Out of curiosity more than anything else is as usual to wire deep foundationless frames in the brood nest to support the brood and also in the honey supers to help carry the weight of honey.
Or do most people rely on the bees making good attachments
Mick
Wiring was invented to keep the foundation from sagging. I find it necessary when using wax foundation in deep frames. How much is necessary depends on how hot the weather is and how quckly they draw it.
Quote from: SlickMick on April 21, 2016, 09:58:50 AM
Out of curiosity more than anything else is as usual to wire deep foundationless frames in the brood nest to support the brood
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=48266.0 reply #5 shows a 'worst-case scenario' frame - comb almost fully drawn, but not yet attached at the sides. That's why I wire f/less frames - for security, not to support the weight itself.
LJ
I use all medium frames. I have been switching to foundation less this year and found that it really helps to add the pins to the sides of the frames. The pins were designed to hold wax foundation in place. I add them to stabilize the comb until the bees connect the comb to the bottom and sides.
If you are using foundation less, add a thin wood strip in the top slot and using melted wax, paint the edge with wax. So far every frame that the swarms have made on them have been near perfect.
Jim
If I were really concerned about it (I'm not) I would add a coffee stir stick vertically in the middle of the frame. That would stabilize the center of a hanging comb quite a bit.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#canwire
When i used deep frames I found the vertical wires to be enough to support the brood frames. If you ever need to extract a deep frame you will wish you had the horizontal wires as well. Long hives have no support and generally do fine if you handle them correctly, so a lot depends on your intentions and handling skills. Medium frames I dont use any wires or foundation and lose about one in fifty while extracting, and thats usually my fault for spinning up too fast or because I tried to extract comb that was too soft/not well attached.
Here is a thread with some pictures.
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=40689.msg353283#msg353283
Here is a photo of how I start. I only have mediums now, but still string them with monofilament. Super frames, too, if I plan on extracting them, but they seem strong enough without, actually. On super frames, if the comb is well=drawn and you are reasonably careful in extracting, I think that you'd be fine without the support; I don't know if I can say for sure that having it there also helps them to draw the comb straighter. Here's what I do with monofilament line. I tie a triple knot to start so the the mf doesn't pull through the hole in the side frame when you start; you have to pull it really tight, as it stretches with time. When I get to the end, I pull it through the last hole and tie it off to itself on the outside. I do this with mediums, for general support, and super frames, too, if I plan to extract them. I usually leave a few super frames with no support, to use as cut comb.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm144/tjcurtin1/Bees/IMG_4051.jpg) (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tjcurtin1/media/Bees/IMG_4051.jpg.html)
Quote from: OldMech on April 21, 2016, 05:29:20 PM
Long hives have no support and generally do fine if you handle them correctly, so a lot depends on your intentions and handling skills.
... and workload. For the back garden beekeeper with a couple of hives, great care can be given to handling, but those with large numbers of hives simply do not have time to handle frames like that. And quite often I need to view combs at an inclined angle - to catch the light - or even lie them flat for cell-punching.
Then there's transportation - I like to ensure that a customer gets their nuc home with the combs still attached, and not on the floor of the box.
Wiring is a hassle - it takes time and patience, and I'd love to be able to omit that extra job if it were feasible - but on balance I think it's a job worth doing, for it only needs to be done once in the lifetime of a frame ... that is, providing that you don't put that frame in a solar wax melter.
Seems to me that if you're not going to support the comb across the side bars, then you may as well run Top-Bar only, and save yourself a heap of money.
The following is an extract of the opening comments re: the KTBH by the guy largely responsible for it's invention:
QuoteG.F. Townsend - Beehive Designs for the Tropics, 1984
In Kenya a modification of the Greek basket hive with movable top bars, which is now called the ?Kenya Top Bar Hive,? is successfully replacing the traditional log hive with fixed combs. The hive was tested on an extensive scale by Mr. Jim Nightingale, of Njoro, Kenya, and proved to be quite successful for Kenya conditions.
With this hive it is possible to remove the frames which contain only honey. The major drawback, which restricts its use to stationary-type beekeeping, is that the combs will break away from the top bar quite readily. The combs must be suspended vertically at all times; if the bar is rotated so that the comb is horizontal, the weight of the comb may cause it to break from the bar. To harvest the honey and beeswax, remove the combs that contain fully capped honey but no pollen or brood.
Mr. Jim Nightingale has found recently that if three small holes, about 2.5 - 3 mm in thickness, are drilled through the top bar, the center one being at a 90 degree angle with the top and the other two sloping inward, then three 2.5 mm strips of wood or bamboo can be passed through these as depicted. When the comb is drawn out over these sticks, the comb will be strong enough to withstand transportation.
LJ
LJ, I followed your recommendation on the 50lb test monofilament, and it stretches a lot. I wonder if "spider wire " or similar braided fish line might be better? It's thinner and less stretchy. And more expensive, but we're talking $10 difference for a lifetime supply. But I dunno? ?
It doesn't really need to have a high tension - I sometimes pluck the strands out of curiosity, and it sounds like a kiddy's plastic banjo: plink, plink, plonk etc. Not exactly 'musical' !
It's only there to stop the comb from waving about after all, until the side adhesions are made and firmed-up - so a tiny bit of stretch isn't really an issue. But - if you're happier with braided line - then so be it. Hope it works ok for you ... I swear by this method.
LJ
Wire in Foundation was used for two things so the cells would not sag and to keep the foundation in the middle of the frame so it would not warped or wave.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 24, 2016, 07:04:58 AM
Wire in Foundation was used for two things so the cells would not sag and to keep the foundation in the middle of the frame so it would not warped or wave.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
But we're talking about
foundationless combs - different animal entirely, and the 'wire' is being used for a different purpose - to support the combs during transport or inspection, until adequate side adhesions are made. Vertical wooden or bamboo skewers could be used instead of horizontal 'wire' - but they look like crap (imo).
LJ
Quote from: little john on April 24, 2016, 08:19:10 AM
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 24, 2016, 07:04:58 AM
Wire in Foundation was used for two things so the cells would not sag and to keep the foundation in the middle of the frame so it would not warped or wave.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
But we're talking about foundationless combs - different animal entirely, and the 'wire' is being used for a different purpose - to support the combs during transport or inspection, until adequate side adhesions are made. Vertical wooden or bamboo skewers could be used instead of horizontal 'wire' - but they look like crap (imo).
LJ
Did you read the title of the thread.?
Topic:
Wiring foundationless frames BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Thanks so much for your replies and ideas.
I have just started to swing over to foundationless frames. I have three frames in the brood box where there is no attachment to the sides and I was concerned that this could become an issue. I am going to have two rotate these frames into the next box above so that they can become clear of brood and so that I can wire them in.
It's all a learning curve
Mick
Mick,
If your frames are pre drilled, get some foundation pins and push them in. They help a lot for handling the frame until the bees connect the wax to the frame.
I have been drilling holes in the empty frames that do not have them and then putting the pins in.
Jim
Great idea Jim, will do
Mick
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 24, 2016, 08:36:45 AM
Quote from: little john on April 24, 2016, 08:19:10 AM
Quote from: Jim 134 on April 24, 2016, 07:04:58 AM
Wire in Foundation was used for two things so the cells would not sag and to keep the foundation in the middle of the frame so it would not warped or wave.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
But we're talking about foundationless combs - different animal entirely, and the 'wire' is being used for a different purpose - to support the combs during transport or inspection, until adequate side adhesions are made. Vertical wooden or bamboo skewers could be used instead of horizontal 'wire' - but they look like crap (imo).
LJ
Did you read the title of the thread.?
Topic: Wiring foundationless frames
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I did. Did you ? "
Wire in Foundation was used for two things ... "
Which is something MB said a few posts ago ...
Why talk about wire in foundation, when we're discussing foundationless combs - it's irrelevant.
Interesting, factual even (perhaps) - but irrelevant.
LJ
Here's another way if you do not want to use wire for support on foundationless frames.
https://youtu.be/LzDuMvvU_xw
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
What a great idea! Thanks
Mick
He start talking about foundationless frames at 4 minutes and 20 seconds.
https://youtu.be/UjIJV-oCbO8
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Quote from: little john on April 22, 2016, 03:39:46 AMWiring is a hassle - it takes time and patience, and I'd love to be able to omit that extra job if it were feasible - but on balance I think it's a job worth doing, for it only needs to be done once in the lifetime of a frame ... that is, providing that you don't put that frame in a solar wax melter.
What does putting them into a solar wax melter do to the wires?
Good to see the frame without attachment to the sides and bottom because that is what I have on the 3 frames in my brood box and there appears to be no urgency from the girls to do anything about it. At least I know that I can support the comb with pins until they get around to doing the job.
Thanks for the video links and ideas
Mick
Quote from: PhilK on April 28, 2016, 01:46:29 AM
Quote from: little john on April 22, 2016, 03:39:46 AMWiring is a hassle - it takes time and patience, and I'd love to be able to omit that extra job if it were feasible - but on balance I think it's a job worth doing, for it only needs to be done once in the lifetime of a frame ... that is, providing that you don't put that frame in a solar wax melter.
What does putting them into a solar wax melter do to the wires?
As the sun is frequently noticeable by it's absence here in the UK, I personally use steam rather than solar energy to recover wax - but I'm told by those who have tried this, that monofilament fishing line will stretch with the heat generated inside a solar wax melter.
Using wire - as opposed to fishing line - would be one way around this problem, but you'll need to use those little brass inserts to prevent the wire from cutting into the wood. One reason that I use 50-60 lb bs monofilament fishing line is because it's larger diameter won't cut into the wood - the other reason being that the bees can't get their mandibles around that diameter in order to chew it out. Apparently, much lighter gauge fishing line (20-30 lbs) can be chewed - but I learned from the experiences of others to avoid the lighter stuff.
The above video is very informative - the only comment I'd add with regard to 'crush and strain' when using wired foundationless, is that it's easy enough to slide a knife along the fishing line to release the comb in sections. A little more care is needed than without wires, that's all.
SlickMick - the guy in the video advised against using pins, as they localise the stress in a small area at the edge. I guess as a temporary fix, you could always run a loop of fishing line right around the outside of the frame, to give the comb some temporary support ?
LJ
Never had much success with pins or fishing lines. To help support Foundationless comb in Hoffman frames. Never tried sticks for support like the first video I put up.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Yes,LJ, I did notice that. I intend now to wire the frames prior to using them. Checking on the three I have in the brood chamber today the girls have started to attach the comb to the sidebars from the top down. So I guess it will take them some time to complete seeing as they have been working on since October last year.
Mick