Hi, All!
In an effort to save a small 2 frames nuc hive over this winter, I've added supplement heat to my current set up. Without this supplement heat at the most critical time a late winter arctic chills here will ditch them in for sure. Such a dwindling nuc hive will not stand a chance of surviving. My net research showed that a winter cluster prefer their internal hive temp. around 85F when brood less and with broods around 93F. This also correspond with my hive observation so far.
If the internal brood nest temp. warm up too much then the bees will expand which will allow more air flow to cool down the brood nest.
In the top empty nuc box I have a small 100 watt ceramic light bulb. The bottom box where all the nectar/pollen frames are at, I have 2, 10 watt small animal heat pads next to the edge of the box wall on either side. They still have small patches of cap broods and eggs in the middle nuc box. The queen still continue to lay with flying weather in the low 60s at day time. Foragers are still flying and collecting from the late blooming Loquat flowers providing both nectar and pollen.
It is now almost a month since using the supplement heat set up. Even though we're in zone 9, the nightly winter temp. will dip in to low 40s at times. This will give them the chilled brood if there aren't enough bees to cover the broods. Foragers are still dying by the day but there are the newly emerged young bees that will replace them. In order to measure the inside hive temp throughout this winter, I have 2 probes on at all time. One measure the inside brood nest temp while the second probe measure the hive temp in the top box next to the 100 watt bulb connected to a temp. controller.
When it was warmer 3 weeks ago, I set the brood nest temp. at LB = 83F and UB = 85F. Now as mid-Autumn approaches, the night time temp is in the low 40s. Tonight's hive temp reading is at 83.4F and brood nest temp at 93.3F. Seeing that the brood nest temp is around 93F I've raised the controller temp at LB = 85.5F and UB = 87F.
I still see some bees next to the light bulb screen warming themselves up tonight. Maybe this temp. setting is still too low.
As you can see, even with the controller temp up a bit it is nowhere near the 93F brood nest temperature inside.
My question is should I raise the controller temp. even more say 90F? What is the ideal inside hive temp. (not the brood nest temp) to set over this winter?
Wow! It seems to me you are trying to do for the bees what they have done for themselves for millions of years. I don't know where to start, but I'll just pick a spot. The bees will regulate the temperature very well for themselves. They need nutrition a lot more than they need a light bulb in the hive, which is usually dark. In fact, I don't know what a light bulb in the hive might do to them. Where in California are you, for goodness sake? You aren't in the high Sierras, because you say the nighttime temp sometimes goes to 40 degrees. I assume that's a +40 degrees f, in which case that's cozy for the bees.
I'll leave it to some others to comment on the rest of your posting, but I recommend you read everything on Michael Bush's website for starters.
Let us know if you have any bees in the spring.
Welcome to the forum, by the way. Ask questions and you'll get good answers here (mine being the exception). There are a lot of good people on this forum who are ready to help.
Well, a 2-frame nuc is small, so as an experiment, I'd say "why not heat the box ?"
Having said that, I very much agree with D-Beek that under normal circumstances continuous supplemental heating really shouldn't be necessary when over-wintering colonies. But - let's not forget that if colonies are really small, then in the natural environment they wouldn't have a snowball's hope in hell of surviving winter.
Over here, many beekeepers overwinter their nucs on top of full-sized colonies, in order to provide a modest amount of supplemental heating. I believe Brother Adam was one of the first to start doing this. But - this is only to keep nucleus colonies surviving or 'just ticking over' during the winter months - and it was never intended for them to be actively raising brood during this period as a result.
Personally, I'm against the use of continuous electrical supplemental heating - but can see advantages in having a small thermostatically-controlled heater installed in those boxes housing the smallest of colonies, so that should temperatures dip very low for extended periods, a modest amount of heat could then be supplied - just for a few hours - sufficient only to allow the bees to briefly break cluster in order for them to re-locate themselves onto a fresh area of stores.
LJ
Quote from: beepro on November 29, 2017, 12:08:42 AM
My question is should I raise the controller temp. even more say 90F? What is the ideal inside hive temp. (not the brood nest temp) to set over this winter?
I would say definitely no. In winter the ideal temperature is 40 ish. It keeps the colony from consuming needed resources. The sensible thing IMV would be to add bees and food if needed to this hive and allow the queen to rest from brood rearing if the colony should choose to do so. It doesn't make sense to me that if a colony was short on food and short on bees that you would add the one thing that it doesn't need, a heat source.
Assuming your experiment went your way and these bees survived. What is the usefulness of it's success?
I also have a 2 frame hive that I am over wintering in about the same climate as yours. Mine is my observation hive that is on my screened in patio. Instead of adding heat, I added several layers of blankets. So far it is working well. I just have to keep a small vent open in the top to allow a little bit of air flow. .
Jim
I would keep heat to 35-45 f. I keep bees in a shed at that temp.
Quote from: Acebird on November 29, 2017, 09:19:44 AM
Assuming your experiment went your way and these bees survived. What is the usefulness of it's success?
What 'experiment' are you referring to ?
The OP said: "
In an effort to save a small 2 frames nuc hive over this winter " - i.e. he's trying to
save a small nuc he already has. Of course - with hindsight - combining would have been a much better option.
As I read his post, he's not trying to test or prove something by experimentation - he's simply trying to salvage a situation he currently finds himself in.
LJ
>My question is should I raise the controller temp. even more say 90F? What is the ideal inside hive temp. (not the brood nest temp) to set over this winter?
If you HAD winter, it would be 40 F... but you don't...
Thanks all for the different perspective. Our winter bee environment is pretty much like Jim's with sunny days in the low 60s. Yes, the temp. probes are in Fahrenheit and so is all reference to it. I'm not that good at reading Celsius yet. You can either call this an experiment or a real situation that I found my small nuc hive in right now. As an experiment, this is my first attempt at using black ceramic light bulb and small animal heat pads in this situation. Maybe this is what Ace is commenting on running the heater experiment. This hive will dwindle away if I don't keep the queen continuously laying in small patches of broods through out this winter. I know that this is not your normal overwintering situation using 3-5 frames of bees. At 40F in the night time lows, facing a small hive population situation they will not survive for long without new broods to replace the foragers when they died. Our weather is still warm and sunny in the day time so the foragers are out every day.
In order for the queen to continue to lay the internal hive temp. must be above 40F to allow the bees to move freely and not be in a winter cluster mode. They will continue to eat the fresh pollen/nectar brought in by the foragers from the Loquat trees. Newly emerged bees once turn into young nurse bees will continue to take care of the eggs and broods when the queen lay in the cells after a successful hatch. If the hive temp. is around 40F every night then they will not make any new broods. A blanket or styrofoam insulation will not be as efficient as a controlled hive temp. using these additional heat source.
What about the food source?
This year we don't have that much rains compare to last year. So far we have some to only wet the top 4" of soil here. With nice warm flying weather every day the foragers continue to collect from the extended blooming Loquat trees. Some trees in our neighbors' yards have not bloom yet while some are having flower buds now. Mine are half way blooming that the bees and humming birds visit every day. For additional feed, I've also added some sugar bricks, patty subs and syrup in this hive. So they are not restricted to only one food source. When the autumn min-flow is over I'm sure they will use more of these as the brood nest expand after mid-Jan. Mid-Jan of every year here is the official day that my queens started laying to expand their brood nest. To me it is also the signal that a new bee year is starting here.
I also have a big backyard that I can plant for my bees with irrigation hoses already installed. The early blooming Canola can also supplement for this hive. They will bloom after one month from sowing the seeds. These are the special fast growing variety that I found here. Maybe this is another little planting experiment I can try this late in the season.
In a way, I want to know if they can survive over this winter. Even though our winter is not as real as the snow region, we still have our yearly arctic chills coming from AK around Christmas time lasting all the way until mid-Feb. Without supplement heat I don't think they can make it. One continuous 2 weeks of arctic chills will be the end of this hive. With supplement heat even when it is frosty outside they can still take care of the broods all warm and cozy inside.
So without melting the drawn comb I set the controller at LB = 87.5F and UP = 88.5F tonight. The brood nest reading is at 92.3F right now. Somehow the bees like to maintain their brood nest around 93F that I found out. A degree difference will not affect the developing broods that much. Since the day time temp. doesn't dip that much around 90F inside it will not trigger the controller only the 20 watt heat pads are on in the bottom nuc box. The 20 watt small heat pads are not connected to the controller only the 100 watt ceramic light bulb is. This is because the 20 watt heat pads do not affect the increase in hive temp. that much that I found out. It is still too cold below 60F inside without using the 100 watt light bulb last time. So don't buy the 50 or 75 watt small animal ceramic bulb. Go for the 100 watt instead for the saving and efficiency. I think I've reach the most efficient temperature setting on the controller now. More update coming soon!
Quote from: beepro on December 01, 2017, 04:42:57 AM
If the hive temp. is around 40F every night then they will not make any new broods.
You are making statements that just aren't true. They will make brood when the temperature is negative without any heat source but their own. They need a population of bees and food that's all. You are claiming they are getting the food so just give them bees from another hive. And if you give them bees they will get more food.
The bees can't forage at night so why do you want to keep them active 24 hours? When bees are active all day they last 6 weeks. In the winter when they are not active they can just about last 6 months.
In my area we have people that will put cloths on a lab in the winter time. Isn't that all you are doing?
Beepro - your earlier post inferred that you were simply trying to help a small nuc survive the winter - but the content of your latest post suggests that you are trying to run some kind of experiment. I say 'some kind', because there's no control in place - and so I now concur with Brian (Acebird) in asking 'what will be the usefulness of this ?', assuming there is a successful outcome, of course.
To be honest, I've lost the plot regarding what your goals are when you write, "You can either call this an experiment or a real situation that I found my small nuc hive in right now." and then "In a way, I want to know if they can survive over this winter." So what exactly is your objective ?
If your priority is to help a small nuc survive, then - taking into account what you have written about current levels of activity in your locality - I'd recommend milking-off a couple of frames of nurse bees from one or more strong hives, and combine these with your small nuc - then pull the plug on your various heaters, ensure the nuc has adequate stores, and leave the bees in peace. Sorted.
But if your objective is to investigate methods of supporting marginal-sized nucs during winter, then by all means do this, but with a more organised and stable setup, having controls in place and using larger numbers of colonies - and - without tinkering with variables on an ad hoc day-by-day basis.
I'm all for experimentation - indeed, I wish more people would do this - but an off-the-cuff 'suck it and see' approach is seldom a productive way to proceed.
Regardless of the above - wishing you the very best of luck.
LJ
Note to members:
This looks like some kind of put-on to me. I received a rambling PM thing supposedly from beepro (Fin) about his queen rearing and revealing his secret location. For fun or profit?
Quote from: Dallasbeek on December 01, 2017, 01:32:30 PM
Note to members:
This looks like some kind of put-on to me. I received a rambling PM thing supposedly from beepro (Fin) about his queen rearing and revealing his secret location. For fun or profit?
His IP is from El Dorado Hills, CA
Looks like he is close to Annette in Placerville.
He says he's located in Elk Grove, near Sacramento. Whatever.
He could be working and accessing the internet at work instead of home.
>If the hive temp. is around 40F every night then they will not make any new broods.
I've seen them raising brood in March here when the nighttime temperatures were around 0 F and the daytime temps were about 10 F. It's a safe bet the hive temps were no higher than around 10 F at night.
An update:
I inspected the hive today. They are down to one frame of bees now. Not many foragers but lots of newly emerged young bees, new eggs, cap broods and some developing larvae. Even though this colony is small now somehow they're doing their best continuing to survive. So far they have not given up on the cap broods yet. Maybe that is why I don't see that many foragers out anymore as they're staying in trying to keep the cap broods warm during the day time. Either that or the older foragers are dead by now. More eggs are laid as soon as there is an empty cell in the middle of the brood nest. The only thing missing right now are the foragers because of a dwindling colony.
Little john, I'm doing both a little heat experiment on a dwindling hive this winter. Also to see if by applying heat they can make it through this winter. So what is the objective here? Applying constant heat to see if a small colony can survive. It is almost like a person on life support system. If I pull off the heater they will be dead for sure when the arctic chills get here. It is not an official experiment that there is a control group involved. That will be a future experiment when there is a chance to. The bees survival against their winter environment is what I'm trying to study on with supplement heat. If you don't call this an experiment I don't know what else to call it for the lack of term. If we simply focus on the term then we will lost focus on the present condition of this colony. Right now it is just colony growth or decline. Seems like they are declining a bit in population but with 1/2 frame of cap broods they're still surviving. No dead out yet! How long will this last remain to be seen throughout this winter.
So tell me, will a small colony survive or be dead by Spring time with or without the supplement heat?
Ace, I am stuck right now. I don't have bees from another hive to put in this dwindling hive. That is why I'm using supplement heat so that they will not be too cold when temp. dips this winter. Many will not interrupt another colony once they're in winter mode.
So no, using cloths and a controller to regulate the internal hive temperature is not the same. Also different is the size of this colony compare to a normal hive that you saw in your colony. If it gets too cold even a normal colony will not raise broods anymore during the winter time because they just want to cluster in to maintain their body temperature.
So even though they cannot forage at night, by keeping them active they can still take care of the broods and eating on the pollen frames. In winter cluster mode they can only do so much like keeping themselves warm. As more broods are raise they will need more nourishment also. That is why I still have the syrup jar in there 24 hours and refill when needed after a few days. Little do we know that an active colony with developing larvae need so much carbs to survive on. If it wasn't for the supplement heat I don't think they're free to move around tending to the brood nest. Basically I've changed the dynamic of a winter hive by using supplement heat. If this is a successful little experiment then I will try to overwinter more nucs using this method. Oh, I also forgot to mention that I'm trying to save a rather expensive tf queen in this hive. That is another objective too I guess. And adding bees from another hive is very dangerous at this time because they might ball on this expensive queen too. A risk that I'm not willing to take this winter. That is why using heat is the last option I have. So what do you think will they survive or not?
I try to post some pics but they did not show up. I'm not sure what is the problem either my browser or the site program? If I can I will post some
pics of the hive status for us to see.
Beepro,
As I mentioned, I am basically the same thing with my observation hive but I am using blankets. I just had a major hatch out to replenish the hive. Last week I changed to 2 to 1 sugar water to shut down the queens laying and get them to back fill the brood nest. They are doing just that since the hatch out. As you mentioned, wet brood requires a lot of food, keeping the hive warm does not. I recommend you switch to 2 to 1 now.
Jim
Quote from: beepro on December 03, 2017, 01:44:38 AM
So what do you think will they survive or not?
Does it matter what I think?
Anyway it appears that your main goal is to save an expensive queen. I am not the one to tell you how to do that because that is something I would never have to do. I don't value expensive queens so I wouldn't buy one. I have read a number of posts that leads me to believe there are less risky ways of banking a queen over winter. You will have to inquire about that on your own because here again I have no interest in doing that.
Maybe it is a language barrier that I am experiencing, I don't know. LJ has nicely explained that what you are doing is not an experiment. It is a test. You cannot draw conclusions from a single test. However I have a feeling that you will.
Beepro, question, what is a ?tf? queen. I don?t know that abbreviation ?tf.?
Anyway, I wish you luck trying to save the hive. I would like to more about the queen your trying to save. I raise queens and enjoy the challenge of grafting for hobby use, just trying to improve or better stated maintain traits of my favorite hives.
Blessings
"Does it matter what I think?"
Definitely, Ace! I respect and value everybody's input on this forum. This is how I learn about beekeeping.
The more test I do, the more potential for another similar one. Somehow they are all connected because one little test, if successful, will lead to
a bigger experiment later on. An example would be to track 7 nuc hives in a similar dwindling hive situation over an entire winter to see
how they do here. Then I will have the data to back up my little experiment. Yes, I agree, I don't have an experiment yet with
only one nuc hive now. There will be no conclusion drawn until it is a repeatable experiment with the same result.
For now maybe someone with this situation in a similar bee environment can use the information to keep the hive alive. Doing little test is my way of speeding up the learning process on beekeeping. Maybe I can save this hive over this winter. Hive survival come first for now!
Van, even though I only have 5 short season of beekeeping experience, I've learn a lot about beekeeping on nutrition, queen rearing, genetics and now the II process. I'm fortunate enough to find the many generous mentors with the right information to show me the how to. To further speed up my learning curve I've design many small bee tests on the many related bee topics I want to know more about. I have also invented my homemade oav gadget to effective kill off the mites. They no longer have to use the oav wand anymore! After that was done, I realized that the other side of beekeeping does not use any form of chemical treatment for the bees to survive. Many often mention about the feral bees that do not need any treatment that are still surviving. So while searching online for queens to buy for my next little bee test, I found this term "tf" or treatment free (queen, bees, or beekeeping) to start my next topic of beekeeping exploration. In it I have discover the method of mite removal management (IPM) without using any form of chemical. Simply more time devoted to take out the mites right after the main honey flow. Because in my local bee environment there are the main Spring flow and a mini-Autumn flow, I take advantage of that to clean off the mites inbetween the two. On further net research I found that a beekeeper from Canada already discovered this IPM method of mite removal 6 years ago. He's happy to give presentation about his findings and even wrote a book about his process. I have not read his book and see what I can discover in my little bee test. It is all about finding a method to keep bees alive until I can find the more resistance genetic. So far I've stumble on 2 potential queen sources that have compatible tf genetics that I can further explore next season. One source is the Cordovan bees that have 98% purity. It is good for my new II process to study about bee genetics because majority of my local bees are the carnis out there. I'm still a student trying to learn more about the tf bees. And how they can survive our bee environment in case one day I cannot be there to tend to their needs anymore. Trying to build a sustainable apiary is not that easy these days! The queen that I try to save now is from a tf source. I only source queens from tf apiary for my II process because mites and bees test goes hand in hand. Been going on for 3 seasons already.
Quote from: beepro on December 05, 2017, 04:42:51 AM
I found this term "tf" or treatment free (queen, bees, or beekeeping) to start my next topic of beekeeping exploration.
tf Treatment free is essentially observing a hive in the woods, no intervention, just observing. ctf Chemical treatment free is having a hive survive without using pesticides. That is what I am. Some people in the IPM group use mechanical means to control mites. Things like SBB, sugar dusting, culling drones, brood breaks, I guess you could include heat treatments and more. I do a little of this too. Depending on where you got this tf queen it may not have come from tf stock. It could just be a marketing spin that you paid a lot of money for.
95% of my hives have a Cordovan queen. I have two II instruments: Loc and a Latshaw. My goal is treatment free in the future; if I can breed true resistant with queens & drones from different hygienic hives. As you may or may not know inbreeding in honey bees leads to lethal condition. Just thought I I mention.
I was looking at honey bees Queen adds in a popular bee journal, yesterday. Almost all adds say the same thing, hygenic or mite resistant queens. But not a single guarantee of resistance is offered. A simple question: why so many mites when almost all major queen producers are selling hygenic queens? I could answer this question, but I chose not to.
Blessings
I have a method of screening the tf queens that I bought from the tf apiary before using them for the II process. The drones have to show true resistance first before the semen is collected. I've also order a centrifuge to consolidate the semen because popping the drones to collect the semen is too time consuming for me. So I have to invent another more efficient method to collect instead. I will be doing a series of small test to see which method is the most effective this coming season. I also bought a 10 lbs. CO2 tank connected to the clear small aquarium air hoses. My first time at the CO2 store, I asked the female clerk do you have the 20 lbs. tank? The male clerk standing next to her responded, do you want an upgrade now? Then I told them no no no after picking up the 10 lbs. metal tank. I would imagine a 20 lbs. tank all fill up will be much more heavier than that. It will be a long while before I have to refill again. After 20 II the tank is still very heavy. I don't bother with the small CO2 cartridges anymore.
My goal is the same as yours. That is why I've put together my homemade version of the II station using locally sourced materials from the dollar store. And pick up a humongous glass syringe to hold the collected semen. Other than the CO2 tank which is the most expensive of all most of the materials for the homemade II station are cheap here.
why so many mites when almost all major queen producers are selling hygenic queens?
If you don't feel comfortable posting about this topic then send me a PM. I'm happy to hear your version of it. Ever since going tf for 3 seasons now, following the mites and bees cycle with a small pair of tweezers, I have learn a lot about this issue. My opinion so far is that the queen producers did not have an isolated yard when they raised these queens. There are too many variables that the queen producers cannot control. Their claim of a hygienic queen has not been evaluated yet. Because on open mating they cannot control the outcome of which drones the queen get to mate with. The neighbor's hives a few miles down the road could be all treated bees with drones going to the local DCAs. This will affect how the bees handle the mites too.
Besides, hygienic is just another tool as part of the total outcome. Within a batch of open mated queens there are many variation affecting their ability to resist the mites. To get the compatible bees for true resistance you have to pick the right drones and queen also. Both have to show good sign of resistance in order to produce the next generation of the resistant bees. That is why you mention about the decline in vigor on II. To get around this issue I also sourced compatible queens from different apiary through out the bee season. After evaluation then the queens and drones can be use for II. It is going to be a long process over several seasons before you will see the final outcome. If you just randomly pick drones without isolating the resistance genes then the outcome will not be as effective. I don't want to waste anymore time so will evaluate the bees very carefully before using them. This is what I've learn so far. The sellers can claim but we have to evaluate them first!
An update: Moving the 100 watt black ceramic light bulb closer
Just a small update. The nightly temp. has now dip down to the 30s. The bees responded by hoovering closer to
the ceramic light bulb. Since the start of this little test, I've put the light bulb on the far left side of the hive box. On night
inspection many of them are next to it to keep themselves warm. So it was not good that they were away from the
cap broods at night time when it was that cold outside.
So today I put the 100 watt ceramic light bulb right on top of the brood nest. Tonight on a quick peek I saw that the bees
have all moved to the center of the hive where the cap broods are. With the nightly temp. so cold and a chance of frost tonight, I
also up the controller setting a bit. So I set the controller temp. LB at 92.3F and UB at 94F tonight. Too high a setting will also create a
condition that is too dry inside. In region with high winter moisture a small ceramic light bulb with lower wattage can solve this issue. The comb on the frames are drying out leaving a white grayish film. So to correct this low moisture issue, last night I made a batch of the hydrated water absorbing crystals. These crystals are also use in the baby diaper. Then stuff the hydrated crystals in a tube made out of wire window screen and put it inside the hive. The heat from the light bulb will warm up these crystals releasing more moisture into the hive. That will solve the low moisture hive condition for now. So if you are worry about excess moisture inside your hive this winter consider installing a small ceramic light bulb. Heat and excess moisture will not mix! My next controller setting will be around the time of the arctic chills which is coming soon.....
{I've also order a centrifuge to consolidate the semen because popping the drones to collect the semen is too time consuming for me.}
This process is called ?inverting drones.?
For CO2, an aquarium CO2 kit with small thread tanks will work. These CO2 tanks fit in your hand, disposable and are not expensive.
Centrifuge drone semon,,,,,,, forget this, the G force would kill.
II is a delicate process, classes start at over $1,000 a day to be trained by an expert and it usually takes more than a day. To describe the details of II, is way beyond this forum. Entire books are written on this subject.
I know all to well,,,,, I and a med. doc, produced and published the first paper on micro-manipulation techniques, bacterial. My colleges said ?it could not be done.? Well we succeeded. I taught these techniques to pathologists.
So I have experience in biological systems, genetics, and delicate equipment, but how can I possiblly explain the details: oviduct value fold, (the oviductduct has a bend and will tear) aseptic techniques, biological gentle chemicals, ph maintainable buffers. Are you aware of stretch receptors in the queen oviduct that when activated cause cessation of mating flights by the queen....
There is just so much info my friend. Better stated II is a delicate involved process.
Good luck.
Blessings
I have to do more small test before concluding that the centrifuge method will not work. It works on human semen so it might work for
the bee semen too. This is an exploration topic for me. Yes, inverting drones is a time consuming
process. That is why I'm going to try the centrifuge method. Many people will say it is not going to work like my little test on using the
ceramic light bulb. Of course, they are not the explorer type like I am. I'm always on the look out to find better method to improve on my
beekeeping experience. When others said it cannot be done then I said let me try it first. Then through a feedback and refining process I can usually find a better solution to obtain the final result. Sometimes I have to consult others with more experience to give some constructive pointers. If Edison has this idea that it is not going to work after so many failure on his little test then we will not have the LED light bulb today. Somehow a person with a scientific mind to explore will not think of "it cannot" be done but rather let's see what I can find out. One new generation of computer will build on the architecture of the last while improving on it. Think of the Apple computer when it got started compare to today's model. This is how company is build up and this is how it is already done through II to maintain the resistant genetics. I already found such beekeepers selling their expensive open mated queens through the II process initially then stabilized it in an isolated mating yard. All I have to do now is to improve on what they already have in my local DCAs using the II process. Finding compatible genetics for the improvement is the hardest part now. Where can I find more resistant bees with compatible genetics?
I will update you on the centrifuge process this season. All I have to do now is to find a better way to bypass the valve fold. Thinking of using a tiny wire to push it aside first before inserting the capillary tip. This is the part that I really have to practice on this coming season. Because my mentor did not give me much tips on bypassing the valve fold so you tube vids come to the rescue. I did not have any one-on-one training on II other than what my mentor taught me through writing. He also taught me to use the bigger CO2 tank that way I don't have to refill it all the time. All I have to do is to turn on the small know connected to the tank to use it. One large tank goes a long way!
Update: Many bees emerged today
On an early hive check today I found many newly emerged bees from the Nov. cap broods. The newly emerged bees also free up the
foragers for their normal duty. No mite to be found.
There are more foragers flying now because we still have nice weather for them to gather from the nearby Loquat trees.
Some trees are still forming their flower buds now. This should last until the end of Dec. And the hive moisture is stabilized now with the water absorbing crystals added. The comb look normal again as the white film disappeared. I still have high hopes that this hive will survive.
Beepro, I wish you the best of luck.
Some pointers: drones need to be at least 10 days post emerge. So do not use fuzzies, newly emerged drones.
You will need lure lock syringe barrels 5-20 ml and disposalsble syringe filters 0.2 micron. This will provide you with sterile solutions. You will need 1.0 molar fructose, 7 molar nacl, table salt. The fructose will provide energy to the semen and the queen. The salt is for sterility, to kill bacteria, the salt must?ve not to touch the semen, just to form a sterile barrier in the needle as an air pocket is between semen and salt. The salt is expelled between single drone loads.
A new trend is super mated queens. Pooling semen from 40-50 drones, mixing carefully then disperse 10 ul to a single queen. A queens spermatheca(holding chamber) holds 10ul. Typical queens produce offspring, from about 10-16 dads, producing 10-16 workers, a super mated queen will produce 40-50 different workers. Diversity with honeybees can be a blessings, Natures way.
However for genetic testing, usually one drone is chosen. I don?t have the resources for this so I am leaning towards super mated drones. Venereal disease of honey bees is common, Nosema, chalkbrood, trypanosomes( gut Protozoa) Virus. So drones from the healthiest hives are essential.
Beepro, how do you select, test drones? Please advise, Sir. I have much to learn.
I wish you success, for the bees. Remember, Obtain syringe barrels and filters, not expensive at all.
Blessings
Like you I still have a lot to learn about beekeeping and explore more on II.
Here is my beekeeping time line so far:
First year kill off 2 aggressive AHB hybrids hives located on top of an ant hill.
Second year started grafting to learn more about the bees without using any type of treatment.
Third year got a hive crashed situation because the hives got over load with mites. At the same time found the mite removal method and started testing on the mites and bees cycle using a pair of small tweezers.
Fourth year continue to refine my mites and bees cap broods removal method (IPM) with more testing. Success at last!
Fifth year explore on the II process.
"....how do you select, test drones?"
This is the easy part. One beekeeper that I learn from said if you're going with the tf route then you must obtain breeders from the tf apiary. This was what I did after the 3rd year hive crash. The next process is going to be much easier.
Since the seller already isolated the tf genetics for me before, all I have to do next is to continue from where they left of using the II process. All of their bees are from isolated mating station so the drones are 98% pure already. The other 2% I just don't select these drones for II. Different drones have different color let's say the Cordovan and the carnis, for example. So if you want the Cordovan bees then only select the Cordovan drones as they are already stabilized. And if you want the 2% mixed bees then only select for the grey color drones for your II process. Then it is evaluation time for mite resistance.
In a season I can go through 4 generation using the II process to back cross the different lines. Which ever hives (lines) have the most resistant I will select drones from that line to back cross. This will further purify the resistant genes on subsequent II generation. If you find that a lost of vigor is occurring then use compatible bees to diversify your gene pool a bit. Then start selecting again but make sure that the compatible bees you obtain are also from the tf apiary. Did you know that after 2 generation you can obtain purity in genetics through II? Take the Cordovan bees for example.
I'm lucky with only 2 bee species here, the carnis and Cordovan. I chose the Cordovan because 95% drones in the DCAs are the carnis genetics. If you choose a melting pot of drones then isolating and stabilizing the resistant bees will take you a long long time. Yes, you might have genetic diversity but how do you know how resistant they are? Just for isolating this traits will take you along time. How can you have so much time to evaluate them all once the II is done? In Europe there was a test done using a single drone for II that carry the VSH genes. After that they are able to make more VSH bees. From their success I've learn that first you must isolate the resistant bees then select for the traits that you want to further propagate. This is where I'm at now. I saw allogrooming and vsh traits in the heater nuc hive that I'm trying to save now. It is not the hive that I'm going to use for II but rather it is the compatible bees for back crossing in case the Cordovan lost their vigor down the road. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here just simply following what other have success with so far. Luckily, my II mentor is very close to the owners of a large bee operation. They taught him the II process and he show me what I need to know. He also took a hands on class with Sue Cobey.
To further simplify the II process, we use the single use disposable 5 ml .9% sterile saline solution order online. And no filter use because it is already sterile. If you want to save the semen overnight then use the antibiotic solution. I order them but did not use since I only harvest enough drones for one day II use. I just use it to sterile my syring and II instrument. I also use 90% rubbing alcohol to spray my II station before and after each use.
Because I built my own II station, I don't use the standard instrument like you do. I made one for less than $100 with parts mostly from the dollar store. Because of this I don't use the luer lock syringe but use the luer slip syringe instead. They came in 50 per pack order online and not that expensive either. I made 10 syringes at a time for the II process in case of an accident like a broken cap. tip. More backup is easier on the job after an accident.
Also, the drones have to be 16 days post emergence. Using drones earlier than that will not produce much semen that I found out. You can read more about drones and queen selection on the Glenn site. Drones from day 19 is better I think. Select the drones that are robust and healthy. The tiny ones cannot give you much.
The spermatheca can only hold so much semen. So make sure that the different drones that you use are from the resistant genetics also. Using different drones from the treated apiary will not give you much success through II. II is good for isolating traits and genetics (resistance) of the bees. It will give you bee diversity but not necessary mite resistant because you still have to find and isolate the genes. Can you guarantee that using a diverse drone pool for II will give you resistance? I rather use the resistant first and then diversify to maintain it through II. I need to run more test to learn more!
Update: An Ahh-Ha moment!
Silly me, I forgot about the protein patty subs while watching one of the you tube vids today. Suddenly I realized that all this time I've been concentrating on feeding the sugar syrup but forgot that bees need their protein source to make broods too. No wonder the hive is not growing everyday! Apparently what pollen stores was left inside the nuc hive did not keep up with the feeding. Now that the hive is dwindling down to one frame of bees there isn't enough foragers to bring in the hive resources and able to maintain the brood nest at the same time in expansion mode. This is a mistake that I should thought of in the first place. One silly mistake can set the hive back significantly as the weather is getting colder at night now. I'm going to drop in a batch of patty subs to see if they can make some broods this time. Hopefully this will correct this situation. Remember, syrup and protein have to be there at all time if you want to make some new bees!
This is bad!
My hive is in a depleted bees situation now. Too good a flying weather that the foragers died too fast. They have eggs, some cap broods and a live queen. But the
population is less than 200 bees now. They can barely keep up with warming themselves at night time. What is worse, we're in
the beginning of winter with frosty nights. Not much of the arctic chills yet as that will be in the middle of Jan to early Feb.
I try to keep the ceramic light bulb on constant so that they will not freeze to death. There are plenty of food for them inside.
Right now I only allow them one hour for cleansing flight every other day. It is almost like a lock down situation.
Anybody has a good option of keeping this hive alive until early Spring time? No more bees to add at this time!
Beepro, you tried your best. I am sorry, sounds like the bees will be lost, but not for lack of effort on your part. I am inspired at your attempts.
Blessings
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on December 24, 2017, 07:37:28 PM
I am inspired at your attempts.
Beepro, I am sorry that you are losing the battle but I am also bewildered why someone with such a small apiary would put so much faith in a single queen. Happy Holidays anyway.
Van, it is not all lost yet. They are down to 50 or so bees now. And the queen is still alive.
I have to be a bit creative now by catching feral bees that wander into my apiary with a small fish net. I bait them
with sugar syrup. Then introduce these bees into the hive that is now under quarantine. If I leave them flying in this nice
warm weather pretty soon there won't be anymore bees to fly. Then oops, there goes the queen!
"....I am also bewildered why someone with such a small apiary would put so much faith in a single queen."
Brian, I'm trying to save an expensive tf queen. There will be bees available only if they can hold on for
another month or so. More bees to catch to keep the queen alive longer when early Spring is here. The only way to save this queen is to introduce her to a nuc hive. Sadly, during the winter nobody sells nuc here. :( But I still have hopes to keep her alive until then!
Beepro
Bee sure to provide a little bit of water, in a sponge, to the hive. They use it to digest the honey. Make sure it has no contamination or just use a paper towel.
Jim
Yes, Beepro, best of luck to you. Please keep us posted; at least a weekly post. Again, I admire your efforts.
Blessings
Quote from: beepro on January 02, 2018, 09:56:46 PM
I have to be a bit creative now by catching feral bees that wander into my apiary with a small fish net. I bait them with sugar syrup. Then introduce these bees into the hive that is now under quarantine.
To be perfectly blunt, I would describe that as 'pratting about', rather than grasping the nettle and dealing with the problem which is right in front of you.
Earlier in this thread you wrote: "... I am stuck right now. I don't have bees from another hive to put in this dwindling hive." and " ... adding bees from another hive is very dangerous at this time because they might ball on this expensive queen too. A risk that I'm not willing to take this winter."
At one point you said you had 200 bees in this ailing nuc. That wasn't good. You say there are currently 50. Now that's a moribund colony if ever I heard of one.
You talk of 'a risk you're not willing to take' - but again being blunt -
you have no choice if you wish to save this queen.
What I would do in your place is - on the very next suitable day - shake-off a couple of combs of bees into a nuc box through a queen excluder, and leave the box with it's entrance open so that any mature forager bees can then return to their home hive. Then, only the younger 'nurse' bees will remain. Place your queen into a mailing cage along with a handful of attendants, and place the mailing cage into the nuc in the normal way. You can check for acceptance easily enough by running a match, toothpick or similar over the cage. When the 'hedgehog' of bees lift their legs obligingly to allow the toothpick to pass underneath them without any resistance whatsoever, that's a clear sign that they've accepted the queen. Then, open the cage and allow her out. Direct release. Problem solved.
Just ensure that there's adequate honey and/or fondant available. Some pollen wouldn't hurt if you have it, but it's not essential - those bees will be bringing-in pollen soon enough.
LJ
Yes, Lil John, hey Buddy, hope all is well..
Beepro stated in one of his text, that a nuc was not available. Beepro mite just make it, depends on what part of California his bees are located and weather. If adequate food is available the queen could start laying any day. I?m kind of excited, I look everyday for an update by Beepro. There is determination by Beepro to succeed with this little hive as the queen is precious. I hope the fella makes it work.
Blessings
Beepro,
Don't give up. I had a hive shrink to a very small ball of bees. After moving them into a Nuc, in late fall, I moved the remaining bees into my observation hive. On December 27, that queen had a quarter size starting to build from, at best 200 bees, and built the hive quickly. Hives at this latitude start building up on December 22, the winter equinox. That means you have a chance if you can keep them warm enough that they can survive the cold.
I think you can do it.
Jim
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on January 05, 2018, 08:56:57 PM
Yes, Lil John, hey Buddy, hope all is well..
Beepro stated in one of his text, that a nuc was not available. Beepro mite just make it, depends on what part of California his bees are located and weather. If adequate food is available the queen could start laying any day. I?m kind of excited, I look everyday for an update by Beepro. There is determination by Beepro to succeed with this little hive as the queen is precious. I hope the fella makes it work. Blessings
Hi Van - yes, I read that too - but then he went on to say that he wasn't prepared to take the risk. I interpret that as meaning that he couldn't
purchase a nuc from outside. So - what I'm suggesting is that he
makes a nuc from one of his other hives - even at a crazy time of the year (hopefully that's still possible in California) - rather than engage in catching a few visiting bees in a net. The problem with catching visiting bees is that these are highly likely to be scout foragers, and if they ever make it back to their home hives, then they will communicate that there's 'easy pickings' to be had from a colony which is completely unable to defend itself. I'm sure I don't need to spell out the rest of that story ...
Honeybee colonies have a minimum survivable population - if memory serves, it's somewhere around 200. Beepro tells us that this colony is now down to 50. At that figure, there is no hope - unless more bees can be added. Just think about the workload of larvae being fed - how many new bees can be raised in a brood cycle ? How many of the resident bees will die during that time ? It becomes a death rate vs birth rate equation. I'd say with 200, then go for it - but with just 50, my advice would be to inject more bees - that will be necessary at some point anyway, even if spring started tomorrow, so why not enlarge the colony now rather than later ?
Like others here, I'm also rooting for him, and sincerely hope that he will make it - he deserves to after all this effort - but with a population of 50 bees I have become pessimistic - hence my suggestion.
LJ
I am pessimistic about 200 bees because CA is a very tough state to raise bees that are stationary. I think it explains why he doesn't have any resources to give this failing hive. I don't really know what it takes to raise bees where beepro is. I do know that it is a lot harder then where I am.
All of you guys are correct!
I needed more bees ahh, since yesterday. But the sellers said no go. One seller is dragging me along and thought that I said
I don't want any bees on our phone conversation yesterday. Because I'm desperate for bees now I will not go further to offend him in any way.
I just told him that I needed 2 frame of bees if he can do me a favor. With rainy days this early in the season (too late for my bees) it might be a good bee year.
I'll contact the seller again this Weds. after the rains if he is still willing to sell.
Right now is the critical time for the bees. And the seller know about it too. Almond season is just around the corner. If he sell me his bees then he might risk the chance that his colonies may not make it at early build up time in Feb. I understand the hard situation the beekeepers are in right now over here. I'm sure their hives are shrinking too. And this worry the bee sellers. So if I can somehow secure 2 frame of bees then I can save this expensive tf queen.
Right now I got them in a lock down mode inside a heated 72F nuc box. I have since added the 2nd 100 watt ceramic light bulb so that the temp can be more constant inside. Put them inside a 2 frame set up, one side is the drawn comb and the other side is an empty screened frame tied together with strings and rubber bands. They are in there for 3 days already. No bees can fly because if they do I'm sure they will all disappeared in one day.
Lock down mode trying to save a queen!
I will open up the entrance again once I have my 2 frame of bees. Remember, it is not dead until the queen and bees are completely dead! I will publish my findings once this is over-- the mistakes and all that I have made. Weather play a big part to their survival.
A few years ago Michael Bush wrote about warming nucs in the winter. I seem to remember pictures. Does anyone know how that worked out.
Is it worth warming nucs in the winter in the midwest?
Warming from -20 to 10 degrees I can see a benefit but changing their environment to 72 degrees shortens their life.
>A few years ago Michael Bush wrote about warming nucs in the winter. I seem to remember pictures. Does anyone know how that worked out.
Is it worth warming nucs in the winter in the midwest?
As long as you keep them below 40 F there is some advantage. Above that you shorten their life. I'd be perfectly happy to keep them 20 F all winter... As it is I have a number of nucs this winter and no heat. They would have benefited from some heat a week and a half ago when it was -17 F...
Down to 20 or so bees. Queen is still alive!
Still trying to get some bees. But with the almonds run coming everybody is trying to
get some bees. And the price is very high now at $350 for a double deep. After the almonds run it will
be much cheaper but then my bees cannot wait any longer. The last seller said the weather is still too cold and
dragging me along for more than one week. He should kindly decline so not to waste my time. My bees cannot wait!
Up to 80 bees now. Catching bees instead of butterfly! Refusing to give up.
Yesterday was a sunny day in late after noon. The feral bees are flying and foraging on my blooming mustard patch.
So I made a net out of laundry bag cut in half on a metal wire loop. I use CO2 to temporary put the
bee to asleep while transferring it into the wire cage frame. In an hour I can catch 30 or so bees while they are
on the mustard flowers.
In another day I will release the queen out of her introduction cage into the wire cage frame with the new bees.
Many are young fuzzing looking foragers. They can be converted back to the nurse bees since there are some eggs on
the frame. If the claim is true then these young foragers are able to take care of the broods also. We'll see how many
bees I can catch with a small net on a sunny day. Cannot locate anybody to sell bees since they are at the almonds now.
Beepro,
You will need to keep these new bees locked in fro at least 3 days to get them to stay with this hive. Even then there is a good chance when they are done foraging they will still fly their original hive. If you catch them at least 3 miles from your apiary they will not know the route to their old home.
Jim
I figured that it will take a lot of bees to build up a decent nest. Too much time
wasted in catching bees on a nice sunny day. So yesterday I contacted 2 Russian
men to take the bees to their house. I asked to buy their bees but they are not
willing to sell. So they promised me to give me back my hive full of bees with the same
queen in mid-March. In return I gave them 15 brand new drawn comb for the exchange.
I will not wait until mid-March to get my bees from them. In the bee world things can change
so fast. For my backup plan I will contact another beekeeper to buy 2 of the 5 frame nuc hives from
him as soon as his bees are ready. Then order 4 mite resistant queens for the quick splits. The Spring
weather and honey flow cannot wait.
Beepro,
Bee careful. That does not sound right. Not sure what they are planning.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on January 21, 2018, 10:31:16 PM
Beepro,
Bee careful. That does not sound right. Not sure what they are planning.
Jim
Lace the sugarblocks with 90proof vodka..?.. heh :grin:
Bill
Quote from: beepro on January 21, 2018, 06:17:43 PM
So they promised me to give me back my hive full of bees with the same
queen in mid-March.
I am with Jim, how can they promise the queen will make it?
Quote from: beepro on January 21, 2018, 06:17:43 PM
I figured that it will take a lot of bees to build up a decent nest. Too much time
wasted in catching bees on a nice sunny day.
Off on a bit of a tangent here bP but may be worth a thought at your end
when you are keen enough to go chasing bees with a net to build numbers.
For local most recent (days ago) reasons I have had cause to set up
Ye Olde Bee Trap. What is needed as hardware is;
2 lid sized boards - "shims" as some know them - both have a 60mm
hole at center of plan view. One penetration has at least three thickness
of newsprint as a cover, the other leads into a Porter Bee Escape system.
I build my own but the method of one way routing is very flexible.
Bait is required and for that I use old drawn comb saturated with honey water.
Depending on number of bees captured you may also need more than
one viable colony to 'feed' the captured bees to. From what I read of your plight
one day one capture should fill your need for bees.
Soooo...
In the target zone...
the board of newsprint is laid down and a standard super placed on it.
The comb is then placed inside and the trap left for at least two hours.
On hot sunny days a shading method may be needed.
On inspection where it is seen there are copius numbers of bees working the
comb, and others stacked up in the air awaiting a turn, then it is time
place on the lid with bee escape. Wait another hour at least to then close the
bee escape and move the whole of the trap to your viable colony.
Both that colony and the captured bees will work the newsprint to combine
and so the captured bees will get on board in their new home.
In the situation I have I intend to do this as many times as it takes to
remove rogue foragers from my yard... it could take me some time to
scoop up better than 20K of bees ;-)
Bill
If you are catching foragers why in the heck wouldn't the forager go back to its own hive and bring back all her sisters to rob the hive out. I would never add foragers to a struggling hive like that.
Quote from: Acebird on January 22, 2018, 12:58:06 PM
If you are catching foragers why in the heck wouldn't the forager go back to its own hive and bring back all her sisters to rob the hive out. I would never add foragers to a struggling hive like that.
You can only do it if you lock them in and feed them or move them far enough away from their home that they cannot find their way home.
Jim
I told my 1st contact person that whatever the 2nd Russian man want to do with
my gears and queen is up to him. Basically I wrote this queen off already. But in case he can
help me with this queen's survival with a promise to return a full hive in mid-March then I'm happy with it.
My logic for making this decision was do I let this queen die or give it to someone who might be able to provide a home for her? It is better than
someone pinching a queen because the hive is dwindling away.
Catching bees will take too long to build up a nice population for her. Sending her to someone who may or may not be able to help might give
her a chance to survive. It is better than pinching her! If they come back then I will have some new bee friends. If not then let this be another
learning lesson about meeting new people especially on CL. In the end I've learned a lot about our bee environment this year. Warm CA winter
weather is not good for my bees. Cold and rainy days are better!
I've also ask the 1st contact person to make me a 5 frames nuc hive without a queen using my hive boxes and drawn frames. That he agreed because the
cost is less than buying a 5 frames nuc on the market price. Now the strategy is to buy 4 expensive Cordovan queens for expansion using these queen-less bees. By then I should have either 5 or 10 frames of bees for the expansion. This will give me 5 nuc hives and 60 drawn frames to expand. The 1st contact person asked me over the phone where is his drawn frames after I gave him the first batch. I told him I don't have that many because he would of take them all. A bit greedy there. Let's see how things work out this Spring.
Quote from: beepro on January 24, 2018, 11:27:19 PM
Warm CA winter
weather is not good for my bees. Cold and rainy days are better!
I think you are coming to a wrong conclusion. Warm, cold does not make a difference to bees. They have adapted to these climates.
QuoteNow the strategy is to buy 4 expensive Cordovan queens for expansion using these queen-less bees.
I fear this is another mistake. You would be further ahead to find out what it takes to succeed with mutts in your area. Stop the home made experiments and do what other people around you are doing. What is the point of reinventing the wheel?
I will set up 2 group of bees this season. One is for my little test or experiment and the other
is just for the normal hives with minimal hands on approach. Make splits from the normal hives and take them
to the open field for expansion. This is going to be my out yard so that I don't have to keep on buying bees anymore.
I finally got fed up with not having any bees and bought a 10 frame hive from a local Russian beekeeper last week. Then split it into 2 five frame nucs. They are
making QCs already. I'm back to this hobby again. Now all of my back yard fruit trees can be pollinated this Spring. Two more
weeks before the almond and peach trees bloom. I don't want to miss this occasion so I bought this hive at a premium.
Ace, I cannot help it but to run another little QC test. On the 4th day, while the larva is developing, I injected half ml of RJ into the cell today.
Everyday before the cell is cap I will inject another half ml of RJ into it. I have the small insemination glass capillary with a syringe to do this trick. I want to know if the added RJ will benefit the developing and later laying queen or not.
http://imgbox.com/ShvDXtB8