Been running 10 frame for a few years and picked up a few 8 frame from a retiring keeper. Put them into service and they overwintered well and are doing slightly better than the other hives on average. I run a deep under mediums. Winter 1 deep and one medium with plenty of feed.
Found them useful as a nuc as well.
Other than size, has anyone found any down side to the 8 frames?
I was going to go to 8 frame deeps from 10 deeps but I ran into a buy in 10 deep so "The best laid plans........" out window until next year.
Is the deep and medium together big enough for a spring brood nest or do they move up into a third box? I have a 8-fr all medium set of boxes that I haven't decided whether to sell or add a couple deeps on the bottom.
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Quite often the bees do not use the outer frames.
Jim
Quote from: jvalentour on May 17, 2017, 05:27:28 PM
Other than size, has anyone found any down side to the 8 frames?
The difference is cost vs. handling lighter supers. If you want the advantage of handling lighter supers then get 8 frame. If you want the economy of operation and don't care about the weight then get 10 frame. It is that simple.
The downside. I see the hive needs to be stacked taller. :wink: To have the same amount of frames.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Quote from: jvalentour on May 17, 2017, 05:27:28 PM
Other than size, has anyone found any down side to the 8 frames?
I've got 10, 8, and 5 frame equipment. Deeps, mediums and shallows. Yes I'm a glutten for punishment. :wink: But you can't learn if you don't try it.
The biggest downside that I see for 8 frame equipment is if you buy boxes from different suppliers they may not match. I built my own and made them 13 1/2 inches wide. Mann lake's boxes are 14 inches wide. To me that is too much extra space. I had five hives over winter just fine this year that was in 8 frame boxes. They were 3 mediums tall with no extra feed. One that was 2 mediums tall, I had to add a sugar brick to them so they wouldn't starve.
If you really want to try something. Try a few shallow boxes. I actually like them better than mediums.
The biggest thing I've noticed is decreased options through suppliers. I build most of my own equipment so it's not as big of a deal, but good luck finding a cloake board or slatted rack. Having said that I do run 8 frames. There may be nothing really to it but I do think that more narrow box is more easily filled out in winter. I have never kept 10 frames, but I hear a lot about bees not using the outer frames. I don't run into much of that with 8 frame equipment. I don't think you could really go wrong either way though. Do what you feel is right.
We run 8fr deeps as brood box and 8fr deep supers. An 8 fr deep full of honey is heavy enough to lift
As far as box size, our are 12 1/4 inches inside with 7/8" walls, so 14" outside.
I found 10fr deeps too heavy when a big flow is on.
.
Quote from: Jim 134 on May 17, 2017, 08:56:21 PM
The downside. I see the hive needs to be stacked taller.
The beekeeper dictates how high the hive gets with the decision to pull or not pull. Some would consider pulling sooner an advantage. Especially if you are going after pure sources.
I do run three ten deeps frame boxes. For a brood nest. It would have to be 4/8 frame brood boxes. For a brood nest. With the extra box. The height of top of the brood Nets would be approximately 11 inches taller from 10 frames Deeps. As compared to 10 frames deeps. Also I usually put on three medium supers at a time. If bees were 8 frame boxes it would be 4 boxes. Now the hive is approximately 18 inches taller then if it was 10 frames.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
I calculate the 8 frame hive to be 4.438 higher than the ten frame hive. The 8 frame is 8 boxes high and the 10 frame is 7 boxes high and I know you don't have to go over 8 high unless you want bragging rights.
Question from downunder,
Why do a lot of US beeks run multiple brood boxes? Are the multi brood systems stationary or do you move them to different honey flows?
Very stationary for me. I think those that move hives are going for pollen contracts so their focus is building population not honey. At the end of the contract they do splits and sell bees. This keeps the box numbers down. They may go to another contract and start the process all over. It seems natural that honey comes from hives that are not moved. On warm days the comb is not going to fare well bouncing on the back of a flat bed.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on May 18, 2017, 08:37:58 PM
Question from downunder,
Why do a lot of US beeks run multiple brood boxes?
http://chestofbooks.com/animals/bees/History/Chapter-IV-The-Hive-Controversy.html sheds some light on how multi-brood boxes came to be favoured in the US, in contrast to the single large-sized brood box of the Dadant Hive which came to be favoured in parts of France & Spain. (Dadant being originally French, of course).
LJ
Acebird
Our business is honey, we do almond pollinating in August when there is very little honey.
The rest of the year we shift to follow the honey flows. We shift early morning and try to move as 2 boxes, one hive and one super with QX between. Haven't had comb collapse yet.
Our hives only ever run one deep of brood, all 8fr.
LJ needed some other program to open your link?
I just personally favor giving the queen as much room as she needs. I used to run three 8 frame deeps on all my hives, but am starting to take a more relaxed approach. The mediocre to weak hives never used the bottom deep, but the strong hives will. So this year I'll run two deeps for the smaller hives and three for the bigger hives that need it.
Also you have to keep in mind our winters. Parts of the US have miserably cold winters. We need 2-3 deeps to allow the bees to store enough for winter.
Oldbeavo, are you trucking from one coast to the other across the desert?
I think the commercials here run one brood box when they are moving.
Acebird
We shift 200 miles to almonds, but most of our honey is collected within 100 miles of home.
If there is a good flow then one trip to put empty super and bee escape, then back next day to bring home the super of honey. Our extraction is done at home.
Not all hives fill at the same pace (wish they would) and so you are back next week to harvest the rest. We run groups of 50 hives but there may be 2 groups at a site if flow is good enough.
Back to one brood box, our good queens will fill a frame totally with brood, two teaspoons of honey in the top corners, and will fill 6 frames like this, even will layout the insides of frames 1 and 8. Very rarely will they lay on the outside of 1 and 8.
These are our best queens where others will use 3/4 or 2/3 of the frame for brood and store honey in the balance. These are not usually our best hives due to not enough bees. Whether these queens would perform better with 2 brood boxes and can have honey around the brood would be interesting.
Quote from: Acebird on May 18, 2017, 05:26:20 PM
I calculate the 8 frame hive to be 4.438 higher than the ten frame hive. The 8 frame is 8 boxes high and the 10 frame is 7 boxes high and I know you don't have to go over 8 high unless you want bragging rights.
Nothing to do about bragging. If you want your bees to make honey where I live. You better have six or seven super on. Where the average yield is roughly 200 pounds per hive. If you do not have enough room on. You will slow the bees down. What happens bees can bring in nectar faster than they can evaporate the water.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Quote from: Jim 134 on May 19, 2017, 08:02:38 PM
You better have six or seven super on. Where the average yield is roughly 200 pounds per hive.
That is nuts. Split the hive, use the same number of boxes and get 100 pounds off from each hive. Way easier to work.
I know this is getting a little off topic but it is interesting.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on May 19, 2017, 07:39:30 PM
Back to one brood box, our good queens will fill a frame totally with brood, two teaspoons of honey in the top corners, and will fill 6 frames like this, even will layout the insides of frames 1 and 8. Very rarely will they lay on the outside of 1 and 8.
It would be interesting if you would get more than double the honey if you gave your good queens a second box to lay in. I know my larger hives that are laying in multiple boxes produce much more than my small to average hives. I don't use excluders so the larger hives are laying in 2-3 boxes. I have 5 hives that are 6-7 boxes tall right now(2-3 for brood, 1 empty just added last week and 3 boxes of partially capped honey). I will probably get 5-6 boxes of honey off each of these hives this year. By the end of the year they will bee back to 2-3 boxes for winter.
Quote from: Jim 134 on May 19, 2017, 08:02:38 PM
If you do not have enough room on. You will slow the bees down. What happens bees can bring in nectar faster than they can evaporate the water.
That's what I've found with my larger hives. They can draw out, fill and cap a medium box in about 2 weeks during a good flow.
Quote from: Acebird on May 19, 2017, 09:56:12 PM
That is nuts. Split the hive, use the same number of boxes and get 100 pounds off from each hive. Way easier to work.
The problem with that is if you split, you won't get 100 lbs per hive. My smaller hives only give about 1/4 -1/3 as much honey as the bigger one.
We don't stack them, may be a hive might get to 3 supers, but as they fill one we take it and replace it with an empty.. This also allows us to keep varieties of honey separate for marketing.
We wouldn't have enough supers to stack 6-7 high, on average we run 2.5 supers per hive and keep a rotation going. It would be a big cost in supers and frames for us to run 6-7 supers per hive.
Also our extraction system runs best at a max. of 70 supers per run per day.
Quote from: Acebird on May 19, 2017, 09:56:12 PM
Quote from: Jim 134 on May 19, 2017, 08:02:38 PM
You better have six or seven super on. Where the average yield is roughly 200 pounds per hive.
That is nuts. Split the hive, use the same number of boxes and get 100 pounds off from each hive. Way easier to work.
If I did as you suggested. It would be lucky if I got 40 to 60 pounds of honey per hive. I really do not want to grow bees anymore. As a beekeeper you can do one of three things you might like to do with your bees. Grow bees, do pollination or make honey,
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Quote from: Oldbeavo on May 20, 2017, 12:03:58 AM
We don't stack them, may be a hive might get to 3 supers, but as they fill one we take it and replace it with an empty.. This also allows us to keep varieties of honey separate for marketing.
That is what I said in the first place. You pull boxes off unless you want bragging rights.
QuoteIf I did as you suggested. It would be lucky if I got 40 to 60 pounds of honey per hive. I really do not want to grow bees anymore.
Good luck with that theory Jim. You have to grow bees to make honey no way around it.
There are many beekeepers that use QE's and limit the size of the brood nest to one deep. Then there are those that don't use a QE and the brood nest grows to 2 or 3 deeps. They both make about the same amount of honey. Logic says that if you let the hive grow to two deeps and split it in half it will make more honey than not splitting it. Obviously a mated queen has to be introduced. The purpose for managing the hives like this is to limit the height of the hives so you don't have to pull the honey AND to cover losses for overwintering. If you end up with too many hives in the spring you sell them off at a very high premium.
This is something a hobbyist can do if they are running 8 frame equipment and don't want to work that hard.
I suppose to get back to the original topic, the thing that has come out of the discussion is that there are many systems to harvest honey. Therefore you need to develop a system that suits you and your nectar sources.
As a bee keeper that was around when the Beatles and Stones were the biggest thing around, I need a system that suits my ability to lift and move hives, 6-7 high is too high for me in a migratory system and to shift bees it is better at two high.
This also means that I favour 8 fr due to weight and then use full depth to lessen the number of frames that we handle at extraction.
If I was a stationary bee keeper then I would still run 8fr, maybe 2 brood boxes ( as I would be interested to see what area of brood the queen would use compared with one brood box). Even 2 brood boxes I would still run a Qx for ease of management at harvesting time.
The system you develop must be a compromise of honey yield and efficient management, this is related to the number of hives you run. At hobby level the system may be different to us that have a small business of 300 hives and have moved bees 6-7 times since the end of August.
We have a range of production per hive due to circumstances (lost queen, poor honey location) and genetic quality, we have expanded rapidly in the last 2 seasons, 130 hives to 300 in two seasons. So our range of yield per hive would be 40lb at the bottom to 220lb from our best hives. Need them all at the top end.
Quote from: Acebird on May 20, 2017, 08:57:06 AM
QuoteIf I did as you suggested. It would be lucky if I got 40 to 60 pounds of honey per hive. I really do not want to grow bees anymore.
Good luck with that theory Jim. You have to grow bees to make honey no way around it.
There are many beekeepers that use QE's and limit the size of the brood nest to one deep. Then there are those that don't use a QE and the brood nest grows to 2 or 3 deeps. They both make about the same amount of honey. Logic says that if you let the hive grow to two deeps and split it in half it will make more honey than not splitting it. Obviously a mated queen has to be introduced.
Hi Brian.
What you appear to be saying is that if you take a hive of 2x-strength, and divide it into 2 hives each of 1x-strength, then - after supplying the obligatory queen - by working independently of each other their combined honey yield will be greater than that of the '2x hive'. Hope I've got that right.
I'm not a honey-farmer, and restrict myself only to 'growing bees' and raising queens. One system currently on trial here has 3 queens in one box - that's one 'mother' queen with 2 of her daughters separated behind mesh partitions. If this trial is successful, then that system will be maxed-out to 5 queens per box (one mother with 4 daughters similarly housed).
Because of this large number of laying queens (even for a relatively short time), an abnormally large concentration of various queen pheromones will exist within the box, and so I've been researching the possible consequences of this.
The only information I've gathered so far has been related to 2-queen systems - meaning
'2-queen honey production systems' in which, by the taking of two 1x-strength hives, and putting them close together with a single stack of supers over,
common to both hives - the honey yield has then vastly increased, well in excess of '2x'. In several articles, the increase in the amount of honey returned by effectively doubling the brood strength was dramatic - several hundred pounds per 'twin-hive', contrasted with seventy or eighty per individual hive. Thus
it would appear that there is an exponential correlation between brood box strength and honey-gathering potential.The only down-side to this mode of operation appears to be that it's something of a hassle to set-up and run, and as such doesn't lend itself well to migratory operation.
LJ
Quote from: Acebird on May 20, 2017, 08:57:06 AM
This is something a hobbyist can do if they are running 8 frame equipment and don't want to work that hard.
If this is your goal, I would definitely look into AZ Hives. Where you only lift one frame at a time.Also you are on a continuous Harvest cycle.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Quote from: little john on May 21, 2017, 04:34:56 AM
Hi Brian.
What you appear to be saying is that if you take a hive of 2x-strength, and divide it into 2 hives each of 1x-strength, then - after supplying the obligatory queen - by working independently of each other their combined honey yield will be greater than that of the '2x hive'. Hope I've got that right.
Or at least equal.
Assumptions:
1 The 1x split must be large enough that it does not impede either queens capacity to lay eggs.
2 This must occur before the first major flow so it is not lost.
Item 2 just about forces the need for an overwintered hive with a good queen. It is unlikely, especially where I am to accomplish this with a package or nuc. But if we are talking a package or nuc then the problem of a hive getting too high isn't going to happen anyway even with 8 frame equipment. Just about the time the package or nuc gets to the 1x size the major flow is over. The colony goes into winter survival mode and usually won't swarm unless the beekeeper makes a mistake.
A 2x hive after the major flow can become a robber hive and pounce on the little guys next to it making it continue to grow into a bragger hive. Michael P suggest making nucs in July and August for overwintering and I wonder how he avoids this potential problem. My only guess is that he robs the production hives of honey which will knock them down and then crams them full of sugar water in September to build the hive and the stores back up for winter.
If you want to keep danks and give out bad advice that's okay. I just hope someone does there own homework. Hope you have a great Memorial Day weekend.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Please translate "danks"!
Not in Oz dictionary.
Danks are colonies that don't amount to anything. The discussion has nothing to do with danks.
Danks are caused by Nature as well as poor management practices. When caused by Nature it's usually the bottom 10% of your production. This term is used by all kinds of farmers at least here in New England in the USA. I do realize this is the slang term.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
We call them dinks down here in Alabama, aka duds, aka no honey crop.
I'm with Jim. Big hives = big honey crops. Brother Adam made a point of telling exactly why small hives inevitably restrict the queens laying and reduce the honey crop. If anyone thinks a single 8 frame box has enough room for a productive queen, I'd invite you to take a look inside my square Dadant (Brother Adam) hives with 12 frames of brood. 8 Langstroth frames have roughly 56,000 cells for the queen to lay in. I'm seeing up to 90,000 cells of brood in the best colonies. When a queen is laying to her max, she can plop out over 4000 eggs per day. That only takes a queen 14 days to fill up an 8 frame Langstroth box.
So what does your 12fr brood box produce in lbs of honey in a season?
As migratory bee keepers the size of the hive and lifting become important but I also think that a good 8fr box can be very efficient in collecting honey.
Our better hives have done about 200lb in a pretty tough season, with 6 shifts since pollenating almonds. Best hive 8 stickies, full and capped in 12 days.
So many variables. If you are migratory you are bringing the bees to the nectar source. Foragers are flying short distances so it takes less bees per pound of nectar then open fields of wild flowers. If your hives have 90000 cells for brood then you have to get rid of those bees when the nectar tapers off or they will consume the crop. So like all things it will depend on what you are doing for the conditions you have for maximum yield.
Quote from: Acebird on May 18, 2017, 08:54:30 AM
Quote from: Jim 134 on May 17, 2017, 08:56:21 PM
The downside. I see the hive needs to be stacked taller.
The beekeeper dictates how high the hive gets with the decision to pull or not pull. Some would consider pulling sooner an advantage. Especially if you are going after pure sources.
Oh, if it was just that easy.
Can't pull boxes until the honey is capped Ace :oops:
Combination of Stacked too high (along with a narrower boxes) does make for some extra work and special care to keep them from wanting to become leaners.
Don
This is my first full year with the square Dadant hives. My best colony has put up 1 full square deep and one shallow of honey. That will extract somewhere close to 120 pounds of honey. Not bad for Alabama and non-migratory beekeeping. I am raising queens from the best producers this year to requeen colonies for next year.
QuoteIf your hives have 90000 cells for brood then you have to get rid of those bees when the nectar tapers off or they will consume the crop.
My bees naturally shut down brood rearing when the flow ends. By early July, they are back down to a size to fill a single box again.
Ace bird
You are absolutely correct, the variable of you area and system will determine the size of your equipment.
Where I live in Northern Victoria in Australia, I can't think of an area within 100 mile of home that would sustain a group of ours, 50 hives, for 12 months of the year. The variability of the trees between seasons is what makes us migratory. Some sites may not be used for 3 or4 years and every second year is common. So we are always looking for bud and trying to plan the rest of the season.
Quote from: Acebird on May 30, 2017, 10:24:01 AM
So many variables. If you are migratory you are bringing the bees to the nectar source. Foragers are flying short distances so it takes less bees per pound of nectar then open fields of wild flowers. If your hives have 90000 cells for brood then you have to get rid of those bees when the nectar tapers off or they will consume the crop. So like all things it will depend on what you are doing for the conditions you have for maximum yield.
Something I learned a long time ago. Location location location. Most likely you do not have a very good one. At least that's the way it sounds from your description.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
The only information I've gathered so far has been related to 2-queen systems - meaning '2-queen honey production systems' in which, by the taking of two 1x-strength hives, and putting them close together with a single stack of supers over, common to both hives - the honey yield has then vastly increased, well in excess of '2x'. In several articles, the increase in the amount of honey returned by effectively doubling the brood strength was dramatic - several hundred pounds per 'twin-hive', contrasted with seventy or eighty per individual hive. Thus it would appear that there is an exponential correlation between brood box strength and honey-gathering potential. Little John
Dead on LJ,
When I read Brian drone on I just have to laugh.
Exactly how many hives and what is your honey production Brian?
Quote from: jvalentour on May 31, 2017, 01:15:46 AM
The only information I've gathered so far has been related to 2-queen systems - meaning '2-queen honey production systems' in which, by the taking of two 1x-strength hives, and putting them close together with a single stack of supers over, common to both hives - the honey yield has then vastly increased, well in excess of '2x'. In several articles, the increase in the amount of honey returned by effectively doubling the brood strength was dramatic - several hundred pounds per 'twin-hive', contrasted with seventy or eighty per individual hive. Thus it would appear that there is an exponential correlation between brood box strength and honey-gathering potential. Little John
Dead on LJ,
When I read Brian drone on I just have to laugh.
Exactly how many hives and what is your honey production Brian?
Like I said location location location. It would be very difficult to run a 2 Queens system at the location I'm at presently. Colonies would be about twice as high. This would be modified especially on a 8 frame an hives. In my opinion also make the hive very tall..
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Jim134
I can't think of a commercial bee keeper able to run a stationary operation in Southern Australia.
I would love to be able to as fuel is our biggest expense, our bee vehicle will probably do 40,000 miles in 12 months, mostly on bee work.
I have been trying to find a site for 50 hives that would be stationary but we would have too many gaps in summer if trees did not yield consistently and then feeding vs shift to the nectar flow. Shift seems easier than 4-6 weeks of feeding.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on May 31, 2017, 07:21:54 AM
Jim134
I can't think of a commercial bee keeper able to run a stationary operation in Southern Australia.
I would love to be able to as fuel is our biggest expense, our bee vehicle will probably do 40,000 miles in 12 months, mostly on bee work.
I have been trying to find a site for 50 hives that would be stationary but we would have too many gaps in summer if trees did not yield consistently and then feeding vs shift to the nectar flow. Shift seems easier than 4-6 weeks of feeding.
I personally don't see how your posts anything to do with 8 frame beehives but that's okay. Do hope you have a great adventure in beekeeping. :wink:
BEE HAPPY Jim134 :smile:
Quote from: Jim 134 on May 31, 2017, 08:50:10 AM
I personally don't see how your posts anything to do with 8 frame beehives but that's okay.
It sounds like he is making a living using 8 frame equipment.
My post may have got off topic a bit, but I suppose I am saying that an 8 frame system is very suited to continuous shifting.
The ramble about our operation supports my preference for 8 frame deeps, and as this forum is very US dominated I thought it might give an insight into another countries bee industry.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on May 31, 2017, 06:46:09 PM
My post may have got off topic a bit, but I suppose I am saying that an 8 frame system is very suited to continuous shifting.
The ramble about our operation supports my preference for 8 frame deeps, and as this forum is very US dominated I thought it might give an insight into another countries bee industry.
Most all migratory beekeepers in the United States use ten frame boxes. Migratory operations that used certified Russian bees. Used 8 frame hives. Believe it or not certified Russian bees do have more brood on eight frames then on 10 frames. In the springtime.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Jim134
Tell me about certified Russian bees, why do migratory bee keepers use them?
Never heard of them in Australia.
We use Italians as we believe the queens are quicker to respond to a nectar flow than Caucasians.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on May 31, 2017, 06:46:09 PM
as this forum is very US dominated I thought it might give an insight into another countries bee industry.
I appreciate your input even though I am not part of the industry. I am sure there are others getting older who like to hear from those successful with 8 frame equipment on a commercial basis. You keep right on a posting. Thanks.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on June 01, 2017, 08:23:04 AM
Jim134
Tell me about certified Russian bees, why do migratory bee keepers use them?
Never heard of them in Australia.
We use Italians as we believe the queens are quicker to respond to a nectar flow than Caucasians.
There are only about 18 breeders in the world for certified Russian Queen bees. At the present time they are only in the USA . I do know they're trying to expand Canada. One thing to remember these are not your grandfather's bee. I don't believe you could import them due to possible introduction of the varroa mite. The last I knew Austria is the only place in the world that's not infected by varroa mite. The biggest reason why some commercial beekeeping use them. tolerance to varroa mites..
http://www.russianbreeder.org/
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
Quote from: jvalentour on May 31, 2017, 01:15:46 AM
The only information I've gathered so far has been related to 2-queen systems - meaning '2-queen honey production systems' in which, by the taking of two 1x-strength hives, and putting them close together with a single stack of supers over, common to both hives - the honey yield has then vastly increased, well in excess of '2x'. In several articles, the increase in the amount of honey returned by effectively doubling the brood strength was dramatic - several hundred pounds per 'twin-hive', contrasted with seventy or eighty per individual hive. Thus it would appear that there is an exponential correlation between brood box strength and honey-gathering potential. Little John
Dead on LJ,
When I read Brian drone on I just have to laugh.
Exactly how many hives and what is your honey production Brian?
If I could just clarify: if I had two "double deep 8fr" hives, I could put them right next together and stack some 10fr mediums centered on the pair. And both colonies would work together on the common super?
That would expose a couple of frames at the top of each brood nest, and I'd need a little cover on each side. But then I could feed in frames of brood from a couple nucs, without tearing down the stack.
This is possible? Reasonable?
Yes, but keep in mind you are adding brood frames to the outside of the box. OK in summer but not in cold months. I don't like the idea of a tower because now you really got to be on top of the supers filling to fast and if they don't cap them it is a pain.
>This is possible?
Yes.
> Reasonable?
Yes.