I have had deadouts before, but never like this. This hive was active 8 days ago, when I treated with OA vapor. Today it was warm enough for activity. Seeing none, I listened while tapping the side - silence. I opened the hive to find exactly three - 3 - dead bees. A fair amount of stores on hand, though I can see in various locations where cappings had been chewed and honey removed recently. Have not seen any robbing activity, at least while I've been at home. This is the hive referred to in another post, where I found no dead mites after the OA treatment. Anyone heard of OA treatment causing bees to abscond? Can't imagine them wanting to move this late in the season... I am mentoring a new beek locally who reported to me the same phenomenon two weeks ago with her hive.
Stumped me. I'm curious what others think happened.
I don't like those chemicals!
I should have noted that I treated another (larger) hive at the same time, and it is fine.
It seems like every time I turn around on fb, someone's hive absconded after OV treatment.
MT Bee Girl - stop turning around (lol)
This is my second year treating with OAV. Right now I'm sitting at 20 hives, last year 14, sold around 15-20. No absconding.
tjc - did the other beek do the OAV? How much are yall using per super? I've heard of folks using too much and killing a bunch but not absconding. I'm not saying it's not possible.
You are not alone. This seems to be a phenomena that is hitting the NorthEast (maybe other places as well) this year. I have heard of at least a dozen or more cases this fall and have personally inspected two of these hives. Purely speculation on the part of a few well respected beekeepers, but it is believed they are absconding do to some type of sickness (perhaps a virus) that is being vectored by varroa. Most of these hive have plenty of capped honey, but no nectar. Theory is that the remaining bees gorge on the nectar and flee and join nearby colonies. Our experience is that there is some tie into commercial bees. All the cases where either new purchased bees or in yards that were in contact with bees from a commercial source. We have not seen any cases in beeks that have not bought in purchased bees or been in areas where purchased bees were.
I lost several hives in the spring and a couple during the summer. One day they were full and a week later they were empty with honey remaining. This after surviving winter. Most were from swarms from commercial bees that are placed next to my farm, stones throw from my property.
I suspect it is more genetic. When it warms up in the spring and there is a lull in the flow they up and move out to find new food sources just like they did in Africa.
Jim
Good points Robo & Jim.
Quote from: Robo on November 17, 2015, 08:16:55 AM
You are not alone. This seems to be a phenomena that is hitting the NorthEast (maybe other places as well) this year. I have heard of at least a dozen or more cases this fall and have personally inspected two of these hives. Purely speculation on the part of a few well respected beekeepers, but it is believed they are absconding do to some type of sickness (perhaps a virus) that is being vectored by varroa. Most of these hive have plenty of capped honey, but no nectar. Theory is that the remaining bees gorge on the nectar and flee and join nearby colonies. Our experience is that there is some tie into commercial bees. All the cases where either new purchased bees or in yards that were in contact with bees from a commercial source. We have not seen any cases in beeks that have not bought in purchased bees or been in areas where purchased bees were.
I know a couple of commercial beeks in my area who have lost a significant number of hives with the same symptoms. No bees. Stores remaining. Some of the remaining hives in the yards were inspected. Inspector found low mite counts in most. One or two where the mite count was bordering needing treatment. He speculated that the lost colonies probably had high mite count and contracted some newer diseases for our area. I heard mention of Kasmir disease???? I don't think anybody knows for sure, but this is going on at least as far south as eastern NC, this fall. Anybody south of here seeing the same thing?
Quote from: GSF on November 17, 2015, 06:15:33 AM
tjc - did the other beek do the OAV? How much are yall using per super? I've heard of folks using too much and killing a bunch but not absconding. I'm not saying it's not possible.
No, the other beek had not treated. Both of my hives this year came as packages this past spring from the same source. I used 2 grams OA for the 4 medium hive, and 1 1/2 grams for the 3 medium hive. In retrospect, the abscond must have been underway when I treated. There were bees in the hive that day (flying), but when I checked for mite drop the following day, there was not one mite, which I thought strange - now I guess they must have been all gone by that next day.
Quote from: tjc1 on November 15, 2015, 06:57:37 PM
I have had deadouts before, but never like this. This hive was active 8 days ago, when I treated with OA vapor. Today it was warm enough for activity. Seeing none, I listened while tapping the side - silence. I opened the hive to find exactly three - 3 - dead bees. A fair amount of stores on hand, though I can see in various locations where cappings had been chewed and honey removed recently. Have not seen any robbing activity, at least while I've been at home. This is the hive referred to in another post, where I found no dead mites after the OA treatment. Anyone heard of OA treatment causing bees to abscond? Can't imagine them wanting to move this late in the season... I am mentoring a new beek locally who reported to me the same phenomenon two weeks ago with her hive.
Just to add to Robo's thoughts on this
Additional conversations with other berks in Hudson Valley and northern ny the following
Up north monster honey flow this year, low stress on bees, full stores no dead bees behind yet unhatched pockets of brood.
Hudson Valley drought stress lots of feeding 2.1 mites treated early Sept and follow up treatment if needed. We used formic flash 65%. All hives were booming in population and had lots of stores and pollen. For my hives demise was within a week from full to barren. Robbing did not happen at all in these hives save a few yellow jackets. Of my 5 hives lost 3 had new commercial queens the other 2 were 2nd year from same yard nucs made last july.
First 2 times I thought they swarmed from possible over feeding (did not seem honey bound as brood area was still without nectar/ sugar syrup.)
Next 2 made me wonder what is going on. Toxins or virus?
Did local highway dept spray for loosestrife and other invasive species
New chemical cocktails or was this a new virus.
Hives that were requeened had some issues earlier in summer such as failing queen not brooding up and general lack of production.
Deformed wing virus was not evident in deadouts. No massive die off in front of hive area.
Did a noses spore count on wax in hive and ceramae was present.
Possible combination of events if localized such as just my yards ok no big deal,but having reports of this in several counties around my location with similar circumstances makes me wonder.
Common theme was large populated hives with stores. Larger foraging numbers leads me to think it is a toxin. Many house plants are heavily embedded with insecticides at growers. Was thinking perhaps fall plants such as mums could contain a clue.
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
I just mentioned this on another thread here. I sold some hives to a person this last spring/summer. She called and was wondering if I had any idea why 3 strong hives would just up and leave behind capped brood and plenty of stores. She said there wasn't the first dead or live bee anywhere. That's the first I've heard of in Alabama.
I sent comb/brood samples to the Beltsville ag lab and will report any findings here.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on November 17, 2015, 01:03:32 PM
I lost several hives in the spring and a couple during the summer. One day they were full and a week later they were empty with honey remaining. This after surviving winter. Most were from swarms from commercial bees that are placed next to my farm, stones throw from my property.
I suspect it is more genetic. When it warms up in the spring and there is a lull in the flow they up and move out to find new food sources just like they did in Africa.
Jim
Swarming generally leaves behind bees and q cells.
Absconding all go.
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
In addition to the two commercial beeks I know who have seen colonies disappear, a couple of backyard beeks in my local club have reported the same symptoms between late summer and early fall, in several of their hives. Strong colony seems to abscond. No bees or dead bees left. Leaving behind plenty of stores.
one theory that has been proposed in the northeast is that the flow was so good hives became honeybound and left no room for the queen to lay. One very experienced beekeeper noticed this issue, spun out 4 frames of honey, and put empty (but built out frames) into the brood chamber to give the queen room to lay. He didn't have any problem with absconding, but many other experienced beekeepers did. This was in the South Shore of Massachusetts. Just a theory. It's tough to tease out these things, but the honeybound theory makes sense given how good the flow was this year.
I live south of Boston and had 2 hives that absconded, both wintered over from last year.
Two weeks prior to the event the hives were given OA treatment with huuuuuge mite
Drop off. Not honey bound as there was plenty of space for laying. I do not live near any
farms or commercial beekeepers. I harvested about all honey left by the wanton bees.
I suspect for me it was the mite infestation and I need to be more proactive
with more frequent treatments even if not efficient with plenty of brood in chamber.
I have seen some trucks in my neighborhood and theft reports reporting only shop vacuums stolen,
Could it be possible a thief(s) are stealing the bees and reselling them in the spring?
Possibly a conspiracy by left wing zealots looking to make big pharma look bad. (lol)
Quote from: KPF on December 03, 2015, 12:45:03 PM
one theory that has been proposed in the northeast is that the flow was so good hives became honeybound and left no room for the queen to lay. One very experienced beekeeper noticed this issue, spun out 4 frames of honey, and put empty (but built out frames) into the brood chamber to give the queen room to lay. He didn't have any problem with absconding, but many other experienced beekeepers did. This was in the South Shore of Massachusetts. Just a theory. It's tough to tease out these things, but the honeybound theory makes sense given how good the flow was this year.
Makes you wonder...Do many of you good folks see honey-bound colonies absconding in the fall? I would expect the queen to shut down early and for them to start eating through the stores instead of leaving at that time of year. It seems counter-intuitive for the colony to kill themselves in order to get out of a honey-bound situation. But maybe not. The bees always find ways to surprise us.
I know. I'm a first year beekeeper and it seems bees are too smart to commit suicide because they stored too much honey. Why not just dump some of the honey overboard? But in our club the number of abscondings is huge, and a lot of them were hives managed by very experienced beekeepers. Same story. Tons of honey. No bees. Important lesson. Some of our members try to limit disturbing the hive in fall as the bees get ready for winter. Limited to no inspections in late fall if the hive seems to be hoppin'. In most years, this practice probably is not a bad thing, but in a year with a monster flow, it could be devastating if the hive is honeybound and you don't know it. That's assuming the honeybound thing is the real reason. There are so many variables at play with these pesky bees it's mind numbing. But I guess that is most of the fun.
This hive was by no means honey bound; the bottom-most medium was almost empty comb except for some pollen stores.
Quote from: KPF on December 03, 2015, 12:45:03 PM
one theory that has been proposed in the northeast is that the flow was so good hives became honeybound and left no room for the queen to lay. One very experienced beekeeper noticed this issue, spun out 4 frames of honey, and put empty (but built out frames) into the brood chamber to give the queen room to lay. He didn't have any problem with absconding, but many other experienced beekeepers did. This was in the South Shore of Massachusetts. Just a theory. It's tough to tease out these things, but the honeybound theory makes sense given how good the flow was this year.
The two failed hives that I inspected had plenty of room and were not honey bound. There was some dead hatching brood (heads out, tongues extended). Most had DWV, but there was very little sign of varroa on the bottom boards.
My hive also had patches of brood, with some just hatching as described, and some of the pupae I pulled out had DWV.
Report back rom Bethesda lab: wax moth and varroa present; test for foulbrood was negative.
It look as if my second hive, which was a barn-burner all season and is full of honey, is also now empty of bees... What the heck is going on?!
Both of my backyard hives absconded last week. Both were hale, hearty and active local mutts with plenty of honey and stores a couple of weeks ago, yesterday they were both bone dry with wax moths moving in. One hive was six years old and very strong, the other six months from hiving from an open-air colony, doing quite well.
Too much shade has always been an issue in my yard and this summer my neighbor put in a "privacy" fence about ten feet to the west of the hives, so no more late afternoon sun. SHBs were worse than ever too, but with oil trays under the hives and traps, the bees seemed to be managing them. This summer was different than recent years. Much rain and there never seemed to be a real "flow", never saw them coming in with heavy loads as in past years.
I'm pretty bummed about it. My mission was mostly to help the local bee population, so I hope they're happy where ever they are. Not sure if I will try to start up again or not.
Sundog,
Don't give up. It has been a bad year for Florida. Commercially Florida had 0 production this year. My bees made very little honey this years and I lost a lot of hives.
Keep your head high and get a few traps ready for the spring.
Jim
sawdstmakr, are you a commercial beekeeper? Did they really have a bad year?
Quote from: Acebird on December 11, 2015, 09:10:08 PM
sawdstmakr, are you a commercial beekeeper? Did they really have a bad year?
No I am not a commercial Beek.
I read an email on the report for USA honey production. It said FL production was "insignificant, basically 0"
Thanks for the support, Jim.
...and I was just building them a brand new SBB. (Bummed) That makes three bye+byes counting my KTBH a couple years ago, and they were so nice.
There was much rain here last summer, washed away much pollen. Maybe I'll rebuild in the spring. I never have trapped a swarm though not for not trying. I currently know the location of three feral hives, but they are beyond my reach. Two are in trees, one is an open-air about two blocks away.
Thanks for the swarm trap reminder, I feel better now.
NP Sundog.
I have been there. Just keep on Beekeeping. :grin:
Jim
Curious, for those who have had healthy hives abscond this Fall/early Winter, were your hives within flight distance of Soy or Corn fields?
Quote from: John Schwartz on December 16, 2015, 08:34:18 AM
Curious, for those who have had healthy hives abscond this Fall/early Winter, were your hives within flight distance of Soy or Corn fields?
The two hives I inspected, and at least 6 others that I know of were not near corn or soy (no commercial agriculture of any kind)
Quote from: Robo on December 16, 2015, 10:50:37 AM
The two hives I inspected, and at least 6 others that I know of were not near corn or soy (no commercial agriculture of any kind)
Thx, Robo.
Nor mine - only commercial ag within three miles of me is cranberries.
Quote from: tjc1 on December 16, 2015, 11:30:28 PM
Nor mine - only commercial ag within three miles of me is cranberries.
Thx, TJC1
Quote from: John Schwartz on December 16, 2015, 08:34:18 AM
Curious, for those who have had healthy hives abscond this Fall/early Winter, were your hives within flight distance of Soy or Corn fields?
Nothing commercial nor soy or corn within reach.
Quote from: Sundog on December 18, 2015, 12:57:51 AM
Nothing commercial nor soy or corn within reach.
Thanks, Sundog!
Quote from: John Schwartz on December 16, 2015, 08:34:18 AM
Curious, for those who have had healthy hives abscond this Fall/early Winter, were your hives within flight distance of Soy or Corn fields?
I understand your curiosity, and share it. If the hives were close to such crops, we can say, "hmmm." MAYBE there is a connection. Maybe not. Good to keep track and look for similarities.
Quote from: chux on December 19, 2015, 01:45:04 PM
Maybe not. Good to keep track and look for similarities.
Right on. :)
Update - my second hive, which was a huge, booming hive all season - has also disappeared. Again, full of honey (about 100lbs) and a handful of dead bees on the bottom screen. Curiously, on these bizarrely warm days that we have been having here in the northeast, there have been some other local bees visiting this hive - though they have taken none of the honey...
Lost my one an only give (first hive)same situation
I just joined the dead hive club. Interesting thing. I found my queen with about 40 bees in the top honey super. That's it. The rest of the hive empty. About 100-200 dead bees on the bottom board, so no idea what happened. A lot of club members in my area (Southeastern Massachusetts) have had deadouts recently.
I'm a first year beekeeper and both hives failed, the first in summer, the second this month. There's always next year. April is just around the corner.
I feel your pain. I lost all hives the last two winters. Lost 2 of 4 this fall and have fingers and toes crossed that the last two make it this year [Russian and Russian X queens]. The milder winter does not bother me at all. This is the end of my 4th year and I've never had a great honey harvest. It would be nice to have a year where I feel like I'm doing something right. It's easy to get discouraged so it is nice to hear other beeks say to take heart.
I'm not trying to minimize anyone's pain. I've lost hives too and I know it hurts. It especially hurts if nothing can be learned from it. Can those who've lost hives tell me what their mite counts were or when they treated? The OP mentioned OV treatment but what treatments/monitoring had been done prior? I used to lose hives in circumstances similar to those described but that was before I treated for varroa consistently. Of my 2 apiaries, one is surrounded by commercial agriculture the other is within a mile of it.
I had a few hive beetles but did not notice anything else. I did not treat for mites. I'm of the opinion that bees and mites are both bugs and the fewer chemicals I expose my bees to the better. I'm open to oxalic acid, though. That seems relatively nontoxic. If I continue to lose hives I'll probably ditch my cumbayah notions of being chemical free, but for now I'm trying to limit exposure to any chemicals. There are so many variables in this bee thing that it's tough to know what the true culprits are, but I have a whole set of equipment ready to go for next year. I will get more bees, and do it again, and hope for the best. When I "graduated" from my club's bee school I thought I was well prepared for my first year. I soon realized bee school only scratches the surface of everything you need to know. There is so much information that even after a 4 month course you don't really have a full appreciation of the complexity of this stuff.
I treated all my hives with Oxalic Acid Vapor and retreated 10 days later.
I have not had any bees abscond since the treatment this past fall.
I treated back in March of 2015 and had 2 hives abscond in July but I think the small hive beetles contributed to that.
All in all I have had very good results using Oxalic Acid Vapor.
Now I have heard other beekeepers around say they've had hives abscond.
I am in central Arkansas.
OP responding to D Coates: I had previously treated with formic acid (MAQS), wanting to stay with organic material rather than pesticides. It seemed to work well the first uses, but when I lost all of my hives last winter, I wondered if the fall MAQS treatement had anything to do with it, so thought I'd try the oxalic vapor, as it seemed really benign. In retrospect, I probably waited too long to treat this year. These were both new packages in the spring, had done well over the summer (one phenomenally well), and late in the summer suddenly started showing mites. I thought I'd wait to treat until most of the brood had hatched out before winter. That my have been too long to wait - maybe the bees got overwhelmed and were ready to throw in the towel (abscond) by the time I did treat...
I agree - there are so many variables and unknowns with the bees that it's hard to sniff out what the problems are/may be. I had great success my first three years as a beek, and now it seems impossible to keep them going...
Quote from: sawdstmakr on December 14, 2015, 12:19:17 PM
NP Sundog.
I have been there. Just keep on Beekeeping. :grin:
Jim
Guess who finally caught a swarm. Small but gentle, hived into a 5 frame nuc and taking syrup. Also bought 3 pounds after joining the local association.
Is that a kitty litter box on the tree? That would be a hoot if it was.
Yep...looks like a Tidy Cat Litter Pail.....thats a new twist on a swarm trap LOL.
Congratulations Sundog. You cat them. :grin:
Jim
Quote from: GSF on April 12, 2016, 07:25:24 AM
Is that a kitty litter box on the tree? That would be a hoot if it was.
It is a Tidy Cat pail. Waxed a piece of used comb inside the top, lemon grass oil in a straw ala Capt44, 3/4 inch hole at the bottom. Hangs so nicely from the palm tree. I will be putting it up again as soon as I relocate the first bunch.
Also saw bees visiting another trap today, so I may have another small swarm. Thinking of maybe combining them and wondering how best to do such a thing.
Having fun again...
:cool:
Notice all the bees returning to the tree where the pail hung.
Glad to see that you are back in the bee business. :grin:
Ok Sundog, I'm going to try and up you one. I'll be hanging an old slop jar w/lid (aka night pot) in a tree.
Oh lord..... I think this needs to transition to a new thread ...and needs to be stickied.....and then Pics of all the outlandish things people can use as swarm traps ;-)
Hung it back up earlier today and had two scouts checking it out within minutes.
Could it be the bright yellow color helps? I had a drab green nuc hanging a few feet away for years and never saw a bee on it.
:cool:
"Could it be the bright yellow color helps?"
That would bee neat if it turns out to bee true.
Jim
All my swarm traps are green....so let mew know if I need to repaint ;-)
Quote from: KeyLargoBees on April 20, 2016, 05:59:54 PM
All my swarm traps are green....so let mew know if I need to repaint ;-)
Your traps seem to work as well as any. I would stick with what's working for you, and yes, I see the wink.
So what's the best way to combine several swarms? I'm in the city and two hives is my limit, besides that is all I want.
Side note... haven't seen any eggs yet anywhere, getting concerned.
Can a swarm that moves into a trap be queen less?
I have caught two queen less swarms but they were both shaken off of bushes into boxes and later combined...I thought if a swarm went to a bait hive or trap they were queen right...at least at the time they moved in.