My hive consists of a single deep 8 frame box which contains brood and 3x1/2 depth supers that are filling quickly. The other day when I went into do an inspection, the brood went from side to side except for one frame in the middle which contained pollen mostly. So I had seven frames of sealed and unsealed brood and freshly laid eggs. And there were drone cells in the corners of the frames in the super above together with a few running around the frames. This is a hive that was bought as a five frame nuke in October last year and has just boomed this year
I have thought for a while that there may be the possibility of swarming as every evening there is a substantial amount of bearding at the entrance, under the landing board and above. However when I checked there was no indication of swarm cells on the bottom of the frames. So far so good!
As a measure to minimise the chance of swarming I have thought of splitting the hive into a new nuke and taking the old Queen with roughly half the brood and partially sealed comb allowing the original hive to make a new Queen. However this month is the start of our autumn (your fall) and I am concerned that there may not be the drones available to mate successfully with a new Queen even though I am in the subtropics and the girls fly and continue to build the stores all year. Apart from that I live in the city and I am unaware of any other beeks nearby. So I am thinking of opening up the brood to give the queen a bit of space and hopefully reduce any likelihood of swarming.
Thanks for any thoughts on this
Mick
Why not just add another box to the brood nest deep or medium ....doesnt matter? If they use it great ....and If you are in the tropics (as am i) you will likely only see laying slow as the days grow shorter since the temperature change isn't evident to the girls. When laying slows the brood nest will contract and you can collapse it as necessary.
Quote from: SlickMick on March 07, 2016, 08:32:50 AM
...Apart from that I live in the city and I am unaware of any other beeks nearby
My mate and I keep bees in Paddington, and we're getting a nuc to set up a hive in West End as well.
Splitting would be fine at this time of year according to what I have heard - I know suppliers that will sell nucs up til the end of autumn because they'll be right to build up, especially with the diverse flora of the city suburbs!
Mick, it seems to me you could extract a box and put the wet super under the others. If they wanted to expand they could. If they didn't they don't have to. With honey coming in all through your winter do you need much on the hive?
Thanks all. I ended up using Acebirds suggestion
Mick
Quote from: SlickMick on March 07, 2016, 08:32:50 AM
My hive consists of a single deep 8 frame box which contains brood and 3x1/2 depth supers that are filling quickly. The other day when I went into do an inspection, the brood went from side to side except for one frame in the middle which contained pollen mostly. So I had seven frames of sealed and unsealed brood and freshly laid eggs. And there were drone cells in the corners of the frames in the super above together with a few running around the frames. This is a hive that was bought as a five frame nuke in October last year and has just boomed this year
I have thought for a while that there may be the possibility of swarming as every evening there is a substantial amount of bearding at the entrance, under the landing board and above. However when I checked there was no indication of swarm cells on the bottom of the frames. So far so good!
As a measure to minimise the chance of swarming I have thought of splitting the hive into a new nuke and taking the old Queen with roughly half the brood and partially sealed comb allowing the original hive to make a new Queen. However this month is the start of our autumn (your fall) and I am concerned that there may not be the drones available to mate successfully with a new Queen even though I am in the subtropics and the girls fly and continue to build the stores all year. Apart from that I live in the city and I am unaware of any other beeks nearby. So I am thinking of opening up the brood to give the queen a bit of space and hopefully reduce any likelihood of swarming.
Thanks for any thoughts on this
Mick
We've still got drones in the hives in southern Tasmania, so I reckon you'd have them flying for a while yet up in Brisbane.
OK - correction - just went and fed my hives - there are drones being dragged out, stung, dead & dying all over the place.
Yeah it's amazing how they've just decided to kill all the drones. I was watching heaps of them last week.
Well, the girls beat me to it. Whilst I was away in Perth over the past 10 days or so they swarmed last Wednesday, March 24. I arrived home yesterday late to learn that they had left their temporary holding place and were nowhere to be found. I can only guess where they might be now.
Before I left home I had been concerned that swarming may be an issue and I had given them another half depth super to give them more room. I had opened the box some days before I left to find the brood box with seven frames of brood and only one of pollen and honey and I was reluctant to remove one of the frames with brood on it to give the Queen more room to lay as I had nowhere to put it. Perhaps I should have taken a couple of frames of brood out together with the Queen and a frame or two of honey and made a nuc and let the old hive make a new Queen. At least I will remember this should it happen again.
Anyhow with our cooler weather approaching I will push them down into the brood box and one super to safeguard against SHB. All I can do now is hope that the virgin Queen can find suitable mates and that she returns safely and ready to lay. I will check the brood box tomorrow for eggs.
Fortunately there are still a fair number of leopard trees flowering and that the colony that is left will have enough time to build up again before the cooler weather arrives. I am disappointed to lose the old Queen as she was only seven months old and extremely fertile. I just hope the new Queen is as productive.
I am curious as to when the emerging Queen might have hatched so that I have some idea of when the swarm cells might have been made.
I am also interested in how long the old Queen may have stayed with the colony after the virgin Queen hatched. Anyone have ideas on this?
Mick
With all eight frame mediums I never have this dilemma... I can always move frames up to the next box.
"I am also interested in how long the old Queen may have stayed with the colony after the virgin Queen hatched. Anyone have ideas on this?"
Normally, depending on the weather, the swarm leaves the day they cap the queen cells, not after they hatch. This is with a primary swarm, not the secondary ones.
Jim
I opened the hive today, Saturday. The 3 1/2 deep supers were full and capped. There was a small amount of drone brood in the bottom super in the corners of one frame.
and ar fair number in the brood box. Also in the brood box, there were some drones running around. There were also four capped queen cells in the comb plus a couple more uncapped. There was also a frame of pollen and honey. I could see no eggs but there was a fair amount of capped brood (equivalent to about four frames) and a limited amount of uncapped brood. The rest of the space was taken up by empty cells.
If we count Wednesday is day one, Saturday (today) is day four. So I expect that I will see an emerging queen in about 12 days and maybe a week later eggs?
There is still plenty of nectar and pollen coming in as many of the leopard trees are still in bloom so there should be enough honey and pollen to see a new queen laying.
Our winters are pretty mild here and I expect that the girls will keep flying and bringing in nectar and pollen as there are winter flowering trees here.
I have to think about setting up another hive to give me a bit more flexibility.
Mick
I usually give them 12 days after hatching to look for eggs. Sometimes it happens faster but 28 days from egg to laying queen is average for me.
Thanks Barhopper! Fixes my timing for me
Mick
They swarm after the queen cells are capped which is day 8...she hatches at 16 and it laying at 28 +/- 1 day on all these dates....so if the hive swarmed on day 8 March 24th...she should be hatching today or tomorrow. and laying around the 12th of April.
Thanks Jeff, that ties things down foe me
Mick
A single 8 frame deep? What did I miss? I would think you would want "two" 8 frame deep brood chambers to give you some flexibility in managing numbers? I realize where you live, and that you may not have winters like we do, but a single 8 frame medium is not a lot of room.
Perhaps I am just thinking too much on my own management strategies in this climate, but a single 8 frame deep I would probably have to split or pull nucs from it at least three times during spring/summer to keep it managed.
NO experience in your climate, so feel free to tell me if I am out of line.
Jeff/Mick Pretty much a good answer. However, I watch some of mine close last summer. For what ever reason (heat? end of flow?) they seemed to shave off a couple of days from that schedule.
Thanks guys for your help.
I got into hive yesterday to find the Queen cells gone and plenty of boys running around so I'm assuming that I have a virgin Queen and as expected there are no visible eggs. There are still a couple of frames of brood and frames being backfilled with nectar. I shall give them another week and hopefully I will see nicely laid eggs.
Interesting comment OldMech regarding the eight frame deep. The previous time I opened the hive I did so because they were bearding on the front and under the landing board. I found that they had the deep full of brood and 3 1/2 depth supers full of honey of which I took two supers and replaced them with partially drawn comb. So I can't blame them for bearding. This was after they swarmed. Prior to that the Queen was using only the bottom deep and the corners of some frames in the lower super where she was laying drones cells.
So yesterday I reconfigured the hive to bottom deep, half depth partially drawn comb, half depth honey, half depth partially drawn comb all in 8 frames. So there should be plenty of room for a vigorous queen to lay in. Yet still they beard even though they have the equivalent of a single deep in which to move.
Hopefully the new Queen will get their minds on their jobs in a couple of days time and sort out the space issue.
The girls have been really busy it seems. It is a nice gentle colony, even Queenless they have not been aggressive so I hope that I have not lost that characteristic with the swarm.
Mick
GSF I have head that high heat can cause up to a 2 day shortening in workers and drones but I hadn't heard that a queen with her shorter cycle will ever be affected by more than +/- 1....but hey stranger things have happened....and he is in Australia so all upside down and all who knows ;-)
I guess KLB, that you didn't realise that not only to our bees fly upside down but also they fly backwards to keep the dust out of their eyes
You think I'm joshing don't you but it's true
Mick
So, follow-up!
It seems that I might have a virgin Queen flying around looking for appropriate mates as all the boys were out and about today. Those are came back seemed to be entire so it appears that Queenie may still be looking for suitable suitors
Shall have a poke around some time next week and hopefully see those little white eggs at the bottom of the cells.
Mick
Quote from: SlickMick on April 06, 2016, 09:30:18 AM
So yesterday I reconfigured the hive to bottom deep, half depth partially drawn comb, half depth honey, half depth partially drawn comb all in 8 frames. So there should be plenty of room for a vigorous queen to lay in. Yet still they beard even though they have the equivalent of a single deep in which to move.
There are a number of reasons why bees beard. One is to control hive temperature, probably the most common.
Checked the hive this afternoon.
No sign of the Queen, no eggs, eight frames being backfilled with honey, no brood, one capped Queen cell and four empty Queen cups. So I am thinking that the Queen cell is an attempt to produce an emergency Queen and that the hive requires a Queen urgently.
The hive is still pretty strong with bees and I can fortunately get hold of another nuc tomorrow evening and do a paper combine in a day or so. At least that way I can take advantage of any autumn and winter flow and have a strong hive for spring. If by chance the Queen does appear over the next couple of days there, I have my second colony ? just have to buy some more wood.
Mick
Mick in looking at your time line best guess of the swarm and what not she shouldn't even have a possibility of laying until today 4/12 and sometimes depending on drone availability and weather it can take several days more...I wouldn't give up on your Virgin until around 4/16 or 4/17 and if you combine before then you risk a battle royale which could damage both queens.....anyone else with more experience is welcome to comment on this please....I am just running numbers
Thanks for working that through for me KL.
The one thing that has me puzzled is the capped queen cell. There was no uncapped brood left in the box and certainly no eggs to make up a working queen cell with. The only thing I can think of is that they see this is their last opportunity to become queen right naturally. They must have somehow used one of the then existing capped brood cells. The area for about 3 cm radius has been cleared of any cells on both sides of the foundation.
I am still going to collect the nuc this evening as is so late in the season here I might not be able to get either a new queen or nuc in a weeks time.
If by chance there is a new Queen by the weekend than I shall allow the nuc to develop into a new hive. If not then I shall then combine the two colonies.
Mick
Quote from: SlickMick on April 13, 2016, 02:51:36 AM
...The only thing I can think of is that they see this is their last opportunity to become queen right naturally. They must have somehow used one of the then existing capped brood cells...
To make a queen they need either an egg or a young larvae.. my understanding is once a brood cell is capped it is well and truly too late for them to make a queen out of the larva inside.
I have also seen capped queen cells recently in a nuc we received that had no eggs or brood in it. Confusing!
Well the long and short of the story is that I picked up the nuc on the Thursday before last, checked that there were no eggs or Queen in the brood box and combined the two colonies on the Saturday. The two colonies are now working as one.
Went into the two boxes yesterday (Saturday), a nice brood pattern in the nuc box and below it in the original brood box some young larva in uncapped cells. I shall check again next week.
Thanks for all your suggestions
Mick
The end of the saga is here at last.
I had a look through both boxes this morning. I saw the Queen in the bottom box with a couple of frames of capped and uncapped Brood and a frame and a bit in the top box. The rest of the bottom box is heavy with honey so I am going to have to move some of that out into the top box and insert empty frames to give her Majesty room to lay.
I now realise that I should have done that prior to them swarming in March, so at least I have learnt something from the exercise. I knew then that they needed space but just couldn't imagine how to go about giving it to them.
Mick
Congratulations, glad it worked out for you.
Jim