Installed this package 9 days ago. Queen was released by the bees in 3 days. Did first inspection today. This is what I saw. Could not find the queen. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160424/cc88a886d2917555025f32c83346daeb.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160424/822a06da55c3f7e7d89b622279726f78.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160424/5a636c1b7ae8fad689e70be0069dc3e0.jpg)
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Some double eggs, but in the bottom of the cell is what I see. Can't tell if that's a queen cell they're building. Wait for more experience, but young queens sometimes lay more than one egg in a cell. Laying workers don't get the eggs in the bottom of the cell as a rule.
Dallas is right on. That is a new queen doing that not laying worker. If they were on the side, it would be laying worker.
Did you pay for a mated queen. This is not the work of a proven queen. She is just getting started. Talk to the seller.
Jim
I did talk to the seller, and he is happy to give me another queen, but he won't have any until Wednesday. Which I guess is ok. It'd take that long for one to be shipped. I wish I could find my queen so I can be 100% sure it's not Latin worker. It'd be a whole lot easier to simply re-queen rather than shake them all!
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Also, there were eggs on some pollen cells, if that makes a difference.
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Rather than getting a new queen, I would return the nuc and demand a different one. One that is in good condition, as was paid for. let him correct the bad one.
Quote from: iddee on April 24, 2016, 09:43:51 AM
Rather than getting a new queen, I would return the nuc and demand a different one. One that is in good condition, as was paid for. let him correct the bad one.
It was a package.
Quote from: iddee on April 24, 2016, 09:43:51 AM
Rather than getting a new queen, I would return the nuc and demand a different one. One that is in good condition, as was paid for. let him correct the bad one.
But you are right. I'd rather just start over seeing as it's only been 10 days.
Then it should not be laying workers. They don't develop that fast. By Wednesday she should be laying one egg per cell. Check again before adding a queen.
I checked for the queen again today with no luck. I really don't think she's there.
If I got ahold of a Nuc, could I combine the Nuc and the LW hive via the newspaper method? Should be open and capped brood in a Nuc, plus a queen, which, if I'm thinking right, should suppress their want to lay? Thoughts?
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It's really, really, really hard to spot a young queen. Look for eggs, not a queen. If you combine the new nuc with the hive you have, you'll end up with one queen, where now you likely have two. I don't know aboit how they teach economics where you went to school, but to me that's a loss. Take Iddee's advice and wait to see what the eggs look like Wednesday. Or not. It's your bees, your queen(s) and your business.
Going into the hive constantly is a good way to either roll (kill) the queen or have the bees determine she's the reason their life keeps getting disrupted. When they do that, they'll kill her. Then you'll wind up with laying workers.
Have patience, grasshopper.
I would make the seller make it right. A package won't make laying workers in 9 days.
If you can do so(some people using phones can't), go into your profile and enter your location. Most answers to your questions depend on your location. Also, there may be an experienced beek on here that's near you and could perhaps help you. If you're unable to edit your profile an administrator could help you edit it.
Quote from: Dallasbeek on April 24, 2016, 06:33:28 PM
It's really, really, really hard to spot a young queen. Look for eggs, not a queen. If you combine the new nuc with the hive you have, you'll end up with one queen, where now you likely have two. I don't know aboit how they teach economics where you went to school, but to me that's a loss. Take Iddee's advice and wait to see what the eggs look like Wednesday. Or not. It's your bees, your queen(s) and your business.
Going into the hive constantly is a good way to either roll (kill) the queen or have the bees determine she's the reason their life keeps getting disrupted. When they do that, they'll kill her. Then you'll wind up with laying workers.
Have patience, grasshopper.
Thank you for the advice. You're right. I don't need to be going in a lot. I am very careful to have technique to avoid rolling the queen (pull out the end frame, and make sure I have enough room when I putt another). But I could still do more harm than good by looking for her. I guess I kinda feel like if I have LW, I need to try to fix it quick, but I can definitely benefit from patience.
Keep us posted Matt, and ditto on the generalized location of your profile. It helps a lot.
Quote from: GSF on April 25, 2016, 03:47:16 PM
Keep us posted Matt, and ditto on the generalized location of your profile. It helps a lot.
Thanks! I finally put my location in. Seems I'm pretty close to you.
So here's where I'm at. I've been getting a lot of conflicting advice. Some are telling me to wait it out. And for good reason. I realize I am not good at finding one, and a new queen is very hard to find. Others, local 30+ year beekeepers are telling me to try to fix it immediately. At the same time, my supplier will have queens ready Wednesday. As of yesterday, my second look, i still have lots of multiple eggs. Very few singles, and no queen found. There is about 4 frames drawn, so if I have a good queen, she doesn't have a lot of room to lay. The foundation is not fully drawn out in terms of depth, so workers could theoretically reach the bottom of the cells.
I have also read Michael Bush's thoughts on Laying workers, and I have all the signs. Most notably, eggs on top of pollen. They're taking very little syrup, which may not mean anything, but my other hive has consumed almost a quart in a day. This hive, not even close.
My problem (and I will call him tomorrow to find out) is I don't know how long my supplier will have queens available. I want to wait until the brood that I have is capped. If its all drones, then i know I don't have a queen and i can go from there. Seems to me, if I have laying workers now, waiting a bit to let them cap it won't matter all that much. The treatment is the same. I don't want to take open brood from my other hive, because its doing well after a week, and I don't want to sacrifice that.
So this is my plan. I'm not going back in the hive until I know how long the supplier will have queens available. If I can wait a week before I check again, I will. I don't want to risk rolling a queen that may be there trying to figure out where to lay all those eggs. If he'll only have queens a short time, then I'll have to decide if i still want to wait, and order a queen online if needed, or just go get one from him (which will probably be a free replacement of the one I had/have).
I do know this. I now fully understand what Laying Workers are and the signs of having them. I fully understand how the queen pheromone AND brood pheromone suppresses the drive for workers to lay. I also fully understand that new queens can sometimes lay multiples, and that they are typically VERY hard to find. I also fully understand that queens can be hard to come by. And, I fully understand that it is very advisable to start with 2 hives.
Bottom line, regardless of the outcome, I will be a better beekeeper because of this experience. I just hope I continue this year with 2 hives!
Please let me know any thoughts.
Sounds like you have learned a whole lot in a very short time. Good job!
If I were in your situation and had the options you have I'd get another queen. Chances are more so than not that you have laying workers. Be sure to shake out the bees in order to loose the laying workers.
I'd shake them out at a point as to when they return to the apiary the first hive they reach would be theirs. Otherwise you'll have a weak hive after the flow. Keep your eye on them, you may have to continue feeding after the flow. Privet is starting to open up down here. I've seen magnolia opening up south of here.
Quote from: GSF on April 26, 2016, 08:16:30 AM
If I were in your situation and had the options you have I'd get another queen. Chances are more so than not that you have laying workers. Be sure to shake out the bees in order to loose the laying workers.
I'd shake them out at a point as to when they return to the apiary the first hive they reach would be theirs. Otherwise you'll have a weak hive after the flow. Keep your eye on them, you may have to continue feeding after the flow. Privet is starting to open up down here. I've seen magnolia opening up south of here.
I'm guessing this has to be done in the daylight, right? I am in a residential area, and shaking thousands of bees is a little more big profile than I like. But I'll do what I've got to.
Yes, shaking out the bees is a daylight thing. You want the bees to fly home, not walk, seriously. If you have a wooded area, nearby, close them up put them in your truck and shake them out there. The bees fly back and the laying workers are too heavy to make it. Have a box setup in the old location, the bees will beat you back to the hive. The bees that stay on the ground, are the laying workers and any remaining nurse bees. you do not want them.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 26, 2016, 12:52:02 PM
Yes, shaking out the bees is a daylight thing. You want the bees to fly home, not walk, seriously. If you have a wooded area, nearby, close them up put them in your truck and shake them out there. The bees fly back and the laying workers are too heavy to make it. Have a box setup in the old location, the bees will beat you back to the hive. The bees that stay on the ground, are the laying workers and any remaining nurse bees. you do not want them.
Jim
I do have woods lining my property. I could tuck in there and do it. That was gonna be my next question, if they could get back from in the woods? I'm thinking this is my only option. I'm gonna go in tomorrow and look one more time, and if the problem is still there I'm going Thursday to get a queen.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 26, 2016, 12:52:02 PM
Yes, shaking out the bees is a daylight thing. You want the bees to fly home, not walk, seriously. If you have a wooded area, nearby, close them up put them in your truck and shake them out there. The bees fly back and the laying workers are too heavy to make it. Have a box setup in the old location, the bees will beat you back to the hive. The bees that stay on the ground, are the laying workers and any remaining nurse bees. you do not want them.
Jim
Jim. Do you know if I can put them back on the frames that they've drawn out? These are the ones with multiple eggs. Or should I just start again on new foundation? If they really are laying workers, it would be all drones, so I'm not sure if giving them those cells back would be a good idea.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160426/afba8577a731d06e047367d8a49bd03d.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160426/48821401dd23935795fbaa218421c2fe.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160426/2acab2b0ea5748eff8e8049bd104bf08.jpg)
More pics of what I'm seeing.
Drones are not necessarily bad. The bees want 15-20% drones at this time of year. Assuming they have good math skills, that might save the new queen from having to lay more drones. :wink:
It does look like yor girls arebshooting out a lot of multiples -- not just doubles. That can't be a good thing. Could get crowded in those cells. I suspect, though, that the bees will sort it out. Why waste good comb?
The egg police will remove all but one egg. You could take out a couple frames or just leave a couple in there, and keep them somewhere else for about 4-5 days. Then the eggs would have hatched and the larva die(I think). Drones are a good thing but right now you need a workers not welfare'r's
Well, I did it. Took the box 100 yards away and shook them all out. Put a queen in a cage in and we'll see what happens. A lot of the bees did beat me back. I opened it up to look at the queen cage to see if they were trying to kill her. There's a good bit of bees back in the box, some on the queen cage. Did the Michael Palmer finger sweep and they were easily moved off the cage. Can't really tell if they were trying to kill her or not. A good bit of them were extending their proboscis into the cage. Who knows. I know this method is not ideal, but it was my only option. They'll probably kill her, but maybe I'll get lucky. They were already drawing out more comb though, so that's good.
Matt,
Offering their tongues is a very good sign, easily pushing them out of the way is another good sign. I doubt they will kill her. Sounds like they were eager for a queen. Check on her today and see if you can let her out. I have placed queens directly into a queenless hives with no problems.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 29, 2016, 01:17:57 PM
Matt,
Offering their tongues is a very good sign, easily pushing them out of the way is another good sign. I doubt they will kill her. Sounds like they were eager for a queen. Check on her today and see if you can let her out. I have placed queens directly into a queenless hives with no problems.
Jim
I watched Michael Palmer's video on what workers eager to accept a queen look like. After that I went in to see how they were acting. I was able to gently brush them off with the back of my finger. None appeared to be stuck on the cage. But they did seem very excited, which worries me. Hopefully they just want her out so they can get right.
Well. I shook the bees last Thursday and put in the new Queen. Went in today and she had been released. Pulled a frame and saw her, alive and well!!! Now let's hope they let her stay! Feels good to see her alive!!!
Glad to hear it worked out. She will bee fine.
Jim
Bravo! GOOD JOB.
...now exhale :wink:
Quote from: GSF on May 03, 2016, 09:00:31 AM
...now exhale :wink:
I still saw multiple eggs in cells yesterday, but I saw the queen so...
Was due for an inspection on my other hive so I popped the lid on the Laying Worker hive, 5 days after queen release. Saw her alive and well as well as eggs and larvae. Headed in the right direction!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160506/708588dcb0efcd3826137be9c6e6bc65.jpg)
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That's a good looking queen.
Well done! Healthy looking queen. What could have caused the multiple eggs in the cells like that? Sure was an interesting case.
Quote from: omnimirage on May 07, 2016, 05:55:39 AM
Well done! Healthy looking queen. What could have caused the multiple eggs in the cells like that? Sure was an interesting case.
Worker bees laying eggs due to hive being queenless. Not really what I wanted to deal with in one of my first 2 hives, but I learned a lot.
If you have another give you can combine and the new hive will take care of the laying worker.
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Quote from: Modenacart on May 07, 2016, 09:24:58 AM
If you have another give you can combine and the new hive will take care of the laying worker.
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Yes. That was gonna be my second option of they didn't accept the new queen. I really want to keep 2 hives, so I tried this first.
Quote from: Matt J on May 07, 2016, 09:53:57 AM
Quote from: Modenacart on May 07, 2016, 09:24:58 AM
If you have another give you can combine and the new hive will take care of the laying worker.
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Yes. That was gonna be my second option of they didn't accept the new queen. I really want to keep 2 hives, so I tried this first.
It you can get the queen great but that is not always the case and you have to make due. Happened to me last year. Also, when you see two or more eggs in a cell, don't wait. Assume it is a laying worker. The longer you wait the more bees die and the weaker the hive gets.
Quote from: Modenacart on May 07, 2016, 10:25:03 AM
Quote from: Matt J on May 07, 2016, 09:53:57 AM
Quote from: Modenacart on May 07, 2016, 09:24:58 AM
If you have another give you can combine and the new hive will take care of the laying worker.
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Yes. That was gonna be my second option of they didn't accept the new queen. I really want to keep 2 hives, so I tried this first.
It you can get the queen great but that is not always the case and you have to make due. Happened to me last year. Also, when you see two or more eggs in a cell, don't wait. Assume it is a laying worker. The longer you wait the more bees die and the weaker the hive gets.
That is if the multiple eggs are on the sides of the comb. If they are on the bottom of the cells, you probably have a new queen.
Jim