I know some of you good folks use foundationless frames, as I am. Question for you: How do you help them build the brood chamber in the second year?
Last season I had several first-year hives that wintered with a deep on the bottom, and a honey super on top. Going into spring, I wanted them to draw out another deep for brood, to become a double-deep with medium supers on top. I tried putting an empty deep on the bottom of the hive, and taking down a frame of honey/pollen. After the flow started, I waited for a few weeks to check them. I put nothing on top, because I wanted them to fill and work their way down, drawing comb below. This is what they do in nature. Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box. I removed the box on some of the hives, and supered with a medium. Others I left in place. Eventually, a couple of the hives did build out the bottom box.
Some might ask why I didn't put the empty box between the medium and deep. Well, I didn't want to break up the brood chamber too early, or separate the brood from honey stores. Others may ask, why didn't I just throw the empty box on top of the hive. Well, I feared that the bees would go up there and draw out a deep box full of honey and drone cells. If they did that, what would happen when I lowered it to be a brood chamber? Tons of drones? Am I wrong?
How do you get them to expand the brood chamber in a foundationless setup? What works for you?
If you want to expand the brood chamber, the best way I have found is to insert a couple of empty frames in the middle. In your case, you could remove the outside two or three frames and put them in the bottom box. Insert the empty frames in the middle of your second box separated by drawn frames. As long as there is a flow going on they will draw out those empty frames in short order. In a week or two you can repeat the process. Eventually, you will have both boxes fully drawn out. This works very well getting the bees to draw out straight foundationless frames. This is because they have a guide on both sides and bee space is more important in the brood chamber.
And empty deep is a lot of space...If you want them to draw it needs to be full of bees.
Consider a having long hive to keep opening up your broodnest, adding one and two frames at a time. Then pull your resources out as you need them.
I am looking at going foundationless ( making up 100 frames with foundation is getting to me after the first 30!) My question is - if you put empty frames in the brood box do they draw the right size cells? I have noticed that in the honey supers damaged or empty frames get drawn out as drone cells - does that happen in the brood chamber as well?
I really appreciate the feedback. Good to hear what is working for you folks.
Wombat2, when I start a swarm or cutout in a single deep, they build what they want. Plenty of brood cells. As I give more room above, they tend to draw larger cells for honey and drones.
Quote from: Wombat2 on November 10, 2015, 07:56:54 PM
My question is - if you put empty frames in the brood box do they draw the right size cells?
To the bees, every cell that they draw is the right size. :wink: The bees like a certain amount of drone cells. If you have a hive with all foundation, they will either make drone cells between boxes or rework the foundation to drone size(typically around the edges). If you drop a foundationless frame in the brood nest, they will often draw the first one almost completely drone cells. After they have enough drone cells the rest will be worker cells. I just move the one with drone cells to the outside edge of the brood nest and leave it there. When they are done raising drones they will fill it with honey.
QuoteWell, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box. I removed the box on some of the hives, and supered with a medium. Others I left in place. Eventually, a couple of the hives did build out the bottom box.
They build what they need. If you didn't have a good flow or they were not raising enough brood, they would not expand. It's a tricky thing to judge when they are ready for more room. It comes with experience and learning the forage of your area....and even then you can get it wrong. ;-)
>How do you help them build the brood chamber in the second year?
Not much you can do that doesn't interfere with the natural timing of things. In the middle of the spring buildup moving into swarm season I would put empty frames in the brood nest from time to time. These will be drawn nice and straight if the combs they are between are nice and straight.
>Last season I had several first-year hives that wintered with a deep on the bottom, and a honey super on top. Going into spring, I wanted them to draw out another deep for brood, to become a double-deep with medium supers on top.
What you want and what the bees want are not always the same thing...
>I tried putting an empty deep on the bottom of the hive, and taking down a frame of honey/pollen. After the flow started, I waited for a few weeks to check them. I put nothing on top, because I wanted them to fill and work their way down, drawing comb below. This is what they do in nature. Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box.
They build comb when they have nectar coming in and no where to store it. Otherwise they do not build comb.
>How do you get them to expand the brood chamber in a foundationless setup? What works for you?
I don't worry about it. It's not my job to make them do anything...
Some really good advice posted above.
As stated, if they dont think they need it they wont draw it. Cao is right though, rotating in some empty frames in their brood chamber will make them "want" to get it drawn... Depending on your flow you may want to feed that hive or hives that you want drawing comb. Feed slow, meaning three holes in a jar lid so they get syrup, but they dont get it FAST enough to backfilll the brood chamber.
Adding a frame ith foundation into he middle of the brood chamber is bad, dont do it, it can be seen as a barrier rather than an opportunity.. an empty frame for foundation-less isnt a barrier to them.
I have never had to place the empty box on the bottom to get it drawn, perhaps the small upper entrances I use makes a difference?
Quote from: cao on November 10, 2015, 11:53:58 PM
Quote from: Wombat2 on November 10, 2015, 07:56:54 PM
My question is - if you put empty frames in the brood box do they draw the right size cells?
To the bees, every cell that they draw is the right size. The bees like a certain amount of drone cells. If you have a hive with all foundation, they will either make drone cells between boxes or rework the foundation to drone size(typically around the edges). If you drop a foundationless frame in the brood nest, they will often draw the first one almost completely drone cells. After they have enough drone cells the rest will be worker cells. I just move the one with drone cells to the outside edge of the brood nest and leave it there. When they are done raising drones they will fill it with honey.
Excellent explanation. Each hive is different. I have some that like two sides worth of drone cells, and I have some that like three full frames of drone cells. I have had hives in the past draw drone comb OVER plasticell... At which point i just stopped worrying about what "THEY" wanted and lt them have at it.
The age of the hive and their status will also determine if they make drone cells... If you keep nucs and use them for resources to strengthen your other hives, they will usually make VERY nice worker comb. Newly established hives will make mostly worker comb until they feel they are at a point of "contentment" with their numbers and resources, then they will start the drone comb.
The only real difficulty with using foundation-less is if you start from scratch, and have no drawn comb to rotate. Given the box of foundation-less frames, they can draw comb across the frames from corner to corner, so dropping in about three pieces of foundation spaced among the empty frames will help guide them. It will also help limit any cross comb to two or three frames, making it easier to fix or remove.
Let us know how it goes!
I have not read all the responses yet so forgive me if someone said this already but I think the issue is answered in the question itself. Bees do what bees do. It is not like training a dog. If the goal is brood nest expansion then help the bees do it their way. I never add a box and expect them to use it as a brood nest. If I want to expand the brood nest with another box I alternate empty frames with full frames in the 2 boxes.
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on November 11, 2015, 09:20:36 PM
I have not read all the responses yet so forgive me if someone said this already but I think the issue is answered in the question itself. Bees do what bees do. It is not like training a dog. If the goal is brood nest expansion then help the bees do it their way. I never add a box and expect them to use it as a brood nest. If I want to expand the brood nest with another box I alternate empty frames with full frames in the 2 boxes.
Well I thought the most natural way, or "their way," to allow them to expand the brood nest was to put the empty frames underneath the current brood nest. I have done many cutouts. In those cutouts that are vertical, the bees always start building comb at the top and work their way down. They build new brood comb below. That's why I thought adding the space underneath was more natural.
And I did this in time to catch the spring nectar flow. The new swarms I was catching were busy building out comb in their boxes, while the 2nd year colonies filled the medium on top, and some of the frames in the deep.
Sounds like the best suggestion is to go in every couple of weeks and add a couple of empty frames in the brood area. Time intensive. Guess I'll just have to do it next season. Thanks again for all the replies.
You are right, in nature they "usually" build from the top down. They do not like having empty space above the brood chamber. They tend to fill this area up to ensure they have food above them to move up into during the winter. If you watch the progression of a natural hive, they build down and move the brood chamber down into the lower section as they build. We tend to want clean comb so we add space above the brood nest in the hopes they do not move up into the honey super.
Jim
Chux - great initial question. I'd been wondering about that, too. The discussion has been really interesting.
Jim- thanks for that explanation of why we put supers on top for the bees [as opposed to what is easier for us]. That makes perfect sense now.
Your welcome.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on November 13, 2015, 01:14:37 PM
You are right, in nature they "usually" build from the top down. They do not like having empty space above the brood chamber. They tend to fill this area up to ensure they have food above them to move up into during the winter. If you watch the progression of a natural hive, they build down and move the brood chamber down into the lower section as they build. We tend to want clean comb so we add space above the brood nest in the hopes they do not move up into the honey super.
Jim
Well said.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on November 13, 2015, 01:14:37 PM
You are right, in nature they "usually" build from the top down.
Perhaps another aspect worth mentioning is that in nature bees build continuous comb from the top of their cavity to just above wherever they judge the bottom of that cavity to be.
But when foundationless frames are being used the situation is somewhat different. Bees will usually draw a comb to within a beespace of the bottom bar (if one is in place) and then stop. Sometimes they will make attachments to that bottom bar, but not often.
So - there then remains a beespace, then the bottom bar, then another beespace, and then the depth of the top bar of the frame below that. All of these distances combine to create a barrier which the bees will certainly cross in order to build comb within the lower frame, but they will need far more of an incentive to do so, than if this barrier did not exist. Queens in particular do not like crossing (what seems to them to be) large comb-free distances.
This dislike can be used to create queen excluders, and was a method employed before relatively modern metal or plastic queen excluders became fashionable, and is still a method used for queen exclusion in the Bienenkiste hive design.
LJ
Little john, I have not even considered this. Most of my frames do have this gap on the bottom of the comb. I suppose this does form a type of barrier in the "bee brain." I'll keep this in mind. Thanks.
Every couple of weeks rotate your frames over one space when the bees are in the building mood. The middle, or primary frames are much more likely to be connected to the bottom of the frame. Pull the left side frame, move all frames over one space and put theleft frame in on the right side. It happens slowly enough that the brood has emerged and the brood area shifts over one frame... stop by late summer so they can put reserves along the sides.
Quote from: Michael Bush on November 11, 2015, 09:50:07 AM
>How do you help them build the brood chamber in the second year?
Not much you can do that doesn't interfere with the natural timing of things. In the middle of the spring buildup moving into swarm season I would put empty frames in the brood nest from time to time. These will be drawn nice and straight if the combs they are between are nice and straight.
>Last season I had several first-year hives that wintered with a deep on the bottom, and a honey super on top. Going into spring, I wanted them to draw out another deep for brood, to become a double-deep with medium supers on top.
What you want and what the bees want are not always the same thing...
>I tried putting an empty deep on the bottom of the hive, and taking down a frame of honey/pollen. After the flow started, I waited for a few weeks to check them. I put nothing on top, because I wanted them to fill and work their way down, drawing comb below. This is what they do in nature. Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box.
They build comb when they have nectar coming in and no where to store it. Otherwise they do not build comb.
>How do you get them to expand the brood chamber in a foundationless setup? What works for you?
I don't worry aboutnot my job to makthem it. It's do anythinge ...
After 3-5 years you will appreciate the wisdom of these words. Until then, continue to direct the bees to carry out your instructions :grin:
Quote from: Old Blue on November 16, 2015, 02:01:54 AM
Quote from: Michael Bush on November 11, 2015, 09:50:07 AM
>How do you help them build the brood chamber in the second year?
Not much you can do that doesn't interfere with the natural timing of things. In the middle of the spring buildup moving into swarm season I would put empty frames in the brood nest from time to time. These will be drawn nice and straight if the combs they are between are nice and straight.
>Last season I had several first-year hives that wintered with a deep on the bottom, and a honey super on top. Going into spring, I wanted them to draw out another deep for brood, to become a double-deep with medium supers on top.
What you want and what the bees want are not always the same thing...
>I tried putting an empty deep on the bottom of the hive, and taking down a frame of honey/pollen. After the flow started, I waited for a few weeks to check them. I put nothing on top, because I wanted them to fill and work their way down, drawing comb below. This is what they do in nature. Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box.
They build comb when they have nectar coming in and no where to store it. Otherwise they do not build comb.
>How do you get them to expand the brood chamber in a foundationless setup? What works for you?
I don't worry aboutnot my job to makthem it. It's do anythinge ...
After 3-5 years you will appreciate the wisdom of these words. Until then, continue to direct the bees to carry out your instructions :grin:
Yeah. .. well said. .. like I said it's not like training a dog.
Yeah. .. well said. .. like I said it's not like training a dog. ................- more like herding cats
>>>>>After 3-5 years you will appreciate the wisdom of these words. Until then, continue to direct the bees to carry out your instructions
Well, I'm not trying to make them follow my instructions. I'm trying to give them what I think they want and would prefer. A longer continuous comb in the brood chamber. I was just trying to figure out the best way to help them get where they want to go. I could level the same charge against most beekeepers that you just leveled at me. In nature, the majority of colonies I have seen prefer long continuous comb with varied cell sizes in strange places. We make the bees do things our way when we give them foundation (which I don't do). We make them do things our way when we give them nothing but medium boxes and frames to work with, as do some beekeepers I greatly respect on this forum. We make them do things our way when we give them deeps for brood chamber, as I do.
I know you guys mean well, but your way isn't the only way, just as mine isn't. We learn from one another. I appreciate your wisdom from experience. Keep bringing it. I think the best beekeeping method will be one that tries to encourage and help the bees do things their way.
using mediums or deeps, or long hives, or warre hives etc isnt making the bees do anything, any more than when they choose to build in a six inch rafter space, or a ten inch gas tank. We "offer" a happy medium that will be convenient for us AND for them. They really dont care if you use mediums or deeps. In fact I know an elderly fellow that uses 8 frame shallows so that he can continue to keep bees despite a bad back and encroaching age, and his bees do fine... And your right, there are more "ways" than you can shake a stick at. The bottom line is, do you have live bees in the spring? If you answer yes, then your doing something right, no matter what "way" you use! To me, part of the fun in in seeing and reading about how everyone else keeps their bees, and learning what I can from them......
130 years ago, CC Miller published 50 years among the bees, and in his Intro, he wrote something that is timeless when it comes to beekeepers;
One morning, five or six of us, who had occupied the same bed-room the previous night during the North American Convention at Cincinnati, in 1882, were dressing, preperatory to another days work. Among the rest were Bingham, of smoker fame, and Vandervort, the foundation mill man. I think it was Prof. Cook who was chaffing these inventors, saying something to the effect that they were always at work studying how to get up something different from anybody else, and, if they needed an implement, would spend a dollar and a days time to get up one "of their own make" rather than pay 25 cents for a better one ready-made. Vandervort, who sat contemplatively rubbing his shins dryly replied: "But they take a world of comfort from it." I think all bee-keepers are possessed of more or less of the same spirit. Their own inventions and plans seem the best to them, and in many cases they are right, to the extent that two of them, having almost opposite plans, would be losers to exchange plans.
In visiting and talking with other bee-keepers I am generally Prejudiced enough to think my plans are, on the whole, better than theirs and yet I am always very much interested to know just how they manage, especially as to the little details of common operations, and occasionally I find something so manifestly better than my own way, that I am compelled to throw aside my Prejudice and adopt their better way.
//end
Has anything really changed?
oldmech, that is a great excerpt. Thanks so much for sharing. Even as things change, so much does stay the same. My last post was in response to a couple of statements which I interpreted as accusations that I am trying to make the bees do what I want them to do. My point was that we all do this to some extent, no matter what type of beekeeping we are doing. If you use all medium, you are making the bees draw medium frame comb. You take away the option to build whatever they want by limiting the amount of open space without hindrance. This isn't a bad thing. Anymore than my initial question about trying to give them more room for a brood chamber with a deep. I'm trying to figure out how to help them do what they want to do, but a couple of replies seemed to be saying that I am trying to force the bees to do something unnatural. I guess I was just venting. Been a frustrating morning. Sorry if I came off in a negative way, folks.
Hi Chux
I didn't mean for my post to come across as an accusation and should have done a better job of quoting MB. Please accept my apologies.
Regarding brood nest expansion, I too have had great success in encouraging brood nest expansion and the drawing of comb by putting empty frames in the middle of the brood nest. I have gotten the impression that they will draw much more comb and do it more quickly if it's in the middle of the brood nest. I think keeping the brood nest open like this is also a great way to prevent swarming.
There's lots of good beekeepers here to learn from and I tip my hat to them cause between them and 5 or 6 years of my own misadventures that's how I've managed.
It sounds like your a good beek and I wish you the best.
Old Blue
Where the state is planning to tax, fine, regulate, fee, permit and destroy beekeeping as we know it, cause their just so darn sure someone might be having fun in an unregulated manner. Where else but..............................
Kali-bone-ya
Old Blue, I was a little too touchy the other day. Thanks for your replies. This is indeed a great and encouraging place for us to learn from one another.
The lazy me is dreading the time and energy it will take to go to multiple yards and dig into the middle of at least 30 hives every couple of weeks. Really thinking about just leaving that medium and deep at the bottom, and adding empty frames in the center of the medium.