I am good friends with an elderly beekeeper, he also happens to be my most regular chess playing partner. He has bees and he keeps them treatment free and has for years. He has made me the offer, because I spend more time with my bees than he does and I have more energy, to let me have a couple of hives but just go halves on the honey harvested. To top it off I bet he will even deliver the hives. Would this be a good idea to get proven resistant bees even if I only get half the honey or should I try to split my own hive to expand out the bee operation?
You say "proven resistant bees" - but are they ? Let me expand on that ...
By "treatment-free", do you mean chemical-free ? (most people do) Because he may be 'treating' them in a physical way: brood breaks, removal of drone comb and so forth. If that is the case, then is that something that you already do - or something you'd be prepared to do ? Might be worth asking him about his method of working, perhaps ?
LJ
No treatment and because of some health issues actual very little interaction with his hives. In fact this caused him to lose many of his hives and just is now getting back to actually taking care of his bees. This caused his lone hive that lived to survive without a humans for a couple of years. They have now swarmed and taken up space in some of his other hive bodies.
Can't think of any reason not to take him up on his offer, he's going to mentor you and supply some bees also, hey go for it. Just on a side note I would still perform a mite count every month just to keep track of what is happening. Luck with it.
Wallace,
By all means, I would accept the offer. Sounds like a great deal.
Jim
Quote from: bwallace23350 on April 07, 2018, 09:51:42 AM
I am good friends with an elderly beekeeper, he also happens to be my most regular chess playing partner. He has bees and he keeps them treatment free and has for years.
Are you treating? If so I would not move them to your house if it is possible to work them at his house. Take the swarm first. If all goes well take the rest.
Quote from: bwallace23350 on April 07, 2018, 10:23:56 AM
No treatment and because of some health issues actual very little interaction with his hives. In fact this caused him to lose many of his hives and just is now getting back to actually taking care of his bees. This caused his lone hive that lived to survive without a humans for a couple of years. They have now swarmed and taken up space in some of his other hive bodies.
Hi - from what you write, I can't think of one single reason not to take him up on that offer - seems to me that you have absolutely nothing to lose, and everything to gain. You might even get real lucky with developing a resistant/tolerant line.
Best of luck,
LJ
Ace, I have treatment free and treated hives in the same yard. Works well for me.
I have something of about 10 acres to put the bees on. They will be on the same continuous plot of ground but not side by side
I am going to take him up on the offer.
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on April 07, 2018, 03:51:56 PM
Ace, I have treatment free and treated hives in the same yard. Works well for me.
I can see that happening.
I think it is quite different to take bees that have not been treated for a long time and move them to an apiary where treatment is practiced. The untreated hives could parish very quickly. Moving any hive that is untreated to anywhere else is a risk in itself.
There is fear that it could go the other way. The untreated hive is presumed a mite bomb and takes out the treated hives. I think that is more fear then reality.
I don't know that I agree with Tom Seeley's conclusions but when he took survivor feral bees and put them in the beeyard and they died, he concluded it was the higher virulence of the treated mites that caused it, which is not unreasonable. You are selecting for virulent mites whenever you treat. You are selecting for mites that can reproduce fast enough to make up for you killing them in large numbers. I think the other thing Seeley failed to take into account was cell size... He put the feral survivors on large cell foundation.
Thanks, Ace, MB for the comments, so noted.
MB{You are selecting for virulent mites whenever you treat.}
This is correct if one is referring to a miticide that has a prominent mode of action (such as inhibition of cell wall synthesis, penicillin) as most antibiotics vs bacteria, very true. However when I do treat I treat with oxalic acid (a natural component of Honey) with has multi modes of action which poses the question in resistance even possible.
oxalic acid has so many modes of action to a Varroa mite, compare the acid to fire: pertaining to modes of action only. Can an organism resist or acquire resistance to fire with so many modes of action. Certainly fire has more modes of action than oxalic acid, I am exaggerating to make a point.
I cannot state resistance is impossible, I worked with antibiotic resistant organisms for decades in a P4 laboratory in which there about 3-4 such labs in the US. P4 laboratorys are the highest secured labs on the planet. One can?t not even walk into these laboratories without passing through multiple armed Federal Guards. Doors are automatically controlled via a Body sensor and passage is tracked.
My boss would present me a particular bacterium, note fatalities, P3, then advise me to discover the genesis of resistance. How did the organism acquired resistance to multi antibiotics.
So even with multi modes of action, for oxalic acid I just cannot say ?resistance is impossible? but I consider resistance unlikely, given so many modes of action with oxalic acid.
Blessings
According to Seeley the cell size the bees had "naturally" built in the feral colonies measured 5.3 mm.
The comments on this post have been very enlightening, The very reason that I joined this forum! Your Great minds discussing different opinions on the same subject, all in a gentlemanly manner. This is why I joined this forum in the first place, to learn from the pros and not be afraid to ask a question from time to time. learning from the best! As being new here, I would like to hear some of the lady's chime in and express their thought on this also? Thanks to all.
Sincerely, Phillip Hall. "Ben Feamed"
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on April 10, 2018, 01:24:59 PM
[...] I consider resistance unlikely, given so many modes of action with oxalic acid.
Resistance to synthetic systemic miticides I can easily envisage, but not to the physical assault of Oxalic Acid. A mite would need to develop the equivalent of prosthetic mouth-parts AND feet in order to acquire resistance to such an aggressive acid.
It's been in use now for over 20 years and there's still no sign yet of any resistant mites. The only reason we still have a mite problem over here in Europe is because so many people are NOT treating with OA, and so are keeping a viable population of mites alive which then spread into neighbouring treated hives.
LJ
Quote from: Michael Bush on April 10, 2018, 11:34:24 AM
You are selecting for virulent mites whenever you treat. You are selecting for mites that can reproduce fast enough to make up for you killing them in large numbers.
Conjecture ... ? Or is there any hard evidence for this claim ?
LJ
Quote from: little john on April 10, 2018, 06:07:04 PM
The only reason we still have a mite problem over here in Europe is because so many people are NOT treating with OA, and so are keeping a viable population of mites alive which then spread into neighbouring treated hives.
LJ
LMAO This is by far the most twisted logic I have read on a forum.
Ace, I have a lot of respect for you fella, you have provided very sound advice to a lot of folks.
However: What Lil John stated ?the only reason we have mites....folks not treating with oxalic acid....?. Is very logical statement based on bonafide scientific knowledge. Lil John is no farm boy, he knows his science and what he does not know he is quick to say so.
I have to agree 100% with Lil John, it?s no laughing matter. The science is well understood and the same science has been applied from small pox to polio to controlling HIV. Parasite: apply least harmful most effective treatment, treat all, problem solved.
Blessings
I respect all of your scientific knowledge (which is way more than mine). But I see a flaw in the practical application of treating all hives to solve the mite problem. That flaw is the feral hives that can't be treated. So even if all managed hives were treated, there would always be mites alive to infect treated hives. These treated bees IMO would not be as well equipped to survive than ones that have not been treated.
Quote from: Acebird on April 10, 2018, 09:24:52 PM
Quote from: little john on April 10, 2018, 06:07:04 PM
The only reason we still have a mite problem over here in Europe is because so many
people are NOT treating with OA, and so are keeping a viable population of mites alive
which then spread into neighbouring treated hives.
LJ
LMAO This is by far the most twisted logic I have read on a forum.
Logic for you my friend is a rollacoaster, not a penny hardtwisted lolly!
:lmao:
Seriously :-))
I have already built my training modules in readiness for the day
VD - or VJ - get here. Are you telling me 7 (seven) months work is for
nought simply because you cannot follow the thought?
What is it I need to do break down the message?
Bill
Quote from: cao on April 10, 2018, 11:59:58 PM
(edit)
That flaw is the feral hives that can't be treated. So even if all managed hives were treated, there would
always be mites alive to infect treated hives. These treated bees IMO would not be as well equipped to
survive than ones that have not been treated.
This the line being pushed around the backrooms of b'keep gatherings
in this Country also, cao.
Sounds good, don't it?
Problem is it relies on an unknown, and an unkown which I read is behind
much of the controversy in the Americas and parts of Europia.
Being... the wild hives will carry Varroa *and* those colonies will transfer
that parent population to managed EHB field bees. Is any of that true?
As it has been reported wild colonies found to be Varroa "resistant" are
being used to support gene lines in managed EHB I am yet to be convinced
our wild populations will not react in a similar way when Varroa gets here.
That leaves what LJ is suggesting as being the reality if everyone applied
OA - no Varroa
Bill
Quote from: cao on April 10, 2018, 11:59:58 PM
These treated bees IMO would not be as well equipped to survive than ones that have not been treated.
I respect any one with a science background but this is logical thinking.
Van, science has brought us "life saving" drugs to control cholesterol levels only to find out it doesn't matter whether you take them or not. And the kicker is diet and exercise would help more. Treating is on the rise so is death.
Ace, I have to agree with ya on chlorleserol, big pharma just wants money so the science is a little crooked.
{We} my working career, we told big pharma there was a problem with the new proposed Lyme vaccine {based on OSP A antigen} We told pharma their was likelihood of an autoimmune disease. Well, they wanted money, pharma ignored our warning, created and dispense the vaccine with disastrous results.
The science was there, bonafied accurate data, but the lust for money was greater than the warning. Same with cholesterol drugs today. The science, the real data was good, but the vision was clouded, blurred with greed.
BTW: I was one they threw the chlorestrol at, I dodged the bullet, refused to take the drug, I knew the data, the bonafied data. For twelve years I have refused those chlorestrol reducing drugs.
This chlorestrol may seem off topic, but relates indirectly to science of oxalic acid which is bonafide data.
Blessings
>MB{You are selecting for virulent mites whenever you treat.}
This is correct if one is referring to a miticide that has a prominent mode of action (such as inhibition of cell wall synthesis, penicillin) as most antibiotics vs bacteria, very true. However when I do treat I treat with oxalic acid (a natural component of Honey) with has multi modes of action which poses the question in resistance even possible.
I'm not talking about resistance to chemicals. Any treatment that kills mites is selecting for mites that can reproduce fast enough to make up for those killed by the treatments regardless of the mode of action. Systemic acarcides, of course, are also selecting for resistance to the chemicals as well. But that aspect of resistance does not necessarily make the mites more virulent. It is killing them by any means that selects for reproductive capability.
For a moment, let's compare a few different varieties of apples and leave out the oranges, the oranges being synthetic chemicals and the apples being acids now used as pesticides, Oxalic, Formic and Boric.
Formic acid has a growing history as an effective miticide in our hives. Formic acid is made naturally by certain insects and is used by those insects as a powerful defense mechanism against their predators, and has been for millennia. Formic acid is also used by humans as an anti-bacterial preservative. We don't see a lot of discussion about resistance developing to formic acid. Is there any indication of such?
Boric acid has been used a household and industrial insecticide for over 100 years and is still going. It's used against ants, cockroaches, silverfish and other household pests. It is even reported to kill rodents. I do not know of any resistance developing against boric acid. I wouldn't try BA in my hives as it is too strong but I use it in my own home on an as-needed basis when I get ants.
We all know the reported effects of oxalic acid on mites. At this point in time it seems to be a reasonably effective miticide with no known developed resistance in a 20+ year history of use in Europe. What we don't know yet are the longer term effects. Only time will tell. But, given the history of the other 2 acids mentioned and a growing track record of its own, I am willing to give OA the benefit of the doubt and use it in my own hives on an as-needed basis.
Acids work.
MB{I'm not talking about resistance to chemicals. Any treatment that kills mites is selecting for mites that can reproduce fast enough to make up for those killed by the treatments regardless of the mode of action.}
Yes, M. Bush, Agreed,,, reminded me of what a professor told me: stress an organism and the organism will adapt to the stress, if possible. However, Hops answered (very well I might add)my point with acids.
Hops, that text on acids is beautiful good analogy????100(s) of years is hard to argue. Point well made and taken.
If it were me, I would ask to graft some queens at his location to get the tf bees. Then transfer the queens to your current
location. The other half of the equation are the tf drones too to complete the whole tf process. Mating virgin queens at the
location of the treated bees are not that effective. You needed both! Why settle for half of the honey when you can have all of them?
Another option is to take your virgin queens there to mate with his tf drones. After the 2nd generation you will have majority of the tf bees then
you can take them back to your bee yard.
Quote from: Hops Brewster on April 11, 2018, 10:59:16 AM
I am willing to give OA the benefit of the doubt and use it in my own hives on an as-needed basis.
Acids work.
They work for some and not for others. Beekeepers for the most part are not doctors, scientist, or skilled technicians in the delivery of pesticides. Any pesticide can kill the target pest or the host. The line between one and the other is not that vast. In the case of bees it is difficult to know where that line is because most colonies are different. The environment is too large and varied for man to control. Man has never eradicated any disease, insect, or pest on the earth and never will for the next thousand years. As you say Van money is the motivation to target anything undesirable for the human race. You can just add OA to that list.