, 02:15:58 AM
Hes in Kentucky Eric. I would also like updates on the Caucasians. They peaked my interest a little last year. G
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: Eric Bosworth on June 29, 2015, 01:01:47 PM
I just want winter hardy stock. Sure, there will always be winter losses. But there is also something to be said for genetics that are known to survive harsh winters.
Title: Re: Gray Caucausian bee's
Post by: biggraham610 on June 29, 2015, 02:46:31 PM
Without question. I love my open mated local mutts. G