Hello all. Just an FYI this will be a long term project. I?ll update as I get time to work on it. I have been thinking about this and planning this for a few months now. My existing bee shed is an old garden shed that is past its prime. The roof needs to be replaced. It also doesn?t have electricity. So I?ve been running an extension cord to it, which has always made me nervous. It?s heated with a space heater set to 40f. It?s ventilated by a vent that has an in-line fan and that is set to a timer.
My new build is in one of my out buildings that used to be an old hog barn. There?s a space in the back corner that is already enclosed on three sides. The wall on the back and the wall on the right are exterior walls. They are insulated with that beaded polystyrene. They have over 3? if the stuff. The wall on the left is an interior wall that is insulated with fiberglass. My workshop is on the other side of that wall.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mEESAfwrFbQsbWKB3
How it looked when I got started.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XejhKI3u570FJiiu2
All cleaned up. I found out that our barn cats were using the back corner as a litter box. So that was a fun surprise. Also I realized that I had an issue with those cut off posts. It is next to the far base plate. You can see it sticking out of the floor by an inch or more. I tried just butting the base plate against it but then my wall covers up the window, which is just a translucent piece of siding. I?ll fill that in with insulation in the winter. Have to keep it dark and warm. So I had to shave that down level against the cement. Once that was done the baseplate sat on it nicely and the wall no longer covers up the window weird.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GZz8k4QhVM9VuXaE3
That?s as far as I got today. Tomorrow I hope to fill in the far wall with 2x4s. And figure out the door framing. We plan on replacing our exterior doors to our house this year. I?ll just reuse one of those. The one I plan on using is 36?. Both unfortunately have windows so I will have to cover that up with a sheet of extruded poly or something. We also have a ceiling fan that we had planned on installing in our house and my wife changed her mind. So I will use that for air circulation.
https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/electric-heat/electric-industrial-heaters/profusion-reg-heat-garage-heater-5-000w/eh-4604/p-1444432293873-c-6328.htm?tid=8733420738056255587&ipos=6
I have one of these in my workshop. I?m about out of honey money. So I?ll probabky just move that over for now as a heat source. I may also buy a thermostat for tighter control over temp. I?ve talked to people who suggest using a vented propane heater as they are cheaper to use. They are more expensive up front. I?m hoping that my bees help somewhat and keeping the temp set to 40 will make it more reasonable to heat.
Still haven?t decided on ventilation. I could simply just take my current ventilation setup and move it over to my new setup. I?ve also read about people using a bathroom fan. So I don?t know. I?ve got time to figure that out. I?ve got to finish the wall, install heater, install ceiling fan, insulated attic, and run some electric before I worry about that. I?m also trying to figure out a way to vent this space without cutting into the siding. I?m thinking that I?ll put the intake on the ceiling going into the attic on one end and the exhaust near the floor going into the main shed space on the other end.
I?ll keep this updated as I go. Initial thoughts?
I still think that you could find out from Ian how many hives per volume it would take for the bees to heat the space for 90% of the heat load. Then you would only have to make up 10% on the coldest days. You would have a better idea of how many hives you need and what space to build. What is wrong with starting small?
A timer is the worst method of control. Spend the money on a thermostat and maybe a humidistat so you have control. Light bulbs can be used for heat because you are not going to heat the space above the temperature that the bees will break cluster and fly. Maybe Ian has some numbers on air changes for CO2 requirements.
Ultimately I would love to have enoug bees to heat that space. Maybe long term. I just don?t have the funds to have kind of hive count right now. I want to continue to work on increase until I get there. In the meantime I have been been thinking about splitting the space in half. It already enclose on three sides and it was the perfect spot to do this. So either way I am exposing this space, but there?s nothing saying I can?t reduce it down to conserve heat. I would likely just build another wall splitting the space in half so my bees would overwinter in an approximately 12x12 space. I may yet contact Ian about this to get some pointers. For now I?m just going to focus on the basics and hammer out the specifics later. I can easily build the wall, insulate the wall, run electric (lights, outlets, switches), install fan, install heater without worrying to much about the fine points about ventilation and regulation of such or even how big I want to make the final space.
So how many hives do you intend on housing? It might be worth your while to make the fourth wall an inch smaller in length and height so you could move if for expansion. Just pack the gap with insulation. If you run power in the wall run it to a box with an air conditioner cord so you can plug it in when you move it.
Unfortunately I am currently down to three hives. I purchased three Nucs for the spring. I am hoping to possibly take a nuc off of each hive and get to 12 hives if at all possible. I would like to keep expanding until I start to feel like keeping bees is work. I?d also like to keep a 2:1 nuc to production hive ratio. I find managing Nucs to be a lot more fun than production hives. At this time harvesting honey is a pain and selling Nucs would be more enjoyable. Even if I were to expand to 20 hives I think that 12x12 ft space would still be adequate. Building the dividing wall a smidge short isn?t a bad idea.
I likely wouldn?t run electric in the dividing wall. If I did divide the space in half I?d probably run two outlets in each space on opposing walls. The fan would likely be just directly wired. No need for a switch. A light on each side with a switch for each by the door.
LOL, I don't think you would have a problem fitting 20 hives in a 4 x12 space. I would make the wall a tad short also because you might need a couple of johnsom pri's to lift and move the wall. Also when the wall tips it grows in height because of the width of the wall. You can always fill the gap with insulation.
I suppose some of that is dependent on your desire or ability to stack hives lol. One complication is that as this is an old hog barn the floor slopes to a center trough. So this separating wall will be a bit wonky. As far as how big of a space...I guess that is somewhat dependent on door placement. The door into my bee room is 10 feet from the right and a bit over 8 ft from the left. I could put the separating wall initially to the left of the door and move it to th right if ever needed. Either way I?m planning on wintering bees in the left section due to proximity to the breaker box. No need to spend more on wire than is necessary.
Edit I meant to ask if my pictures were coming through? I couldn?t figure out how to post them to the topic but the link for the pics seems to work for me. I messed up on the base plate closest to you in the pic. Going into town tomorrow. Will need more 2x4s to finish wall.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YyKxLplPehbGKhly2
I can see the pictures fine. Are you going to put a wooden floor over the concrete or is that framework for a wall? If it is a floor then it could be level.
Quote from: Acebird on February 22, 2018, 09:14:13 AM
I can see the pictures fine. Are you going to put a wooden floor over the concrete or is that framework for a wall? If it is a floor then it could be level.
That?s the frame for the wall. I?m not planning on doing anything with the floor.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/h9gtbBy7v7Bz1pSo2
So I got the wall finished and put up. After a few measurements I can put up my divider wall at about four feed from my wall on the left. That?d give me a 4?x12?x8? space. With Lang hive bodies being 20? I can fit two rows with a small aisle between. That give me plenty of space for now. If I did ever expand I?d just move the wall as acebird suggested. I was contemplating putting the wall to the next stud over, which would give me over 5?, but I decided against it. I don?t need that big of an aisle and it?s just more space to heat. At this stage I?ll be able to likely fit all of my hives along one side anyways.
I did email Ian a few questions. He didn?t give me a straight answer as to how many hives it would take to heat a space but he did say that the minimum cubic feet per hive is 20 and that his current hive count actually brings him to 18 cubic feet. So a 4x12x8 ft space gives me 384 ft^3. If I still have three hives in the spring and add three Nucs in may I?ll be up to 6. From there I hope to take a few splits and make some Nucs to overwinter. Not sure how to count a nuc but if it?s a 5 over 5 nuc that?s the same as his single 10 frame deep at least in frame count. So for the sake of simplicity I?ll just count it as a hive. If I am able to make three Nucs from splits I?d be up to 9. If populations warrant I?d love to get to 12. If I get to 9 that be ~42 ft^3 per hive. If I get to 12 that?d be 32 ft^3. Not bad. It?d take 18 would bring me to 21. Any more than that and I?d be forced to move my wall I think (at least by the numbers). At this point having six productions hives and 12 Nucs each winter sounds like a good three year plan.
I?d put the intake on the far side on the ceiling. I could always connect it to the soffit. The exhaust would be on opposite side near the floor. So that?d be in the new wall on the left. Ceiling fan would be centrally located as would the door into the area. Heater would be on the ceiling in the back near where the intake vent would be.
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af52/dpboll/C8090456-3654-4B0E-A54D-70E4F316F852_zpse4kqmkgk.jpeg) (http://s993.photobucket.com/user/dpboll/media/C8090456-3654-4B0E-A54D-70E4F316F852_zpse4kqmkgk.jpeg.html)
Triple post ftw! I wanted to share the link I found below. According to bluebee a hive will produce 20-40 watts. There are plenty of websites dedicated to calculating the required wattage to heat a space, which is meant to calculate which shop heater you need. According to a few sites I need between 350-450 watts for my 4?-12? space. I would need 12 hives to get close to that minimum. I feel quite comfortable with that, especially with a good heater as a backup.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=32136.0
Not sure if you ever looked at this document. Last page talks about indoor wintering. (i.e. 3-10g of moisture and 8-28 watts per hour) and describes the ventilation model.
http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf
The newest edition of https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13598243-beekeeping-in-western-canada also has a section on indoor wintering.
I have read the article but have not read the book. I will have to look into that. Seems very interesting. I will be honest that I never noticed the chart on the bottom. Capabees.org has a few cool articles on the subject. I will be honest that I have never looked into the volume of air moved by my current setup. A quick google search indicates that this fan runs at 65 cfm. So in a 4x12x8 I should be able to cycle the air in the space in six minutes if my math is correct. One thing I notice is that their fan pushes air out whereas mine pulls air in. I actively blow air in and passively let it move out. Maybe I should be doing the opposite. Either way at this time I?d rather over ventilate and have my heater run some. Seems like the safer route. I have found controllers that could turn my fan on/off based off of the humidity in the room. Not sure if it?s better to do that or just have it cycle two or three times a day fifteen minutes at a time as I?m doing now.
Your fan is rated at 65 CFM with open discharge when you put any restriction the CFM drops. You are pressuring the shed so your flow will be reduced but if you were evacuating the air from the shed the flow would be less. Having said all this in my ex-professional opinion you are ok. If you have to reduce the flow of air, reduce the inlet opening, the fan will use less current and in that temperature cooling the motor will not be a problem.
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 23, 2018, 07:53:14 PM
One thing I notice is that their fan pushes air out whereas mine pulls air in.
It is the same volume of air going in and out. If the fan does not frost up pulling the air in is OK. I would assume you are providing an exhaust port. If that doesn't ice up there should be no problem.
I plan (and currently use) an air intake high up on one side. The air intake is active in that it has the fan. The exhaust is passive and is on the opposite side of the shed close to the ground. I use those units that you put on the side of your house to vent dryer ducts/bathroom fan ducts. Mostly to keep mice out. So there will be some reduction, but my unprofessional opinion also thinks it?ll be fine. :)
I think you "got It". How do know when to move the hives in or out of the shed?
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 23, 2018, 11:25:46 PM
I use those units that you put on the side of your house to vent dryer ducts/bathroom fan ducts. Mostly to keep mice out.
I would have suggested mounting the duct about 3' from the ground and then install an elbow and a 2-1/2 foot section if you wanted to draw the air from the floor. I take it the flapper doesn't freeze?
Moving in and out is dictated by my time and weather. It seems that they typically go in sometime in December and go out sometime in March.
I?ve never had issues with freezing. I?ll be honest however that where my shed is currently located it?s not easily accessible. It?s not far it?s just a trudge through some snow. I do check in them periodically. I can assess temp from the house. So when I do go out I check vent and mountain camp sugar. Whenever I have checked the vent has bee working. I wonder if I had a fan exhausting to the outside it I?d have freezing on the grill. Warm moist air going across the grill seems like a possibility, although after thinking about it I?ve never checked that lol. Just that air is coming in, never the status of the exhaust. Lol. Either way with my new setup my exhaust will go into the main body of my shed. So I won?t have to worry so much about that.
The only place you will get frost is the outgoing air that has moisture from the bees. The in coming air is cold and dry.
This winter I placed 100-watt ceramic black light under each nuc hive inside an empty nuc box. On top box is
the active hive. So after this shed is finish you can do the same for the 12 hives. No need to actively heat up
the entire shed during whole winter. Over here electric is expensive.
How do you control the environment of each hive with a light bulb? One day of over temp and you got a big problem. Cost of controlling 12 hives vs. 1 shed is 12:1.
Quote from: beepro on February 25, 2018, 08:38:08 PM
This winter I placed 100-watt ceramic black light under each nuc hive inside an empty nuc box. On top box is
the active hive. So after this shed is finish you can do the same for the 12 hives. No need to actively heat up
the entire shed during whole winter. Over here electric is expensive.
While I?m not sure what part of California you are from....is any sort of heat necessary in any part of California? Before I started keeping bees indoors I tried all sorts of tricks. I even tried the lightbulb thing. I tried some heat tape. I used tar paper. I completely encased hives in that rigid foam board stuff. I came to realize a few things. First off bees won?t heat their hive. They heat their cluster. You also have zero control when you are trying to heat an individual hive. If you are going to try to add heat to a hive you need to heat the space around them.
I am not certain that heating a shed with lights is safe or energy efficient. The shed needs to be completely dark. So even if you miss a little crack in the bulb cover it could spell bad news. A light bulb may also not be nearly enough heat during those miserable -20 to -30 degree nights. Temperature needs to be pretty tightly controlled.
My goal is to ultimately have my hives heat the space they are in as the commercial operators do. The picture was of some empty equipment that I put in my new wintering room. If I can pack this many hives in the space the heater won?t have to run much.
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af52/dpboll/28AA547F-DA1F-4A94-A24B-8E2DF7754C6F_zpstrash8th.jpeg) (http://s993.photobucket.com/user/dpboll/media/28AA547F-DA1F-4A94-A24B-8E2DF7754C6F_zpstrash8th.jpeg.html)
Ca goes from desert to glacier. Beepro lives closer to the desert.
>If I can pack this many hives in the space the heater won?t have to run much.
Hopefully you wll reach that level soon. Your shed is looking good so far. :smile:
Shed related question. In my current setup I can open the doors and allow my bees a cleansing flight. I have not stressed so much about that. However I want to try to stimulate my hives this spring. You can?t feed syrup or pollen patties without cleansing flights. So what I am thinking about doing is feeding with an inverted jar and pollen patty. We have gotten a few nice days in the 30s with some warm sun. I can face my hives out towards the door, open the door during the day, and shut it at night. Is there any reason this can?t work? How often do you think I?ll need to open the doors?
The nice thing is that the heater in the shed will make it easier for the bees to take down syrup.
I don't think they can take syrup if it is in the 40's and I wouldn't let them out if it is less than 45. If the shed is insulated it will be colder inside on a warm day then the outside temp. So they might stay inside unless you intentionally heated the shed up. Then the question becomes how do you get them back inside and closed up. I would not want to experiment with all my hives and find out it is the wrong thing to do.
Quote from: Acebird on February 28, 2018, 05:40:04 PM
I don't think they can take syrup if it is in the 40's and I wouldn't let them out if it is less than 45. If the shed is insulated it will be colder inside on a warm day then the outside temp. So they might stay inside unless you intentionally heated the shed up. Then the question becomes how do you get them back inside and closed up. I would not want to experiment with all my hives and find out it is the wrong thing to do.
Experimenting and doing the wrong thing is my biggest fear. I was planning on using night as a way to corral them back in.
It could work out. But if you heated the shed up hopefully it will be cool enough at night to keep them in. BTW your shed should not have any glass showing or it will trap bees.
According to my research, our location is a semi-desert like condition in our micro-climate. Sometimes flooding in one year and sometimes no rains for 5 consecutive years. Been there before!
To control the hive temp, I have a series of ceramic bulbs individually connected on a power strip into each hive with a temp controller. It is not that hard to modify for this multiple hives set up. The low side on the controller is set at 80F and high at 85F. The bulb is inside the bottom empty nuc box with a sensor. So heat just flow upward into the colony of bees with a 1/4" solid cardboard divider inbetween them. The colony temp is around 60F enough for the bees to become active at night when the outside temp is in the mid-30s. At this temp it is frosty outside at night. At 40-50F the bees became inactive inside (at night) meaning that they don't feed on the syrup anymore. So the ideal hive temp is around 60-80F in order for them to continue feeding. Got all these figured out from my little tests to see how a colony react in a low and high temp environment.
When the colony is pack with bees there is no need to regulate the hive temp with the light bulb. I don't need to because they don't require it. In this test I just want to see how a colony would grow or decline because temperature will have an affect on them. Now I see it through the hive expansion and contraction phases. Applying extra heat during the winter is very different from the Spring.
In your case, I would have multiple pvc tubes extending from the hives to the outside. This way you don't have to mess with opening and shutting the door. It gets tiresome after a while. On you tube there is a vid about using pvc tubes to connect to the outside environment. All you need to do now is to heat up the individual hive with black ceramic bulb and a temp controller with 2 power strips to connect them all.
Quote from: Bush_84 on February 28, 2018, 08:26:19 PM
Experimenting and doing the wrong thing is my biggest fear. I was planning on using night as a way to corral them back in.
If it were me, I'd make holes in one wall, and connect pvc tubes ( 2-4" dia) from each hive to it's corresponding hole. Then, cover each hole on the outside with a 'gun-port' (heavy duty cat-flap) hinged at it's top. If you leave a few inches between box and wall, this space can then be filled with insulation.
Then, on warm days, simply open the flap widely. If rain is a possibility, or if you're not sure about the warmth of the day - then swing open the ports to leave just an inch gap at their bottoms.
With regard to heating, I've never EVER understood the enthusiasm shown for light bulbs by the beekeeping community, when there are far more robust solutions available - such as heating tape and similar. For anyone wanting to heat individual hives there are small silicone heating mats (12V, 10W) available on Ebay, but I much prefer to make my own heater plates from aluminium-clad resistors bonded onto small sheets of aluminium:
(http://i66.tinypic.com/doxwu9.jpg)
When using 25W resistors (the cheapest size) I match resistance with the voltage available (never more than 24V) to give an output of around 15 Watts. This is then controlled at somewhere around 50% (nominal). In practice I find that 7.5 Watts is more than enough, but it's always nice to have a few watts in reserve, just in case it should get very cold. The cost of making and controlling heaters for individual hives is insignificant - certainly no more than $10 a hive.
I've made them, bench-tested them, and even installed them ... and then I removed them as being an unnecessary precaution, as over several years they never got used - not even once - and so they've been collecting dust in the shed ever since. And right now I'm kicking myself for not having these heaters in place. A perfect example of Sod's Law in action.
LJ
Quote from: little john on March 01, 2018, 07:52:36 AM
If it were me, I'd make holes in one wall, and connect pvc tubes ( 2-4" dia) from each hive to it's corresponding hole. Then, cover each hole on the outside with a 'gun-port' (heavy duty cat-flap) hinged at it's top. If you leave a few inches between box and wall, this space can then be filled with insulation.
If you close off the only entrance to a hive how does it ventilate? Our club loses the OB hive every year because IMO even when the tube is open the hive gets very little ventilation. They have gone to cutting holes in the hive and screening them over. It helped but they still lose hives. In the case of our OB hive the bees are active because room temperature is 72 and they can't go outside in sub freezing weather.
Heat tape used to melt ice dams of the edge of a roof runs for $80 - 150 range and has no control at all. It is one thing to supplement heat. It is another to maintain 40 degrees when ambient swings on a daily basis to temperatures that reach -30. I would not do as you suggest in his climate. I would look at those that have succeeded in his climate conditions and try to imitate on the cheap.
Brian - I'm assuming you've heard of Open Mesh Floors. Bags of ventilation. Inside a controlled environment they should work rather well.
I'm not sure why you're preoccupied with heating tape, as nowhere have I suggested that the OP uses this in his shed. What I said was that there are more robust solutions to heating - such as heating tape - than the use of light bulbs. But that was a general comment - not directed at anything or anybody in particular.
I went on to describe two methods of heating individual hives - which is my own preferred method. You implied earlier that this is an expensive solution - but it really isn't. I've done it, I've proved this - and with a lot more hives than the OP. It's only a great pity that I don't have those heaters in place at this moment, as they're sorely needed right now. But that is my management error, not a technical or design error.
However, heating each hive individually is a very different strategy from creating an overall controlled-environment for multiple hives - in which I maintain that the use of 'gun-ports' would be a lot more predictable in their operation than opening shed doors and hoping that the bees find their way back afterwards. This is the only suggestion I've made in regard of the OP's Bee Shed - but as you're of the opinion that this isn't a very good idea, I await to hear your own solution to this logistical problem of providing access to the outside on warm, sunny days.
LJ
I wouldnt normally worry about it, but I want to try to maximize my hives. I had heater troubles during our coldest part of the winter and lost a lot of hives. I?m down to 2 out of 11. So I?m trying to boost what I have left. One thing to keep in mind with my current setup is that the doors are double doors that open directly to the outside. I can face my two remaining hives to the door and simply open the door. They will be directly exposed without having to find their way back into a specific spot in the shed.
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af52/dpboll/C2E32561-FBEB-4255-B547-D25592D3F9B9_zpsuugs3si5.jpeg) (http://s993.photobucket.com/user/dpboll/media/C2E32561-FBEB-4255-B547-D25592D3F9B9_zpsuugs3si5.jpeg.html)
Picture of my current setup. With this shed I can easily have three hives facing the door and not get to concerned about them making it back. I just put them close to the door facing out.
Bush, nice shed for the bees. You work hard for the bees, well done. I like the cat and the snow.
Blessings
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on March 01, 2018, 04:19:01 PM
Bush, nice shed for the bees. You work hard for the bees, well done. I like the cat and the snow.
Blessings
Thanks for the compliment but that?s the hunk of junk I?m replacing. It doesn?t have electric so I?m running an extension cord out to it, which is neither reliable nor safe. As you can see it was in need of paint when I moved in nearly 4 years ago. It has a hold in the wall, which I conveniently used as a ventilation port lol. It also had a huge tree limb fall on it just before we moved in. That was patched but never fully repaired. The shingles also needed to be redone when I moved in.
Honestly I wish I would have done my current build initially. It was one of those things that has been right in front of my face the entire time but I never saw. I am certain that I would have more than two hives right now had this new wintering room been in service last fall.
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on March 01, 2018, 04:19:01 PM
Bush, nice shed for the bees. You work hard for the bees, well done. I like the cat and the snow.
Blessings
/nods
Yeh, looks great to me also. I'll have to go back to read why it 'failed'.
Nice looking pu55y. great to give scale to the shed ;-)))
Bill
(edited) ..carnt believe ol'Ginger there won me a "bleep" in the
post!...heh heh
Quote from: little john on March 01, 2018, 12:55:59 PM
I went on to describe two methods of heating individual hives - which is my own preferred method. You implied earlier that this is an expensive solution - but it really isn't. I've done it, I've proved this - and with a lot more hives than the OP. It's only a great pity that I don't have those heaters in place at this moment, as they're sorely needed right now. But that is my management error, not a technical or design error.
But John you are not dealing with -30 degrees for weeks or months. That changes everything. If you provide a single source heating device, blanket, light bulb, heat tape, to each hive in a seriously cold environment the bees will cluster toward that heating device consume their stores around them and then starve. That is why if you intend to provide a man made environment for the hive it must be a controlled temperature around the whole hive and not just provide a simple heat source.
I really can't improve upon what Bush84 plans to do other than what I talked about already for letting the bees out on a warm day. All I can say is that I have witnessed warm mornings with sun after very cold nights and the bees don't go out for hours (like until noon). I think this happens because the honey is frozen and inside the hive is not very warm until hours of warm temperatures have made it so. They don't break cluster, they don't know it is warm outside. Of course when it happens it happens and it become a poop shower.
My thought was that bush84 may have to raise the temperature in the shed some time prior to letting them out and then I don't know what will happen about getting them back in. I am thinking the first time he tries it he better not get involved in something else and forget the time. I am thinking when the sun goes down the temperature will drop like a rock. But maybe the timing isn't so critical. I just don't know.
Quote from: Acebird on March 01, 2018, 05:22:24 PM
Quote from: little john on March 01, 2018, 12:55:59 PM
I went on to describe two methods of heating individual hives - which is my own preferred method. You implied earlier that this is an expensive solution - but it really isn't. I've done it, I've proved this - and with a lot more hives than the OP. It's only a great pity that I don't have those heaters in place at this moment, as they're sorely needed right now. But that is my management error, not a technical or design error.
But John you are not dealing with -30 degrees for weeks or months. That changes everything.
Which is precisely why in the truncated quote you've given above I went on to say:
"
However, heating each hive individually is a very different strategy from creating an overall controlled-environment for multiple hives - in which ..."
LJ
It was multiple factors. This last year was the first year I went heavy into splits and queen rearing. Having never done it before, I learned a lot the hard way. My biggest mistake was making up Nucs to weak to late. I should have just left it. That was 3 out of 11. I tried a new heater this winter. It was an oil filled radiator heater. I figured it?d be safer than a regular space heater. It did an awful job. I kept tripping the circuit breaker and my shed routinely dipped into the low teens f when we had an awful cold snap. Before I took action (I didn?t right away another lesson learned) I lost another five. So that brings me to 8 out of 11. The last one I lost I think was weakened and just didn?t have the muster to make it through the rest of the winter. The two remaining were the strongest hives I had going into winter. One is a swarm I hived in a nuc, which is residing in a 5x5 deep nuc. The other is in a triple 8 frame deep. They both look ok. They both have mountain camp sugar left.
So that is what happened. After looking at the first dead outs the first three appeared to simply have clusters to smal to maintain heat. Out of the next five, they all had sufficient clusters and honey remaining. Their clusters all had bees with heads in comb and honey on the frame over or in the box overhead. Some had a small patch of brood. This is precisely why I keep bees in a shed. If I can keep temps nice and cozy, I avoid tight and immobile clusters. In the years previous I have never lost a hive in the winter. With my new space I will have tighter control of temperature and ventilation. I will also have zero electric issues.
As far as what to do about it...I still think I?m going to give it a go. We are supposed to get close to 40f on Sunday. The sun here is quite warm now. That is generally enough to trigger a cleansing flight. I will open the door in he afternoon. Having done this a few times before my experience is that they will all make it back as it either cools or gets dark. I simply just close the doors at that point. This way I can start feeding and adding pollen sub. I want these hives to be huge by the time May comes around.
Quote from: eltalia on March 01, 2018, 04:49:04 PM
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on March 01, 2018, 04:19:01 PM
Bush, nice shed for the bees. You work hard for the bees, well done. I like the cat and the snow.
Blessings
/nods
Yeh, looks great to me also. I'll have to go back to read why it 'failed'.
Nice looking pu55y. great to give scale to the shed ;-)))
Bill
(edited) ..carnt believe ol'Ginger there won me a "bleep" in the
post!...heh heh
Quote from: Bush_84 on March 01, 2018, 08:03:08 PM
This way I can start feeding and adding pollen sub.
Ugh! How will you feed in temperatures that will not allow it?
I am sure that some people, maybe most will disagree with me but in your area burn the dinks in fall and only try to bring hives that proved their willingness to tackle winter through your brutal climate. So as I see it no less than two deeps or 4-5 mediums if you are going that way.
Quote from: Acebird on March 01, 2018, 08:39:12 PM
Quote from: Bush_84 on March 01, 2018, 08:03:08 PM
This way I can start feeding and adding pollen sub.
Ugh! How will you feed in temperatures that will not allow it?
I am sure that some people, maybe most will disagree with me but in your area burn the dinks in fall and only try to bring hives that proved their willingness to tackle winter through your brutal climate. So as I see it no less than two deeps or 4-5 mediums if you are going that way.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that I have officially entered into a time of year where I will start to have issues cooling my shed. The sun is getting warm and is heating up my shed during the day and my heater doesn?t really run unless things really take a cold turn. It looks like we are going to get a low of 4 next Wednesday but it?s supposed to be decent between now and then. So highs in the 40s to even in the 50s on those nice days (in my shed not outside temps). So they will have days when they will be able to take down some syrup, especially with a jar over the cluster. My biggest concern would be their ability to have cleansing flights.
Just ventilate to keep it down to 40. Wait until flying weather to feed.
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af52/dpboll/49E4ADE1-62D8-426E-AE8C-D03B060BCC16_zpswksj8vya.jpeg) (http://s993.photobucket.com/user/dpboll/media/49E4ADE1-62D8-426E-AE8C-D03B060BCC16_zpswksj8vya.jpeg.html)
Not much of an update but I didn?t want to start another topic and figured it?d fit here well enough. I thought I was down to three hives. I was going to rearrange hives today in preparation for a planned cleansing flight this week. As I was moving boxes I saw bees coming out of the middle hive. I thought they were dead. They shall be dubbed Lazarus. When I opened the door the nuc was excited to get out and defecate. So I just left the door open. It?s not super warm today but the sun feels warm, it?s very sunny, and sheltered from the wind. Mid 30s f. So I figured that?d be good enough and if they think it?s good enough to fly then I?ll let them. I?ll shut the door when the sun sets. It?s supposed to get in the 40s later this week so I?ll open the door again then. Since they are getting some flying days I?ll add patties this week.
As far as the new build I?m going to get the rest of the 2x4s later this week for the second door. Wife and I are going to look at new doors for the house today. Once we get the new doors I?ll install old doors in the new wintering room. After that?s done I?ll focus on running electric.
This was a bit of an egocentric update but I was pumped to see bees in that middle hive.
Did you see them fly and return in the mid thirties? I would say that is a bit cool for flying weather.
Ya this is what I?d call a normal cleansing flight. Most are just hovering in front of the entrance and going back in. A few are flying off and not returning. I?ve slwaus assumed those were bees that knew they were taking their last flight.
A little update but to lazy to post pics. Both walls are built. Need to get the plywood and insulation in but they are framed up. I also have the wiring done. I ran two 20 amp circuits. That way I have the ability to run two heaters if need be. One circuit will have the heater and ventilation on it. The second will have lights and ceiling fan. I can plug in a backup heater to the second circuit if needed. The only thing I don?t have is lights in the larger storage room. I ran out of wire and it?s not necessary for it to function. So I?ll leave it for another day. Also wiring for ceiling fan is ready but fan is not installed as of yet. I am not a fan of attics and am not looking forward to going back in there to wire the additional light in the storage area.
My next step will be to get the plywood on. Haven?t purchased that yet. At some point we will be replacing the doors to our house and those will be repurposed.
The space dedicated to wintering is 4x12. I can easily line up 8-10 hives (depends on how tight I put them) along the wall. I can then stack Nucs on top. So this space should be adequate for my needs for some time. I tool acebird?s advice and made the wall a skosh short and narrow so I can adjust it if needed. I figure that I could move it a stud or two down and fit a second row. However at this time I?m not sure I have time for that many hives. If I had 10 production hives and 10 Nucs that be plenty.
Bush,
Pictures, got to have pictures. :happy:
Sounds like it is coming along. Keep us posted.
Jim
Ok. Not a ton to see but here?s what I got.
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af52/dpboll/4ABFC527-9564-425F-A4FC-6929133ED244_zpstdvi1kvk.jpeg) (http://s993.photobucket.com/user/dpboll/media/4ABFC527-9564-425F-A4FC-6929133ED244_zpstdvi1kvk.jpeg.html)
In this pic I?m standing in the storage section looking at the wintering section.
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af52/dpboll/975FD812-6A2F-4CA9-9C80-DBED4ADA73BD_zpsdylaii1e.jpeg) (http://s993.photobucket.com/user/dpboll/media/975FD812-6A2F-4CA9-9C80-DBED4ADA73BD_zpsdylaii1e.jpeg.html)
Light switch that goes to
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af52/dpboll/557D3EB4-2B73-4D27-A5A1-65DBC0C28BA2_zpssarpysux.jpeg) (http://s993.photobucket.com/user/dpboll/media/557D3EB4-2B73-4D27-A5A1-65DBC0C28BA2_zpssarpysux.jpeg.html)
A light. Switch is on the left as you enter the first door. I?m just going to install one for now. It?s a small space. I don?t figure it?ll need more than that. Eventually another light or two in the storage section.
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af52/dpboll/DD287EC4-0BC1-4577-B5C2-95915E2CD56C_zpsk3jriaxj.jpeg) (http://s993.photobucket.com/user/dpboll/media/DD287EC4-0BC1-4577-B5C2-95915E2CD56C_zpsk3jriaxj.jpeg.html)
One of two outlets. Each outlet is on a separate circuit. Don?t judge my wiring to harshly. All of the wiring is already run as seen here. So I ran what I could in the attic and the rest of the vertical wires just sit on top of the wall. As of now I?ll only put plywood on the outside of the walls. That?s why the light switch wiring is done on top of the 2x4. In hindsight I probably should have run it along the inside of the stud so I didn?t have to do it over again, but meh.
It?ll look more like a proper room once the doors and insulation are installed.
Sorry I can't help it... there are no jack studs for the door. No problem it is a barn but why the double plate on the top? These are not bearing walls otherwise the barn would have fallen down since the walls were not there before.
Making good progress.
Thanks for the pictures.
Jim
Quote from: Acebird on April 04, 2018, 08:44:02 PM
Sorry I can't help it... there are no jack studs for the door. No problem it is a barn but why the double plate on the top? These are not bearing walls otherwise the barn would have fallen down since the walls were not there before.
I am all for constructive criticism. The picture is an old one. The top plate for the door and jack studs have been since put in. I could have gotten away with a single top plate but in my limited experience I have found the double plate to be more sturdy and easier to work with, especially if I am going to eventually move that smaller wall. I don?t want extra points in the wall that have a little flex and bend.
Dan - a little off-topic perhaps, but - you're the only person I know who keeps beehives in a shed ...
In your experience of keeping hives inside a shed - are wax-moths any less of a problem ?
I was mulling over the pros and cons of using sheds this morning, and it occurred to me that if ventilation ducts were fitted with fine mesh screens, and (in less severe climates) the entrances were fitted with anti-robbing mesh, then wax moths would have quite a hard time gaining access. Not suggesting it would eliminate the problem entirely (as any small crack would provide means of entry) but it might reduce the numbers significantly.
LJ
Tbh my use of a shed doesn?t really effect wax moth much. I keep them in the shed during the winter months when wax moth is not an issue. Whether they are inside or outside it is cold and they are dormant. Once the weather gets nice (crossing my fingers that next week is that time) I take my bees out to their summer stands. So my use of a shed doesn?t really effect wax moth at all. However if you were looking at a bee house where they keep their hives in there year round I?d imagine that it?d help.
I generally haven?t had much of an issue with wax moth. The freezing winters help. I also believe that another help is that I seem to always be short of comb. So it?s always in use. This year may be different with my rough winter loss. I have boxes and boxes of comb sitting in my workshop but I?m hoping that all eggs froze over winter and none will be able to get in my workshop. So I honestly haven?t given them much of a thought as I?ve never really had issues with them.
A bit of a grave dig I know. I don?t have pics on hand but I did end up getting my shed done. I got busy with life and haven?t made it back here for some time. There were some following my progress and I figured it was worth updating. Whenever I have gone back there things seem to be running perfectly. The only issue is a handful of bees are finding their way out. Not sure. I can stand in there and see not even the slightest sliver of light. They must see something I don?t. Ceiling fan running constantly. I have my ventilation system running more than I thought I would. When I have been in there it always seems to be 35 f. So I figured more ventilation would be a good thing. I believe it is running four times a day and 30 minutes a crack.
I do wish I would have made it a little wider. I can put one row of hives against the wall with a small walkway. I had 11 going in but two were dead when they went in. I had to stack the lightest two on top due to lack of room. Was not fun lifting by hand. I built the wall to be movable if needed but I?m not sure I?ll do that yet. I?d rather adjust my beekeeping goals for now. I figure if I winter 8 production hives that they can form the bottom row. The rest can be nucs and will be easier to lift and put on top. I don?t really need more than that anyways. I just want to be self sustainable in what I do.
Why do you assume the bees are finding light if it is only a handful?
Not sure how else they would be getting out of their wintering space and on the other side of the wall. It?s probably closer to two handfuls but it?s nothing compared to the normal drop from a hive in winter. I just figure that if they are getting out and coming out more or less in a pile then there must be a crack. If there?s a crack then there?s probably a small amount of light undetectable to my eye. There?s actually two spots. One in a corner that goes to the rest of the shed and another right outside the door. I haven?t stressed enough to really dig. I did jam some fiberglass insulation into the corner where there was a small pile. The door is an old door repurposed. It never sealed well to begin with but I figured it wouldn?t matter for bees. Maybe I should tape up the seem that leaks air the worst. I?d just have to take it down and redo it whenever I go in there, which I try not to bother them much. I?ll get itchy to poke around a bit more when the snow disappears.