One of the longtime members and elders at our bee club is selling a hive and I negotiated the purchase. It's one he hasn't taken care of due to his failing health and the location is away at a remote sight. They have lasted 6 years at their current location, so it is definitely a good survivor colony.
I went there today and removed the honey super so it is just 2 deeps. The problem is these bees are CRANKY! It's the most irritated and defensive hive I've ever worked with. They were hitting our heads and bumping my hands the entire time I was there. They followed back to the truck that was on the opposite side of the property even.
I wanted to move them to my son's house but there is no way I could leave these girls there without requeening. Unfortunately I'm not able to requeen before I move them, so I'm working on finding a remote place to take them and I think I found it. The seller of the hive wants them moved asap, and doesn't want me requeening there, as it is a neighborhood where things would be a mess if they went sideways.
Ok so now I'm wondering... if I take them to a remote place but still have good resources for them, maybe I should just leave the current queen and let them bee?
I understand they may not make as much honey if I change to another queen... I guess I'm just trying to figure out what my options are and what the best plan would be.
So far I either bring them home and immediately requeen, or I take them to a remote ranch and either leave them alone or requeen and possibly move them back here?
Thanks
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Sounds as if whatever decision you finally reach involves finding a remote site - so if it were me, I'd firm-up the acquisition of that site, and move the hive there. THEN you can decide what strategy to adopt.
I don't understand why you think re-queening may result in lower honey yields - is this one particularly spectacular in this regard ?
There is a widely-held view that prolific colonies will be aggressive and/or over-defensive - as if these two features will always co-exist. This view has evolved from the observation that aggressive colonies are invariably prolific.
Now prolific colonies have derived that characteristic from being mongrelised - and indeed, mongrelised colonies can certainly be aggressive/over-defensive - but the one does not automatically lead to the other. Which can be shown by the large numbers of prolific mongrelised colonies around which are NOT aggressive/over-defensive.
Mongrelisation > Aggressive/Defensive (AND Prolific)
Mongrelisation > Prolific
The mistake which is frequently made is one of confusing cause and effect.
LJ
Brian, where you at? It helps to put your general location in your profile since most questions are location specific. I have a colony that won't bother you until you open the hive. Then it a couple days later and they are still after anything they see moving, like my neighbor a couple hundred yards away. I may have pulled 5 frames of honey off of them, she's on her way out. Another hive that was about as aggressive calmed down and made the heck out of honey. Then there's the gentle bees I have that made a lot of honey.
LJ, don't you think a colony with lots of honey is naturally more aggressive. This is my experience. In the spring when the colony is the smallest and has the least amount of honey to protect they are cream puffs. Right about now when the supers are full and the nectar starts to dwindle they will get more defensive. The OP took the honey off. I think that would rile them up a bit especially in a area that doesn't have a strong flow. I feel he shouldn't have done that until he was ready to move them.
Quote from: Acebird on July 20, 2016, 08:28:54 AM
LJ, don't you think a colony with lots of honey is naturally more aggressive. This is my experience. In the spring when the colony is the smallest and has the least amount of honey to protect they are cream puffs.
I think what you may be describing there is a relationship between colony size and aggression, rather than the amount of honey and aggression. I believe it's generally accepted that small colonies are less aggressive than large ones - certainly that's been my experience with Nucs. At 5-frame size they're a joy to work with, but then they grow ... and can sometimes turn nasty.
Which is causing me no end of problems with Nuc sales - for the last thing I want to do is sell apparently well-behaved colonies which will then turn 'hot' at a later date. But short of raising each colony to full-size before down-sizing it into a saleable nuc (which isn't very practical) - I don't have any clear idea right now of how to deal with this.
LJ
You stated a five year survivor colony was your interest. By requeening are you not loosing the very reason you bought it... or at least part of the reason? After all. leaving the area the DCA will be different also.
And it may have been mentioned already, but time of year can add to the defensiveness..
Quote from: little john on July 20, 2016, 06:31:48 AM
Sounds as if whatever decision you finally reach involves finding a remote site - so if it were me, I'd firm-up the acquisition of that site, and move the hive there. THEN you can decide what strategy to adopt.
I don't understand why you think re-queening may result in lower honey yields - is this one particularly spectacular in this regard ?
There is a widely-held view that prolific colonies will be aggressive and/or over-defensive - as if these two features will always co-exist. This view has evolved from the observation that aggressive colonies are invariably prolific.
Now prolific colonies have derived that characteristic from being mongrelised - and indeed, mongrelised colonies can certainly be aggressive/over-defensive - but the one does not automatically lead to the other. Which can be shown by the large numbers of prolific mongrelised colonies around which are NOT aggressive/over-defensive.
Mongrelisation > Aggressive/Defensive (AND Prolific)
Mongrelisation > Prolific
The mistake which is frequently made is one of confusing cause and effect.
LJ
I think I have the remote site taken care of now, so I'm going to move them there for now.
I wasnt trying to connect defensiveness with production, just acknowledging they may not produce as much if requeened. According to the owner they have been superior producers compared to his other hives at this location. He is selling this one only because it is his final set of deep boxes.
Quote from: sc-bee on July 20, 2016, 09:27:54 AM
You stated a five year survivor colony was your interest. By requeening are you not loosing the very reason you bought it... or at least part of the reason? After all. leaving the area the DCA will be different also.
And it may have been mentioned already, but time of year can add to the defensiveness..
This is the dilemma I am facing. I'm just trying to consider all the variables and figure out the best move.
I am thinking if I can get them moved to the new spot that is remote then I have no reason to hurry on the requeening. I will probably wait and see how they perform there.
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Quote from: GSF on July 20, 2016, 08:22:46 AM
Brian, where you at? It helps to put your general location in your profile since most questions are location specific. I have a colony that won't bother you until you open the hive. Then it a couple days later and they are still after anything they see moving, like my neighbor a couple hundred yards away. I may have pulled 5 frames of honey off of them, she's on her way out. Another hive that was about as aggressive calmed down and made the heck out of honey. Then there's the gentle bees I have that made a lot of honey.
I'm in northern California. I will try to add that on my profile, thanks :)
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If you requeen this hive you will completely lose all the genetics that makes this hive prolific and a survivor. To requeen you are only buying a group of bees and not a superior hive.
To remove the queen and add a queen cell you are adding only half the genetics of the progeny and maybe the new bees may be quieter, but if you shift the hive before doing this, depending how far you shift, you are dealing with a new set of drones in the new DCA.
My sister lives in Davis, is that northern? She says it is. She did not like honey until she had mine. Now she can't get enough of it.
You the beekeeper has to decide if these are the bees you want. If you requeen you essentially have a package of unknown traits. That may be the right choice but you must understand what you are doing. Do you want them or are you looking for a free package?
I feel you pain. I have 3 docile hives and one "Agro" hive. I have been told several times to re-queen but as per comments it was a good producer - so I thought - looking back at the figures there is little difference between all 4. Anyway toward the end of last year and early this year they improved and last two intrusions into the hive there were no stings - even after dropping a box and it rolling down the hill!! Yesterday 27 stings !!!! DEFINATELY Re-queening in now.
I've had both aggressive and docile bees produce large quantities of honey. Right now I have nothing but great producing docile hives. I snuff out the first hint of aggression.
Moving that hive to a new location is just as likely to affect honey production, one way or the other. Perhaps make up a couple splits with some good queens, and leave the old one in another? That will give you more options if & when the time comes. Wooten's Goldens are in N. Cali. I found them to be even tempered & good producers.
One issue not brought up, is something bothering these hives? Perhaps nocturnal's such as a skunk or something? This can keep hives in a foul mood if left in that situation.
Re-queening by squishing the queen and allowing one or more Queen-Cells to develop from her eggs will ensure that the present Queen's DNA continues.
Removal of the colony to a new location will indeed involve drones from a new DCA - but this will happen anyway following the colony's relocation, when it comes time for the next Virgin Queen of that colony to be mated. You can't preserve the status quo for ever.
By re-queening now - using the existing Queen's DNA - you would simply be doing what will be happening anyway (whether you like it or not) in a couple of year's time.
LJ
I am not a very experienced beekeeper as this is my first year but I would just keep the hive as is and invest in a really good bee suit. In my ultrabreeze I have not been stung yet and from what I have read neither has practically anyone. Just suite up and enjoy a strong healthy hive without treating them.
Quote from: bwallace23350 on July 21, 2016, 10:30:01 AM
I am not a very experienced beekeeper as this is my first year but I would just keep the hive as is and invest in a really good bee suit. In my ultrabreeze I have not been stung yet and from what I have read neither has practically anyone. Just suite up and enjoy a strong healthy hive without treating them.
QuoteIt's the most irritated and defensive hive I've ever worked with. They were hitting our heads and bumping my hands the entire time I was there. They followed back to the truck that was on the opposite side of the property even.
'Following' is generally considered to be a most undesirable characteristic in honey bee colonies - and not one sign of a strong healthy colony.
"I mark fairly heavily against this activity on the record sheet and will re-queen such colonies at the earliest opportunity." http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/following.html As do I.
You may find http://www.bbka.org.uk/members/forum.php?t=5271 an interesting read.
LJ
Quote from: Acebird on July 20, 2016, 07:52:56 PM
My sister lives in Davis, is that northern? She says it is. She did not like honey until she had mine. Now she can't get enough of it.
You the beekeeper has to decide if these are the bees you want. If you requeen you essentially have a package of unknown traits. That may be the right choice but you must understand what you are doing. Do you want them or are you looking for a free package?
I'm just looking to expand a little. I have 4 hives at home and I'm hoping to get up to around 10 by next year, which means I have to start looking at other locations as I am maxed out here.
I think I will move them as is, and see how they work out at the new spot. I can always split and requeen at a later date if I am not happy with the results.
Quote from: buzzbee on July 21, 2016, 09:03:43 AM
One issue not brought up, is something bothering these hives? Perhaps nocturnal's such as a skunk or something? This can keep hives in a foul mood if left in that situation.
That's entirely possible. They are in a yard at a commercial business, so there is not someone there to monitor the property at night, so we would only know of something bothersome if they actually did some damage.
Well I moved the hive last night. I showed up at 8pm and as we pulled into the yard there was a skunk standing there by the fence. We parked and he walked within 10 feet of us and went back and forth along the fence line before going into hole in the fence.
So it sounds like buzz bee could have it right... I am hoping maybe they will calm down a bit now that they are in the new spot and away from that skunk. Of course there may be other pests at the new spot, I will just have to wait and see.
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Brian,
Since you have skunks in your area, just raise the hive up a little to make the skunk raise his belly off the ground while he is bothering the hive. It is his weak spot and the bees know how to teach him a lesson.
Jim
Good suggestion Jim because Brian did not tell us how far away he moved the hive. Maybe Michael Bush will chime in. He uses top entrances that exposes that tender belly.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on July 25, 2016, 01:15:21 PM
Brian,
Since you have skunks in your area, just raise the hive up a little to make the skunk raise his belly off the ground while he is bothering the hive. It is his weak spot and the bees know how to teach him a lesson.
Jim
Yeah it already was on a stand, so maybe that was not the problem. Who knows.
I made a new stand yesterday and it is around 12" off the ground at the new spot. The new spot is 15+ miles away.
So I went out there today to check on them. I decided to go ahead and split the 2 boxes and brought a new top & bottom. As soon as I opened the lid things went crazy! I thought I had opened a hornets nest. I can't even begin to describe how things went, but it was like nothing I want to experience again. Luckily I had my pant legs taped up and I put a pair of work gloves over my light lambskin gloves.
When I finished I still had bees chasing me 300 yards away. I looked at my gloves and there are stingers on at least every inch of the leather.
I called my contact person who has queens and I will be picking up 2 of them tomorrow.
The current situation is the 2 deep boxes are now single deeps next to each other. The old queen is on the left, no queen on the right.
Since I have always raised my own queens, I'm not sure if I should have pinched the queen today or? I don't think I could have dealt with any more than what I did splitting them, that was a chore.
My plan is to get the Queens at 10am and be at the yard at 11, find the queen, pinch her, and hang a queen in each box.
Is there another way to do this or does it sound like I am on the right track?
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One thing you might want to do is to take a small vial of alcohol to put the queen in. This can be used later for a bee lure.
Quote from: Flyin Brian on July 25, 2016, 12:33:34 PM
I showed up at 8pm and as we pulled into the yard there was a skunk standing there by the fence...
Some of the most aggressive bees I've ever had to deal with ( before AHB crosses) were being preyed on by skunks. Corner hives in out-yards seemed to be the typical culprits. Skunks leave a "telltale" path of mashed down grass/plants when frequenting hives, as well as scratch marks around the entrance.
There are a number of ways to counter skunk assaults. Raising the entrance - either the bottom, or a new top (only) helps. A low hot wire is also effective, but invites shorting out the wire when low foliage comes in contact - it has to be trimmed more regularly. Some use carpet "tack-strips" around the bottom entrance.
Regardless - this is quite likely the reason the hive is/was aggressive. They should calm right down within weeks at a new location that isn't plagued by skunks.
Good luck!
Bees will go crazy after you first move them. It's probably like an earthquake that lasts for hours.
Today was the big day!!! I went and picked up 2 queens and got out to the yard around 11am. It was 103F here today, so I am glad it was before noon and only around 94 at the time.
I opened up the box on the right and heard the familiar "buzzzz" of a queenless hive, so I installed one caged queen there in between frames.
Then I turned on the video camera (on a tripod) and here is the video:
https://youtu.be/M92iakJ8MU4
The 3 minute mark is when a lot of bees are flying, and again around 4:40 they are pretty upset.
The box had not been apart for 6 years.
I brought an empty nuc with me. I pulled frames from the hive one at a time and put them in the nuc, when I had it full I went back to the main box and now I had it full of bees and 5 frames in a 10 box. This way I could pull them out one at a time and look and set them to one side, and so on. I finally found her on the far right edge, running on solid honey!!! WTH, she is not supposed to be on honey right? lol
I pulled my queen catcher hair clip thingy and caught her with 10 workers and got her into another box quickly. I then took the 2nd queen and put tape over the entrance to the candy plug so they could not release her early, then I put her in the frames. They really didn't seem to care at that point, but it will be interesting to see how they are treating her this week when I go back in.
Unfortunately my phone died before I found her, so I did not get pics of that. I did save her in a small bottle of alcohol though.
Thanks for all the suggestions and help. I will update as time progresses.
When I pulled honey last I found capped brood and larva in the super above a capped super of honey. Nope, she didn't read the book.
Brian, it looked to me that the hive was a very healthy hive packed full of bees. I don't know how angry they were because I wasn't there but they did not seem to crawl all over you and your veil was not covered with bees which is something I would expect with a very aggressive hive. You did not attempt to cover either box and you worked directly over the box. I think that method is going to put a lot of bees in the air.
I am wondering what others think on how aggressive they would rate this hive.
Yep like Jim said... Skunks are or can be a problem here so all 4 of my hives are on 14 inch stands like this,
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13754238_1654173288236794_6237796168116529210_n.jpg?oh=9020ed6b64849294829ad8b42e855636&oe=58364DFB)
Brian,
Smoke your bees (in the entrance) about 30-45 seconds or more before you open the hive. This blocks out their communication and gives them time to fill their bellies with honey.
When you lift the lid, add some smoke and let them move down on the comb and then open it. Open the lid away from you. The bees will dart out at high speed and sting what ever they can. If the lid is in the way, they have a chance to calm down after the initial dart out of the hive.
When you laid the pair of frames on top of the hive, you killed and injured lots of bees. Every bee near an injured be gets a dose of danger pheromones and goes into attack mode. Instead, lean the frame on the side of the hive, giving the bees time to get out from under the wood. Then use your hive tool to separate the 2 frames.
Since you are wearing heavy gloves, slowly slide your bees on the frame to allow the bees to move out of the way. You are crushing a lot of bees when you just grab a frame, again, lots of attack pheromones stirring them up and it will take several weeks for them to calm down.
As mentioned, I did not see bees attacking you. They were very agitated but I would have expected you to be covered with bees.
Hope this helps.
Jim
Yes Jim, I will second everything you said.
The entrance was smoked twice before I opened the lid.
I guess I am just imagining that this is a hot hive, as I said on the beginning of the video, it was not nearly as active as it was the day before when I split them.
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From what I saw they seem to bee of average temperment. Kind like the bees from the seventies and eighties before they started heavely breeding more docile bees. I personnel prefer those traits in my bees. They seem to me to defendthe hive from shb and wasps and hhornet's more. I have found them to be less prone to vero. This is my observation and may not be others.
John.
You need to use more smoke when first opening up the hive and while working it. Once the bees get riled up it's too late to calm them back down, get that smoker pumping smoke across the top of the frames before you start pulling a frame out. Good luck with the requeening, it should work.
Quote from: Beeboy01 on July 29, 2016, 04:55:52 PM
You need to use more smoke when first opening up the hive and while working it. Once the bees get riled up it's too late to calm them back down, get that smoker pumping smoke across the top of the frames before you start pulling a frame out. Good luck with the requeening, it should work.
Plus make a sheet ( dark and thick ) with the size of a fame cut in center. Place it over hive and pull frame thru the slot. Then place it back and move sheet to next frame. Doing this one exposes one frame at a time. And the rest of the hive is covered. The bees will be calmer doing this.
John
you can cut wooden carpet installation strips to fit the landing board. when the skunks tap they get stuck & back off.
I live trap & drown them. another thing that has not been mentioned yet is that hives can get cranky if there is no queen. you might want to check the hive for brood. when bees follow me I smoke myself heavily & walked thru the low hanging branches of trees.
I have never seen my bees act like that. I would call that hot. Only once have they been riled up and they were still not that angry
How many stings did you take on this?
I've had bees where I couldn't see out of the veil... just because they are in the air does not mean they are angry. Maybe they are hot. Maybe they just need more room.