I got 5 packages on 14 Apr? 4 hives are doing great. One hive either killed their new queen or she is not bred. The photo is what I found today after finding larva a week ago. 3 frames of drone larva
Lots of newbie questions and concerns?
I spoke with my supplier and am going up Wednesday morning and get a queen. He told me to dump the hive at least 50 yards away since there are laying workers. Laying workers lose their ability to fly. At least that is the way I understand it. True?
While I take the hive away to be dumped my dad is going to put a new hive I prepare with the queen on the stand. The good flying workers will return to the new hive. Thats all I've worked out so far.
My concerns... it has been 25 days and they are starting fresh, it will be another 20+ days before brood the new queen lays will hatch.
Should I put a frame of capped brood from my strongest hive in the new hive? Or a couple?
You know how bees will pull wax on both sides of the frame that is next to the side of a hive but the queen usually only lays on the side away from the wood? The side next to the wood usually has pulled wax with nectar and pollen.
Maybe I can get 3 frames like this from 3 of my hives? The new hive will then have 1.5 frames of capped brood total and 1.5 frames of pulled wax with pollen/nectar.
Also, what about all the pollen and nectar stores that are in the hive now? Should I kill all the drones and put some of those frames in the new hive? How long does it take for larva/eggs to die on a frame out of the hive and not cared for?
Thoughts anyone?
After you dump them I would wait a day before putting the queen cage in. They may try to kill the new queen if they're not "queenless first". If there's not much in the way of population, you could skip the queen and just shake them and remove the hive. They will find a new hive to go to. Then when you feel your ready, you can split a strong hive.
Your concerns about your bees getting old are valid. Adding brood from your other hives is a good idea. Bee careful that you do not transfer a queen from one or more of those hives.
Laying workers, like laying queens put on extra weight while laying. That makes it harder to fly. I recommend dumping them further from the hive like 200 to 300'. They also are not field bees so they do not know where the hive is. Make sure you do not transport any bee back in the box when you bring it back.
Have the your dad have the hive ready before you start shaking his he bees out. They will be back real quick.
Since you are adding brood to the hive I would not worry about removing removing unless you have a lot more comb than the bees can protect.
You must gut want to remove frames that are mainly drone brood.
Jim
IT looks as strong as the day I put in the package (3lb) but this hive did have more dead loss than the others, so 9 to 10K bees. I'd hate to lose than many.
From what I have read I do not want the laying workers getting into another hive. Technically all my hives are weak. So taking them away and dumping the hive seems to be the best bet. I have no problem taking them a 1/2 mile away through the woods onto my cousins farm and dumping them there.
I would not try to take them more than 100 yards. Some of those bees are new field bees or bees that have to do house work longer than normal. You do not to go past their comfort zone. Just far enough that the laying workers cannot find their way back.
Jim
Should I dump the hive tomorrow, pick up the new queen Wednesday and put her in Thursday morning?
OK, too much I disagree with to stay quiet any longer. I have dumped many laying worker hives 6 feet in front of the original location and never had a problem. I would move the hive 10 feet out, put the new hive with queen in it's place, wait 1 to 2 hours for the queen's pheremones to permeate the hive, then dump the bees 10 feet in front of the hives. The new queen's pheremones, plus the new hive, will take care of the laying workers.Then go in 4 or more days later and release the queen.
I certainly don't have the experience that iddee has, but I've dumped laying workers out about 10-15 yards away and it didn't work. In the same action I added a queen cell to the hive only to find it tore out from the side later.
One thing that probably won't be a bad idea is to smoke that hive really well before you dump. My thinking is they bees will fill their bellies (thinking it's a forest fire). If they return to a different hive they'll stand a less of a chance of being rejected because of the nectar/honey they'll have.
Everything you ever wanted to know about laying workers but were afraid to ask:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm
First year Beek here as well. I dumped my laying worker hive almost 2 weeks ago. I went about 75 yards because that's as far as I could go in my neighborhood. Installed a new queen that morning but left the cork in the cage for a day. Then removed the cork the next day and 3 days later she was walking across the comb alive. She is still alive today, almost 2 weeks after install, but the hive does not appear to be doing well. The first brood I am seeing capped today appear to be drones. I don't know if laying workers made it back, or if I have a drone laying queen, etc. Also, they seem pretty slow to draw out comb. But they did accept my new queen. So, I still have a very weak hive, but I learned a lot, and was able to get a queen accepted.
Good luck with your hive. Hope this helps.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Matt J on May 10, 2016, 09:38:39 PM
First year Beek here as well. I dumped my laying worker hive almost 2 weeks ago. I went about 75 yards because that's as far as I could go in my neighborhood. Installed a new queen that morning but left the cork in the cage for a day. Then removed the cork the next day and 3 days later she was walking across the comb alive. She is still alive today, almost 2 weeks after install, but the hive does not appear to be doing well. The first brood I am seeing capped today appear to be drones. I don't know if laying workers made it back, or if I have a drone laying queen, etc. Also, they seem pretty slow to draw out comb. But they did accept my new queen. So, I still have a very weak hive, but I learned a lot, and was able to get a queen accepted.
Good luck with your hive. Hope this helps.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks, I just went back and read your thread on the ordeal. I have 5 hives which gives a few more options but just like you I still risk losing the hive anyway. I have one really strong hive, on day 16 there were 3 and half frames of capped brood which would have hatched by now. I'm thinking of swiping a frame of capped and uncapped from them to bolster the numbers in my drone hive. I'm going to switch around some nectar and pollen stores as well. Still flying by the seat of my pants... Thanks again...
I don't know about adding brood. Everything I've read said it helps, but David at Lookout Mtn said if I added brood and a queen, they would likely kill the queen and try to make their own. Everyone else said they'd kill the new queen if I tried to introduce one in a cage, and David said they would not.
I think adding a frame of uncapped brood each week for 3 weeks is the best way to convert a laying worker hive. But I didn't have that option. I have another hive that is doing good, but I didn't want to mess with it.
Shaking laying workers seems to not be the best option, but I had access to a new queen, and I didn't have any other option. Who knows what's right or wrong, everyone's got different opinions. I just weighed the options, and picked the one that fit my situation best.
Also, From reading one of your past posts, I think we got our bees from the same place. I'm in the Birmingham area. Got them from Lookout Mt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Matt J on May 10, 2016, 10:15:02 PM
I don't know about adding brood. Everything I've read said it helps, but David at Lookout Mtn said if I added brood and a queen, they would likely kill the queen and try to make their own. Everyone else said they'd kill the new queen if I tried to introduce one in a cage, and David said they would not.
I think adding a frame of uncapped brood each week for 3 weeks is the best way to convert a laying worker hive. But I didn't have that option. I have another hive that is doing good, but I didn't want to mess with it.
Shaking laying workers seems to not be the best option, but I had access to a new queen, and I didn't have any other option. Who knows what's right or wrong, everyone's got different opinions. I just weighed the options, and picked the one that fit my situation best.
Also, From reading one of your past posts, I think we got our bees from the same place. I'm in the Birmingham area. Got them from Lookout Mt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep, I'll be seeing David tomorrow. Between here and FB I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice also, confusing. I didn?t make my plan with David on the phone but will go through it with him tomorrow. It?s his queen? so.
He?s giving a ?free? all day bee class this Saturday, bring your lunch and a chair, in case you haven?t heard.
Yup. I wanted to go to his class, but have to work.
For me it's 360 miles round trip... twice in one week at my age? going to try it though... need the knowledge.
Quote from: Peanut on May 10, 2016, 11:40:39 PM
For me it's 360 miles round trip... twice in one week at my age? going to try it though... need the knowledge.
Wow! That's a lot of driving for a bug! Ha.
Between here and FB I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice also
It's been said, "The only thing that two out of three beekeepers agree on is that the 3rd one is wrong."
Wish yall were closer by, I could help you out a lot. My bees exploded again this year and I would gladly give yall some resources. I'm trying to sell some off but I think now is bad timing.
Quote from: GSF on May 11, 2016, 08:21:37 AM
Between here and FB I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice also
It's been said, "The only thing that two out of three beekeepers agree on is that the 3rd one is wrong."
Wish yall were closer by, I could help you out a lot. My bees exploded again this year and I would gladly give yall some resources. I'm trying to sell some off but I think now is bad timing.
If you have something that could help my bad hive, it might be worth a drive for me.
Hey Matt, PM me.
>but David at Lookout Mtn said if I added brood and a queen...
Don't waste a queen on a laying worker hive. A frame of eggs every week for three weeks will fix it and won't cost other hives anything. A queen can lay 3,000 eggs a day. Most hives can't take care of that many. The donor hive will quickly replace the eggs. They have little invested.
This is what my supplier recommended and it worked for Matt J? I got a new queen today. I put her in a new hive in between a couple of new frames but didn?t pull the cork.
I dumped my problem hive. Most of the bees beat me back to the new hive. I made sure no bees were clinging to the components. There were 4 frames of stored honey, pollen and nectar with drone brood in the old hive. I put those in the new hive. There were a few bees on the queen cage but they didn?t appear aggressive. I put the cover on and left them alone. I?ll open the hive tomorrow and if all appears calm I?ll pull the cork and scratch the candy. Then check in four days.
One more detail. I returned to the spot where I dumped the hive an hour later. There were 8 or 10 bees crawling around so I stepped on them just in case they were the laying workers.
If this works or fails I'll post back.
Anxious to hear how it goes. Sounds exactly as I did. When I pulled the cork, the cage was covered with bees. I watched Michael Palmer's video on YouTube about how to tell if they will accept her. Basically, he say if they are extending their probiscus, and you can lightly brush them off the cage with the back of your finger, it is a good sign. He says if you can't brush them off, and they are stuck to the cage like Velcro, they probably will not. Mine were acting as though they would accept her, so I went ahead and pulled the cork. If they had been acting aggressively, I probably would've waited another day.
https://youtu.be/RX3BgnOkozs
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Matt J on May 11, 2016, 11:13:21 PM
Anxious to hear how it goes. Sounds exactly as I did. When I pulled the cork, the cage was covered with bees. I watched Michael Palmer's video on YouTube about how to tell if they will accept her. Basically, he say if they are extending their probiscus, and you can lightly brush them off the cage with the back of your finger, it is a good sign. He says if you can't brush them off, and they are stuck to the cage like Velcro, they probably will not. Mine were acting as though they would accept her, so I went ahead and pulled the cork. If they had been acting aggressively, I probably would've waited another day.
Thanks for the share. I hadn't seen this video. By the way, there is a 4 year beekeeper in Trussville I know on FB, lots of resources if you are on the NE side of Birmingham. If you are on FB message me...
>This is what my supplier recommended and it worked for Matt J?
There are a lot of things that sometimes work... there are only a few that work 100% of the time.
Update? I opened the hive late this afternoon to see how the new queen (in the cage) was being treated. She had a couple dozen attendants on the outside of her cage that I could easily move with my finger, they were taking care of her. I popped the cork, raked the candy and put her back in.
I had hung her cage off the side of a new wedge frame. What bothered me was the lack of activity on that frame. All the rest of the bees were on the old drone brood. It was only after I closed the hive (a while after) did I realize I should have put old frames on each side of her, Make her the center of activity.
I will open the hive in the morning and do just that. It will take less than 30 seconds. Fingers still crossed?
Can this get any stranger? This morning, after uncorking the queen cage last evening, I find pupa on the hive porch and on the ground in front of the hive. There were a total of 8 pupa on the ground plus one on the porch makes 9.
The only pupa in this hive were laid by the laying workers. Obviously, pupa are being destroyed and dumped by the bees. Now that there is a queen in the hive, can this be the reason? Are they destroying what was done by the laying workers?
4 pupa in the second photo...
I personally but I followed Michael Bush advice on his link. See you had a yard with more than one beehive just dump the bees out on the ground. Divide equipment up in the other hives. And go home. Another thing you could have done . Set a new nuc in the place of the original hive . Transfer the nuc to a ten frame hive. Dump the original Hive on the ground in front . Now go back and put some extra frames in that you shaking the bees off of. In my opinion everything else is a waste of time and money. Too much distance between yards. And no the bees are not at home. I always have a couple of nucs in never yard I go to .
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I'm only guessing.., making room for worker brood? Hygienic behavior - (mites)? Chilled?
Now that they are queen right they no longer want to produce drones because they are not at full strength. They now have a chance of adding enough honey to the hive to be able to make it through the winter but not if they are spending all of their energy to support the old queens drones.
Yes they are the old queens genetics that laid the worker eggs.
Jim
Well. My Laying Worker hive is crashing fast. Very few bees. Just a tiny bit of drone brood. Not drawing out any comb. Queen is still there, but the bees just aren't doing anything. Not taking syrup either. I think I'm just gonna have to write this one off. Sucks, I really wanted to have 2 hives my first year. Oh well, maybe I can find a Nuc for sale.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks everyone!
I watched my problem hive off and on all day. They were constantly bringing in pollen and nectar. I have a little stool by the hive so I can sit and watch what they are bringing in. I had to move it right away because the bees were running into me. I then realized what they were working. My Catawba trees are in full bloom (Catalpa bignonioides).
I?m satisfied they have accepted the queen. She should be free by Monday morning. That will be day 33 since I installed the package. If she starts laying that day it will be day 54 before any brood hatches. I don?t want the numbers to get to low.
Next Thursday will be the 5 week inspection day for my other 4 hives. Maybe I can swipe a good frame of capped brood from one of the other hives. Hopefully that will give them the bump in numbers to keep them going so they can recover from this ordeal.
Sorry about your hive Matt J.
Congratulations Peanut.
I think adding a frame of capped brood is a great idea and will help them at a crucial time.
Jim