We had a beautiful 70 degree day, so I thought I would go check some hives. Found 2 hives had absconded, and I say absconded because there were very few dead bees in the hives.
The first one had 2 dead bees on the bottom board and had been gone a while because you could tell that most of the upper brood box had been robbed out of honey. last time I checked them was a little over a month ago and the upper supper was about 90% full of honey. The second hive was about the same story. 2 months ago full upper brood box of honey only the one seemed to have recently has left. about 5 dead bees on the bottom board, a few dead brood that died while uncapping them selves and most of the upper brood box still full of honey. The third hive in this location seemed to be doing fine and still had the upper brood box about 80% full of honey. Is there something I am missing here. I have been racking my brain trying to figure out if I did something or did not do something I should have and I can't figure out why in the middle of a mild winter with a nearly full box of honey they would just up and leave. No mass of dead bees in or outside of the hive so I don't think they died. Any ideas or things I might have missed. Also I should mention that neither hive had Wax Moths or small hive beetles when I found them.
Any capped or open brood?
Very Few Capped brood, A few died emerging, no open brood or eggs that I noticed.
There have been several beekeepers in in central Arkansas that has had bees Abscond this winter.
I lost several hives last year to absconding. The same symptoms as yours. I think it is African genetics. When the food is scarce, they move to find a new food source.
Jim
Ideano, seems like it is becoming quite common. I've heard of even more since my last post on here;
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=47755.0
I lose at hive which had about 65 lbs of honey in the top 10frame deep box. I really think I didn't realize the queen was failing and as the bees got old they started to die off.The hive had very few bees in it except robbers had started as they found the hive weak.I didn't see the bees leave but they are gone!I think failing or bad queens is one major cause we are having losses.
Sounds all too familiar - lost my two hives in November with exactly the same details...
So here is a thought......with the advent of the digital "information age" and people from all over the country/world instantly sharing their experiences.....and an increase in the number of neophyte beekeepers across the country is it possible that between those two factors we are just hearing about a greater number of absconds...while the statistical percentage of hives under management which abscond stays relatively close to the norm?
I know when you lose a hive (I lost one last week and since I have 4 thats a 25% loss) you question yourself and your practices....but is it really any worse now than it has been?
Or possibly as Jim states all southern feral colonies and feral drones who mate with swarm and with backyard queens are at some level "africanized" so the swarminess and the absconds might just be a combination of factors....at least in the south.
QuoteWhen the food is scarce, they move to find a new food source.
Jim
I wonder then if I had open feed sugar water &/or pollen would this possibly lowered the likely hood of the absconding? but then I run the risk of them over filling the brood chamber and the queen having no place to lay and then swarming. Everyday I realize how much I don't know :smile:
Quote from: KeyLargoBees on February 02, 2016, 01:36:35 PM
So here is a thought......with the advent of the digital "information age" and people from all over the country/world instantly sharing their experiences.....and an increase in the number of neophyte beekeepers across the country is it possible that between those two factors we are just hearing about a greater number of absconds...while the statistical percentage of hives under management which abscond stays relatively close to the norm?
I know when you lose a hive (I lost one last week and since I have 4 thats a 25% loss) you question yourself and your practices....but is it really any worse now than it has been?
Or possibly as Jim states all southern feral colonies and feral drones who mate with swarm and with backyard queens are at some level "africanized" so the swarminess and the absconds might just be a combination of factors....at least in the south.
That's a good thought and probably part of it.
My club in Eastern Massachusetts had a TON of abscondings (few dead bees, empty hive, a super or more of honey in the hive). The experience level of the beek was varied. Lots of newbies who installed packages in spring got whacked but so did some very experienced beekeepers, one of whom has an apiary of just local survivor stock. It could just be random variation. Our Fall was very warm. (Dec was hottest on record), so maybe that was part of it. Maybe they got confused and thought it was swarming season. Seemed to be no correlation between beeks who treated for mites and those who didn't. No one can figure it out. I thought my hive was fine as I saw bees going in and out. When I checked it, I had only a small cluster of bees in the top honey super. (Maybe 50 or so max). To top it off, a marked queen was still there. I pulled the queen out just before a major cold snap (< 15 degrees) and gave her to a club member who could winter her over. Two deeps, which had been half packed with honey and brood in early October, were bone dry. All of the experienced beeks in the club say this is very unusual. A big mystery.
Jeff,
With 3/4 of all commercial hives going to California and a large portion of those over wintering in Florida, the genetics are spread around the country every year.
Jim
I'm only in 4 years as a beek, but this is the first I recall of hearing so many reports of fall/winter abscondings (my own two hives among them).
You know, we ought to cut out a section of brood comb and a handful of dead bees and mail to the state bee testing lab. Find out what the real cause is. Beats guessing by a long shot.
All Y'all that haven't cleaned up yet can still do so. See if it's some new killer disease, poison, some old disease, or just stupid bees. There has to be a reason, lets find out and post it here.
Anyone able to hook us up with address to send these to?
Thanks!
For future reference, go to my site, to the "Pests" section on the left to "Enemeies of the bees" and click on that. Then go to the left and look for AFB and click on that. It will take you to here: http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#afb Click on "Beltsville Lab" in the fourth paragraph. Which will take you here: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7473
I think the communication part of this is big. It might have been a problem for years, but people are just starting to talk about it and pass the news along.
For me having hosted 3 feral colonies for several years I never thought about or worried about anything, they were just always there. If I wanted some honey I would smoke them a little, find the best looking comb and cut it off.
After moving one of them into a hive and having it abscond a couple months later I started to read and learn all the things I should have done to keep them there.
Pests, genetics, food sources, and general conditions could all be factors and if any way possible more information should be collected on the specific hive. At the same time you need to take a look from 30,000ft and look at the big overall picture.
I had my 2 strongest hive abscond in November. it was warm last week & I decided to put candy boards on any hives that needed them & while checking I found 2 more empty hives. all of these hives had 40 or more #'s of honey & brood. the ones last fall had 2 or more frames of brood. I've been checking locally & watching other forums & this is widespread. something else that was unusual last fall was that I got several calls for swarms in September & October. could these have been some of those absconded hives??? the most common guess as to the cause is varrora mites. one of the hives here barely had the 100 bee minimum for testing so I sent them off to the usda lab. there were no varrora or tracheal mites but a nosema spore count of 5 million per bee. I've been asking this question for 2 years now & cannot find the answer. how many nosema spores are too many?
Quote from: HillBilly2 on February 03, 2016, 06:43:03 AM
You know, we ought to cut out a section of brood comb and a handful of dead bees and mail to the state bee testing lab. Find out what the real cause is.
That's one approach, certainly. Another approach would be to investigate why this
isn't happening in other regions - and then try to establish what differences exist. I haven't heard talk of this happening in Europe, for example, so the idea of Africanised genetics sounds quite plausible.
You see, it may not be a disease or poisoning at all - if it were, then you'd expect to find a carpet of dead bees in or around the otherwise empty hive. But this doesn't appear to be the case - just an empty, abandonded hive.
The primary drive of all animals is to survive - and if the weather has been unusually warm, but without the raised amounts of food coming in which would normally accompany such warm weather - this might well be stimulating a dormant trigger to re-locate to wherever food is likely to be more plentiful, and as such is perfectly natural and healthy bee behaviour - for those genetics.
LJ
Thats what I am leaning towards LJ....and as another poster stated with all of the migratory trucking of bees across the US there has to have been some spread of Africanized genetics...not enough to noticeably change the temper of the hives maybe but the genetics are still there in some smal percentage....Other than a truly mean hive that is suspected of being AHB who really gets the genetics tested of what are considered "average" hives?....if we don't test we will never know ;-P
I sent samples to Beltsville -this year, no disease, varroa present. Last year,besides the varroa, two hives showed Nosema spores, one hive high and one low count.
We got an update from our state apiary inspector that absconding is widespread in the Northeast. They are guessing the mild winter combined with poor mite control is the culprit. (Higher temperatures allowing the mites to thrive) They noted, however, that this behavior seems to also happen in hives treated for mites. This is only a preliminary report and more may come out later.
I like the idea of not treating but I'm considering using oxalic acid next year.
Well I lost another hive to an abscond over the weekend so my losses are now at 50% for "overwintering".....was the second hive with the poorly performing queen that I was planning on replacing as we got a tad later in the spring. They were languishing and had been reduced from a 10 frame box to a NUC and were only partially covering three frames so its not a huge loss. Queen was active and moving around and visible on inspections just laying very spotty for the past several months (she was a late summer supercedure queen). The other hives never really stopped laying at some level and the two hives I have left are building up for spring already.
C'est la vie....still have the two boomers and the Owl Box cutout so things are looking OK for the spring ....I saw lots of drones in the Owl Box as I cut them out and am seeing drone cells capped in the other two hives so its coming up time for things to really get rolling.
Quote from: KPF on February 05, 2016, 11:20:27 AM
We got an update from our state apiary inspector that absconding is widespread in the Northeast. They are guessing the mild winter combined with poor mite control is the culprit. (Higher temperatures allowing the mites to thrive) They noted, however, that this behavior seems to also happen in hives treated for mites. This is only a preliminary report and more may come out later.
Mine absconded even though they had more than a deep super filled with honey, had been treated for mites and nosema timely and appropriately, during late fall when wrapping the hives, etc. This is in fact extraordinary. As a former commercial beekeeper, it might be a little more understandable with a very large number of hives that a very few of them might abscond although still rare, however this is happening often to experienced beekeepers who do not have or no longer have large numbers of hives. I had one of mine do so as well this late fall. It bears watching closely. OMTCW
I find the concept of whole colonies of bees suddenly absconding from their hives leaving stores quite amazing as I am sure all of you who have had it happen do also. I have never heard of it before and it just doesn't seem to fit the concept of beekeeping that I know, especially as it seems so widespread. Is there any relationship to CCD??
I wonder if there have been any genetic studies made of the colonies that have absconded. There must be genetic material left in the hives that can be studied by your beekeeping authorities in an attempt to find the cause/s.
Mick
Quote from: SlickMick on February 12, 2016, 12:01:44 AM
I find the concept of whole colonies of bees suddenly absconding from their hives leaving stores quite amazing as I am sure all of you who have had it happen do also. I have never heard of it before and it just doesn't seem to fit the concept of beekeeping that I know, especially as it seems so widespread. Is there any relationship to CCD??
I wonder if there have been any genetic studies made of the colonies that have absconded. There must be genetic material left in the hives that can be studied by your beekeeping authorities in an attempt to find the cause/s.
Mick
From what I have read/heard some people suspect that bees with Africanized genes are more likely to respond.. is this true?
Slick, are absconding hives an issue in Australia? I've never heard of it here
Africanized might be a good theory except that absconding reports are coming from all over, including placeswhere Africanized genetics don't seem to be present. Could AHB genetics be spreading beyond the range of Africanized bees? If so, why this trait rather than some more desirable ones (yes, some people contend the AHB has some desirable traits, tho I'm unclear what they might be)?
QuoteSlick, are absconding hives an issue in Australia? I've never heard of it here
Phil it is so foreign to me, I just don't understand it. Others may have heard of it buT I certainly haven't.
There has to be something common to all of those absconding colonies that's the cause. Is it happening in the northern states and Canada? Is it in a cluster of states? What research has been done?..
Mick
Yesterday was 'the calm after a storm' (and a particularly bad storm at that - 68ft waves reported off Cornwall). The day started off with a heavy frost, but then the sun came out, and after an hour or two so did the bees. Every hive put a cloud of bees into the air - which is always a good sight to see after weeks of confinement.
I mention this as a comparison - for I've never yet had a colony abscond in the way being described, nor have I ever heard of this happening to anyone else in Britain. It is true that from time to time reporters trying to make-up an alarmist story will claim CCD-type absconding has been observed in parts of Europe, but losing colonies by swarming or by winter starvation (both of which do happen, sure) is not the same thing at all. I'd suggest that it's a softer option for incompetent or lazy beekeepers to jump on 'the CCD bandwagon', than face up to their own mistakes.
For those in Southern areas relying on swarms for their stocks, I'd suggest buying a queen from 'up North' - say, from someone like Michael Palmer who has never seen absconding or CCD - and breed your working queens from her. It's not a perfect solution, of course, as you've still got your local drones to contend with - but at least by starting-off with a stable maternal line you may be able to retain sufficient European genetics to at least get your colonies to stay put (assuming of course that it's Africanisation that's responsible). If you then go on to buy one new queen from 'up North' every two years or so (which isn't a major expense, compared with the expense of lost colonies) from which to breed, you could at least then cope whilst a more permanent solution is found.
LJ
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 12, 2016, 12:46:24 AM
(yes, some people contend the AHB has some desirable traits, tho I'm unclear what they might be)?
We don't have them in Australia, but I have read they are very productive and able to manage pests better (beetle, Varroa).. but if they keep flying off that doesn't really matter does it!
Quote from: PhilK on February 12, 2016, 06:23:26 PM
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 12, 2016, 12:46:24 AM
(yes, some people contend the AHB has some desirable traits, tho I'm unclear what they might be)?
We don't have them in Australia, but I have read they are very productive and able to manage pests better (beetle, Varroa).. but if they keep flying off that doesn't really matter does it!
I know some guys in South Texas that would be glad to send you some. Yes, guys there and southern Rizona say they're very productive, but if they get PO'd, they'll follow you more than half a mile. There are no urban beekeepers in AHB country.
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 12, 2016, 07:17:37 PM
Quote from: PhilK on February 12, 2016, 06:23:26 PM
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 12, 2016, 12:46:24 AM
(yes, some people contend the AHB has some desirable traits, tho I'm unclear what they might be)?
We don't have them in Australia, but I have read they are very productive and able to manage pests better (beetle, Varroa).. but if they keep flying off that doesn't really matter does it!
I know some guys in South Texas that would be glad to send you some. Yes, guys there and southern Rizona say they're very productive, but if they get PO'd, they'll follow you more than half a mile. There are no urban beekeepers in AHB country.
Lol they're able to retain enormous quantities of honey cos no bugger is willing to go near enough to harvest it?
Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
Quote from: KeyLargoBees on February 03, 2016, 03:11:52 PM
not enough to noticeably change the temper of the hives maybe but the genetics are still there in some smal percentage..
And the percentage would be even smaller because the gene would be recessive. So I can't get wrapped up around the idea that the problem stems from African genetics. I can however draw anecdotal reference to the fact that more and more neonics are being put into the environment as time goes on. Whereas Europe is not using them and not seeing the problem to the extent that we are. I am not a scientist but it seams to me there is a study going on every day about this but no one is collecting the data.
Is there evidence that the genetics of AHBs are recessive? The defensiveness of AHBs seems to be passed down through several generations.
I've read (and been unable to wrap my head around the allegation) that a queen that mates with an Africanized drone and numerous non-Africanized drones will somehow use the Africanized sperm (or perhaps the Africanized sperm is more energetic?) in preference to the other sperm. Seems a stretch to me. In either case, the result is a hot hive. If some bees in a hive are aggressive (more defensive), the other bees will become more defensive, even though they have no AHB genetics, according to some.
Is it guaranteed that the African bee genetics will result in an aggressive hive? No doubt African bees have other genes.
Quote from: Acebird on February 13, 2016, 08:20:51 PM
Is it guaranteed that the African bee genetics will result in an aggressive hive? No doubt African bees have other genes.
I don't know if it's guaranteed, but it is extremely likely. Other genetic characteristics, besides defenseiveness, are a tendency to swarm, they like to nest in low places like water meter boxes and lawn irrigation control boxes; and good honey producers. Their tendency to swarm is possibly a good defense against varroa and SHBs. They may, in that regard, tend to abscond rather than swarm, but they do seem to want to propagate a lot, so swarming is there, too. i'll bet some beekeepers from Arizona and south Texas can contribute a lot more toward explaining their genetic tendncies.
I just know that a lot of beekeepers from my area try to buy queens from up north because they have bought Southern-bred queens and wound up with very hot hives. They attibute it to AHB genetics, possibly from drones.
I can't see where swarming helps their cause against varroa. They bring the mites with them.
By. Moving the hive, they break the life cycle of the mites. It takes about a year for the mites to build up their numbers again after a move.
Jim
It has to be a very short brood break so how much can it knock them down? Granted there would be less mites because there would be less bees similar to a package of bees. If you took an infested hive and did an equal divide the half that had the queen doesn't see a break in brood so it is still infested. Even if there is a supercedure there isn't much of a break. The biggest break comes when you force the bees into an emergency queen situation.
That's kind of the feeling that I had about the idea that the varroa is what is behind the absconds. Do the bees 'know' that the brood cycle break will lower the mite population? I certainly do think that they must 'know' that absconding in October or November here in the north is certain death. Or are they just 'driven mad' by the infestation?
Reading in "The Beekeeper's Handbook" today I ran across two pertinent facts about AHBs. (1.) They're smaller than EHBs and (2.) They have less of a problem with varroa mites.
This goes back to the reason many people advocate for smaller, more natural cells, which equal smaller bees, which means less of a problem with varroa mites.
Okay, another school of thought favors these larger bees that were bred up in the 1800s, allegedly so they could produce more honey. If you believe that, fine. I don't want to fight about it. Just an observation.
And, tjc1, how about bees "knowing" that if they sting you, they'll die, so they are very reluctant to use that stinger. Did they learn all this stuff in bee kindergarten, or what?
At least part of the reason AHB fare better with Varroa is the shorter brood cycle - 19 days vs 21.
While researching my Buckfast lineage, I was a bit surprised to find that they sometimes have genetics from a couple other African bees.
According to Brother Adam "The African continent is a genetic treasury." "The honeybee races in Africa are at least as differing from each other as the European races are between themselves. African honeybees are not only Scutellata ("the Africanized bee - from Southern Africa"), but also the interesting and promising Monticola from the East African mountains."
Similar research has found that, of the 8 other African races, "(African races) may have something in common that makes them more tolerant to the varroa mite." They frequently appear to exhibit natural resistance to the the viruses caused by varroa.
Africans of the Monticola region are renowned for their low swarming tendencies, and were bred into the Buckfast line by Brother Adam. Similarly, the Sahariensas ( NW Africa) contribute "a very gentle demeanor" - in opposition to their infamous southern counterparts.
Cabin fever... - don't you just love it?
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 14, 2016, 09:46:50 PM
so they are very reluctant to use that stinger.
Well they are reluctant to sting until they get old and near the end of their life. Do you get stung by nurse bees?
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 14, 2016, 09:46:50 PM
And, tjc1, how about bees "knowing" that if they sting you, they'll die, so they are very reluctant to use that stinger. Did they learn all this stuff in bee kindergarten, or what?
BTW, I hope that I didn't come off as being a wise guy by using the quotes around 'know'. I was just trying to indicate that we can't really use that word in relation to bees in the same way that we usually do in relation to ourselves.
Quote from: tjc1 on February 15, 2016, 10:27:20 AM
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 14, 2016, 09:46:50 PM
And, tjc1, how about bees "knowing" that if they sting you, they'll die, so they are very reluctant to use that stinger. Did they learn all this stuff in bee kindergarten, or what?
BTW, I hope that I didn't come off as being a wise guy by using the quotes around 'know'. I was just trying to indicate that we can't really use that word in relation to bees in the same way that we usually do in relation to ourselves.
It never occurred to me that you were acting like a "wise guy". I'd be very surprised if the scientists someday discover bees have reasoning powers. I was using quotes for the same reason you did, not to somehow ridicule your use. We okay?
Colobee, that's very interesting. I seem to recall reading many years ago that Brother Adam used bees from Palestine in the mix. Those may have been some form of African bee. That's more a question than a statement. :smile:
Unfortunately, I'm getting a "Fatal error" message from the BS home page. That's where I've been digging through bunches of "winter" reading articles, including the above.
Strange - I clipped a link from there just this afternoon & can still navigate the forums... Maybe Barry missed a bit of mal-ware from the Friday hack?
They list Italian, English, French, Turkish and Greek, and in some cases East African and NW African. I've also seen mention of Iran, Turkey and Madagascar. Palestine certainly sounds plausible.
Quote from: Dallasbeek on February 15, 2016, 11:26:45 AM
BTW, I hope that I didn't come off as being a wise guy by using the quotes around 'know'. I was just trying to indicate that we can't really use that word in relation to bees in the same way that we usually do in relation to ourselves.
It never occurred to me that you were acting like a "wise guy". I'd be very surprised if the scientists someday discover bees have reasoning powers. I was using quotes for the same reason you did, not to somehow ridicule your use. We okay?
[/quote]
No prob at all Dallasbeek - I was just making sure on my end!
I would bee willing to bet that bees know that they will die if they sting you. If that was not the case, they would never bother to head butt you as they do all the time.
A bee in the field will run from danger but around the hive it will stand and fight. That sounds like there is some understanding going on on the bees part.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on February 16, 2016, 12:26:20 PM
I would bee willing to bet that bees know that they will die if they sting you. If that was not the case, they would never bother to head butt you as they do all the time.
Bees do not have the cognitive capacity to 'know' anything in the way we 'know' things. A bee's sting does not always kill them, only in thick skinned mammals such as ourselves. I doubt very much bees know that if they sting and insect they will live but if they sting a mammal they will die.
Venom is an expensive commodity to produce. Many snakes and spiders will strike or headbutt as warnings, and will go so far as to deliver 'dry bites' without injecting any venom. If these don't work they will envenomate. I would imagine that we can say the same things about a bee - if a threat can be driven off by high pitched buzzing around the face and headbutting, then she will be able to conserve her venom. If this doesn't work, she will sting.
I'm not a bee scientist (I am a vet!) but this makes sense to me!
Phil, Interesting about the snakes head butting. I've lived in the country all my live. In this part of the world a snake "head butting" is unheard of. They bite. We have rattle snakes that will rattle a rattle on the end of their tails but that's the only warning you'll get.
Quote from: GSF on February 17, 2016, 05:55:24 AM
Phil, Interesting about the snakes head butting. I've lived in the country all my live. In this part of the world a snake "head butting" is unheard of. They bite. We have rattle snakes that will rattle a rattle on the end of their tails but that's the only warning you'll get.
Interesting, I suppose there is differences across species. I have worked with snakes that give a closed mouth strike, and know of snakes that will dry bite - but I am on the other side of the world to you! Nevertheless, the rattle serves the same purpose - it is the warning system telling you to back off, and allowing the snake to conserve that venom, as well as avoid a possible injury by attacking you. Nature is full of these examples - spiders and scorpions will make a display and mock strike, other animals will puff themselves up to appear bigger. It stands to reason (for me at least, and I may not be right!) that bees have a similair system of warnings (headbutting, flying around the face, that high pitched buzz). Animals would generally rather avoid a confrontation for self preservation reasons. Regardless of the type of warning, if you ignore it you're going to get bitten/stung.
I couldn't agree more with your logic but I can't pear into a bees mind.