This is the hive which I started late summer. They only were on a few frames, I was concerned about their food, so gave them some sugar water before winter. Then it looked they were basically empty so added an empty box to put dry sugar on top of the frames through the winter. Mid April, they still had empty space in the bottom, noticed not the best brood pattern. I thought about taking the top box off, but worried that would upset their "plans"? So I added empty frames to it. (Foundationless) By first of May, noticed nice brood pattern, still space in the bottom, and not started in the top. A week later, 8 frames of the bottom 8 frame box had brood. Moved one frame up to the still empty top box. Middle of May they had 2 additional frames going with brood in the top box. That's when I noticed a queen cup. Which looked like it had an egg in it.
Now I've heard they start them and tear them down. But would they tear down one with an egg in it? Then I checked again Sunday, and the cup is now a cell. I checked through the bottom and found several queen cells, mostly along the bottom area, some in the middle. None were capped, but one was narrowing towards the end. I looked through and could not find the queen. I did see eggs in the top box and checked it again for the queen, but no luck. So many bees, hard to see the comb. And it was getting late. I didn't know what to do, so closed it back up, but worried I was going to lose half or more of my bees. Then I started thinking, if I just moved half to a new box, I would only lose a quarter of the bees. Why, if I moved them into three boxes, then I'd only lose 1/6 of my bees. Am I thinking right? So early Monday, I split the 12 frames up into 3 boxes. More than one cell in each. Still didn't see the queen, but there were still eggs. So many bees!
Questions:
Why did they create queen cells with plenty of, at least upper space, throughout most of the winter?
What will happen, assuming the queen is still there somewhere, when one of the 4 frame box's queen cells hatch out with the queen in it? Will they take half the 4 frames of bees and leave? Or could the queen kill the queen cell before it hatches? How often should I keep looking through trying to find the queen?
With my other 1 box hive, I had added an empty box of empty frames to it. I noticed their bottom box is full now, so I moved one frame of brood up to the top box. Is this what you have to do, to suggest they can use the top box when there's just empty frames up there?
(The more I do bees, the more it seems like an art rather than a science!)
They were full on the drawn frames they had available, that started the swarm. The bees will draw out comb on their own schedule. Your splits should stay put maybe. When you move frames up, move two up with a foundation less frame between. Better chance of drawing it out.
Leave them alone until the queen should be laying.
>Why did they create queen cells with plenty of, at least upper space, throughout most of the winter?
If the queen is honey/nectar bound they will start the swarming process especially this time of year. Remember swarming is how they reproduce.
>What will happen, assuming the queen is still there somewhere, when one of the 4 frame box's queen cells hatch out with the queen in it? Will they take half the 4 frames of bees and leave? Or could the queen kill the queen cell before it hatches? How often should I keep looking through trying to find the queen?
Provided the bees feel that they now have enough room the first queen that hatches wil kill the rest. A queen cell is capped in 7 days and hatches 7 days later +/- a day. So I would leave them be for at least two weeks maybe 3. Give the queen(s) time to get mated and start laying.
How bad do you want to find the queen and save her if she is still there? Do you know what a shaker box is?
Quote from: Duane on May 24, 2016, 09:20:21 PM
How often should I keep looking through trying to find the queen?
Where did that get you? What will you do if you find her?
Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.
Quote from: Acebird on May 25, 2016, 08:39:53 AM
Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.
I like that!
Ok, it seems like there was no place for the queen to lay so they are swarming. Still not sure why they didn't create new space in the top box for the queen to lay. But now I know I need to move frames up, or have empty comb above. The other box, by moving one frame up, I added an empty below, so that should hold them a couple of days. I'm wondering, that although people say they move up or down, but if there's no comb up or down, they move sideways until the hit the edges and then they think they're done. And maybe, leaving them in an upper box after the winter, they will move down easier than up?
Anyway, I've read about the shaker boxes, but I don't have a queen excluder. Not sure I would want to go to that extreme anyway. If I find her, I would remove the queen cells from that box. But my question is, the one with the queen and only 4 frames of brood and a queen cell, will she still leave?
Quote from: Duane on May 25, 2016, 10:12:22 AM
But my question is, the one with the queen and only 4 frames of brood and a queen cell, will she still leave?
Probably not. But sometimes bees don't follow the rules.
Quote from: Duane on May 25, 2016, 10:12:22 AM
I'm wondering, that although people say they move up or down, but if there's no comb up or down, they move sideways until the hit the edges and then they think they're done.
Remember that it is a colony and the colony makes the decisions not the queen. If they have decided to make queen cells they have decided to swarm and changing their mind is not easy. They don't necessarily have to fill out all the side frames to make that decision. It is far easier to prevent the situations that encourage swarming then to stop one. The only way the broodnest gets filled up is if the bees are backfilling with nectar. It will not be capped because when they swarm they will consume that nectar and thereby create space for the new queen.
Splits work to some degree because essentially you are making man made swarms.
I didn't really notice much nectar. Just brood from side to side. Am I missing something? Like I imagine by "backfilling", it means that as the brood hatch out, they fill the frames with nectar. I didn't see that.
I think we need pictures of each hive separately to sort out what you have. I would say it is unusual for a colony to fill a hive with brood and have no food source. And then make a plan to swarm??? These are variables I am not familiar with.
Quote from: Acebird on May 25, 2016, 08:39:53 AM
Where did that get you? What will you do if you find her?
Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.
I must have missed something in the translation of the long original post... I would put her in a split without cells...in particular if she is a good queen... did I miss something?
You might have missed, that I haven't found her. And if I did, I would put her in a box without the cells. But what do I do in the meantime, I split them anyway. Now if I look through the three boxes, there should be no eggs. So if I find eggs, then I know where the queen is. However, several suggested I leave them alone. I'm thinking about at least switching positions to even out the workforce. The cells should have almost a week before hatching.
As far as food source, they had some honey cells among the brood, but it seemed to me it was a hand to mouth thing, no excess.
Quote from: Duane on May 26, 2016, 06:02:27 PM
You might have missed, that I haven't found her. And if I did, I would put her in a box without the cells. But what do I do in the meantime, I split them anyway. Now if I look through the three boxes, there should be no eggs. So if I find eggs, then I know where the queen is. However, several suggested I leave them alone. I'm thinking about at least switching positions to even out the workforce. The cells should have almost a week before hatching.
As far as food source, they had some honey cells among the brood, but it seemed to me it was a hand to mouth thing, no excess.
No I didn't miss it. Replier stated Where did that get you? What will you do if you find her?
Put her in a nuc by herself that where it would get you...
SC he has already put her in a nuc by herself and hasn't found her yet. Do you see how easy a solution that was?
LOL
Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.
Well said Acebird.. So.... has anyone figured out all the variables yet??? LOL
Quote from: OldMech on May 26, 2016, 07:41:04 PM
So.... has anyone figured out all the variables yet??? LOL
Absolutely not otherwise why would we all be here discussing what we think the variables are?
Dont know why that posted.. was not done typing.. finished and it would not let me post??? odd.. anyhow...
Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.
Well said Acebird.. So.... has anyone figured out all the variables yet??? LOL
I don't think you did a bad thing... As Acebird said.. there are SO MANY Variables... If you broke the hives down, the bees with the queen "may" tear down the queen cells, they "may" still swarm... I have made a nuc with a queen and several frames of brood as an artificial swarm to keep them from swarming, and four days later they swarmed anyhow.. the entire nuc with the old queen, leaving about a dozen bees behind with the brood... No eggs... That one left me scratching my head.
As I see it, you have played the odds.. It is how I manage my bees.. Reduce the odds to the best of my ability, and deal with what comes after that. You did this, you have done what you can.. Have you considered that they DID swarm already since you cant find the queen? It is possible, though they usually wait until at least a couple cells are capped before swarming, it is by no means a rule they follow.
IF.. you lose a swarm, you have still gained and extra hive, maybe two!
QuoteHavent found the end of the comfort zone yet.
I just noticed this. If you are looking for comfort I suggest Southern with a little ice. Sip it slowly until you feel the comfort. MM good. Not to much though if you are working your bees. They don't like a clumsy beekeeper.
Yes, I had thought they may have already swarmed. I am hoping not. I did see eggs, so only missed it by days.
That is interesting that bees will leave a nuc with brood behind without a chance of raising their own queen because they had made up their minds to swarm. So I guess nothing is absolute. At that rate, I might really need to put the queen in a nuc by herself! But then who knows, they may swarm without a queen, huh?
About queen cups and cells. Are you saying they may tear them down even with an egg or larva in them? Just wanting to know what it means when I see it.
For them to leave, there had to be a queen, either laying or virgin. Once they decide to swarm, they will swarm, unless made to think they DID swarm.
What about absconding? Will they abscond without a queen? If they are escaping something like small hive beetles, they will abscond, but I don't know if they require a queen in the absconding mass. Any evidence either way?
Deleted
Deleted duplicate post....heck no one is reading the first one I posted anyway :shocked::tongue: :wink:
Quote from: Acebird on May 26, 2016, 07:15:31 PM
SC he has already put her in a nuc by herself and hasn't found her yet. Do you see how easy a solution that was?
Am I being bull headed :shocked: No I don't see how easy that was....she was not in a box by herself, In a box with cells. Big difference....IMHO...But I agree OP did what was best at the time. But no Ace I don't understand your comment:
Quote from: Duane on May 24, 2016, 09:20:21 PM
How often should I keep looking through trying to find the queen?
Where did that get you? What will you do if you find her?
>So early Monday, I split the 12 frames up into 3 boxes. More than one cell in each. Still didn't see the queen, but there were still eggs<
A queen in a box with cells. Somebody loses. Queen in a spit with cells they may still swarm. In particular because they were already in swarm mode. Maybe it is just me? Done with this post anyway, moving on :wink:
Nothing with bees is absolute, but making them feel like they did swarm is about playing the odds.. You have a better chance of keeping them if they think they did swarm.. on the order of 90% better chance. Normally when I do an artificial swarm they stay, but there have been a couple times they did not..
Ace, I do Rum and Coke, Diet Cherry Zero, because the rum is sweet, regular coke is too sweet for me, and then use Captain Morgan black ... and yeah, it really helps with the comfort zone!!!
Well, I couldn't help it but had to look at them. I looked in the first one and lots of bees. I gently was blowing on them to try and see the cells and look for eggs. Instantly, there were several on my veil right where my mouth was. I didn't use smoke, thinking I didn't need it, but maybe I did. No eggs, but did see the cells. Went to the next box, and happened to breath on them before pulling any frames, and several flew up at me. No eggs, but did see the cells. I opened the third box and seemed like a few less bees, all were calm, a lot different than the other two. I pulled a frame and saw eggs! Then found the queen on the next frame. I might have messed up (originally) as I found no queen cells in this one, only the queen cup. But no egg in it now. But it didn't need a queen cell, so that turned out pretty nicely. Is this an example of when there's no queen, the bees are a bit more feisty?
Given this time of year, the main flow starting on, and an extra queen cell in one of the boxes, would it be a good thing or bad thing to try and get an additional box out of them? Like, maybe three frames each instead of four?
Quote from: Duane on May 29, 2016, 10:10:45 AM
Given this time of year, the main flow starting on, and an extra queen cell in one of the boxes, would it be a good thing or bad thing to try and get an additional box out of them? Like, maybe three frames each instead of four?
Would be no issue at all. Get what you can. In particular since your flow is in front of you. Are the cells close yet?
Quote from: Duane on May 29, 2016, 10:10:45 AM
Is this an example of when there's no queen, the bees are a bit more feisty?
It could be or it could also be the CO2 from your breath. Nice job by the way.
I too blow on them to get them moving. Yep the carbon dioxide is what they key in on. Ever notice how they go straight to your face :shocked:
The instant reaction when you blow in the hive comes from thousands of years of bears sticking my their heads in the hive and breathing in there as they take a bite of brood. That instant reaction has probably saved a hive be or two over the years.
Jim
If I remember correctly, I saw one cell that was capped. I take it that I have a little less than 8 days from then.
I was wondering about the breathing on them. With my previous attempt at keeping bees, I never noticed that. These two nucs behaved differently, with one more so. I thought about if it was possible to breed that out of them. But then any varmint sticking his nose in the hive could get away with it. So I guess all the more reason to always wear a face veil. I'd like to be bold, but the thought of being stung in the mouth is not appealing. The more defensive hive I was messing with and then moved away to take off my suit and a bee came looking for me. I quickly pulled the veil back over my head, but had already taken off my gloves. The bee just buzzed around my hands, but was more interested in my face. I even wiggled my hands in front of her but she didn't seem interested in stinging them. Never landed on my veil, but when I blew on her, she seemed more aggressive.
Anyway, regarding the hive I moved the queen out of April 14, about 45 days ago, and no queen cells raised, of which I added more eggs and still no queen cell. Now there's a capped queen cell, in the middle of a frame that's been in the box from the beginning. There's still some capped drone brood. The only thought I have was there were two laying queens, I happened to move the younger laying one to a new box, and the old failing queen was laying drone eggs, and finally managed to lay one worker egg. Which somehow, the bees decided was good enough and didn't see the need of raising more from the eggs I added. Any more reasonable thoughts of what might have happened?
If you want the bees to move put a "little" smoke on them or gently touch them with the back of your hand.
Quote from: GSF on May 31, 2016, 04:20:23 PM
If you want the bees to move put a "little" smoke on them or gently touch them with the back of your hand.
Back of your hand ??? .. heck the tips of my fat fingers are less sensitive than the back of my hands :cheesy:
I think that was his point, but I don't know that for sure. Not the back pf MY hand, though.
Nope, the back of your hand :) Do it gently as in excuse me please. I've never got stung that way. I can't think of any other way that I haven't never got stung, everyway but that one.
Quote from: GSF on June 01, 2016, 11:08:52 AM
Nope, the back of your hand :) Do it gently as in excuse me please. I've never got stung that way.
My mitts are too big and shaky for that. It would be like dropping a 50 ton crane out of the sky.. :shocked:
Thinking back through this, and looking at my other hive, I'm not sure I understand the space issue.
If someone had foundation frames, had a box getting full of bees, and put the next box on with just the foundation, would they move up or would they need to have frames moved up? That is, is my issue empty frames without an easy way for the bees to walk up, whereas if I had empty comb, they should have been alright?
I have the other hive that is looking pretty much similar. The bottom box is full of brood. I have pulled a few frames up, with an empty frame between them. But they don't seem to be doing much other than making brood. The sweet clover is looking towards half done and I'm don't see any honey for the winter in any of the hives.
They will do what they want. It's hard sometimes. Is the hive really populated?
A packed hive seems to draw comb better. But they won't make it if they feel they don't need it.
Yes it was pretty full of bees, they're hanging outside the box. Afraid they're going to swarm. I used all my frames up on the other boxes so now I'm making boxes and getting frames.
I have found larva in all three new splits. The 4th with the queen has all 8 frames with brood again! And last week seems like they just had 5 frames. I added another box and moved a frame up. I should have moved 2, but when your finger is hurting and starting to swell, sometimes you just want to get done with it and don't think clearly...
I'm starting to think I have a few bees. Not all are doing the best. But who knows, maybe I'm learning a few things.
I had split the swarming hive into 4 separate hives. One of the hives did not have eggs as soon as I expected nor the others. So the next time I went to look at them, I cut out some eggs from one of the others and was going to insert it. But they already had eggs and I saw the queen. Then a little less than 3 weeks later, no eggs, no brood, no queen. But several capped queen cells! They were up in the comb, not at the bottom.
What's some possibilities of what happened? I suppose one is that I accidentally killed her.
Quote from: Duane on July 11, 2016, 07:07:18 PM
I had split the swarming hive into 4 separate hives.
When? It takes over a month for a hive to reestablish laying from a new queen. It is getting late.
QuoteWhat's some possibilities of what happened? I suppose one is that I accidentally killed her.
To which one of the four splits? Cells in the middle of a frame might suggest a supercedure.
...or the bees killed her because she was a fluke.
Quote from: Acebird on July 11, 2016, 09:38:45 PM
Quote from: Duane on July 11, 2016, 07:07:18 PM
I had split the swarming hive into 4 separate hives.
When? It takes over a month for a hive to reestablish laying from a new queen. It is getting late.
May 23. About a month later, there were eggs. End of last week no eggs but queen cells.
QuoteQuoteWhat's some possibilities of what happened? I suppose one is that I accidentally killed her.
To which one of the four splits? Cells in the middle of a frame might suggest a supercedure.
Not sure what you're asking. The second one?
Quote from: GSF on July 12, 2016, 08:30:41 AM
...or the bees killed her because she was a fluke.
So they actually kill her as in sting her or just starve her to death? And they'd do that before the new queen hatches out? I hear some cases where there are two queens at once when the old one is failing.
Duane, it could be one way or the other or both. I've read and heard folks say before - that the new queen went missing not long (weeks) after she started laying. Number of reasons this happens. I've found two queens several times in one hive. Neither looked to be skinny either.