With the honey supers on top of the hive does that mean to stop doing inspection? If you do inspect how deep into the hive would you go. I use all 8 frame medium equipment with 3 brood boxes. I have 2 honey supers on each hive now.
If you want to do a brood inspection just take the supers off and inspect the brood. When you're finished replace the supers.
I will agree with PhilK, inspect as far as you want to, to see how your bees are doing. I would put the frames back where they came from and the supers in the same position, if all was correct with the inspection.
Good luck to you and your bees
Joe D
When removing the supers lift each one up on it's side/front. Then look underneath for swarm or replacement cells. By doing this you prevent the scenario of crushing a q cell and then finding out they've swarmed.
If you are putting on supers forget inspections. You will only do damage. If you have one hive that you are putting supers on and one hive that isn't doing anything what do you think you should do? I want you to think. I don't want to tell you the answer.
Quote from: Acebird on July 06, 2016, 08:16:29 PM
If you are putting on supers forget inspections. You will only do damage. If you have one hive that you are putting supers on and one hive that isn't doing anything what do you think you should do? I want you to think. I don't want to tell you the answer.
Well............In thinking what everyone wrote you seem to be out number on your answer. I see no harm in inspections. I guess your thinking is let them swarm and pick up the pieces afterwards so to speak. Damage? What damage if your not going into the brood nest and only looking for swarm cells on the bottom of the frames? I agree with GSF. At least his way you may ward off a swarm and be able to split the hive if needed. Your way it's by by bees. Maybe you should think a little harder!
OK have it your way. If you are putting on supers and they are filling them then they are not going to swarm. But if you want to rip open their hive and upset their progress possible create swarm cells that will justify your piddling. Have at it. Commercial beekeepers do not have the time to waste ripping open every hive that is producing to create justification for doing so.
Ace I don't think you can compare what commercial beeks do to what a hobbyist with a couple of hives does. I do occasional brood inspections on my hives that have honey supers on - no damage, no worries so far. Are you saying once you have honey supers on you can't inspect the brood nest? I've never heard anybody say that before.
I've also never heard that they won't swarm if they're putting honey into the supers - that's not true is it? Just because they're putting honey into supers doesn't mean the queen has space to lay down below... and if she doesn't have space to lay they might swarm right?
Quote from: billdean on July 05, 2016, 09:11:31 PM
With the honey supers on top of the hive does that mean to stop doing inspection? If you do inspect how deep into the hive would you go. I use all 8 frame medium equipment with 3 brood boxes. I have 2 honey supers on each hive now.
My opinion is that I typically don't inspect the broodnest once the honey supers are on. Yes they could swarm or there could be other problems but if they were doing well before you started adding honey supers then they shouldn't be a problem now. I just make sure there is room in the supers for them to store the honey so they don't backfill the broodnest. Typically by the time you are adding supers, swarm season is almost over anyway.
Part of they reason I don't is that I have hives with three supers on and they get a little heavy to remove just to check the broodnest.
Since the number of my hives has increased into the 30's, and my time has diminished, my approach has also changed. I went from worrying about them swarming to saying, "Heck, it's easier getting them out of the trees than it is going through a hive."
Get 'em out of a tree, put them in a box, let them fill it out, then sell.
I honest to God only want about 10 hives. Maybe I'll go treatment free this year (lol)
Quote from: cao on July 07, 2016, 12:02:29 AM
but if they were doing well before you started adding honey supers then they shouldn't be a problem now.
Agreed, this is what I am saying. Of course you can inspect with supers on. But constant piddling will certainly set the colony back or cause them to take to the trees.
There is a lot to be gained by knowing what commercial beeks do and why they do it. I am the furthest thing from a commercial beek but I know they know what they are doing because if they didn't know they wouldn't be one. It is a make or break thing.
Almost anyone can be a hobbyist. Some work so hard at it and fail and others barely put effort into it and succeed. That is because of what Michael Bush preaches, "Everything works if you let it". That might not work so well for commercial beeks but it is something to hold onto as a hobbyist especially when you are new at it.
Generally once I put supers on I don't dig below them unless something triggers me to. If the hive seems to be growing and booming I don't. If the hive seems to be dwindling, I do.
billdean,
You are in Michigan with me. You have 2 honey supers on now? Wow! I just did an 8 week inspection but I only have 2 brood boxes, 8 frame mediums. It looks like I will add another brood box soon but I have no clue if they will use it for honey. I guess it's up to them!
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on July 07, 2016, 08:26:12 PM
billdean,
You are in Michigan with me. You have 2 honey supers on now? Wow! I just did an 8 week inspection but I only have 2 brood boxes, 8 frame mediums. It looks like I will add another brood box soon but I have no clue if they will use it for honey. I guess it's up to them!
Yes......just a few miles north of you. Supers have been on for a couple of weeks. I kind of manipulated my hives a little. Every time I added a brood box I took a frame of larvae/eggs from the box below and put it in the center of the new box but I felt I had the bees to cover them. This seemed to help them move up quicker and start drawing out the frames. I don't no if I did right but it seems to have worked. I believe I will get a super or two of honey this year.
Quote from: Acebird on July 06, 2016, 09:08:27 PM
OK have it your way. If you are putting on supers and they are filling them then they are not going to swarm. But if you want to rip open their hive and upset their progress possible create swarm cells that will justify your piddling. Have at it. Commercial beekeepers do not have the time to waste ripping open every hive that is producing to create justification for doing so.
Acebird........I guess I spoke to quickly. The more I read and the more people added to this thread I believe I was wrong. You made some good points. I will leave the hives alone now unless I see something really out of place. Thanks for your input!
I know there are beekeepers who promote going into a hive on a regular basis to learn about bees. It is my belief that if you do that what you will learn is how a colony will react to regular interventions and you will NOT learn what they will do if you don't do that. Almost always, constant manipulations will cause the need for more manipulations. Because of the internet and digital photography you can experience all sorts of problems and solutions to those problems without ever having them in your apiary. To me that is a better way to learn. I am not saying that hands on experience isn't better. I believe quite the opposite. But hands on experience means being with someone experienced that has many hives not digging into a hive when you don't know anything or very little. How much can you learn from yourself when you doing things wrong?
When I'm at work, I do my best work when the boss leaves me alone and trusts that I know what I'm doing, and that I will do the best I can. When a boss chooses to watch over me or meddle in my tasks, it invariably ends up with lower productivity and more mistakes. In fact, managerial meddling by an outside manager caused a $150K mistake about a year ago, which I am still having to work around, over, under, and through.
It is the manager's primary responsibility to see that you have what you need to get the job done, and then get out of your way and let you work! Their secondary responsibility is to be available to lend direction and resources in case of urgent need.
One important lesson I learned early in my first season 2 years ago is that it is the same thing with bees. We are their boss. We need only see that they have what they need to get the job done, then get out of the way and let them do it. If they need help, then help must be given, but meddling and micro-managing can only slow them down, or even destroy them.
I will never be able to give my best work for a micro-manager. I have been blessed to have been working for the same "hands-off" manager for nearly 20 years. I try to do the same for my bees. I give them 2 or so deep inspections early in season, then if everything is alright (which it usually is) I only tip up boxes to look for Q cells, and treat them for mites if needed. I do pay close attention to the outside activity, and we can tell a lot from what things look like outside. When the honey supers are on, I only monitor the status of the honey frames and the entrances to the hives. I "manage" them by letting them do what they have been doing successfully without my meddling for millions of years.
It is fine and dandy to say stay out or if you want to see it, see it with someone who knows what they are looking at. I would say staying out would be the second or third goal. Not letting the bees starve, keeping the comb strait, adding space at the proper time, these things might be more important then just staying out and letting bees be bees. You can not provide the bees with what they need if you don't know yourself. It doesn't matter if you kill a hive as long as you reconize how you did it so you don't do it again. It is fine for poeple that have had bees for a bit and know what they are looking at to say stay out.
When you have no bases of referance for what you are seeing you have to look. I have seen lots say "I caught a swarm and it drew out a box in a week. Now my swarms all took a month. I had to look for a couple of weeks to see that it was indeed going to take a month. I could have stayed out of the hive but then if they had built the box out in a week they would have already been prepared to swarm in a month.
You read that a swarm will build fast, then slow down, then speed up even faster. Untill you have seen a few bees and get some experiance. You have to look. You can not call someone to do your work for you everytime you have a question. I know, I am sure the only guy I know that has bees is rolling his eyes if he sees my number. Do You learn some wrong things? I am sure you might but you also learn to get a feel for how fast things happen. You can not bugg somebody all the time for your stuff. My goal is to only have to get in the hive a couple of times a year. I of course would still like to maximise the bees potential while doing so.
I believe I will be getting in the hive a bit untill I get some kind of feel for this stuff.
You guys need to remember what it was like just starting out and not think of it from where you are now. I think the advice is correct but can not be followed by some one who has no clue.
I am talking about myself as not having a clue, not referancing any one else.
Cheers
gww
gww, I think you missed the topic. The hive referenced by the OP has 3 brood boxes and 2 supers. This is not a swarm, a nuc, or a package. This is a full grown hive on its way to making considerable honey. Even with a swarm you can measure the rate by just popping the top and look at how fast they draw comb or fill it. You do not have to "inspect", pull frames and collect bees for sugar rolls. Managing from the outside. If you have a concern that a hive is not doing what you feel is normal. Ask the forum for advice. Come to the forum for a perceived problem and get a plan so you are not going in just to tinker. If you tinker with a hive it will react to your tinkering. Most likely it will not be normal behavior. Pulling the cover off, taking a peek and putting it back on takes the bees 5 minutes or less to get back to business. Digging into the hive, manipulating frames (don't forget you are new at it) could cost them a day, a week or a month if you roll the queen. Always have a purpose to dig into a hive.
Ace
I understand the topic and even agree to the advice. I just was trying to keep it in perspective. I pretty much just lift the top and see if I need space. I was even thinking I might be a bad bee keeper for not going further.
I did however have to set the hive back a bit yesterday. I hadn't seen any orientation flights from my smallest hive so needed to make sure I had brood. I did. While in the hives I had some comb getting real wide and into the other frames space. I took the two biggest and put them to the edge of the hive. Had to reverse one. I had to smash the comb against the walls of the hive (probly killing bees in the prossess) to get all the frames to fit.
When they build more comb I am guessing I will tear something up if I get in again cause I will not be able to spred the combs when I pull the edge one out. If it was a honey super and not the brood nest I would have waited till harvest.
When you are new you don't have a reference point. And the forum is the only thing left and it aint like being there though it is pretty good and much better then being on you own or bugging somebody to death.
I may have set my bees back fixing all that but I will learn what goes and what doesn't someday and Maby it will be me helping somebody.
I didn't type all the above to try and take a thread off topic. I did it to show some of us are dummies and that you need to keep that in mind when coaching us. and we need to keep in mind that on some things we need the coaching. I read the whole thread and did take the advice given in the last two answers before my post to be more generic then they where considering they were probly spicific to what was ask. But then again, I admit to being a dummy and that things go over my head but I do so with the hope that I get better.
I thank you all for letting me tag along.
Thanks
gww
Quote from: gww on July 11, 2016, 08:26:57 PM
I had to smash the comb against the walls of the hive (probly killing bees in the prossess) to get all the frames to fit.
gww
Ouch, don't do that. One of those bees could be the queen. It is better to take the comb out and slice it back dumping the honey back into the hive. You have a good attitude gww. You will learn in time.
Ace
QuoteOuch, don't do that. One of those bees could be the queen. It is better to take the comb out and slice it back dumping the honey back into the hive. You have a good attitude gww. You will learn in time.
Foundationless is going to take getting used to. I was thinking that the fat combs where pure suger water or honey and no brood. I was hoping to be lucky and the queen would not be on a honey frame. I had given all three hives about 9 lbs each of suger water before inspection and now have quit feeding again.
It has been over 90 degrees every day forever and so I want to get in early and just long enough to see if they have some stores, were still building comb, and if the one had brood. I had read some where that sometimes after making thick comb the bees would chew it back down to correct bee space. I thought I would croud them against the wall and see. I had also fliped a partial built comb which will crowd it against some already built comb. The bees do over half of the frames strait and good but as they get to the other side of the frames it starts bowing into the other empty part to the frame next to it. I smash it a bit with the putty knife but don't go to far because of how hot it always is lately.
I read the bees eat the wide comb back but also read that incorrect bee space makes it hard to cool the hive in hot weather. I read a lot and it is all quite confusing.
I have been thinking that the only way I will ever really get good strait comb will be if they ever make an excess that I can harvest and then I will smash it strait and cut down and slowly start replacing the worst stuff. There will be no excess this year though.
Over all foundationless is going ok and I will learn what to tolerate and what not to. I don't know what the hell I am doing and so taking stuff out of the hive and then putting it back is intimidating. There was a time I thought of moving a frame of brood to speed up the smaller hives but the bigg hive is just only on the edge of winter survive size and I don't have drawn comb to give back to be filled with brood and the bees are pretty much filling what they have as they build.
I couldn't tell you if they are doing good or bad and so I figure I will know more after winter. I am going to get the guts at some time to remove a fat comb and cut it down and see how it goes. Thanks for the advice. I will say this. I always just looked for capped brood to judge if things are ok. On this last look I did finally see some larva of differrent size. I was mostly looking for brood and looking to see if they where filling the laying area with sugar water. First time of seeing larva when it wasn't being pointed out to me by someone experianced. I am guessing that is progress.
It seems when I type a responce that I am really selfish in my replies and explaine in a me, me, me, fassion. I am probly that way a bit and this is why I always steal other poeples topics or take threads off topic. For this I am sorry but don't know of a differrent way to comunicate. I ask the origional poster for forgiveness.
Thanks for the advice.
gww
I agree with Acebird and Michael.There comes point where it is not advisable to continue disturbing the hive. If you have supers on and they are filling they hive is probably doing well. You should have checked before placing supers and where I live it is rather late to do much of anything about a failing hive. I don't use chemicals but if there is an issue it is probably due to the beginning of mite production which you can deal with after harvesting.By watching the front of your hives and the type and degree of activity you will develop a sense of the hives health. Simply stated some hives will fail and you will have very little recourse.