I live in the Canadian North. It gets to -30 F in the winter. Usually I have a frost window on my top entrance. I clean out the entrance so the bees can expel the moisture from the hive. This demarcates that the bees are generating heat.
Unfortunately today it was cold and no frost window covering the top entrance of one of my hives. I hit the hive and couldn't hear the bees buzzing. The adjacent colony had a frost window and I can hear the bees when I put my ear to them.
Both hives are covered in snow, except for the top front entrance.
Questions:
Should I be concerned about the hives covered in snow? Does this keep too much heat in the hive creating too much moisture in the hive during the very cold winters?
If I can't hear the bees, can they still be alive?
for the last 3 weeks the bees have been expelling 20-30 bees daily but dying in the snow, since they froze when they hit the -30 F air. This is usual and I wasn't concerned because it suggested the bees were alive and healthy. however, the healthy hive had expelled bees today and the suspected winter kill hive had none. Should this concern me?
Thanks,
Apis M
I wouldn?t worry about a hive buried in snow. I would be mourn a hive without frost at upper entrance and no expelling. They are likely dead imo. However no point in worrying about it. You can mourn over it if you?d like but worrying about a dead hive doesn?t do you much good. There?s always a chance that they may have a small cluster but a small cluster this time of year won?t make it out of March.
Quote from: ApisM on February 03, 2018, 11:38:08 PM
This demarcates that the bees are generating heat.
I would say that it demonstrates that they are breathing and it is cold.
I would recommend to never hit the hive in the winter. It only causes stress. I would also stop cleaning out the entrance. Bees regulate their hive and they know what they want. Your intervention only messes them up. I am just a hobbyist and don't have any experience with your area so it is free advice.
Thanks Bush 84, I can see you have some good experience living where you live. I live North of you and it is a bit colder but very similar at certain periods of the year. I always morn, due to money it costs me. Especially since I am rebuilding after bears decimated my colonies. I am somewhat defeated these days. I haven't even had to worry about mites, since they are not in my region.
Acebird, I think the reason my bees died is because the frost window blocked moisture from escaping. This create a poor environment to live in during prolonged periods of -30 to -40 C. Right now it is -34C. I also hit the colony hive in a last attempt effort to confirm my loss. I have found tampering with the window, helps in survival up here.
Quote from: ApisM on February 04, 2018, 09:57:04 AM
Acebird, I think the reason my bees died is because the frost window blocked moisture from escaping.
Can I assume there is a bottom entrance? My suggestion is to make the bottom entrance a small vent and open up the top entrance large. The amount of air passing through the hive is dependent on the smallest hole between the top and bottom even to the point where the bottom vent doesn't exist during the winter months. Heat tape might solve the icing up even if it is solar powered.
Ya I?m right there with you. I went into winter with 11 and have 3 left. I keep bees in a shed. I tried a new heater this winter and it didn?t work out plus a month of below zero f weather was a killer. I?ll be starting a topic in the coming months about my new bee shed build if you are interested.
Thanks Guys. Ace bird, the bottom entrance get's snowed in and iced up. It doesn't exist in the winter. Maybe this is the problem. Unfortunately, it is hard to rectify since sometimes my hives get completely cover in several feet of snow. I purposely didn't add any heat items to the hive, I hope to breed survival stock so I can have confidence of my hives in the winter. I can't afford to baby hives if I want to expand with confidence.
Ace bird, I am sorry for you losses. That is a big hit. Was it moisture related or disease issues (mites, nosema, etc). What are you assumptions?
I thought about building a shed, keep me posted.
Three were late splits. I was overconfident in my shed but that confidence was misplaced with the new heater and cold temps. Those were easy to accept. The other five were more heartbreaking. Moisture isn?t an issue. Population wasn?t an issue. The other five hives had several inches of dead bees on the bottom board. They were all well populated. They all had left over honey. Also frustrating. I still however think they starved. For some reason I still found some scattered capped brood in these hives. My thought was that they wouldn?t leave brood and couldn?t break cluster for the month long freeze. So they starved with honey a comb over and a box above. I typically see this sort of thing in March. Not sure if my shed had something to do with the brood or the fact that they were Italians.
Either way going forward I am going to do a couple of things. No splits after mid/late July and I will be super anal about my shed temp. I will aim for 40 f +-5. My new shed is actually just a corner of an existing shed. It?s 22x12 feet and already walled off on three sides. Going to build the 22ft wall first and install the door (we are getting new exterior doors for the house this summer so will repurpose the old ones. I will also have to shore up the insulation. There is some in the attic but I suspect none in the walls. I plan on attempting to blow it in the attic and walls. Will install a few outlets and lights. Also will be using a shop heater attached to a thermostat. I have used dryer vents with an in-line fan but may try using a bathroom fan for this space. Light traps are a must. Will have to find a way to setup a timer on the fan. Right now the fan I use is a plug in unit thus can be plugged into a timer. So it will be a huge job. If I don?t finish before next fall life will go on. My current setup isn?t completely shot yet. It?s an old garden shed, but it needs a new roof and paint. I also can?t seem to keep mice out, which is an issue for obvious reasons. Not worth repairing, but would be serviceable for one more winter.
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 04, 2018, 12:09:14 PM
I'll be starting a topic in the coming months about my new bee shed build if you are interested.
Add +1 to that particular audience ...
QuoteLight traps are a must.
?? Can't immediately get my head around how light becomes an issue here - could you expand a little on what role is played by 'light traps' in your scheme ? Ta muchly.
LJ
Quote from: ApisM on February 04, 2018, 11:50:48 AM
Unfortunately, it is hard to rectify since sometimes my hives get completely cover in several feet of snow. Usually that is a blessing. The snow melts about an inch away from the hive and prevents the entrance and vent from icing up. If you are going to bring the hives inside I would talk to Ian Steppler up your way to know what you are up against. He has You tube vids up on the net. He appears to be very successful. He talks about the critical timing of getting them outside when it warms up.
If I were going to attempt your area as a hobbyist I would plan on having at least 4 hives right tight together. Use 3/4 stock boxes (8 frame) separate innercovers and a self made outer cover covering all four hives. Cover the exposed outside with 2" foam and the cover with 3-4" foam. If I ended up with odball numbers like 5 and 6 hives in the fall they would go on top of the stack of four with not much faith in them making it. I would select the healthiest hives for the group of four.
Quote from: little john on February 04, 2018, 01:36:47 PM
Can't immediately get my head around how light becomes an issue here
The building has to have ventilation both for oxygen and to eliminate water vapor. When the interior starts getting above 40 the bees come out and go for the light leave the building and die. It is too cold outside. Getting bees to survive inside is not as easy as it might sound.
Pretty much what acebird said. If a bee sees light it will fly towards it and never return. The shed needs to be 100% black. My light traps are essentially ducts with two 90 degree turns. I won?t run into to many issues as the space in my new shed is already fairly dark. The rest of the shed is also not insulated and thus far from air tight. I was thinking of sucking air in from the main shed and exhausted into the attic. If I use a bathroom fan I don?t think light will be an issue either. Exhaust ducts will still need two 90 degree turns.
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Edit- I forgot to touch on one other thing. I hate to call it a positive as it really isn?t, but my bees don?t heat up my shed. I simply don?t have enough. So I don?t run into cooling issues in the spring like many of the commercial indoor beekeepers. If it?s warm enough outside that my shed is overheating it?s time for them to come out. I believe that is the biggest problem facing indoor wintering. Once you get past that it?s just a matter of having a shed to use, proper insulation, heating, and ventilation.
Wow - I had no idea you guys weren't allowing the bees to exit the shed, and also vent moist air out into the atmosphere. I had assumed - wrongly it would appear - that you would run short pipes from the hive (bottom) entrances through the shed wall to the outside. That's how I would configure a shed setup. Didn't realise there was another approach.
LJ
Ian from beesource has a good YouTube channel that shows his fancy shed. I believe it?s called a Canadian Beekeepers Blog. IMO if I give them access outside it introduces cold into my hives. It also adds an extra level of complexity. They don?t really do anything except for poop between November until March anyways. Ian keeps his bees in his shed from November until March. I put mine in sometime in December depending on the weather. I used to let them out once or twice in the winter to cleanse but always wondered how many never made it back due to being in the shed. After seeing Ian keep his hives in his shed from November until March I decided to try that this year as well.
Ian vents his shed to serve a couple of purposed. Firstly to keep air fresh. Expel carbon dioxide and bring in oxygen. You also get rid of moisture while doing so but I have read a thread indicating that he tries to keep his relative humidity at a certain level. I think that?s because he may have some canola honey in his hives. I don?t have that issue and have never thought twice about how dry it gets here. Ian also uses his vents to keep his shed cool. He packs his shed full of bees. It?s impressive. They do 100% of the heating. He has one vent that runs continuously and one that turns on when it gets above 4c. As I don?t have enough bees to heat my space (hopefully one day) I use mine primarily to keep the air fresh. I will also use a ceiling fan to circulate the air.
@Bush_84 (quoted)
"Ian vents his shed to serve a couple of purposed[sic]. Firstly to keep air fresh.
Expel carbon dioxide and bring in oxygen. You also get rid of moisture while doing
so but I have read a thread indicating that he tries to expel carbon dioxide and
bring in oxygen. You also get rid of moisture while doing so but I have read a
thread indicating that he tries to keep his relative humidity at a certain level. "
Maintaining hive conditions above dewpoint is what bees do - where the
stores consumed go... in converting that energy into a survivable environment.
Relative humidty (rH) within the hive body is between 60% and 40%
depending on colony purpose. Should dewpoint be reached within those
parameters water is then present as condensation. Excess condensation
makes for wet bees, wet bees die.
"I think that's because he may have some canola honey in his hives. I don't have
that issue and have never thought twice about how dry it gets here.
Ian also uses his vents to keep his shed cool."
Having never thought twice on ambient levels of rH you have then wholly
missed the point of Ian's example. Sure, he has a shed however the
conditions only mimic what should be provided for every wintered colony,
within the hive body - or indeed here in the tropics where 90%rH is around
for mostly 60days each year, and > 40%rH for >180days.
70% losses in a single winter could be avoided in studying the model and
applying the principles locally.
Ian approaches his operations using science - and a lot of hard work.
Funnily enough Ian winters in single FD broodchambers AND winters nucleus
colonys, this with just ~20years experience under his belt, a decade or more
of that earning a living at it.
The question then is... what does Ian know that many I read do not, further,
even argue their own anecdotes against methods Ian and many others use?
Part of an answer lies in Ian understanding the organism, that is.. not employing
a management style which follows "beekeeping by numbers".
I am sure were he asked Ian would tell... he reads as that stereotype,
frank-honest-helpful.
Bill
I?m not going to lie I have a hard time deciphering what you are trying to get across. Canola honey turns into a rock and requires water to use. I?ve never dealt with canola honey so I can?t say much more than what I?ve read. My winters here are extremely dry and it?s generally thought to use an upper entrance to keep your hives dry as well. I?ve always questioned that practice, but I?ve always maintained an upper entrance. If nothing else my bees always use that entrance in winter spring. Either way I don?t believe my bees to require extra water in the winter and would rather keep an upper entrance. Bees give off enough water through respiration and what is contained within honey.
I believe that the point of indoor wintering isn?t meant to mimic the environment inside a hive but rather the optimum outside environment. If the argument is that a shed mimics the environment inside the hive then our sheds should be much colder. Instead we keep the sheds at 40 f as that has been determined to be the best temperature to winter bees. There is unfortunately not a textbook with indoor wintering.
I can only know so much before I start doing what I believe is best for my bees. Ive experienced bees starve with honey inches above them, but they can?t get to it due to cold. I?ve witnessed hives freeze in sub zero temps. So I?ve determined that temperature to be the biggest benefit to a shed. I view the rest as necessary as I?m keeping bees indoors.
So no I haven?t given much thought to the rh of my shed. If somebody can give me a reason to believe it?ll improve my wintering then you?ll see me doing whatever I can to increase humidity. Until then if hives that are wintered outside can get through a dry winter with an upper entrance then I?m not sure I?ll stress about it. I am again always looking to improve my situation.
@Bush_84 wrote in part;
"I'm not going to lie I have a hard time deciphering what you are trying to get across. "
errr...fair enough, no point to expanding then, hey?
Take this with you as a simple fact... one has to know first
to recognise another who does know how it works.
Ian knows, I saw this in his earliest postings in a 2017 read
of beesourcedotcom. So... on the topic of environmental controls
- the science - within a hive body...?...I suggest you consult with
him. From your writings you might not "get it" at first pass but
clearly you can dechiper his 'speak'.
"Canola honey turns into a rock and requires water to use."
Beyond the extents of energy spent in consuming stores the solid
state of stores is irrelevent.
Ian's "fancy shed" is designed to optimise those levels of energy,
yet no "fancy shed" is required for the backyard beekeeper to achieve
like levels/extents of energy in each individual colony within a
small(er) apiary.
When it is boiled down Ian's setup is a stable environment minus bees
to control the conditions. Each colony has that job on it's own, which
is as it should be.
Nice to have but not necessary in an economy of scale, despite my own
applause for your efforts to build a wintering shed.
Bill
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 04, 2018, 08:12:00 PM
IMO if I give them access outside it introduces cold into my hives. It also adds an extra level of complexity.
I suppose my thinking had been influenced by reading Preparation for Outdoor Wintering, Phillips, 1918 - in which he describes the packing-case method used at the Bureau of Entomology, which is reported to work well within Zone G. Must stress that the climatic conditions experienced during winter by you guys 'up North' are well out of my own personal experience ...
LJ
ApisM,
I recommend you add a cover over your top entrance to block the light from directly hitting the entrance. If you watch the old skep videos on utube, you will see that they add shields during the winter to help keep the bees from flying when the temperature is too cold for the bees to bee able too fly.
Jim
Quote from: eltalia on February 05, 2018, 01:41:39 AM
When it is boiled down Ian's setup is a stable environment minus bees
to control the conditions. Each colony has that job on it's own, which
is as it should be.
Ian's setup is totally dependent on a large number of hives almost completely filling the size of the room. If he tried to put 10-20 hives in the room the room would be out of control and the bees would die.
You can't compare a hobbyist set up to a full blown commercial set up.
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 04, 2018, 03:29:28 PM
Once you get past that it?s just a matter of having a shed to use, proper insulation, heating, and ventilation.
If there are not enough hives to heat the shed then I suspect the ventilating requirements might be low also. Do you make any attempt to measure the RH in the shed? If you are heating you want to keep the ventilation down to a minimum otherwise you are shoveling sand against the tide.
I?d maybe counter that you are the one who doesn?t get it. I keep bees in the ?north? and indoors in winter and I?m not sure you are demonstrating an understanding of what that means. I have kept bees in a shed without Ian?s YouTube channel for four years and have only discovered what he has to say on the subject this winter. Sure it?s not 20 years of experience but this is the first winter I?ve had losses in my shed, although they were rough losses. So I?ve done alright. I?ve just never understood any of your posts due to your meandering style of writing.
Again I cannot speak of canola from experience but only what I?ve read of it. Ian himself says that bees require water to use canola honey and that they will starve if not given access to water. That is the basis of his desire to increase humidity in his shed, although this topic wasn?t recent.
Where I think we differ is the environment outside vs the environment inside the hive. I am not controlling the temperature inside the cluster but rather reducing the amount of stress and stores consumed inside the cluster. This is done by controlling the temperature outside the hive. Ian heats his shed with the heat given off by over a thousand hives stacked high. I heat my shed electrically. When it gets cold the bees tighten down their cluster and work harder to heat the cluster. This work, I believe, takes a physical toll on the bees as well as consumes honey. More work=more honey consumption. When I kept bees outside my biggest issue was bees starving with honey overhead. Inevitably the weak would freeze in December and the strong would starve in March. As winter wore on a strong hive would dwindle throughout the winter. When March came around we generally get a week of crappy weather. Small cluster plus prolonged cold leads to starvation with honey overhead. I can avoid both of these issues by controlling the temperature of the environment outside the cluster. It has been shown that 35-45 f is the best temperature for bees. Warmer than that and they break cluster. Colder than that and they consume more honey/work harder.
I would say most people shouldn?t keep bees indoors in winter. I?ve read a lot of topics from people south of me who are thinking about it, but is totally unnecessary. I would say that in my area you cannot achieve the same outcome without a shed. Sure the bees can still maintain their cluster, but at what cost when it?s -30 f with a windchill of -60 f?
Quote from: eltalia on February 05, 2018, 01:41:39 AM
@Bush_84 wrote in part;
"I'm not going to lie I have a hard time deciphering what you are trying to get across. "
errr...fair enough, no point to expanding then, hey?
Take this with you as a simple fact... one has to know first
to recognise another who does know how it works.
Ian knows, I saw this in his earliest postings in a 2017 read
of beesourcedotcom. So... on the topic of environmental controls
- the science - within a hive body...?...I suggest you consult with
him. From your writings you might not "get it" at first pass but
clearly you can dechiper his 'speak'.
"Canola honey turns into a rock and requires water to use."
Beyond the extents of energy spent in consuming stores the solid
state of stores is irrelevent.
Ian's "fancy shed" is designed to optimise those levels of energy,
yet no "fancy shed" is required for the backyard beekeeper to achieve
like levels/extents of energy in each individual colony within a
small(er) apiary.
When it is boiled down Ian's setup is a stable environment minus bees
to control the conditions. Each colony has that job on it's own, which
is as it should be.
Nice to have but not necessary in an economy of scale, despite my own
applause for your efforts to build a wintering shed.
Bill
In its current state no. I am planning on doing so in my new setup. I run my fan three times a day. I could probably get away with doing so less, but I?ve done ok at this rate. I also don?t have any measurement to tell me to increase or decrease ventilation. Rh would be one way. Getting a carbon dioxide monitor would be another. They would both require me being present in the shed to read I believe. Right now I can monitor my sheds temp from inside my house.
Quote from: Acebird on February 05, 2018, 09:24:27 AM
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 04, 2018, 03:29:28 PM
Once you get past that it?s just a matter of having a shed to use, proper insulation, heating, and ventilation.
If there are not enough hives to heat the shed then I suspect the ventilating requirements might be low also. Do you make any attempt to measure the RH in the shed? If you are heating you want to keep the ventilation down to a minimum otherwise you are shoveling sand against the tide.
Quote from: Acebird on February 05, 2018, 09:24:27 AM
Do you make any attempt to measure the RH in the shed?
Bush never mind Bill. He makes a good sermon to sleep through. I asked about RH because I was wondering if your bathroom fan idea will freeze up.
When it's -30 F outside the snow is 32 F. It is very good insulation. As long as the bees can fly (top entrance) on a warm day, I would leave the snow. Mine would winter a lot better if we ever got an accumulation of snow, but that seldom happens here. So we have to put up with the -30 with no insulation...
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 05, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
They would both require me being present in the shed to read I believe.
If you maintain 40 degrees you can buy a small de-humidifier from a box store or on-line. It would add a small amount of heat. You would have to decide how you would deal with disposing of the water. I would suggest a pump like a fountain pump triggered by a float. You could monitor the exit tube for icing up. If you were to connect a hose to the de-humidifier it would surely ice up.
Constant ventilation would be far better then cycling a fan. Maybe Ian has done some measuring of CO2 to determine his ventilation requirements per hive. This might give you some incite on sizing constant ventilation. It would be great if it didn't need to be powered. Since CO2 is heavier then oxygen the hives should be off the floor and the vent near the floor to exhaust the CO2 without power.
It?s so incredibly dry here in the winter that I don?t believe I need to stress about things being to wet. I run upper entrances and mountain camp before winter. Wet has never been an issue for me, which is why I don?t give it much thought. While I have never measured it I have never seen any evidence that my hives are wet. So I mostly ventilate for air exchange and releasing moist air is simply a byproduct. A heater also adds to the dry environment. As far as fans my current setup has never seized up on me. I?m not sure if I?d run into problems with a bathroom fan or not. I can certainly check the rh in my current shed and report back, however will take me a few days.
Air circulation is also a requirement. In my new shed I will install a ceiling fan. I believe Ian has multiple. This resolves the settling issue. I also have my current air intake high and my vent that passively lets air out is low. Will probably do something similar. It should also be mentioned that Ian ventilates his shed for a different purpose. His primary objective is cooling. His primary exhaust fan runs constantly and the secondary runs when temp gets above 4c. If his fans did not do this his shed would overheat. Therefore his primary driver for ventilation is temperature control not air exchange while I ventilate for air exchange while trying to minimize heat loss. Now I will say that I don?t work for him nor speak for him. So I cant say what he is exactly thinking, but according to his various videos this is what he has indicated.
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 05, 2018, 12:52:29 PM
It?s so incredibly dry here in the winter that I don?t believe I need to stress about things being to wet.
Almost everywhere it is cold it will be dry outside. The issue, if there is one, is the moisture coming from the bees breath. Whether there is a moisture issue or not will depend on how many hives are kept in what volume of shed and how tight the shed is. That is the same for the CO2 issue. I read some where that a bee hive will expel 5 gal of water over the winter. Ten hives is almost a barrel. It is real easy to add heat and exhaust moisture with ventilation. The only question is cost. If the cost is acceptable then that is the route to go.
@Bush_84 sayed;
" I would say that in my area you cannot achieve the same outcome without a shed. "
Not so, at all.
I have recently addressed some part of the equation in this thread:
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50924.msg448118#msg448118
Given your difficulty in reading my work here again is the basics
of the science those who know rely on:
https://www.thermaxxjackets.com/insulation-ratings-r-factor-k-factor-c-factor/
"Sure the bees can still maintain their cluster, but at what cost when it?s -30 f with a
windchill of -60 f? "
I had to check those stats for your local, turns out your conditions are
far 'better' than what some have to deal with in winter, notably those
throughout much of Britain.
Again, I addressed clustering earlier also;
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50909.msg447960#msg447960
Ignoring rH, or rather, not understanding the impact internally and externally
to a colony is exactly where I would offer 99.5% of topical matter
in forums I read goes awry. Kensington MN is around a mean of 75% rH.
Combined with better than 12mph winds that factor alone should present a
significant problem, for a shed or any box.
The OP by @Apism talks about snow banks which would assist with the above
_if_ the other factors contributing to colony survival are met.
No shed is required, which is what this thread seems to be now implying.
Also, to assist you focus... it can be said there is at least one vacuous/juvenile
b'keep posting to this thread. It is not 'safe' to assume more than that
number exist.
Bill
@Acebird tweeted;
"You can't compare a hobbyist set up to a full blown commercial set up."
When it is boiled down Ian's setup is a stable environment minus bees
to control the conditions. Each colony has that job on it's own, which
is as it should be.
FYI.
The building envelope is defined as the physical separator between the
interior and exterior of a building... or a box, and includes all controlled
air paths.
Help yourself to a true "sermon".
https://www.proctorgroup.com/heat-air-moisture-movement-managing-the-balance
Bill
This conversation has definitely evolved from the original as is often the case on forums. I still believe a lot of the difference comes from you not understanding what is going on here and your posts at time contradicting itself. In your first link your post states that bees fail to heat their surrounding, which I agree with. Then you finish by saying people shouldn?t allow heat to escape the hive walls. So it?s not important but it?s important. I do believe that keeping the wind out is a must but what is the point of insulating a hive if you keep an upper and lower entrance? Also if moisture is a concern then you must keep an upper entrance.
I understand insulation. I also have an education based in science. So this isn?t over my head. I read that article and it?s basic stuff. If you understand this then you will understand why I choose to keep bees in a shed. Look at some of the data/articles from capabees.org. The beaver lodge research farm has done some interesting work on the subject. Their data indicates that bees start to cluster at 18c/64f. Cluster will continue to shrink until -10c/+14f is reached. If you really looked into my temperatures you?d see that my bees would be clustered as tight as can be for most of my winter with some nice days in between. After that -10c/+14f mark bees have to generate heat from within their cluster,which is a physical drain on a bee and it slaps their resources. I?ll ask directly can you agree with this?
As far as my winters being better than that in the UK I?ll have to see some data to back that up. Hate to be that guy but I won?t believe it unless I can see it. The easiest way I have to compare is to compare plant hardiness zones (and I understand this is not a great way to compare but again it?s the easiest way I know how to compare) and they don?t look close. I?ve lived in 3a/4b for most of my life and it seems that the worst the uk gets is 7, which is similar to living in the south here in the us. Is there maybe a different measurement than temperature that you judge winters?
Back to rh I?ll give you my current data according to the internet not measured by myself. Humidity 61% and dew point -4 f. Assuming my dew point stays that low, which I?d have to research to determine, apparently I will never have condensation. That doesn?t really show me what?s going on inside the hive however. I will have to read through that article from proctorgroup. I don?t have the time now (at work and slow day but not slow enough to process that). Let me ask another direct question as I?ve already said I want to learn as much as I can about bees...what would you have me do about rh? Knowing that I strive to keep my hives at 40 f, what rh should I strive to keep my shed at?
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 05, 2018, 05:17:56 PM
Knowing that I strive to keep my hives at 40 f, what rh should I strive to keep my shed at?
I think Ian tries to keep his space below 50%. I don't think drier hurts the bees but if you are ventilating to get it lower you are wasting heat.
QuoteAfter that -10c/+14f mark bees have to generate heat from within their cluster,which is a physical drain on a bee and it slaps their resources. I?ll ask directly can you agree with this?
I have to disagree with this. The center of the cluster is kept around 90 degrees so bees are generating heat even in the summer time. It is true they generate a lot more in the winter but honey can be converted into a lot of btu's. The issue is how much can they consume before they have to dump? I think the only way that bees can survive a long cold winter is by replacing the dead. This is the reason they are maintaining such high cluster temperatures.
In most cases bees don't heat the hive. That is not their intention. However when you pack them so close together the heat they do produce will heat the hive. If you take it a step further and pack a large number of colonies close together they will overheat the hive. As I said before the devil is in the details.
http://www.capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf
That is the source of what I posted. I was also surprised that their numbers were as high as they were. I interpret the -10/+14 as ramping up their heat production. If they can no longer tighten their cluster then they adapt to the colder temps by increasing heat production.
I also agree that the devil is in the details. My details are not the same as Ian?s and his are not the same as the op. Hell my details will likely change as I expand my apiary.
Edit-I found the topic on bee source that was discussing rh in Ian?s shed. In it he determined that he needed to in fact add water to his shed to maintain his rh above 40%. Again not sure if he still does this or not.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-291547.html
Mr Bush, hope warm weather blows your way. You mentioned relative humidity (rh) and temperatures, so I calculated some condensation points for you. I hope this is useful to you.
Temperature 40F: your shed/building temp.
rh. 90 percent. Condensation occurs at 37F
rh. 80 percent. Condensation occurs at 34F
rh. 70 percent. ?. ?. ?. ?. ?. 31F. FROST appears
Changing subject, 2/6/18, tomorrow night, N. Arkansas is predicted to have an ice storm. Wonderful, just wonderful. :). Oh well, gotta luv the challenge of bee keeping.
Blessings
>Mr Bush, hope warm weather blows your way.
It was 0 F this morning...
@Bush_84 in belief wrote;
"I still believe a lot of the difference comes from you not understanding what is
going on here and your posts at time contradicting itself"
hmmmm... you're just not working very hard at encouragng me to see my efforts are
worthwhile, hey.
Having already acknowledged my writing style does not suit _all_ reads of the work I
am not going to ask - or chase down - what it is in need of repeating that which has
already been put. Like the old adage says, "if you have to explain the 'splain' it aint
never going to fly.
As example only. For the specific instance you rely on I quote context.
_____________
"So.. regardless of where in the NH temperate climes a b'keeps job is to
keep the heat in, not keep the "cold" out. The tired old line "bees
clustering stay warm" is pure nonsense as the reality is bees cluster in
an attempt - often vain - to extend their heat into the envionment, the
cell body and wood. An organism trying to be a spaceheater. As many
have found - and will find - many such colonys fail in engineering their
environment.
Were the beekeeper to use a product and/or construction which retained
the heat within the hive body - that is, not allow heat to leak from the walls
etc - 99% of wintering hazards would be eliminated.
One path, starting point, is use of poly hive bodies."
_______________
Mulling over a simpler communication for those two paragraphs I can only come up
with -- forcing onto the bees a shrinkage in clustering over the alternative to
providing wintering infrastructure simply guarantees those not able to - or not
allowed (by bees) - to reach into that core zone will die.
There is no contradiction in that information.
Anecdotal evidence of deadouts does put credence to the above - whether they be
starved or 'frozen' bees. Michael Bush advocates overcoming some of the risk in
allowing deeper (thicker) clusters. So, effectively, Michael too acknowledges deep
clustering as a wintering method. Science wise, an error... beekeeping wise,
unproductive for many.
________________
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50909.msg447970#msg447970
While the difference is not large, I find that bees winter better in 8 frames than 10
_________________
Were b'keeps in like conditions to provide the environmental envelope which allowed
bees to cluster, without shrinking the extents(face) in survival, not only would less
stores be required going into winter but the endurance of the wintering bee would not
be maxed out, providing vibrant bees for that Spring buildup.
Bill
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 05, 2018, 06:02:38 PM
In it he determined that he needed to in fact add water to his shed to maintain his rh above 40%.
Temperature and humidity are tough to control by venting. If you try to control one thing you effect the other. In order to control both you need a system for both.
Quote from: Acebird on February 06, 2018, 09:36:06 AM
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 05, 2018, 06:02:38 PM
In it he determined that he needed to in fact add water to his shed to maintain his rh above 40%.
Temperature and humidity are tough to control by venting. If you try to control one thing you effect the other. In order to control both you need a system for both.
Ya I?m not going to claim that I know what needs to be done in relation to rh. I still deem that in my situation I have not had any issues with moisture high or low. So I may start monitoring it (as I do have a setup with the ability) but I will continue to not worry about it. I have never seen any evidence of condensation in my hives and have not seen sufficient evidence that a low rh is detrimental in my local.
Have you determined what killed 11 of your hives? I wonder if there is such a thing as dying of thirst for a bee hive?
Quote from: Acebird on February 06, 2018, 01:44:23 PM
Have you determined what killed 11 of your hives? I wonder if there is such a thing as dying of thirst for a bee hive?
I put 11 in and have lost 8. These were my first losses in my shed. Three were late splits and didn?t have time to build up a big enough cluster. Lesson learned. The other five were a combination of unfortunate events. They all had big clusters and honey left. I tried a different heater this winter thinking it was safer but wasn?t strong enough. We had a long string of cold day and my shed got cold and I didn?t act fast enough. These hives seemed to have some brood and starved with honey overhead. To many days in a row without a warm up and they couldnt reorganize their stores back to the cluster. So another lesson learned.
Well keep on plugging away. The more you learn the better you become at it. Giving up is a sure sign of failure.
Quote from: Acebird on February 06, 2018, 01:44:23 PM
These hives seemed to have some brood and starved with honey overhead. To many days in a row without a
warm up and they couldnt reorganize their stores back to the cluster. So another lesson learned.
It has to be just me attempting to parse the above buuut are you saying
you believe your bees move stores to the cluster?
Bill
Only if the temp allows them to break cluster. Otherwise I believe a cluster will rearrange stores when they are allowed to expand their cluster as temps increase. If a cluster can shrink five fold then they can certainly cover a much larger area when allowed to expand thus reaching honey stores once inaccessible. I would imagine during that time some reorganization is done.
Edit-it should be specifically mentioned that this was all in relation to a winter cluster with brood.
Quote from: eltalia on February 06, 2018, 10:43:48 PM
Quote from: Acebird on February 06, 2018, 01:44:23 PM
These hives seemed to have some brood and starved with honey overhead. To many days in a row without a
warm up and they couldnt reorganize their stores back to the cluster. So another lesson learned.
It has to be just me attempting to parse the above buuut are you saying
you believe your bees move stores to the cluster?
Bill
"Edit-it should be specifically mentioned that this was all in relation to a winter cluster with brood."
Okay @Bush_84.. I'll leave this for someone else to help out with as you
have just lost me, like away from my field of experience, entirely.
In dearth conditions here - which is what winter and the Wet Season are
around Aussie - queens are slow to lay, if at all. During foreseen extended
Wet Seasons I have been known to cage queens in preserving the critical
mass for the colony, brood being an unecessary burden.
But that is personal choice - my management style - so it is not my
place to comment on brood raising in a dearth where someone is doing so
for their reasons.
Bill
Quote from: eltalia on February 07, 2018, 11:12:00 AM
so it is not my
place to comment on brood raising in a dearth where someone is doing so
for their reasons.
Bill
Bill, normally they would shut down for a dearth but winter is different. They have to brood up in late winter to have a population strong enough to catch the spring flow. This is also their best chance to swarm and survive through the next winter.
Quote from: Acebird on February 07, 2018, 12:38:17 PM
Bill, normally they would shut down for a dearth but winter is different. They have to brood up in
late winter to have a population strong enough to catch the spring flow. This is also their best
chance to swarm and survive through the next winter.
Brian, my comments, all of them, are about entry and duration... not exit.
Call the period/condition whatever, "dearth" or "winter" or jes' plain ol' ..
"no new protein coming in"...the raising of brood (then) is an unecessary risk, in
my view.
Exiting the condition is another matter as invaribly there will be fair days, excellent
days and then a bad day. Those times are truly local... right down
to one valley over another at elevation, and so as I posted I would defer the
judgement to the b'keep running tne yard.
Also - as previously said - the difficulty I found in unravelling what was
being put lay in not being able to determine just when in time @Bush_84
was raising brood.
Bill
Quote from: eltalia on February 07, 2018, 05:32:28 PM
Brian, my comments, all of them, are about entry and duration... not exit.
Yes going into winter here a hive will usually shut off brood rearing completely but not always. I can't explain the difference. It might be that a hive under mite pressure may have to continue to raise brood a bit longer to maintain critical mass. But that is just a guess.
See my relevant post about winter cluster temps:
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50946.0
Why not, Ace? What is the difference between a small hobbyist and a commercial set up?
Quote from: beepro on February 11, 2018, 09:52:59 PM
Why not, Ace? What is the difference between a small hobbyist and a commercial set up?
One could say " one farms whilst the other yarns" .... buuut I won't, say.
As Brian is referring to Ian Steppler's setup it may be more helpful
for you to go cruise their site, take it in?
http://www.stepplerfarms.com/Aboutus.html
Bill
Different world down here in FL. When I left NY my hives were covered in snow. A solid 82 degrees and sun down here. I think my bees would die of heat stress. down here.
Brian,
Where in Florida are you.
Jim
Quote from: Acebird on February 14, 2018, 02:45:53 PM
Different world down here in FL. When I left NY my hives were covered in snow.
A solid 82 degrees and sun down here. I think my bees would die of heat stress. down here.
Whilst polar opposites in ambient conditions there are
commonalities which could assist colonies in either location to
survive.
I am putting together a "dissertation" from knowledge gathered
over time and recent pertinent information from Tom Seeley,
Ken Warchol and others. Hopefully the work will offer choices
in wintering whether within a shed or the yard.
Currently, after a period of soaking/flushing rain, we are now experiencing
unusualy high temps for Feburary. No dramas as yet for my Lang stacks
as those are well ventilated. Yet what is very noticable is the new
polystyrene housed colonies are doing no fanning beyond pheromone
waving during orientation flights whereas the Langs hold the usual
numbers at the entrance (full width) all employed fanning. Neither have any
bearding happening. Temp is ranging from 29C @8:00AM to 37C @1:00PM.
Humidity runs from 42% to 65% at dusk.
These conditions at this time - immediately after rain - are most stressfull
for bees trying to recover from a brood break. Beek's to theSouth of me are
reporting similar stresses allbeit cooler afternoon temperatures and higher
humidity levels.
Bill
Quote from: sawdstmakr on February 14, 2018, 04:48:52 PM
Brian,
Where in Florida are you.
Jim
West Palm Beach Jim.
Quote from: eltalia on February 14, 2018, 07:04:22 PM
Yet what is very noticable is the new
polystyrene housed colonies are doing no fanning beyond pheromone
waving during orientation flights whereas the Langs hold the usual
numbers at the entrance (full width) all employed fanning.
Insulation slows down the transfer of heat no matter what directions it moves.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 05, 2018, 11:12:33 AM
When it's -30 F outside the snow is 32 F. It is very good insulation. As long as the bees can fly (top entrance) on a warm day, I would leave the snow. Mine would winter a lot better if we ever got an accumulation of snow, but that seldom happens here. So we have to put up with the -30 with no insulation...
This is incorrect, totally inaccurate. Snow is good insulation if the snow is not packed and has air pockets. If the air temp is -32 the surface snow will be -32.
MB, I think you meant -32, you accidentally left off the minus sign.
Blessings
Van
I think you have it half wrong. The outside surface of the snow might be minus but the inside by the hive would be 32 degrees I think. An igloo with one person in side at minus 40 degrees with a howling wind will be about 19 degrees and can be as high as 60 degrees. Doesn't have to trap much heat to make a differrence and bees put off a little.
Cheers
gww
We used to get deep snows in PA when I was a kid. I built snow caves in the drifts. Once inside it was amazingly warm inside with just me in it. The inside was much higher than 32 degrees. Igloos work great until the snow melts and then turns to ice. Ice boxes work in reverse of a snow cave. I suspect the water freezes when the residents go out to work.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on February 14, 2018, 11:47:10 PM
We used to get deep snows in PA when I was a kid. I built snow caves in the drifts. Once inside it was amazingly warm inside with just me in it. The inside was much higher than 32 degrees. Igloos work great until the snow melts and then turns to ice. Ice boxes work in reverse of a snow cave. I suspect the water freezes when the residents go out to work.
Jim
Yet folks die inside their snowbound vehicle. Asphixiate (sp) or freeze?..dunno.
But I reckon you have nailed why Eskimos don't smoke, Jim.. do they?
Currently 38Celcius and 59%rH ...on the verandah!! That's a huge "porch" or
"stoop" for some folk.
Bill
"Yet folks die inside their snowbound vehicle. Asphyxiate or freeze?..dunno."
Most of the time they Asphyxiate from running the engine and not keeping the tail pipe area cleared. That was something my dad stressed many times. That and only running the engine long enough to warm up the cab.
Jim
Igloos are built with a small vent hole in the top. One can burn a small fire of fat or peat and get the inside temps rather balmy, as compared to outdoors in the weather.
We provide our hives with ventilation. As the bees regulate the temperatures of the brood, the inside temps of the hive naturally increase as compared to the outside temps, as well.
Soooo... the thread has determined (so far) the stores laden wintered colony
to survive requires insulation+air change+ventilation.
Missing is the hygine question of "where doth the poo go", or does
such biowaste accumulate in quantities sufficient to bee a problem?
The worst is over methinks, light cirrus in the sky and a breeze is
present on the verandah... where it is a pleasant 35celcius and 51% rH.
No bees fanning anywhere.
Bill
They hold it from December until March.
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 16, 2018, 07:09:20 AM
They hold it from December until March.
Unless it warms up and they can fly. You can see what a problem it would be if there are 500 hives indoors and this happens.
Quote from: Acebird on February 16, 2018, 09:06:18 AM
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 16, 2018, 07:09:20 AM
They hold it from December until March.
Unless it warms up and they can fly. You can see what a problem it would be if there are 500 hives indoors and this happens.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XdPRS0AuuxU
First cleansing flight in 4-5 months at Ian?s operation. I certainly wouldn?t bother them for a couple of days.
Don't park your white car within a mile of that apriary or any color for that matter.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on February 16, 2018, 01:18:00 PM
Don't park your white car within a mile of that apriary or any color for that matter.
Jim
I was aware the bees backed up, I wasn't aware they did so for months at a time.
I have seen firsthand what even a 10K strong colony does to the roof of a sedan
after just two days, when released.
There has to be some metabolic process for the ability as the stores consumed
would provide a component of energy (sugars released) and another of biomass,
surely. So somehow that component is stored in tbe gut without creating bellyache.
Bee colic... ;-)
Bill
Bees don't hibernate but their metabolic rate slows way down when it gets below 40 degrees which is why they don't normally consume much honey in winter.
Many an insect has a period of dormancy, some for years. The limits of my knowledge say
such often includes a metamorphos (sp) stage, bees do not. Instead be it a week or months
they backup their biowaste - according to the thread. I have no doubt the "cleansing flight"
thing is popular explanation for masses of bee flights on the first days of thaw yet my
curiosity begs asking has anyone ever taken note of bottomboards in the days prior, a time
beefore the housekeepers have got busy "taking out the winter potty", and so cleaning
the bottomboard to the standards we get to see it on inspecting the broodchamber post
that first flight?
Bill
In my experience I generally clean out the bottom board and not my bees. They?d probably get it done as they gained strength but there?s just to many dead bees to get it done quickly.
I see very little poop on the bottom board which I will call the tray under a SBB. I have access to this tray 12 months out of the year because of the design of my SBB.
Quote from: Acebird on February 16, 2018, 09:04:11 PM
I see very little poop on the bottom board which I will call the tray under a SBB. I have access to this tray
12 months out of the year because of the design of my SBB.
What about the screen itself... bee waste would stick to that like gum to a thong!
Bill
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 16, 2018, 08:55:31 PM
In my experience I generally clean out the bottom board and not my bees. They?d probably get it done as they gained strength but there?s just to many dead bees to get it done quickly.
Sooo.. the bees are "busting to go" and so walk over their dead buddies to go
dump Mr. Hanky?
Bill
Quote from: eltalia on February 16, 2018, 11:15:06 PM
What about the screen itself... bee waste would stick to that like gum to a thong!
Bill
At the point of expulsion it is more liquid then solid so what little would stay on the #8 screen there would be much more on the tray. And there isn't.
Quote from: eltalia on February 16, 2018, 11:18:24 PM
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 16, 2018, 08:55:31 PM
In my experience I generally clean out the bottom board and not my bees. They?d probably get it done as they gained strength but there?s just to many dead bees to get it done quickly.
Sooo.. the bees are "busting to go" and so walk over their dead buddies to go
dump Mr. Hanky?
Bill
They use their upper entrance until their population starts to rise.
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 17, 2018, 10:48:46 AM
Quote from: eltalia on February 16, 2018, 11:18:24 PM
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 16, 2018, 08:55:31 PM
In my experience I generally clean out the bottom board and not my bees.
They?d probably get it done as they gained strength but there?s just to many dead
bees to get it done quickly.
Sooo.. the bees are "busting to go" and so walk over their dead buddies to go
dump Mr. Hanky?
Bill
They use their upper entrance until their population starts to rise.
Sooo. now we have top entrances being thrown into the mix?
I assume these are additional...like, not only?
I know Ian Steppler only uses a standard entrance.. there are others
doing likewise?
Bill
I can?t say all use upper entrance but I can say many in the north use an upper and lower entrance. Lower entrance is the main and largest entrance. Upper entrance allow moisture to escape in winter. In spring bees are in the upper box and seem to mostly use that entrance due to proximity. As the hive expands that switches.
Quote from: eltalia on February 17, 2018, 04:08:41 PM
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 17, 2018, 10:48:46 AM
Quote from: eltalia on February 16, 2018, 11:18:24 PM
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 16, 2018, 08:55:31 PM
In my experience I generally clean out the bottom board and not my bees.
They?d probably get it done as they gained strength but there?s just to many dead
bees to get it done quickly.
Sooo.. the bees are "busting to go" and so walk over their dead buddies to go
dump Mr. Hanky?
Bill
They use their upper entrance until their population starts to rise.
Sooo. now we have top entrances being thrown into the mix?
I assume these are additional...like, not only?
I know Ian Steppler only uses a standard entrance.. there are others
doing likewise?
Bill
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 17, 2018, 06:05:58 PM
I can?t say all use upper entrance but I can say many in the north use an upper and
lower entrance. Lower entrance is the main and largest entrance. Upper entrance
allow moisture to escape in winter. In spring bees are in the upper box and seem to
mostly use that entrance due to proximity. As the hive expands that switches.
Quote from: eltalia on February 17, 2018, 04:08:41 PM
(edit)
Sooo. now we have top entrances being thrown into the mix?
I assume these are additional...like, not only?
I know Ian Steppler only uses a standard entrance.. there are others
doing likewise?
Bill
"Upper entrance allow moisture to escape in winter"
There is the condition I was looking to hear... sooo now we have (so far) the
stores laden wintered colony to survive requires insulation+air change+
ventilation+humidty control... ergo "enthalpy management" for a living organism.
Getting back to "cleansing flights" it intrigues me these are observations loaded
with assumption, the main of which is we assume bees replicate Man in that
having been confined for a time the very first movement is to take a dump.
That is Man thinking, and built on the presence of many bees flying and the
obvious presence of bee feaces in the immediate area.
However.
Knowing that bees reorintate after just two days locked up and knowing
the majority - if not indeed all in a efficently managed winter colony - are
flight enabled is it worth the thought bees are merely resetting the GPS, given
it takes seconds to vent tbe biowaste yet these first flights are maintained far
longer, in fact at least as long as newly progressed forager bees running their
first orientation flight during seasonal growth?
Emerging wintered bees are all "of age" so somehow they have to restructure
themselves into the castes required for the colony to "boot up"
after an extreme dearth. Bees will still be hairy so there are pollen collectors,
others will sort themselves into nursing, housekeeping,couriers, and
guards/foragers.
Is this "cleansing flight" actually "bee thinking" in determining whom of the
mob are still capable of the prime task at hand, gathering stores?
Bill
Bees reorient when they plan on flying miles away from their hive. If you knock a hive over in the middle of the night do they reorient? I think not.
Quote from: Acebird on February 18, 2018, 08:24:45 PM
Bees reorient when they plan on flying miles away from their hive. If you knock a hive over in the middle of the night do they reorient? I think not.
You do not subscribe to the concept bees may well suffer tempoary memory loss
in confinement nor the fact tbe sun moves it's azimuth every day, Brian?
Bill
I think that it all applies: the bees come out when it's warm enough to :
- void waste
- reorient to the hive (or orient for the first times for bees born late in the fall just before or after the cluster forms) due to long enclosure and seasonal change in position of the sun
- possibly to collect water and keep an antennae out for any possible early appearance of nectar/pollen
probably in roughly that order... as well as other secret bee business that we haven't sussed out yet...!
Of my two hives, the larger is still using the lower entrance when they come out on warm days, while the younger/slightly smaller hive is using the upper entrance (small ventilation hole as described by Bush84, about 1/4 inch by 3/4 inch). Both consist of 2 mediums and both weigh about 84 lbs currently, so have similar stores available, but one would appear to be higher in the hive - or for some reason just like the upper exit?
"as well as other secret bee business that we haven't sussed out yet...!"
Thinking (only) perhaps one of those secrets is a mandatory
"Beep Test"... pass and you get to fly/forage. Fail and
you get laterine duty or "wet nurse" if you're young enough.
Of course the older (disabled) grizzlys get guard duty... heh heh.
Oh..!? "beep test"? For the uninitiated... a series of distance loops
run over set times to a stopwatch. The pass/fail rates are guaged
against "fitness for duty" and scaled for age and rank.
Used by the military and some law enforcement agencies.
Bill
"Oh..!? "beep test"? For the uninitiated... a series of distance loops
run over set times to a stopwatch. The pass/fail rates are guaged
against "fitness for duty" and scaled for age and rank.
Used by the military and some law enforcement agencies.
Bill"
Bill,
Please, don't remind me. 😖
:grin:
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on February 19, 2018, 07:40:41 AM
"Oh..!? "beep test"? For the uninitiated... a series of distance loops
run over set times to a stopwatch. The pass/fail rates are guaged
against "fitness for duty" and scaled for age and rank.
Used by the military and some law enforcement agencies.
Bill"
Bill,
Please, don't remind me. 😖
:grin:
Jim
heh heh... I am reminded every step I take.. or try to :grin:
Following on the many hours spent on my knees as a child
I reckon leaping from heights carting full kit did my young
knees a lot of good, not.
Buuuut I am told it is a disease behind my woes, not "fair
wear and tear".... bummer.
Bill