Here are 2 pictures taken 4 days apart of the same frame. One picture was taken on June 6th and one on June 10th. One picture the QC is clearly capped but in the other picture I am not sure. Could everyone look at these 2 pictures and give me a time line on when the queen may emerge. I was thinking she should emerge 18th or 19th of June but it may be sooner then that.
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I would guess she will emerge on June 16 0r 17, but that's only a guess. I would not open the hive again before June 22 or later.
Quote from: iddee on June 14, 2016, 10:27:09 PM
I would guess she will emerge on June 16 0r 17, but that's only a guess. I would not open the hive again before June 22 or later.
Thanks Iddee.........I think the 16 or 17 is closer to being right. I have not opened the hive sense the split and will not until around the 30th of June.
Why are you in this hive 4 days apart.
It is hard to tell but it looks like it is capped. For the next 6 days the queen pupa's ovaries and very prone to damage. Even flipping the frames can hurt her.
After she hatches, she needs to be left alone to have time to mate and prove her self as a good layer.
I would not do another inspection for another 3 weeks so that she will have at least a frame of wet brood.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 14, 2016, 11:21:28 PM
Why are you in this hive 4 days apart.
It is hard to tell but it looks like it is capped. For the next 6 days the queen pupa's ovaries and very prone to damage. Even flipping the frames can hurt her.
After she hatches, she needs to be left alone to have time to mate and prove her self as a good layer.
I would not do another inspection for another 3 weeks so that she will have at least a frame of wet brood.
Jim
The first inspection show QC...... I went in 4 days later to verify if they had been capped or not. They had. I did a 50/50 split of the hive on June 10 the day I found the capped queen cells. I have not been in to the hive sense June 10 but my next inspection is scheduled for June 30th.
Next 6 days starting when? 6 days from the 10th or 6 days from today?
The queen pupa is most vonerable the first 6 days after being capped.
Jim
I think what Jim is trying to get across is at the moment you saw the queen cells (larvae in the cup) is when you should have done the splits. It is water of the dam now but in the future don't wait until the cell is capped.
Quote from: Acebird on June 15, 2016, 09:19:34 AM
I think what Jim is trying to get across is at the moment you saw the queen cells (larvae in the cup) is when you should have done the splits. It is water of the dam now but in the future don't wait until the cell is capped.
I will explain why I did what I did. Being new I did not realize the real significance of a queen cup. On the first inspection when I found the queen cups I only looked at 4 of them on the same frame. Those 4 cups did not have eggs in them. The next frame I showed in the picture above I thought was the same and did not check it thoroughly as I should have until a few days latter when looking at the pictures I took. Guess what the one that developed into a cell was the one I did not pay attention too. When I did the split the frame with the 4 queen cups were still just queen cups but going deeper into the hive than I had perviously show me a lot more queen cells that I was unaware of previously.
What I have learned from this is confusing in a way. If you find queen cups in a hive, at that point do you due a complete inspection or do you go just as far as the first queen cups and put things back together then check back in a few days as I did? Had I went into the second box on my first inspection I may have found capped queen cells at that point, and did the split then.
Again information on these site are confusing and the whole picture is rarely revealed until its to late! When I asked about superceded cups people said it is normal and usually they tear them down in a few days. They said just check back in a 3 to 5 days and make sure they don't develop into cells which I did.
Its not that the information on the site is confusing...its that every situation is different. And almost every colony has a personality of its own which makes it hard to pigeonhole. Its impossible to give hard and fast absolute answers that will cover every situation.
Lots of variables that coudl affect how you react to what you saw...
1. Time of Year
2. Age of colony
3. long term existing queen or recently replaced and or package
4. size of brood chamber
5. available laying space or honeybound
What you did wasn't wrong and we all second guess ourselves when the bees do something unexpected...learn from it as best you can and move on to the next teachable moment....and lord knows there are plenty of those.....almost every day they do something that surprises me and I file it away in the "what the hell did i just see file"
Quote from: KeyLargoBees on June 15, 2016, 12:09:41 PM
Its impossible to give hard and fast absolute answers that will cover every situation.
You got that right.
I really have an issue with feeding when you are a newbie because it induces bees to do things they wouldn't do if left to forage on their own. As a newbie you haven't learned yet what bees do so there is no way to tell what you see is normal or not because you are putting the hive in a not normal situation. Assuming you get your bees in the spring most areas of this country have enough forage for the (swarm or nuc) to make do. Many people disagree with me but I think a newbie can learn what bees do a lot better if they let the bees do it. First year beekeeping is an observing year not a doing year. The only thing you should be doing is providing space, not too fast and not too slow. If you can master that then you can get more hives and experiment the next year.
ace
QuoteAssuming you get your bees in the spring most areas of this country have enough forage for the (swarm or nuc) to make do.
I am seeing if you are right about this. So far I have two swarms on foundationless that have one medium each about drawn out. I have really tried to put them to the test by breaking/ruining enough comb while trying to keep it strait to make it interresting for them.
I should have three mediums for my location not just one.
I haven't been able to make myself feed either due to lazyness or fear of robbing or just a mean streak. I am new and have no ideal of what I am looking at even when seeing it. To get them to work the next box I have split the brood nest by pulling one from the center up by itself into the second medium. Not sure if the is good but they do move up with the frame.
I did combine a late swarm two weeks ago with the smaller earlier swarm to try and give them some help. I have got in the hives lots more then I thought I would cause I have no experiance on how fast bees build comb and when to add space.
I have not looked for eggs or larva but try to see capped brood cause atleast my eyes are good enough for that.
I mostly look at comb shape and space and let them do what they want with my fingers crossed in the hopes it will work out.
My question is, am I becoming a real bee keeper doing it this way or just a bee haver?
I am too cheep to spend money so I hope something lives through winter. Hope hope.
Cheers
gww
Ps I have not dug deep enough or remembered to look for a queen cell even one time while in the hive. I have remembered that I didn't look on the way back to the house after closing the hive. You guys say make the split right when you first see the cell before it is capped?
GWW, relax and enjoy the bees this summer.You will still have the boxes for swarms next spring. Maybe you'll take better care of them next year.
>My question is, am I becoming a real bee keeper doing it this way or just a bee haver?
Does it really matter what you call yourself? The only thing you really have to do is give them enough room to be able to make it through the winter. The rest is up to the bees.
>Ps I have not dug deep enough or remembered to look for a queen cell even one time while in the hive. I have remembered that I didn't look on the way back to the house after closing the hive. You guys say make the split right when you first see the cell before it is capped?
Since your bees are from swarms, I would assume that, as long as you give them enough room to grow, you wouldn't see many queen cells. Possibly a supercedure cell if they want to replace the queen if she is failing.
Its not that the information on the site is confusing...its that every situation is different. And almost every colony has a personality of its own which makes it hard to pigeonhole
Well said.
Iddee
QuoteMaybe you'll take better care of them next year.
If I had any ideal of what better care is I might even do it this year. I feel pretty dumb but still sit out side the entrance every morning and look at the trafic in and out.
cao
QuoteSince your bees are from swarms, I would assume that, as long as you give them enough room to grow, you wouldn't see many queen cells. Possibly a supercedure cell if they want to replace the queen if she is failing.
If I have any bees left come spring, was the advice to the original poster to move the cell before it was capped and as soon as you see it due to it being fragile for the first six days after being capped? I will probly not face such a situation but am trying to learn for when I might be faced with it some day.
You guys are great.
gww
When I catch a swarm I wait 3 days and then give them som sugar water as they have no stores and .it will encourage them to draw comb.Can you imagine moving into a house with nothing?Please help the girls out!
When I catch a swarm I feed them till it's about all drawn out - which is usually 10 days this year.
With a package, I feed until they have drawn the first box. With a swarm, I feed them 2 to 4 quarts. A package comes before the flow, ""hopefully". A swarm comes during the flow and only needs feed until they orientate.
I start both on foundation or drawn comb, then insert foundationless between drawn comb. That way, I don't throw away half their summer's work.
Quote from: gww on June 16, 2016, 11:18:59 AM
If I have any bees left come spring, was the advice to the original poster to move the cell before it was capped and as soon as you see it due to it being fragile for the first six days after being capped? I will probly not face such a situation but am trying to learn for when I might be faced with it some day.
Yes that was the advice. Move the queen cell before capped if possible. If it is already capped, you can move it just be careful with it.
I caught two swarms on the 7th of may. I put in empty boxes with foundationless frames. I have no foundation or drawn comb to relie on. It took the bigger of the two swarms about 5 weeks to fill the lower medium to about 80%. The smaller one was at about 60%. I caught a simular or even bigger swarm about two weeks ago and paper combined it with the small swarm.
I did not feed and mostly watched traffic at the entrance and the bigger swarm had strong traffic. The swarms both built about a quarters worth on four or five frames pretty quick. The bigger one filled everything as they built it with nector while the smaller one had some comb built that wasn't filled but from the beginning had one quarter frame full of nector.
I didn't think they were starving and had read that you didn't nessisarily have to feed swarms and the one and only time I ever tried to feed a hive I started robbing and it didn't end well. I had one bought double hive with lots of bees and these two swarms sitting right nest to each other and they seem to be keeping to themselves the way it is.
I had read lots of poeple who said their swarm or package built out a box in a week and didn't know if what I had was good or bad as I have never seen a 3 lb package and have no point of referance to know even what I am dealing with size wise.
I put a medium empty on the double medium hive I had bought and the bees didn't touch it for a week. I pulled a brood frame up and in a week the bees had built a frame on each side of what I had pulled up. I am trying to get my timing down so I can do more with out looking as much.
The bees keep surprizing me though. I tiped the top on the one that I pulled the brood up on with the three frames built and it has only been 2/3 days and now the box is over 60% drawn and I am wondering if I will even make the next three or four days before I have to add another box.
It is hot and no rain and the flow surly has to slow down quick. I have another swarm in a trap that I am sure is probly not very big and I am thinking of leaving it in the trap for about a month and moving it to dads when the soy beans bloom just cause it have been in the trap long enough that I am not sure I can move it only 100 yards with out losing all the foragers.
If I paper combined them and they had to go through the hive they were added to would I lose the foragers?
I have the second box on both swarms now and on one I pulled up my straitest brood frame from the middle of the lower box and the other I just rubberbanded a couple of peices of comb that broke while transfering the swarm I combined.
I hope I learn something during this year and if feeding gets a box drawn in 11 days compared to 5 weeks, I probly should have fed. However, if the swarms live through the winter, I will probly do it the same way next year depending on what I am seeing rain and stuff.
cao
Thank you for answering my question.
I have no ideal yet what is good or bad.
gww
About the only thing you and I disagree on is the foundationless. I keep wired foundation at all times and even cross wire it and embed it. Once drawn out, I even cross wire my foundationless frames and press two drawn frames on each side of it. Then my foundationless is strong and perfectly straight.
Remember, ask 10 beekeepers how they do something and you will get 10 ways to do it. ALL ARE CORRECT.
Iddee
I don't know that we dissagree on anything. You have years of experiance and I have never saw a hive before and mostly only have you tube and internet and just really recently a guy that let me stand with him a couple of times while he went through a couple hives.
I only got into the ideal of bees when I retired and was looking for things that interest me and keep me busy and at home. I live on 20 acres and thought a milk cow was too much work.
I am cheep and so did it in a way that cost nothing but time till I can see if I have any tallent for it.
I have built for two winters and only have enough stuff built for about 6/8 full hives and some traps. I am so slow but have the time due to being lucky enough to be retired.
Every thing you say I listen to and try to decide if I am too lazy or not to put it into play.
I might be wiring frames some day but am a very slow learner on how to actually do stuff.
Every peice of advice you throw out gets thought about, is apretiated and may even be done some day.
Cheers
gww
It is not really good to do paper combine swarms if you leave the queens to fight it out. You could lose both.
It is not really the same thing when you take swarms and put them in a box and every week go in tear down and restructure the comb because it isn't straight. There is no way for anyone to know what resources these bees have not seeing your hives. That being said I have taken a package and 2 nucs, given them straight foundation or comb and they have expanded in to full blown hives without feed. But I didn't have to wreck what they built so they would have to start over or repair.
gww
Now assuming your swarms make it through winter you might get to see swarm cells next year. When you purchase a queen one of the advantages you get is the breeding out of the swarm impulse. It still happens but it is no ware as strong as a native swarm.
Ace
QuoteIt is not really good to do paper combine swarms if you leave the queens to fight it out. You could lose both
I have heard this but have also read on randy olivers site and other places that usually if you let the bees pick, they pick the best one. I was thinking that if one was a virgin when the combine happened that the virgin would probly win. I do feel lucky that I have that other swarm still sitting in the trap "just in case", Though I might not know I am queenless till to late since at this time I can only see caped brood and have not yet developed a tallent for seeing eggs and larva.
QuoteNow assuming your swarms make it through winter you might get to see swarm cells next year. When you purchase a queen one of the advantages you get is the breeding out of the swarm impulse.
I would not doubt that these bees could be wild or could be from someones managed hive. I will have to see how it goes. I am not much on buying anything if I can make it work but willing to if I get to frusterated. The one hive I bought was from a local who I believe has mutts too. I want to some day get some honey for my time but not so much that I have to work really hard selling it cause I am not a seller but more of a hermit. More then anything right now I would like to someday get some honey and to never have to buy bees again and maby to not have to trap though it sure is neat when you get something in your trap.
I had 12 traps out last year and got nothing which is why I went ahead and bought some bees. Then I caught some. After I learn more my priorities might change.
Thanks
gww
Quote from: gww on June 16, 2016, 04:57:52 PM
| Though I might not know I am queenless till to late since at this time I can only see caped brood and have not yet developed a tallent for seeing eggs and larva. |
Most likely you can see open brood (looks like white curled worms) but even still worker brood has to come from a mated queen. So the only thing you have to learn is the difference between drone brood and worker brood. When it is capped it is easy.
Now back to combining queens ... in the battle even the survivor can get hurt and if it was a virgin that virgin has to make it back to the hive mated. That is not guaranteed. I wouldn't combine swarms. I would let each one make a go of it because how they start is not necessarily how they end up.
Ace
Thje guy that I bought the hive from showed me some larva and I saw it when I was with him. I even saw the queen in my small swarm before the combine because he saw it first and showed it to me. On my own I don't have a practiced eye and expecially when the bees are festooning and drawing wax. I am being so carefull trying to get the frames out and not break comb that everything else gets lost. On the young hives I even have a bit of a hard time seeing caped brood cause it is not in the bigg, round, cover the majority of the center of the frame but more like in the center of a quarter of the frame that was drawn first and seems to be a little darker then the honey caps.
Mostly for better or worse, since seeing a bit of capped brood in the bigg one and seeing the queen before the combine in the small one, I have not really looked at anything but rate of comb building, how strait it is and how much room they have.
I should have moved the outside frame in a bit but didn't like what the end of the comb at the end of the frame was doing and so didn't yet. On the ones that have the outside frames built out, I find it hard to get the first frame out with gloves on without tearing stuff up. I have the frames tight together but the honey bands on top are getting really wide anyway.
I expect to get more practice at some of this stuff.
QuoteI wouldn't combine swarms. I would let each one make a go of it because how they start is not necessarily how they end up.
I would have rather had four hives rather then three but keep thinking that there is a derth somewhere when they will quit drawing wax and that I need three mediums to winter with and I would rather have two hives survive and make a small split off them come spring than have 4 and only one live. I really don't know what to expect and would error on the side of caution rather then have to buy more bees.
I have the small swarm still in the trap but it is almost summer solstice and I don't know what can and can not be done and as you said you can't see them so I just have to do my best guess and hope it works.
I don't even know the simple things like if I only had one medium built out would they have a better chance in winter being moved to 2 stack 5 frame nuc or left in what they put together or thrown in with something bigger and then taken out in spring.
I just keep looking listening and expermenting and trying to not repeat mistake after I figure out it was a mistake.
Cheers
gww
BEGINNING>>>with foundationless is sooo much harder than beginning with foundation, that if you will PM me your address, I will send you 10 sheets of wired foundation. Once you try it in a box, I don't think you will ever start another box without it.
Quote from: iddee on June 16, 2016, 08:33:02 PM
BEGINNING>>>with foundationless is sooo much harder than beginning with foundation,
I have never done foundationless but judging from post on both forums I think your statement is correct. If you were going to be a bee haver and just throw the bees in a box and walk away I think they would do fine. But if you are going to start with an empty box and then try to train the bees to do what you want and you know nothing about bees your success rate might be a little on the disappointing side. I agree with iddee, to start out do what is easiest and hope that you don't screw up too bad in the first year that you can expand and do what you think you want in the next years.
Iddee
I love you for that man. The hive I bought had 20 frames with foundation and the guy that sold it to me rolled his eyes knowing I was trying foundationless. The only real problim is that I probly have 300 frames made altogether and I cut the top bar in a 45 degree angle to make the comb guide. Lots of hours involved in making them. This winter I may order some foundation when I get to making more frames if I don't get sidetracked with something that seems more important. I made a band saw mill so I could cut my own lumber and sometimes get sidetracked to building things. I have a 48 by 20 michine shed that I just got under roof and it still will need three sides some day maby.
I truly don't think I will sell much honey or bees and so I am trying to get what I get on a dime. If I ever got to where I could sell something, I would get all the best stuff but except for my wife putting pressure on the kids like with eggs some times, I would have to do it on an honor stand type situation where poeple just leave their money and take what they want. I don't want to be anti social but spent 30 years driving 3 hours a day so I could end up where I am and now I can't seem to make myself leave to mingle. I look through junk for hours to keep from having to go to the store to by stuff I could get in twenty minutes. If my wife didn't do the shopping I would probly buy everything on line and have it shipped to my house. I think I might almost have a disease.
Every time I screw up a comb and have to try to fix it I do think I am an idiot though. I also am always over confident in my abilities and usually proved not that smart. I am going to try and make it to winter and then if things are going fairly well I may spring for some foundation and build some more frames.
I am very proud to know you and that you would be helpful enough to give a compleete stranger like me something when trying to help.
I also hope you don't take badly my bull headedness to use what I have invested my time in (300 foundationless frames) as me not listening to good advice . I want your advice and just cause I don't follow it today doesn't mean I won't never follow it.
I do figure that starting this way may really make me apretiate the switch if I ever get there.
I do know that reading about things and thinking you know something helps a bit but doing it is always differrent when you really don't know what you are doing. When I watched the guy who has kept bees for a long time, when he looked at a frame he knew what he was seeing and tried to show me some. I still didn't see all he was seeing or understand well even though he was trying to show important things. I get by myself and my understanding of what is really going on is even worse. I am sure I will do this the hard long way like I do everything in my life.
Ace
I am a year behind cause I wanted to trap bees or get them local and it took me that long. I had my stuff setting out for a year before getting to use it.
I won't change my mind for some time in making it work and am only in so much of a hurry cause I want to some day get it right but it is my excuse (like chickens) to stay home and not have to go on vacation or something. I would if I made a little money give it to my wife as a bonus for being a worthless husband but don't want to start another career. I don't want to spend so much that I have to get another job to support it. I just want to piddle but would like to be just a tiny bit successful due to pride. I am willing to take it slow and if I have set backs I will just be even a bit slower. I have a love hate relation ship with all my projects. Love the ideals, hate the work but always finnish due to the pride factor.
I do appretiate you though Iddee and ace.
Thanks
gww
Ps Iddee, I would ask what foundation you are using. I keep hearing everybody that is using plastic has to wax them which I don't have the resources to do and that sounds like a lot of work too.
Quote from: gww on June 16, 2016, 10:45:26 PM
don't take badly my bull headedness to use what I have invested my time in (300 foundationless frames) as me not listening to good advice .
You don't need that many to start. You can add wax foundation to 10-20 foundationless frames. Get them drawn out and filled and then use the foundationless in between your drawn out frames.
I use crimp wired wax foundation. If you have 20 drawn out combs now, just add a foundationless frame tightly between two of them. They will draw it straight. Then add another. Soon you will have nice, straight combs in the hives. I would also run a couple wires crossways of the foundationless frames, as they will draw wax straight down across the wires and give the comb extra strength.
A piece of burr comb wax the size of a ping pong ball rubbed along the edge of your 45 degree edge will also help them start the comb straight.
Ace and iddee
I just looked in the hive again today. The hive that I bought that has the foundation in it that I pulled the one brood frame up to and empty box is drawing great comb on each side of the foundation frame. They had about 5 or 6 frames drawn out now to about 70 percent done. I took two of the outside frames and put then inside those 6 frames. Sorta like EHEBBBEHHE or something like that. I must say that those frames that are drawn seem to be my best ones. Lots of bees in this hive though.
The small swarm that I had combined together is actually doing worse than I had thought. It still has only about 60 to 70 percent of the frames drawn out. I did not see any larva and seen some capped brood some of which has been hatching I think. It has empty cells through out the brood and there seems to be a hole at the bottom of some of these open cells that goes all the way through. I don't know if this hive has a queen now or not. The way the bees were acting makes me think that they still have a queen cause they were pretty calm. This hive even with the extra bees does not forage at the rate the other two hives do. I used straw in the smoker today and it burnt through it lots faster then other things I have used so this hive was open longer then need be so I guess I decided I seen what I would see. Wether it was dumb or smart, I pulled the best looking frame up to the next box. They were probly not ready but I didn't want to take the second box off that I had used when doing the paper combine so thought I would put a better ladder to it then the little bit of comb I have rubberbanded from the swarm.
The last one had started on the frames to the side of the one I had pulled up on it. It had replaced the bur comb that was branching out from one wall of the box and I scraped it off again. What I have found so far with adding bees to empty boxes is that they seem to start on one end of the bar and draw the most perfect comb to about half way the lenght of the bar and then start to curl off to one side towards the other bar. The first two or three weeks I was thinking man I got this dicked, they are drawing perfect. I probly killed a couple of bees today. I took the putty knife and crunched the part of the comb that started widening toward the next bar on about three frames. They get further and further off the closer you get to the edge. It was full of honey that squished out. I know one big blob of honey took out a glob of bees and sent them to the bottom board. I did take the bur comb that I broke off and rubbed it along the edge of the frame closest to the wall that the comb was on.
I have the twenty frames with foundation but they are part of the brood box that is the hive that I bought. I do agree that the frames being built around the frame with foundation are straiter and a bit thinner and uniform compared to the totally foundationless hives.
I did watch a couple of vidios on wiring frames and also think that a few of the frames in the beginning that I actually knocked the whole comb off and had to try and rubberband in would probly not have happenned if I would have had a wired frame. I didn't do it today but last inspection when I had 2 combs drifting over to the other frame, I wrapped some cotton thread around it before I tried to minipulate it. I do think if I get a couple of foundation frames that I could move them around for guides. I have a hard time taking the frames that are already in the hive brood nest out cause it is the one hive that almost has three mediums on it and so my best hope for being ready for winter no matter how the swarms end up.
I find that every time I close the hive up I think of things that might have been tried when I had it opened. I was also wondering what I would do to the bee space if I flipped every other one of the drifting comb frames so that there would be a strait side facing an empty portion of the frame.
There is a differrance of how and how full the bees on foundation are building the foundationless frames. They seem to be being built full on all four sides.
I guess I am going to have to watch a couple more you tube vidios on wiring and wired foundation.
Thanks
gww
Ps Just like looking in the hive, I always think of things I could have said better or could have added but type so slow that it takes forever to say anything. I am a high school drop out that joined the army at 17 and so please forgive how bad I am at this typing and spelling thing.