Hi All,
I had an idea of splitting a hive in spring using swarm pheromone but have no idea if it would work.
I may try it this Spring but thought I'd run it by the forum to see if anyone had tried something similar.
(PS it Autumn here in Australia).
Start with a full 2 box hive in Spring.
Remove lid and put queen excluder on top.
Put a new box on top of queen excluder.
In the new box put 1 frame with eggs cut from a from a hive you want to breed from
(only a dozen eggs or so and no larva so they don't make a queen from larva only from eggs).
Spray sugar syrup on the frames in the new box.
Spray a little swarming pheromone on the frames with the eggs in the new box.
Close up for 30 minutes.
I'm hoping after doing this that a bunch of bees will migrate up into the new top box.
You then remove the top box and set aside as a new hive.
Block the entrance for 2-3 days to stop drift back to original hive or move to a new location.
My hope is that you would harvest enough bees to raise a new queen from the eggs you put in.
You also might slow down/dissuade a strong hive in Spring from swarming possibly by removing the
bees most interested in swarming (Though this is a bit doubtful as the same bees that decide to start
swarming behaviour in a hive might not be the bees that leave with a swarm).
Cheers
Damien
Hello Damien.
Scenario 1: bees will climb up through the excluder, smell the eggs, identify them as not being of their own queen ... and eat them.
Scenario 2: bees will climb up through the excluder, smell the eggs, accept them, wait for them to hatch, and then make a supercedure queen from one or more larvae which result, due to the absence of the so-called 'footprint pheromone' indicating (falsely) that their own queen is failing. (Or draw emegency queen cells if you've already moved the box away from the parent hive)
I really can't see any advantage in either the donating of eggs, or applying 'swarm pheromone'. What most people do when working with this principle is to simply install a frame of BIAS above the QX, without any attached bees. Bees from the 'mother hive' are then immediately attracted to the open brood and will climb up through the QX and begin feeding that brood. Providing there are viable larvae in that frame, then they'll draw supercedure cells as 'Scenario 2' above. They may or may not eat any remaining eggs - but that's of no consequence.
LJ
Thanks LJ.
For some reason I thought eggs from another hive would be 'safe'.
I never considered that a hive would reject eggs.
Still lots to learn...
Cheers
Damien
Quote from: damienpryan on May 01, 2017, 08:41:09 AM
Thanks LJ.
For some reason I thought eggs from another hive would be 'safe'.
I never considered that a hive would reject eggs.
Still lots to learn...
Cheers
Damien
Hi Damien - that's true for ALL of us ... :smile:
When a queen lays an egg, it's coated with that queen's pheromone as it leaves her body, and so bees are then able to distinguish between 'their' eggs, and those from a foreign source. But - when a young larva 'hatches', the thin egg membrane dissolves, and disappears along with that queen's pheromone.
Which is the principle reason people use young larvae rather than eggs for grafting, because bees will very often eat those eggs which don't 'smell right' - i.e. have an identical smell to that which they're used to.
Some people rubbish this idea, as they've had success with grafting eggs rather than larvae - but my money would be on them just being lucky. I'd say there's a sound reason why nearly all beekepers who graft, use larvae and not eggs. Personally, I play safe and use frames of BIAS.
I guess you guys must be getting a tad 'itchy' to get going ? A lot of time yet before your Spring comes around. Up this end of the globe, we're just getting started ...
Best of Luck,
LJ
What is BIAS?
Damien, You box will have no resources to raise queen if all you started with was frame of eggs. Doesn't even have resources to feed brood.
>Spray a little swarming pheromone
I assume you mean lemongrass essential oil. It's not really "swarming" pheromone. It's more of a "rallying" pheromone. It won't make them move into a different box on the hive. The brood probably will. Most likely the nurse bees will smell the open brood pheromone and go up and feed them (depending on the current state of resources in the hive they might remove them). They may make a queen if there is enough distance between the queen below and the brood comb above. But the lemongrass oil is unnecessary.
Quote from: Acebird on May 01, 2017, 05:43:51 PM
What is BIAS?
Brood In All Stages.
QuoteDamien, You box will have no resources to raise queen if all you started with was frame of eggs. Doesn't even have resources to feed brood.
His plan is to place a box above a queen-right colony with a QX between them, and encourage nurse bees to ascend through the QX and thus populate that box. That's where the 'resource' comes from. Pretty standard stuff when using BIAS. I do this frequently - but never with eggs.
LJ
LJ it won't have any honey, it won't have any pollen and it is unknown what comb it will have. Nurse bees yes, but they got to eat too.
Isn't this the Cloake method, in essence?
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Quote from: Acebird on May 01, 2017, 08:45:17 PM
LJ it won't have any honey, it won't have any pollen and it is unknown what comb it will have. Nurse bees yes, but they got to eat too.
Well - the PRINCIPLE is that a comb of BIAS is placed above a QX and in that position one or more supercedure queen-cells are drawn from viable larva.
A more COMPLETE description is that when the comb containing the BIAS is placed above the QX, it is flanked by combs of pollen and honey. Indeed, often two or more combs of BIAS are installed, just to make sure. From then on, the nurse bees bring whatever they need for drawing the supercedure cells up from the parent hive below.
yes2matt: Isn't this the Cloake method, in essence?
In essence, yes. One difference is that Harry Cloake's method generates a state of queenlessness for a short time, invoking the emergency response which causes the bees to start relatively large numbers of queen-cells - so grafts can be installed immediately.
The origins of this 'QX' method can be found in Doolittle's 'Scientific Queen-Rearing', way back in 1889. Doolittle discovered that putting a comb of viable larvae on the 'other side' of a QX which separated it from the main colony would cause the bees to draw supercedure queen-cells there.
He assumed (quite rightly, as it turned out) that this was due to a lack of some pheromone or other. This was to become Doolittle's favourite method of getting his cell-cup 'grafts' fully drawn into queens. He waited until supercedure cells were started, and then removed them, replacing them by a frame of his own 'grafts' which were then duly drawn out as he required. A clever guy.
So there are differences between Cloake and Doolittle, but in essence - yes, they have much in common.
LJ
Quote from: Acebird on May 01, 2017, 08:45:17 PM
LJ it won't have any honey, it won't have any pollen and it is unknown what comb it will have. Nurse bees yes, but they got to eat too.
To Ace's point, the OP stated adding frames sprayed with sugar water. To succeed it would need to have honey & pollen resource frames in which case the sugar water would be pointless.
>The origins of this 'QX' method can be found in Doolittle's 'Scientific Queen-Rearing', way back in 1889
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#CHAPTER7
"I now began using the queen-excluding metal [Fig. 8, page 60], between the upper and lower stories of the few hives that I worked for extracted honey, and in one or two cases, brood from the lower story was placed in the upper one, over the queen-excluding honey-board. Again I had queen-cells built as in the former case, which were cared for as well as any I had ever seen, although, as a rule, but two or three would be built on one lot of brood.
"In thinking the matter over one night, while I was awake, doing some planning for the future, it came to me that these cells were built under precisely the same conditions, that the cells were when the bees were thinking of superseding their Queens, at which time I was enabled to get the best of queen-cells built. To be sure, the Queen below was a good one, but as she could not get above, the brood that the bees had there did not increase any, so they concluded that they must have a better Queen in this part of the hive; hence they went to work to produce one.
"One thing that I had always noticed was, that where the bees had their own way in the matter, where cells were built to supersede a Queen while she was still in the hive, they never started more than three or four cells, while one or two were more often built than otherwise. That the bees only built about the same number in these cases of brood above a queen-excluding honey-board; and, also, that I have never known a swarm to issue, simply from having queen-cells in such an upper story, when none were below, shows that they consider the conditions the same as in case of supersedure.
"Having become satisfied that I was right on this point, the next step was to see if the plan which had proved so successful with the colony about to supersede its Queen, would work above the queen-excluding honey-board; and if it would, I would be a step farther in advance than I had ever been before; for in it I saw something of great value to the bee-keeping fraternity in the future.
"A frame of queen-cups were now prepared as before, and to make sure of success, if such a thing were possible, I raisedd two frames of brood (mostly in the larval form) above, so as to get as large a force of nurse-bees about the prepared cells as possible, to properly feed the queen-larvae. The prepared frame was placed between the two having brood in them. In two days I examined this frame, and found that my conclusions were right, for every cup had grown to a half-built queen-cell, while the little larvae were floating in a quantity of royal jelly, that more than half filled the cell. These were finished in due time, and from them hatched Queens which were every whit as good as any I had ever seen.
"I now had things brought to where I was master of the situation, so that I could rear the best of Queens, just when and just where I wanted them, and that, too, with a laying Queen in the hive at all times, so there would be no loss in honey-production, to any apiarist, while rearing Queens; and the beauty of it all was, that these cells were all on a stick, so that they could be made use of without injuring any of my good combs, or in any way endangering any of the occupants of the cells.
"Not knowing to what extent this plan could be carried, and yet secure good Queens, I went slowly at first, not giving any one colony a second prepared frame, till after the first had been removed and more brood placed above. As I leave the cells where they are built, till they are nearly ready to hatch, or for ten days, this, took five colonies to give me a lot of queen-cells every other day, as I desired them, during the heighth of the season.
"The next season, wishing to see how much there was in the plan, I put in a prepared frame as soon as the first cells were sealed, and then another as soon as these were sealed, and so on indefinitely. As far as I could see, the last lot of cells were as good as the first, although, as a rule, I did not get quite as many accepted. It was a rare thing that the bees finished less than nine out of twelve prepared cells during the first season, while the bees would frequently build and properly care for the whole twelve. In crowding them so fast, they would sometimes give me only five or six, yet, as a rule, they would average about eight, so that I really gained nothing by thus crowding things.
"For this reason, I now kept along the line of work followed the first season, till the past summer, when, to see what might be accomplished, preparatory to writing this book, I gave a prepared frame to a colony every two days, and, while they did not complete as many cells on each frame as formerly, when I gave them less often, yet some cells would be built on every frame.
"In this way, I had in one colony having a laying Queen below, queen-cells in all stages of progress, from those just ready to hatch, down to larvae that the bees had just commenced to feed, by adding to the royal jelly which I had placed in the cups; and, besides this, I had Queens kept in nurseries in different parts of the upper story. I also had in this same upper story, Queens just hatched, and some just commencing to lay, by having a part of the upper hive formed into nuclei, by using perforated-metal division-boards, as will be explained farther on. It will be seen that there is scarcely any limit to what can be accomplished by this method of Queen-Rearing, and queen-fertilizing.
"However, as a rule, I think that a little better Queens can be reared by the way I worked the plan the first season, for the cells are better supplied with queen-food, where unsealed brood is placed in the upper story every ten days-enough better, in my opinion, to pay for the extra work.
"Again, I would not put over twelve wax-cups on a stick, for if more are used, the young Queens are not fed quite as well. In my experiments I have used as high as twenty-four cups, and had every one accepted and finished; but unless the colony was an extremely populous one, I did not get quite as good Queens as when only twelve were used.
"To show what may be accomplished by this method, I will say, that in the honey harvest I have prepared sticks having from four to eight cups on them, the sticks being made of the right length to crowd into any section of the hive that I was using, so as to keep it from falling down, when the section was placed between two others, in which the bees were at work over a queen-excluding honey-board; when upon going to the hive at the end of ten days, I would find as nice queen-cells, nearly ready to hatch, as any one needs to see.
"I have also had Queens fertilized and kept till they were laying, one in each section of the hive, yet this plan of producing Queens in sections, is not to be recommended, as it spoils the section from being first-class for honey, ever afterward.
"By way of caution, I wish to say, that if a Queen is by any means allowed to hatch in the same apartment where the cells are, these cells will at once be destroyed. If the bees with such a Queen, are shaken off the combs, so as to get her out of the way of more cells being built, and the bees are allowed to enter the hive below, with this Queen (as would be natural for any apiarist to do), this young Queen will destroy the one below, no matter how prolific or how valuable a Queen you may have there. This queer procedure, I bring to bear on all Queens that I wish to supersede, as will be explained farther on.
"Another thing: In the fall (or in this locality after August 15th), when the bees begin to be inactive, or cease brood-rearing to any great extent, the warmth generated in the upper story will not be great enough to produce good Queens, and as the season draws toward a close, no queen-cells will be completed, unless we feed sufficiently to arouse the whole colony into activity, and keep them thus all the time while the cells are being built. At such times I have had cells that usually mature in eleven-and-one-half days, to be from sixteen to twenty days before hatching; while the Queens would be almost black, from the same brood which produced very yellow Queens during June, July, and the first half of August. In all parts of the country where fall flowers abound, I presume just as good Queens will be reared in September by this plan, as at any time; but as we have no fall flowers here, I cannot be positive on this point.
"At any time when the bees work the cells very slowly, I know no better plan than that which was given in the last chapter, only I use the wax cells, prepared with royal jelly, as given before. Then in early spring, before the colonies are strong enough to go into the upper stories, we must use that way also, for there are not enough bees in any hive to use the above method, which I believe to be the best of all. However, much can be done by way of getting a colony strong, by giving sealed brood, so this last process can be used much earlier in the season, than otherwise would be the case.
"In this chapter, I think that I have given something of great value to the fraternity; and if it shall lead to the universal rearing of a better class of Queens, than have formerly been reared, I shall be well paid for all my efforts in this direction."--G.M. Doolittle, Scientific Queen Rearing, 1889 edition Chapter VII