I got 2 booming over wintered hives that I would like to split. I have order 2 mated Queens due on the 19 of April. My plan is to take 2 or 3 frames of larva, and brood (with no bees on them) from my hives, put them in 2 separate hive bodies and put them back on my 2 booming hives above a queen excluder and let the booming hives take care of the brood until my queens show up in a couple of days. When my queens come in a few days take them off my hives and add the queens, honey frames and drawn comb and set them on their stands. Is there any problems doing this? I would have everything all split and ready to go. I could do the split on the next warm day within 8 or 9 days of the queens arriving.
I essentially plan on the same type of split this year. I have not yet done this so take what I say with a grain of salt and hopefully somebody can come and confirm/reject what I have to say. My biggest concern would be all of the brood would be capped or possibly emerged in 8-9 days, depending on its state when you put it above the excluder. From what I have read nurse bees will cover open brood more than capped. So if this were me and I wanted to setup frames beforehand I'd consider a frame or two of open brooder split to be put above the excluder the day before. You can then shake bees off of them and put the frame back in the hive. The benefit of you plan is that you will be able to split with mostly capped brood which means rapid population expansion. Hope this helps
When the queens arrive they will be OK in their cage with their attendants for 24 hrs, unless they have been in the post for 5 or 6 days.
When the queens arrive take 2 frames of brood,, one with grubs and eggs, the other capped and may be hatching. Put these above the Qx.
The nurse bees will come up the look after the grubs. You need nurse bees to attend the queen.
Next day take the 2 brood frames, 1 honey all with bees on them and put them in your nuc. Add on new frame and you have your 4 frame nuc. You could shake in an extra frame of bees for more field bees if you want a stronger hive quicker.
The alternative to this is just take the super after the 24hrs, with the 2 brood and the rest on the bees, add it to a new bottom, plus lid, leave for 4-6 hrs for them to realise they are queenless and add your new queen in her cage.
I would shift the new hive to a new location 2 or 3 km away for a few days so the field bees stay with the new hive and don't return to the old hive.
I would shift the nuc as well if you go that way.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on April 11, 2017, 04:50:10 AM
When the queens arrive they will be OK in their cage with their attendants for 24 hrs, unless they have been in the post for 5 or 6 days.
When the queens arrive take 2 frames of brood,, one with grubs and eggs, the other capped and may be hatching. Put these above the Qx.
The nurse bees will come up the look after the grubs. You need nurse bees to attend the queen.
Next day take the 2 brood frames, 1 honey all with bees on them and put them in your nuc. Add on new frame and you have your 4 frame nuc. You could shake in an extra frame of bees for more field bees if you want a stronger hive quicker.
The alternative to this is just take the super after the 24hrs, with the 2 brood and the rest on the bees, add it to a new bottom, plus lid, leave for 4-6 hrs for them to realise they are queenless and add your new queen in her cage.
I would shift the new hive to a new location 2 or 3 km away for a few days so the field bees stay with the new hive and don't return to the old hive.
I would shift the nuc as well if you go that way.
Thanks for your reply Oldbeavo! I do know how to make a split, probably a half a dozen other ways than I wanted too do above but my question was particularly about the way I am wanting to do it above. It seems to me if I get them ready the next
warm day here in Michigan I would be farther ahead. Your way assumes the day before they arrive it will be warm but not necessarily so in April. Its looking like the next day to warm up to the high 60's low 70's will be April 15. Today it's 40*. That would be 4 to 6 days before my queens arrive. Any eggs or larva put into that split should be fine sitting on top of a booming hive and should populate it self with nurse bees from the hive below the excluder. The day the queens arrives lift the split off the booming hive and set it on it own bottom board and in 4 or 5 hours add the caged queen. There shouldn't bee any chilled brood this way as the split was done on a warm day.
If you pick the box off and just add the queen aren't you taking a chance that they started cells? My biggest concern of buying early queens is how do they keep them warm in transit?
Quote from: Acebird on April 11, 2017, 10:11:59 AM
If you pick the box off and just add the queen aren't you taking a chance that they started cells? My biggest concern of buying early queens is how do they keep them warm in transit?
Ace..you bring up a good point about keeping the queens warm during transit but the USPS assures me the are insured if they arrive dead. As far as your other point about them starting queen cells I am not sure I follow your reasoning on this? Wouldn't the pheromone from the new queen prevent this? Even though I would use a 8 frame medium boxes to house the brood and queen it wound only have 5 frame in the hive body with styrofoam filler on both sides to reduce the volume. Her pheromone should easily move through the hive. Or are you talking about them starting queen cells while on the booming hive do to them being farther way from the existing queen or existing brood nest?
Bill,
I just ran a few splits when the weather went near freezing for two nights. Everything worked well. I know the queens were still in their cage at least one of those nights.
As soon as I got the queens I made the split. Similar to putting a package in a hive for the first time. The only preparation I made was to select the replacement frames (drawn comb or not).
My advice (FWIW) is not to do anything until you make the split, but get your queens in the splits as soon as possible. I have had mixed luck leaving queens in their cage over a couple days.
Good luck making your splits.
Quote from: billdean on April 11, 2017, 10:32:20 AM
Quote from: Acebird on April 11, 2017, 10:11:59 AM
If you pick the box off and just add the queen aren't you taking a chance that they started cells? My biggest concern of buying early queens is how do they keep them warm in transit?
Or are you talking about them starting queen cells while on the booming hive do to them being farther way from the existing queen or existing brood nest?
This is what I was thinking but maybe it isn't a problem with enough open brood.
We find if you shake the bees off and put brood above the QX in the afternoon they will still have their queen smell from below and so by the next day there should not be any QC's started.
If the weather was warm and swarming was possible then they may panic and begin to start QC's, but after a few days you could check and knock them off. You could leave it until day 9 after putting your Q in to check to see if your new Q is laying and if you find QC's and have your Q laying then you could take the frame with the cells add an open brood frame and start a nuc, or knock them off.
The process of putting open brood up into the super to gather nurse bees without worrying about taking the Q has been done as short as 3-4 hrs so can be done on the same day.
When you add the Q in her cage don't put her in the middle of the frames, put her b/n 6-7 in the center or even 7-8 if the super is full of bees. We use 6-7 the most.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on April 11, 2017, 06:59:06 PM
When you add the Q in her cage don't put her in the middle of the frames, put her b/n 6-7 in the center or even 7-8 if the super is full of bees. We use 6-7 the most.
That is a good bit of info I didn't know. I think it makes sense.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on April 11, 2017, 06:59:06 PM
When you add the Q in her cage don't put her in the middle of the frames, put her b/n 6-7 in the center or even 7-8 if the super is full of bees. We use 6-7 the most.
I use 8 frame medium boxes. So I am assuming the queen cage would be between 5-6 or 6-7?
In an 8 frame we use 6-7. but 7-8 can be used.
A very good beek said it keeps the queen out of the main hussle of the hive and the further you go to the edge there are workers and drones.
So the bees get the smell of her rather being put in the middle of brood etc
We will give a new hive such as a split a shake of icing sugar just to add a bit of confusion. Every one is licking icing sugar and wondering what is going on, when it all settles down "oops" we have a new queen.