OK - I got a locally raised northern virgin queen from my local bee club (part of a club project to develop hardier bees adapted to our climate). I put her in a nuc with honey, pollen, nectar and mostly capped brood - a few open larvae visible, seemed likely there would not be many eggs. I left the queen in her cage for 3 days. No one was paying any attention to her after day 3, so I let her out. She met one bee, they communicated briefly, then she wandered off with no other bees taking any notice. 5 days after that (8th day after creating nuc), I take a look. Lots more bees due to the emerging brood, no sign of eggs, can't see the queen, and then I see them - emergency cells! Four are already capped and one is still being fed. (photos below)
Questions:
- the bees must have started these queens almost immediately after I put them in the nuc. Are they just insurance in case the virgin I gave them were not to make it?
- What are the odds that the introduced queen is done for?
- What are the odds that this will become a viable nuc with a good queen?
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm144/tjcurtin1/Bees/IMG_7196%20v1.jpg) (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tjcurtin1/media/Bees/IMG_7196%20v1.jpg.html)
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm144/tjcurtin1/Bees/IMG_7191%20v1.jpg) (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tjcurtin1/media/Bees/IMG_7191%20v1.jpg.html)
If your local bee club gave you a virgin queen, she will need to be breed to bee your hives queen. I believe, there is a certain number of days in which to get her breed, if not she will only produce drones. Back a few years ago a friend that is a queen breeder, had several queens that didn't get breed because of the weather, it rained for a couple of weeks. I was in need of a queen, he gave me a older queen he had replaced, but had been doing ok. But looking at the photos someone is laying already.
Good luck to you and your bees
Joe D
As I read the situation ...
It sounds as if the virgin may have been 'hot off the press' - in which case she wouldn't have yet started to produce pheromones (which is why newly emerged virgins are so readily accepted - 'cause they don't smell like queens). Then, because as far as they were concerned there wasn't a queen present, the girls started to draw emergency queen-cells with what was available to them. And, once they've started a job, they'll usually finish it.
Now although by now your virgin is no doubt producing pheromones, the queen cells will be allowed to remain and a new virgin emerge. ('cause the bees figure that something strange has been going on - so best to play safe) And then you'll have a virgin fight on your hands.
If this was my problem, then I'd pull the frame with the queen cells and - very gently - brush the bees off, and make up another nuc with that frame as insurance - just in case your virgin is duff. But my guess is that as by now she'll be producing pheromones, the same situation shouldn't develop. If it does, then sadly she is duff.
LJ
Thanks, LJ. Is it likely that, if the introduced virgin is still in the hive, that she will do in the others before they can hatch - or will the workers protect them, such that they have to fight it out afterwards?
You guys come up with the best thread titles. lol
How interesting. My queen that I just introduced was a mated queen amd they loved her and were on her as soon as I opened the lid. I was reading it can take up to five days for the virgin to collect enough sperm before she starts laying. She'll be bigger and stronger than the others so she should be able to kill them off first, no?
A virgin has to go out on her mating flight, which can take as long as two weeks after hatching, before she can start to lay. I suppose that she might have been out on her flight - or doing a pre-mating flight orientation, while I was looking in the hive yesterday. Or I could just have missed seeing her in there. Or she could be gonzo (or 'duff' as LJ says!).
Quote from: tjc1 on July 06, 2016, 10:59:14 AM
Thanks, LJ. Is it likely that, if the introduced virgin is still in the hive, that she will do in the others before they can hatch - or will the workers protect them, such that they have to fight it out afterwards?
Personally, I wouldn't risk it. As I understand your situation, you really want to get this girl's genetics into your apiary. If you let them fight it out, you'll never get to know which one is the winner (unless they're marked or of different colours). That's why I suggest separating this virgin from the q/cells, to give her the best shot at the title. If she proves to be duff (*), then you've still got the 'insurance nuc' to fall back on.
LJ
(*) Duff - yes - a multi-use word. Can mean: a steamed pudding; something of low quality; to beat somebody up; a very poor shot or a mis-fire; a person's backside ... or a state of being pregnant. A great word !
:smile:
Wow. Two weeks? I didn't know that.
Quote from: little john on July 06, 2016, 12:03:46 PM
Quote from: tjc1 on July 06, 2016, 10:59:14 AM
(*) Duff - yes - a multi-use word. Can mean: a steamed pudding; something of low quality; to beat somebody up; a very poor shot or a mis-fire; a person's backside ... or a state of being pregnant. A great word !
:smile:
Agreed. Good word. Glad you defined it because I kept thinking you must mean dud. lol
Wow! That's quite a range of meaning! I think that you'd have to quite careful how and when you use it!
I see what you are saying - seems it would be easier to find the local queen I added and remove her, otherwise, I have to pull the two frames of brood that I put in in the first place and which carry the queen cells, put them in another nuc with some stores, and then add another two frames of brood to the first nuc in order for the added queen to carry on.
Quote from: tjc1 on July 06, 2016, 03:33:30 PM
Wow! That's quite a range of meaning! I think that you'd have to quite careful how and when you use it!
I see what you are saying - seems it would be easier to find the local queen I added and remove her, otherwise, I have to pull the two frames of brood that I put in in the first place and which carry the queen cells, put them in another nuc with some stores, and then add another two frames of brood to the first nuc in order for the added queen to carry on.
The more I think about it, with the exception of 'Plum Duff', the word 'Duff' seems to mean 'not as intended', or 'not good' generally. Being "up the duff" usually refers to an unwanted pregnancy. Anyway, I deviate ...
It may mean a little more work, but I'd seriously recommend you move the frames with the q/cells, and leave the virgin in the colony within which she's already been accepted. In the normal course of events she'll now be producing pheromones, and may possibly be seen as undesirable by another colony - unless you introduce her with appropriate precautions over a few days. BUT - the clock is ticking - and it's important that this lady takes to the air fairly soon.
Also - if you put frames of BIAS in place of those frames with Q/Cs, you'll very quickly determine whether this virgin is viable or not. Should another batch of Q/Cs develop, that'll save you wasting any more time on this particular lady. If she is a dud (thanks, MT-BG) it's best you find that out asap.
LJ
Quote from: little john on July 06, 2016, 04:12:12 AM
As I read the situation ...
It sounds as if the virgin may have been 'hot off the press' - in which case she wouldn't have yet started to produce pheromones (which is why newly emerged virgins are so readily accepted - 'cause they don't smell like queens).
I have heard a lot of people referring to queen cells as having pheromone - ie when there is a queen cell bees won't perceive themselves queenless, laying workers aren't likely to start being a problem if there is a QC. How can this be true if virgins don't have pheromone?
Oh oh, another new term I'm not familiar with: "frames of BIAS" ?
Hmmm... I'm not sure how some of us 'old duffers' might feel about the pejorative implications of 'duff' as they are developing here. :wink:
Quote from: PhilK on July 06, 2016, 08:01:27 PM
Quote from: little john on July 06, 2016, 04:12:12 AM
As I read the situation ...
It sounds as if the virgin may have been 'hot off the press' - in which case she wouldn't have yet started to produce pheromones (which is why newly emerged virgins are so readily accepted - 'cause they don't smell like queens).
I have heard a lot of people referring to queen cells as having pheromone - ie when there is a queen cell bees won't perceive themselves queenless, laying workers aren't likely to start being a problem if there is a QC. How can this be true if virgins don't have pheromone?
It's not that virgins don't
have pheromones ... it's that they don't produce pheromones
during the first few days after their emergence. So - a newly emerged virgin won't usually be detected as a queen, and stands a much higher chance of acceptance than an older virgin. But that state of being 'pheromone-less' only lasts for a few days.
When a colony detects that there is an absence of 'Queen Pheromone', they are provoked into taking emergency action, as being without a queen is just about as bad as it gets. What I have suggested (best guess on the evidence presented) is that this colony suddently found itself queenless ('cause the virgin wasn't detected as a queen), and immediately swung into action by beginning to draw queen cells. As soon as those queen cells began to form, the colony would have relaxed, as the crisis had provisionally been dealt with, and all they had to do then was wait for nature to take it's course.
Now we're talking here about events which have taken place very quickly - within a few days - this has to happen quickly, as there is only a very short time window for viable queen-cell production. If the queenless situation is not dealt with successfully in time, then after a couple of weeks or so the ovary development of one or more laying workers will no longer be suppressed, and they will gradually turn into Laying Workers. Their ovaries then produce pheromones, and from then on the colony is deceived into thinking that all is well. It's a cruel trick of Nature.
Ok - going back to the first 24hrs or so of this virgin's introduction ... The colony thinks it's queenless, and so swings into action by starting several queen-cells. A few days later, the introduced virgin's ovaries harden-up (or whatever happens to them, to provoke them into pheromone production), and so you'd think that the colony would then tear-down those queen-cells as they are no longer required ? But it doesn't quite work like that.
Something 'fishy' has happened, something out of the ordinary has taken place pheromone-wise - and anyway, bees tend to finish jobs they start, even if they're no longer required - and so the queen-cells stay, and are worked on. Whether it's as an insurance measure as a result of the unusual fluctuations in pheromone levels, or whether it's because bees are creatures of habit - who knows for certain ?
And so the virgin and the queen-cells get to co-exist. What would happen if there was no beekeeper intervention is anyone's guess. The first virgin to emerge would certainly destroy the remaining q/cells, that's almost guaranteed. And so two virgins would be left - of slightly different ages. What happens next is anyone's guess, as it doesn't normally happen. A fight most probably ...
LJ
QuoteOh oh, another new term I'm not familiar with: "frames of BIAS" ?
tcj1 - sorry - many of us slip into using abbreviations, and forget that not everyone knows them.
BIAS = Brood In All Stages - in this case it's the eggs and very young larvae which are wanted.
LJ - thanks for the definition - and for taking the time to share your knowledge in such detail.
Here's my plan - I figure that I have until July 12th (to be safe) before the first Q cells hatch. I will check the hive on the weekend to look for either the introduced queen or eggs/brood indicating that she is there and laying. If either is the case, I will move the Q cells to another nuc with some frames of brood; if not the case, I will leave things as they are, assuming that the introduced Queen is gone.
Aarrgghh! Gave the nuc a finger width, 6" long strip of pollen patty to make them feel that they had enough resources. Found nuc being robbed today! The linden trees are in full bloom here, so I never considered the possibility of robbing, but I'm guessing that's what started it. I closed the hive, but will the intruders caught inside do damage or harm the queen cells? Or will they integrate into the nuc population? Sometimes I feel that if it's possible to do the wrong thing with the bees, I will definitely do it!