One of my hives had a count of 6 today so looks like I'll be treating and. I wanted to see what the people's thoughts were on my two options...
Option 1. Mite away quick strips
Option 2. Removing the supers and treating with oxalic acid which I believe would take at least 3 treatments due to the warm temps?
I am in the process of spraying them with Mineral oil thru a insect sprayer which heats the oil to make a heavy smoke which suffocates the mites.Treatment must be done every 7 days for 3 weeks in a row!Fat Bee man treats using this method!
Quote from: Blacksheep on August 28, 2016, 04:25:15 PM
I am in the process of spraying them with Mineral oil thru a insect sprayer which heats the oil to make a heavy smoke which suffocates the mites.Treatment must be done every 7 days for 3 weeks in a row!Fat Bee man treats using this method!
Seriously? You need to do some research on that. Search bee source.com for some information. There's a long post about a study one member did. You also need to research the fatbeeman. He no longer does that. Additionally, he sells OAV equipment now.
Quote from: Barhopper on August 28, 2016, 04:48:35 PM
Quote from: Blacksheep on August 28, 2016, 04:25:15 PM
I am in the process of spraying them with Mineral oil thru a insect sprayer which heats the oil to make a heavy smoke which suffocates the mites.Treatment must be done every 7 days for 3 weeks in a row!Fat Bee man treats using this method!
Seriously? You need to do some research on that. Search bee source.com for some information. There's a long post about a study one member did. You also need to research the fatbeeman. He no longer does that. Additionally, he sells OAV equipment now.
Blacksheep, please do as Barhopper suggested. I do not think you will find that sprayed mineral is as good as once thought. Food grade mineral oil in a propane fogger ? the mineral oil coats the bees and mites causing the bees to groom each other and the mites to fall off much that same as
Powdered sugar ? the powdered sugar works in effect like the mineral oil.
You might want to read this from the forum here in 2005 -
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=2059.0
Quote from: RustyUPNY on August 28, 2016, 03:12:33 PM
One of my hives had a count of 6 today so looks like I'll be treating and. I wanted to see what the people's thoughts were on my two options...
Option 1. Mite away quick strips
Option 2. Removing the supers and treating with oxalic acid which I believe would take at least 3 treatments due to the warm temps?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160828/2c82f22ca7a4284512c154c46574d661.jpg)
Goodness, I wish I could talk about one of my hives having six. :/
Blacksheep, I'll try to post a link to what barhopper is referring to. It's a pretty good read. Basically this beek kept a record on his treatments over a period of time. Initially it worked great. Later on it seemed like the mites had figured how to do an end run around it. Right at the last the mites were exploding and exploding very quickly on him. He did the OAV thing and the mite population got back under control pretty quickly.
So... Would anyone like to answer my question... Pull the supers and treat with OA x3 weeks or stick with MAQS?
It looks like OAV is the best option right now. There are discussions about the need to rotate treatments, but that debate rolls on. I don't know when our temps would fit the MAQS requirements except in the winter, but I suspect you are ok in UPNY. :shocked:
Well, those are 2 possibilities, but do you mean to trickle the OA or vaporize it? As noted it has been recommended to rotate treatments to avoid developing resisitance., I have used both, and both have worked for me, though the maqs seems to hit the bees harder for the first day or two. The OA vapor (which is what form I used) doesn't seem to faze them at all.Temps in the NE should certainly be fine for the maqs
If I use the OA I will be vaporizing it. I was trying to not pull the supers off only because there is a massive golden rod bloom coming in right now. However if it meant saving my bees I would...
I have two hives in my back yard and I have read some places that it's best to treat both even if only one has the mite issue. I am not sure I subscribe to that idea in terms of giving one a medication that is not needed but the argument is that there is probably enough drift between bees from hive to hive that it's probably worth doing. Any thoughts on that one?
Any treatment of varroa is going to kill off the weak and propagate the strong over time. I don't see this as a long term solution. It would make more sense to treat the bees with something that would make them stronger but even that has a dependency attached to it. If the managed bee becomes stronger it might put the feral bees at risk. Without a feral population important genes could be lost. There is no easy solution.
I have decided to let nature decide what lives and what dies because in the wild that is what happens and it has worked for millions of years.
Disclaimer: I can do this because my standard of living is not dependent on bees.
Quote from: RustyUPNY on August 31, 2016, 08:29:56 AM
I was trying to not pull the supers off only because there is a massive golden rod bloom coming in right now.
I believe that if your hive is strong enough to pull in this flow now then you already have your winter bees. The treatment will not make more bees in time to catch the flow. If the hive doesn't have it's winter bees then your not going to get that flow.
Quotethe argument is that there is probably enough drift between bees from hive to hive that it's probably worth doing. Any thoughts on that one?
If you treat one hive in an apiary you automatically have treated them all. Maybe not effectively but they all got a treatment. Treating is not my thing but treating hives that do not show a problem is way worse than treating the hive that does IMO.
We just treated with MAQS and now wish we had not. Lost all our queens and had to combine three hives into one because over half the bees in each were lost. We were on the higher end of the recommended temps but still within range. Even provided some additional ventilation for the first day. Don't think we will use them again.
Quote from: Barhopper on August 28, 2016, 04:48:35 PM
Seriously? You need to do some research on that. Search bee source.com for some information. There's a long post about a study one member did. You also need to research the fatbeeman. He no longer does that. Additionally, he sells OAV equipment now.
Yep whatever the thing is at the time..it ain't mineral oil fumigators no more..
Quote from: RustyUPNY on August 28, 2016, 03:12:33 PM
One of my hives had a count of 6 today
Goodness, I wish I could talk about one of my hives having six. :/
[/quote]
Thinking he means 6 per 100 so 18 per 300
Quote from: tjc1 on August 30, 2016, 11:04:14 PM
Well, those are 2 possibilities, but do you mean to trickle the OA or vaporize it? As noted it has been recommended to rotate treatments to avoid developing resisitance.
The resistance thing keeps coming up.. not likely because of the way/mode the OA seems to kill the mites.
Quote from: RustyUPNY on August 31, 2016, 08:29:56 AM
If I use the OA I will be vaporizing it. I was trying to not pull the supers off only because there is a massive golden rod bloom coming in right now.
Just place cardboard or plywood between the brood chambers and honey. Remove it in 5 or 10 minutes. The OA crystallizes back fast.
Ding Ding Ding and we have a winner. Sc-bee has it. From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe (no, there isn't a guarantee), but takes a bit more beekeeper effort.
The treatment free debate will rage on, but OAV appears to be a good option when a treatment is required.
Of course, when Monsanto gets their RNAi technology working it will fix everything. :wink:
Quote from: texanbelchers on August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe
This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.
Quote from: Acebird on August 31, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Quote from: texanbelchers on August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe
This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.
I think an insect or mite or human builds up a resistance to a pesticide that's a chemical. OA seems more analagous to a brick. It's an acid, not a chemical. I'm certain someone else will be able to more eloquently expand on this, but this is my initial thought.
Quote from: Acebird on August 31, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Quote from: texanbelchers on August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe
This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.
To clarify, I was speaking of damage to the bees by the MAQS and dribble method. The resistance buildup was in reference to the mites.
As already stated, OA does not appear to act as a "normal" chemical pesticide in this application. From the pictures I have seen it is more like burning your hands and feet so you can't get to or hold onto your food.
Quote from: Acebird on August 31, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.
It's impossible to generalise like this. It's true that many people still use dribble, but VOA has become increasingly popular. At the time of writing, there is no evidence whatsoever of any resistance having developed in the use of OA by either method.
There is no recorded evidence that VOA is hard on either bees, open brood or Queens (capped brood is not affected) - thus it's important not to confuse the two methods of administration.
The BIG difference - as I see it - between the two methods of administering OA, is that with sugar-syrup dribble there is a high probability of the bees ingesting some of the compound. That could cause harm - which is why I've never used dribble. But with VOA - which is a more accurate abbreviation to use (*) - the OA dust generated is unable to enter the body of the bee (thanks to the hairs surrounding and protecting the spiracles), and thus contacts the mite only on the exterior of the bee's body.
LJ
(*) Vapourised Oxalic Acid describes the process perfectly - if we use the word 'Vapourised' in the past tense - for OA only exists as an invisible vapour for a brief period when it first leaves the heat source.
As soon as the OA becomes visible in the form of a white cloud, this is an indication that the OA has reverted to it's solid state as a fine microcrystalline dust, the particle size of which is too large to be inhaled by the bee.
In contrast, MAQs produce Formic Acid vapour which, in this gaseous form, can be readily inhaled by the bees. Presumably it is this difference which lies behind the safety (from the bees' point of view) of VOA, compared with the numerous tragic reports of MAQ use.
Quote from: little john on September 01, 2016, 03:49:57 AM
It's true that many people still use dribble, but VOA has become increasingly popular.
These are the key points 1. You already mentioned the collateral damage that can occur with OA dribble and 2. OAV is new. There is not a long history of use, yet claims keep coming up to the effect that there is.
If the OA works by burning the feet of the mite why wouldn't it do the same to the feet of the bee, it's eyes, antenna or any other sensory gland? It might not kill the bee but it sure as heck has to make a difference.
OAV has been around at least a decade and a half in the US (though not approved). It was around in Europe before that. The pictures I've seen that purport that it burns the legs off of the mites are obviously two copies of the same picture of a mite with one photoshopped... I don't think anyone knows for sure how OAV works. But you are correct. Whatever it does to mites it does to bees it's just that bees, being larger, have less noticeable problems from it. For sure it disrupts the microbes and it may do physical damage to them. The OAD damages the bees' malpighian tubules and shortens the lives of the bees.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm
Quote from: Michael Bush on September 01, 2016, 11:38:39 AM
OAV has been around at least a decade and a half in the US (though not approved). It was around in Europe before that. The pictures I've seen that purport that it burns the legs off of the mites are obviously two copies of the same picture of a mite with one photoshopped... I don't think anyone knows for sure how OAV works. But you are correct. Whatever it does to mites it does to bees it's just that bees, being larger, have less noticeable problems from it. For sure it disrupts the microbes and it may do physical damage to them. The OAD damages the bees' malpighian tubules and shortens the lives of the bees.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm
What do these initials stand for?
BEE HAPPY Jim :)
Quote from: Jim 134 on September 01, 2016, 11:48:58 AM
Quote from: Michael Bush on September 01, 2016, 11:38:39 AM
OAV has been around at least a decade and a half in the US (though not approved). It was around in Europe before that. The pictures I've seen that purport that it burns the legs off of the mites are obviously two copies of the same picture of a mite with one photoshopped... I don't think anyone knows for sure how OAV works. But you are correct. Whatever it does to mites it does to bees it's just that bees, being larger, have less noticeable problems from it. For sure it disrupts the microbes and it may do physical damage to them. The OAD damages the bees' malpighian tubules and shortens the lives of the bees.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm
OXALIC ACID DRIBBLE?
What do these initials stand for?
BEE HAPPY Jim :)
Littlejohn-- if it is VOA should it be DOA... ouch..... OAD sure looks better anyway :shocked:
If you reverse the letters at this point in time it would cause confusion and gain nothing on its meaning.
Quote from: Michael Bush on September 01, 2016, 11:38:39 AM
OAV has been around at least a decade and a half in the US (though not approved). It was around in Europe before that. T I don't think anyone knows for sure how OAV works. But you are correct. Whatever it does to mites it does to bees it's just that bees, being larger, have less noticeable problems from it. For sure it disrupts the microbes and it may do physical damage to them.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm
Well I do not know what make my radio in the car work but I know it does. Don't know how the OAV treatment works at killing mites but it sure has done a great job for me on my hives with no ill effects that have been seen on my bees.
Quote from: Groundhawg on September 02, 2016, 10:24:03 AM
Well I do not know what make my radio in the car work but I know it does. Don't know how the OAV treatment works at killing mites but it sure has done a great job for me on my hives with no ill effects that have been seen on my bees.
The point is that "Someone" can explain exactly how the radio works. As far as I can find "Nobody" knows exactly how and why OA works, just that it does. Once the mode of operation is identified much (never all) of the speculation on bee damage and mite resistance will go away.
It seems the search now is to find the best way to create and deliver the OA vapors into the hive. There are definite tradeoffs of cost, speed, safety, ease of use, etc. for the various devices.
OAV=Oxalic Acid Vapor
OAD=Oxalic Acid Dribble
Quote from: Michael Bush on September 02, 2016, 04:49:58 PM
OAV=Oxalic Acid Vapor
OAD=Oxalic Acid Dribble
Thank you Michael Bush
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Quote from: texanbelchers on September 02, 2016, 03:51:04 PM
Once the mode of operation is identified much (never all) of the speculation on bee damage and mite resistance will go away.
For years we thought that of antibiotics, ddt, how many other chemical solutions or fixes. It is our children that will find out how stupid we were while we pat ourselves on the back now.
I seem to remember a discussion about caging the queen for three weeks. This allows all the brood to hatch and with no brood for the mites to lay their eggs on they take a heavy hit. Three weeks later the queen is released and things go back to normal with far fewer mites. Far fewer bees also but no chemicals.
Quote from: Dallasbeek on August 31, 2016, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Acebird on August 31, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Quote from: texanbelchers on August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe
This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.
I think an insect or mite or human builds up a resistance to a pesticide that's a chemical. OA seems more analagous to a brick. It's an acid, not a chemical. I'm certain someone else will be able to more eloquently expand on this, but this is my initial thought.
Any method of control that doesn't have a 100% kill rate, physical or otherwise, is going to build resistance.
To use your brick analogy, if you're smashing mites with a brick, you're going to smash the ones that are the most visible to you, and move the slowest. The faster, less visible (maybe lighter colored) ones survive most often, so the population trends towards faster moving and lighter colored.
Current though is Its not a "medicine" Crazytalk....its a physical treatment so there is no resistance... the current thought is that VOA works something like diatomaceous earth where the crystals tear up or burn the soft parts of the mites.....its not something that can have a resistance built up as you could with a pesticide or an antibiotic.
APIVAR--is amitrz base for the active--section 18 allows this in most states
amitraz wont foul the comb--the methods of achieving this control have been
in use for around 30 years--- no matter what is brought to the tabel--it falls
short of the results of amitraz--it is hard to have a treatment to accommodate every
type of need --BROOD __ NO BROOD -HIGH TEMP -LOW TEMP )the list goes on-
I find it hard to be live this thread is stuck on oxcilicacid
amitraz has had its dark period with off label use --and there has been much debate
over the fact that amitraz in its pureform leaves no residue in the comb--this has been
suported by the fact that honey produceers cant test for amitraz--but they cn and do
test for by prouducts of the miteside that is used off label--agriculture use of tackit---
there is a comon pharse of beeing on a treadmill when it comes to treating bees--but i belive
that replaceing beeevery year is the worst tread mill --- :rolleyes: just sayingg---RDY-B
The OP asked about 2 options, Apivar was not one of them.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here. All claim great results. All have varying impact on the colony. Costs seem to be about the same when you consider product, equipment and time. Resistance is a consideration for all to some degree.
MAQS - strong colony / queen
7 days with supers on
Temperature specific
MAQS - weak colony /queen /nuc
21 days with supers on
Temperature specific
Apivar
42 days no supers
OA
3 treatments at 7 day intervals supers on immediately after each.
Quote from: texanbelchers on August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
Of course, when Monsanto gets their RNAi technology working it will fix everything. :wink:
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger ......... EXCEPT Monsanto. Monsanto WILL friggin' kill you !!!"
So will a car, but you use one every day. Life as we know it wouldn't be possible without chemical companies. This forum is for beekeeping; please keep non-related issues to yourself.
I should clarify, I don't think they are perfect or that any product fixes everything. However, they do a lot of good everyone appreciates and some of the political stands are based on opinion and not fact.
**The OP asked about 2 options, Apivar was not one of them.**
yes but that's they irony --is he informed about this option???--also its not just apivar--
its the active that the thread i posted points to -- that would be AMITRAZ--we treated hives today with
AMITRAZ-the invioment of no brood breaks is a multiplier for mites --we in this enviorment dont
play Russian rullette--take care-- :rolleyes: RDY-B
Quote from: Caribou on September 03, 2016, 05:44:06 PM
I seem to remember a discussion about caging the queen for three weeks. This allows all the brood to hatch and with no brood for the mites to lay their eggs on they take a heavy hit. Three weeks later the queen is released and things go back to normal with far fewer mites. Far fewer bees also but no chemicals.
I think I would like to read thru this discussion, if you can find it before me would you link it? I imagine the best time would be toward the middle of Spring flow, so that the population is still at peak til the end of flow, and starts to dwindle after harvest?
This is one: http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=26890.0 (http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=26890.0)
Also, you can read up on OTS queen rearing. In one of the discussions of the similar behavior after the new queen lays a round of brood.