Well I guess I'm a senior now with beekeeping, going into my 4th year. My bees die every year and never make it through the Winter. I always start off with two hives from package bees. I have purchased them from Kelleys, Dadant, (I think I got some from Brushy Mountain or another place) and from the local club I belong to. The install usually goes good. They are in partial shade, facing South over a lake that is gradual. I have never seen a drowned bee. The first year I just let them do what they wanted so they wanted to swarm them got wax moths. I didn't wrap them so they froze. I wrapped the other years and they died. I feed throughout the year with sugar water. I leave the honey for them for the winter and they don't eat it. This last year I fed them fondant for the first time. They didn't touch it. All of them swarm no matter what I do. I caught one of my swarms, placed it in a new hive and they all left. They HATED those black plastic frames. For the first time last year one of my hives caught the V mites with the messed up wings and everything. Wax moths and bad smell too. Not giving up! But, I am going to treat for diseases this year.
I'll post some pictures later but I'm starting with two fresh from a package when it gets here. I froze all the honey frames and cleaned up all the boxes. Should I start with all new frames in the brood boxes or use a few old frames with drawn comb from last year? I've done both in the past.
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 12, 2018, 11:24:36 PM
Well I guess I'm a senior now with beekeeping, going into my 4th year. My bees die every year and never make it through the Winter. I always start off with two hives from package bees. I have purchased them from Kelleys, Dadant, (I think I got some from Brushy Mountain or another place) and from the local club I belong to. The install usually goes good. They are in partial shade, facing South over a lake that is gradual. I have never seen a drowned bee. The first year I just let them do what they wanted so they wanted to swarm them got wax moths. I didn't wrap them so they froze. I wrapped the other years and they died. I feed throughout the year with sugar water. I leave the honey for them for the winter and they don't eat it. This last year I fed them fondant for the first time. They didn't touch it. All of them swarm no matter what I do. I caught one of my swarms, placed it in a new hive and they all left. They HATED those black plastic frames. For the first time last year one of my hives caught the V mites with the messed up wings and everything. Wax moths and bad smell too. Not giving up! But, I am going to treat for diseases this year.
I'll post some pictures later but I'm starting with two fresh from a package when it gets here. I froze all the honey frames and cleaned up all the boxes. Should I start with all new frames in the brood boxes or use a few old frames with drawn comb from last year? I've done both in the past.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180413/d1158d64aafe66347f2541bb5853ff41.jpg)
Some of the combs look like this
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It's great that you aren't giving up. I'm a beginner so I can't answer all your questions. What type of bees have you been getting? From my research Carniolan bees do well in cold weather. That's the type I got a week ago on Saturday.
LizzieBee
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 12, 2018, 11:50:52 PM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 12, 2018, 11:24:36 PM
Well I guess I'm a senior now with beekeeping, going into my 4th year. My bees die every year and
never make it through the Winter.
(edit)
(https://uploads.tap %20atalk-cdn.com/20180413/d1158d64aafe66347f2541bb5853ff41.jpg)
Some of the combs look like this
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
G'day... welcome back Trooper :-))
Soooo... 100% loss?
Any clues in the debris...?...I recall there were moisture troubles
in at least one colony?
Bill
I'm glad you haven't given up.
I would say if you got them, use them. With that honey and drawn frames, you shouldn't have to feed your packages much.
Nope, into my 6th year of beekeeping I'm still consider a newbie. This is because I have not learn all and experimented all on this hobby. As long as I'm still learning and not feel comfortable in keeping the bees alive without much intervention then I'm a newbie.
For your situation I would advise on doing some swarm control to keep the mites to a minimum. To do this take a hive that is about to swarm and brush off all the attaching bees from the cap brood frames into the original hive. Original hive will be fill with the drawn frames without the cap broods. Then donate the cap brood frames into another active hive. This will remove 90% of the mites from the original hive.
In the original hive you will have drawn comb to replace the cap brood frames taken away. Now with the original queen and her bees in place they will restart the colony with new broods in the drawn comb. This will take the mites out of the hive and stop the swarming in the process. The queen will lay new eggs to replenish this colony. If you want a 100% mite free colony then take 1 frame of developing brood about to be cap from another colony without the attaching bees into this hive. All the remaining free running mites will go into these cap broods within a few day. Doing so will remove many of the mites from the hive. Repeat this for other hives as well. Also do a mite check on every bee emergence cycle to give you an idea of the infestation.
When these mite free hives are booming then graft queens from them. Repeat this process for at least 2-3 generation. That means once the new queens are laying choose the one with the most solid laying pattern to graft. Repeat this from the grand daughter queen to source the local bees genetics. Better than the package queens that are treated most of the time. So it does not matter where you source the original package bees from just graft at your location to get the local bees genetics. Without this your package bees will not survive that well in the winter time. Only the local bees can survive your cold and snowy winter!
During the winter time pack this hive with lots of new winter bees to ensure their winter survival. Give them plenty of food like sugar bricks and high protein patty subs for the winter. Put wind proof material around the hive in the winter time. Also try to source the tf queens or survival queens for genetic diversity on your bee yard.
For future expansion you can also use some new drawn comb so add some for them to draw out also.
Stop with the packages ... I am not saying you can't be successful with packages but you have tried 3 times. Find someone in MI close by (that is successful) where you can buy a proper nuc. No point in buying more than one until you can get it through a full year and then split it the next. Through out the dang sugar water. If the bees need to be fed then you don't have enough forage in your area to sustain bees.
By the looks of those three frames the bees starved, probably from too much feeding.
Good to hear you're not giving up. I'd also suggest that you source bees in one or two locally-produced nucs rather than packages.
Not being from your country I had to look up Michigan on a map of the US ...
In view of how far north you are, I'd make two further suggestions: firstly, those frames look very shallow compared with what I use (zero winter losses, but with a very different climate) - it might be worth fitting at least one box with deep, or even jumbo-depth frames(*) as well as bags of insulation around and on top of your hives.
Secondly - and more importantly - to seek advice from beekeepers who also operate at your latitude. I'm guessing that beekeeping is pretty challenging in your region and appropriate local experience would be invaluable.
Very best of luck for the coming season.
LJ
(*) You can still use the same boxes - simply make an eke of the right height to fit underneath them.
Why are your bees swarming? If your bees really are swarming every year then I?d remedy that first. A first year hive should not be swarming unless something goes wrong.
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 13, 2018, 02:36:35 PM
A first year hive should not be swarming unless something goes wrong.
I agree with this which is why he doesn't need to buy more than one hive to solve the problem. He does need to solve the problem though. I suspect he is feeding at the wrong time or for the wrong reason which encourages brood rearing. The hive gets jammed and they go. But that is just a guess.
Flex..... you can get your nuc's or packages here. They have training and will teach you how to manage your hives. I have rarely, if at all had a problem getting package from them to over winter here in Michigan. Carniolan is what I would get.
https://mailchi.mp/turtlebeefarms/honeybees-wow-3-lb-packages-99-up?e=3efdd6a172
I bought my 1st package from Waldo Bees, and they did great. Although I admit my winter is MUCH milder than yours, they probably have hearty bees up in your neck of the woods.
http://www.waldobees.com/
I am a long way away from Michigan, but for your location you need to do a " bee feed"/ botanical audit of what flowers when, does it yield pollen and nectar or just one or the other.
In Spring when you get your bees, prefer a Nuc, what is flowering then?, is there a feed supply for your hive to grow on?
Does any one else have bees close to you? Ask them for advice on what flowers when.
If no-one has bees in your area, is it a sign of being a tough area for bees.
If Winter is tough , look a polystyrene hive or make some insulation for them.
Although I agree with most of the previous comments, I will just add if you have not been treating for varroa mites, that is your biggest problem. Without addressing that, all the other recommendation will be for not.
Mites don't cause swarming or starvation. If he is buying mite bombs he needs to find another supplier.
Quote from: Acebird on April 15, 2018, 09:31:59 AM
Mites don't cause swarming or starvation. If he is buying mite bombs he needs to find another supplier.
Mites DO cause losses.
First of all, swarming doesn't cause wax moths that the OP described. Secondly, the OP mentions catching one swarm. Did the OP see the others actually swarm or just assume?
I have seen very similar results from beginners who did not treat. Rusty has a very nice write-up -> http://honeybeesuite.com/did-they-abscond-or-die-from-varroa/
Like Rusty, I don't buy into the absconding. For all the folks that have had this issues I have not heard of one actually seeing or finding the swarm, nor have I had any reports of late fall swarms. "Absconding" was unheard of around here until a few years ago when this phenomena started to happen.
It seems to happen to those with no, or hokey, treatment plans.
Swarming does not cause winter loss, and from looking at his frames with honey and the fact that he said he fed them I doubt it was starvation. Seems to me that he has bought from 3 different well know supplies so the issue is more than the source of his bees.
I would be hard pressed not to recommend varroa treatment for a beginner.
OP can do what he chooses, but unless he address varroa he is just chasing symptoms.
I treat my hives here in Central Arkansas in early March and Mid September with Oxylic Acid Vapor, 2 treatments 10 days apart.
Bees not treated will usually get weak then the Wax Moths move in and finish them off.
I don't know if ya'll have a Small Hive Beetle problem in Michigan but we sure do down here.
QuoteLike Rusty, I don't buy into the absconding. For all the folks that have had this issues I have not heard of one actually seeing or finding the swarm, nor have I had any reports of late fall swarms
Absconding is not swarming. They do not land and form a cluster. They just take off and nobody ever sees where they go.
Quote from: moebees on April 15, 2018, 02:37:49 PM
QuoteLike Rusty, I don't buy into the absconding. For all the folks that have had this issues I have not heard of one actually seeing or finding the swarm, nor have I had any reports of late fall swarms
Absconding is not swarming. They do not land and form a cluster. They just take off and nobody ever sees where they go.
I use the term swarm when part of a colony leaves for a new home. I use the term abscond when all the bees leave for a new home.
If I get your definitions, it doesn't matter if partial or all the bees leave, it just comes down to if we see where they go?
What do you call it when a hived swarm decides not to stay and takes off?
Quote from: Robo on April 15, 2018, 02:49:56 PM
Quote from: moebees on April 15, 2018, 02:37:49 PM
QuoteLike Rusty, I don't buy into the absconding. For all the folks that have had this issues I have not heard of one actually seeing or finding the swarm, nor have I had any reports of late fall swarms
Absconding is not swarming. They do not land and form a cluster. They just take off and nobody ever sees where they go.
I use the term swarm when part of a colony leaves for a new home. I use the term abscond when all the bees leave for a new home.
If I get your definitions, it doesn't matter if partial or all the bees leave, it just comes down to if we see where they go?
What do you call it when a hived swarm decides not to stay and takes off?
I agree. When all the bees (or essentially all the bees) leave it is absconding and when a portion leaves with the queen it is a swarm. I was addressing what you said in the quote above. You first said "I don't buy into the absconding". Implying that you do not think it occurs or that it is not something different from swarming because you go one to mention the lack of reports of fall swarms. My point is, that is not evidence that absconding is not occurring. Absconding behavior is totally different from swarming behavior.
I have not personally witnessed an abscond leave a hive but Michael Palmer has and he says they just take off and you have no idea where they went. You know a swarm travels rather slowly and if you are fit enough you can actually jog along under it.
But I also know that I have had it happen. I had a hive last fall that was booming with bees. I actually made the comment to a couple of people that if it was May they would swarm but it was late October. A week later I went to inspect and they hive was empty except for a couple dozen robbers. They certainly didn't dwindle. There wasn't enough time. There were no queen cells built as if they were swarming and they all left. Not just a portion. So I did not see them leave but the only explanation for the evidence is that they absconded.
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying above but that is why I responded as I did.
Fair enough, I should explain better.
I have no doubt that bees abscond, I have seen and heard many times newly hived swarms taking off. I have no reason to doubt Michael Palmer's experience, but do find it interesting. How do they now where they are going? Do they send scouts about before they abscond? If so, why don't swarms do the same? Questions, questions, questions!
What I was trying to say is that I don't believe these late fall vanishing hives are absconding. Regardless if the absconding bees go directly to a new home or cluster why the search out a new home is incidental as I have yet to hear of a late season colony moving into any structure.
I have inspected a few of these late season vanishings and they seem to have scattered capped brood left. After digging out the pupa I found a large amount with deformed wings. Interestingly enough, there were not any significant amount of varroa on the bottom boards.
Robo {I have inspected a few of these late season vanishings and they seem to have scattered capped brood left. After digging out the pupa I found a large amount with deformed wings. Interestingly enough, there were not any significant amount of varroa on the bottom boards.}
Exactly what happened to an extremely large hive, late August, 2017 in my Apiary.
The details: the bes just vanished, left behind capped Honey, no eggs, no larva, a few cells of capped brood. The hive did show signs of deformed wing virus, one of two positive hives for virus out of total 18 hives. I immediately treated the empty hive with OA vapor, hundred plus mite drop from the EMPTY hive.
This hive was a 2 year old double deep Lang. hive 80% capacity with bees and had several frames of capped Honey which most was taken when the bees departed. Apparently, do to the fact there were no eggs, no larva, this was a planned abscond as the queen quit laying in advance of departure. I was planning on treating this hive in another 2 weeks, obliviously I was to late.
Yes they leave behind a smattering of capped brood and large stores of honey and pollen. I would not be surprised if it is related to viruses, varroa, or both. But where they go is a mystery. All I am saying is they don't behave like a swarm so I don't consider it swarming. I cannot answer any of your questions Robo. It could be just a mass suicide for all I know. It is very strange and seemingly self destructive. I'm not sure how one could go about investigating it either.
Quote from: moebees on April 15, 2018, 08:45:45 PM
It could be just a mass suicide for all I know.
That is what I'm leaning torward, kinda. Not so much suicide but mass die off. Bees tend to leave the hive to die and not leave the burden of removing their remains on the rest of the colony. Could it be that the "culprit" (virus, disease, etc) causes death of the queen and the workers slowly get sick and fly off to die? Not like a pesticide poisoning that is quick and the dying bees can only get out the entrance, but a slower death that allows them to fly away.
Quote from: LizzieBee on April 13, 2018, 12:53:43 AM
It's great that you aren't giving up. I'm a beginner so I can't answer all your questions. What type of bees have you been getting? From my research Carniolan bees do well in cold weather. That's the type I got a week ago on Saturday.
LizzieBee
I have tried the Carolina bees but only once
[/quote]
G'day... welcome back Trooper :-))
Soooo... 100% loss?
Any clues in the debris...?...I recall there were moisture troubles
in at least one colony?
Bill
[/quote]
Bill,
Good to be back Bill. It's that darn day job! *wink!*
The only debris I could find were sick looking bees and wax moths in the one. The other just looked like they froze. There were a few wax moths but only under the screened bottom board. You are right. There was mold but only in the hive I built. I only stained it and when the stain went the mold came.
Quote from: cao on April 13, 2018, 01:16:58 AM
I'm glad you haven't given up.
I would say if you got them, use them. With that honey and drawn frames, you shouldn't have to feed your packages much.
CAO,
All in the brood box or should I save a few for the mediums?
Quote from: beepro on April 13, 2018, 05:12:47 AM
Nope, into my 6th year of beekeeping I'm still consider a newbie.
Believe me, me too!I will study some of these tips. A little beyond my skill level at the moment!
Thanks!
AW
Quote from: Acebird on April 13, 2018, 08:27:42 AM
Stop with the packages ...
Acebird,
Already have 2 packages for pick up in 2 weeks. There is a club member selling nucs and I was going to get one but I haven't heard anything. Somebody said there may not be enough of a food source in my area.
Thanks
AW
Quote from: little john on April 13, 2018, 02:19:30 PM
I'm guessing that beekeeping is pretty challenging in your region and appropriate local experience would be invaluable.
Very best of luck for the coming season.
LJ
(*) You can still use the same boxes - simply make an eke of the right height to fit underneath them.
Little John. Good to hear from you again!. It is very challenging. Several club members have lost several hives. some have 4 lost 3, 2 lost one etc. I plan to use the same boxes. Didn't know about the frames because of the diseases, but I froze them. I have to get these girls to stop leaving me!
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 13, 2018, 02:36:35 PM
Why are your bees swarming? If your bees really are swarming every year then I?d remedy that first. A first year hive should not be swarming unless something goes wrong.
Every year every hive! I have sat outside and watched 3 of them swarm. One went to the adjacent tree but it was too high. (I'm afraid of heights albeit 2 feet is too high for me!) One went to the same tree, I had to cut the limb, made a mistake and dropped it. I put as many as I could in but apparently not the queen. They all left the next morning. The other flew way off. I've been told new hives don't swarm but all mine do. I give them plenty of room, they don't start on the next upper frames and they still swarm. I caught a swarm in a trap. 1/2 swarmed again. I combined that with a week hive using the newspaper. They lived but didn't expand and died. I have use queen excluders then didn't use them. I have not tried that excluder on the bottom yet. When I check there are these beautiful queen cells that give me a hint but I don't know what to do when they do that. I haven't destroyed them because somebody on this forum said it's best not to. very puzzling my friend!
Quote from: Acebird on April 13, 2018, 05:35:11 PM
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 13, 2018, 02:36:35 PM
A first year hive should not be swarming unless something goes wrong.
I agree with this which is why he doesn't need to buy more than one hive to solve the problem. He does need to solve the problem though. I suspect he is feeding at the wrong time or for the wrong reason which encourages brood rearing. The hive gets jammed and they go. But that is just a guess.
Hard to pinpoint because sometimes I feed and other hives I don't. That's not good feedback when they all die. I haven't use pollen patties which I now have if I need them. I never see more than a few frames of honey that I leave for the winter. I have a bunch untouched to use again this year. I have switched out a brood frame or two to try to motivate the queen to go to the next level. Didn't work. It didn't work when I put a frame of honey in the empty super for encouragement, didn't work. Helps to have patience for sure!
Quote from: billdean on April 13, 2018, 08:31:09 PM
Flex..... you can get your nuc's or packages here. They have training and will teach you how to manage your hives. I have rarely, if at all had a problem getting package from them to over winter here in Michigan. Carniolan is what I would get.
https://mailchi.mp/turtlebeefarms/honeybees-wow-3-lb-packages-99-up?e=3efdd6a172
Hello again Bill. I just may! Clare can be colder that Perrinton for sure!
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 15, 2018, 11:43:15 PM
CAO,
All in the brood box or should I save a few for the mediums?
I am of the opinion that, if you have drawn comb, use it. I have about 3 boxes of partially filled frames from some of my hives that didn't make it this winter. They will be the first frames that I will use when I make my splits this year. Hopefully the weather will allow me to make some later this week. I've already heard about a couple of swarms in the area. The sooner you get the drawn comb back in hives with bees the sooner you don't have to worry about wax moths and other creatures destroying them.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on April 15, 2018, 06:48:34 AM
I am a long way away from Michigan, but for your location you need to do a " bee feed"/ botanical audit of what flowers when, does it yield pollen and nectar or just one or the other.
I know of one other close who I have been planning to talk to. Our club has a lot of dealings with MSU. I have a booklet of what flowers should be around. Still studying that! :-)
Quote from: Robo on April 15, 2018, 09:22:09 AM
Although I agree with most of the previous comments, I will just add if you have not been treating for varroa mites, that is your biggest problem. Without addressing that, all the other recommendation will be for not.
Robo
Doing it this year. first time
Quote from: Acebird on April 15, 2018, 09:31:59 AM
Mites don't cause swarming or starvation. If he is buying mite bombs he needs to find another supplier.
I haven't used anything yet...
Quote from: capt44 on April 15, 2018, 11:44:49 AM
I don't know if ya'll have a Small Hive Beetle problem in Michigan but we sure do down here.
We have them but that's the only thing I have not had so keep your voice down! LOL!
Quote from: cao on April 16, 2018, 12:37:01 AM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 15, 2018, 11:43:15 PM
CAO,
All in the brood box or should I save a few for the mediums?
I am of the opinion that, if you have drawn comb, use it. I have about 3 boxes of partially filled frames from some of my hives that didn't make it this winter. They will be the first frames that I will use when I make my splits this year. Hopefully the weather will allow me to make some later this week. I've already heard about a couple of swarms in the area. The sooner you get the drawn comb back in hives with bees the sooner you don't have to worry about wax moths and other creatures destroying them.
I pick up my packages in two weeks. It's still snowing here!
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 13, 2018, 02:36:35 PM
Why are your bees swarming? If your bees really are swarming every year then I?d remedy that first. A first year hive should not be swarming unless something goes wrong.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180416/841cf42f860bc588f8bcbb508c77a90e.jpg)
Bush, this is an old pic but I usually get a lot of Queen cells
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 16, 2018, 12:30:46 AM
I never see more than a few frames of honey that I leave for the winter.
You very well may be in an area that won't support honey bees. In your area you are going to need at least two boxes of honey to overwinter and brood up for next season. First question to ask yourself is are the hives growing to critical mass (1 deep packed to hilt with bees, or 2 mediums)? Second question: are the hives getting robbed.
You are now getting packages too early for your area. If they are supplying virgin queens instead of mated queens they are done for. Even with a mated queen it could be iffy. No way to feed and not enough bees to not limit the queen. Hive decides to supercede and progress gets stymied.
If his bees are swarming then I doubt they are starving. From what I gather it sounds like he can?t get his bees to build up into the second box and they swarm. Maybe it?s the frames they don?t like as he indicated in his original post. Have you tried moving up half of the brood combs into the upper box when you add the second? Bees will move up into the second box if you move brood. You can also convince them to draw out a comb if you put an empty frame between brood combs. Of course you don?t want to overextend them when doing this.
When I first started keeping bees I was in an area with a super intense raspberry flow. When the raspberries bloomed my bees would fill every single cell with nectar and swarm. The issue was my lack of honey comb and brood comb. If I had been further along in my beekeeping career I?d just have piled supers on top, however since I was still starting it I was just spinning my wheels. Just another thought.
I am 50 miles from you Flex. I know your area well and I can tell you for certain bee's thrive here. We have maple trees in the spring followed by dandelions, honeysuckle, Blackberrys and one of the most important, Nap Weed as well as others. I have never seen any area around us that did not have lots of goldenrod in the fall also.
Never had a problem getting bee's to move up in any package I have purchased, and to thrive. I have seen packages get honey bound fairly quickly here in our area and cast swarms because of lack of room for the queen to lay. This can happen in early early June especially if your feeding them. If you are going to use drawn comb or if you buy nuc's their going to out grow that first box quickly, at least in 8 frame Mediums. Usually buy the time you can get nuc's here (end of May) the flow has been going for a couple of weeks. I generally only feed my package bees until the flow is on good. Then their pretty capable of building and maintaining the hive on their own. I do watch my package bees carefully and inspect them every 7 days.
One last thing. Varro Mites thrive here! I treat every package of bees after I hive them within the first 4 or 5 days..
Quote from: Acebird on April 16, 2018, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 16, 2018, 12:30:46 AM
I never see more than a few frames of honey that I leave for the winter.
Second question: are the hives getting robbed.
I don't think they are getting robbed. I keep the entrance reducer on. When I feed I use a top feeder in a covered super. Some fights and a few yellow jackets
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 16, 2018, 09:44:04 AM
Have you tried moving up half of the brood combs into the upper box when you add the second?
I have not tried 1/2 of the frames. Iv'e only moved one from each hive and they built a few cells. I have placed a frame of honey in the 2nd super too with no results. I caught a swarm that wasn't one of my own that I was sure I had the queen but they hated the black plastic frames. Had to get rid of those!
Quote from: billdean on April 16, 2018, 12:28:46 PM
I am 50 miles from you Flex. I know your area well and I can tell you for certain bee's thrive here. We have maple trees in the spring followed by dandelions, honeysuckle, Blackberrys and one of the most important, Nap Weed as well as others. I have never seen any area around us that did not have lots of goldenrod in the fall also.
Never had a problem getting bee's to move up in any package I have purchased, and to thrive. I have seen packages get honey bound fairly quickly here in our area and cast swarms because of lack of room for the queen to lay. This can happen in early early June especially if your feeding them. If you are going to use drawn comb or if you buy nuc's their going to out grow that first box quickly, at least in 8 frame Mediums. Usually buy the time you can get nuc's here (end of May) the flow has been going for a couple of weeks. I generally only feed my package bees until the flow is on good. Then their pretty capable of building and maintaining the hive on their own. I do watch my package bees carefully and inspect them every 7 days.
One last thing. Varro Mites thrive here! I treat every package of bees after I hive them within the first 4 or 5 days..
What do you use for your Varro Mites?
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 15, 2018, 11:40:28 PM
G'day... welcome back Trooper :-))
Soooo... 100% loss?
Any clues in the debris...?...I recall there were moisture troubles
in at least one colony?
Bill
Quote
Bill,
Good to be back Bill. It's that darn day job! *wink!*
Heh heh.... all roles in Life must be filled, the altetnative is no
fun at all. Mortifying, actually... hahaahaaa
Quote
The only debris I could find were sick looking bees and wax moths
in the one. The other just looked like they froze. There were a few
wax moths but only under the screened bottom board. You are right.
There was mold but only in the hive I built. I only stained it and when
the stain went the mold came.
If nothing else there is now a hotchpotch of input to work from.
Not to confuse you further but have you considered owning two
modes in Mich. beekeeping.
A "Winter" mode and a "Everything Else" mode?
Bill
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 16, 2018, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: billdean on April 16, 2018, 12:28:46 PM
I am 50 miles from you Flex. I know your area well and I can tell you for certain bee's thrive here. We have maple trees in the spring followed by dandelions, honeysuckle, Blackberrys and one of the most important, Nap Weed as well as others. I have never seen any area around us that did not have lots of goldenrod in the fall also.
Never had a problem getting bee's to move up in any package I have purchased, and to thrive. I have seen packages get honey bound fairly quickly here in our area and cast swarms because of lack of room for the queen to lay. This can happen in early early June especially if your feeding them. If you are going to use drawn comb or if you buy nuc's their going to out grow that first box quickly, at least in 8 frame Mediums. Usually buy the time you can get nuc's here (end of May) the flow has been going for a couple of weeks. I generally only feed my package bees until the flow is on good. Then their pretty capable of building and maintaining the hive on their own. I do watch my package bees carefully and inspect them every 7 days.
One last thing. Varro Mites thrive here! I treat every package of bees after I hive them within the first 4 or 5 days..
What do you use for your Varro Mites?
Oxalic acid / OAV
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 16, 2018, 05:52:33 PM
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 16, 2018, 09:44:04 AM
Have you tried moving up half of the brood combs into the upper box when you add the second?
I have not tried 1/2 of the frames. Iv'e only moved one from each hive and they built a few cells. I have placed a frame of honey in the 2nd super too with no results. I caught a swarm that wasn't one of my own that I was sure I had the queen but they hated the black plastic frames. Had to get rid of those!
Are we still talking about adding a second box or making a split? I?ve never had a hive make a queen when I put some brood frames in a new box above the original. I suppose if you put it above an excluder maybe. If you put brood above when adding a second box they will either occupy the box or just tend to the single frame if their population doesn?t warrant a second box.
I believe that if you learn to control swarming and control mites you will be more successful. Get reading! I also suggest oxalic acid. I build a provap clone this winter and will be using that going forward.
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 17, 2018, 12:12:56 PM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 16, 2018, 05:52:33 PM
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 16, 2018, 09:44:04 AM
Have you tried moving up half of the brood combs into the upper box when you add the second?
I have not tried 1/2 of the frames. Iv'e only moved one from each hive and they built a few cells. I have placed a frame of honey in the 2nd super too with no results. I caught a swarm that wasn't one of my own that I was sure I had the queen but they hated the black plastic frames. Had to get rid of those!
If you put brood above when adding a second box they will either occupy the box or just tend to the single frame if their population doesn?t warrant a second box.
That's what I did. Just pulled one brood frame and placed it in the super above along with other blank frames. They tended to that frame but it did not improve. I haven't tried moving half of them yet.
One frame should work if there is forage and they are in expansion mode.
Quote from: Acebird on April 18, 2018, 10:00:17 AM
One frame should work if there is forage and they are in expansion mode.
I have generally not had issues either, but if he has had issues with swarming despite supering another brood box with a frame a brood something isn?t going as planned. If it were me I?d add more frames above and be more aggressive with checkerboarding empty frames between brood frames while also not overextending my bees.
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 18, 2018, 10:10:27 PM
if he has had issues with swarming despite supering another brood box with a frame a brood something isn?t going as planned.
No argument there. But suppose he is trying to super after they have decide to swarm not before. Then he will see them swarm no matter how he adds the box. We still don't know about his supplier. Is he raising swarming queens because he is selling bees? That is a fast way to make money if you can get your customers to keep coming back.
Ya its also possible that he is adding a second brood box a little late. I seem to recall that he has tried getting packages from a few different places however. If that is indeed that case then I?d say that this is more likely to be a management issue and not a queen issue.
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 19, 2018, 02:16:36 PM
I?d say that this is more likely to be a management issue and not a queen issue.
No matter how you cut it it is a management issue. We are trying to determine what manager is at fault.
Quote from: Bush_84 on April 19, 2018, 02:16:36 PM
Ya its also possible that he is adding a second brood box a little late. I seem to recall that he has tried getting packages from a few different places however. If that is indeed that case then I?d say that this is more likely to be a management issue and not a queen issue.
I got them from three different places three different years. The last year I picked them up locally and I plan to do that again Tuesday. I have placed a super on early and late. The one hive that did ok, had a few frames of honey that I left in the hive for the winter. That one swarmed too but I can't remember if I added the super early or late. I know I fed them sugar water last year. A few hives they would only come up the the super for the food. I thought about investing in a nuk but that may be next year's project. I think treating them this year should help alot.
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 20, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
I think treating them this year should help alot.
It is important to know what your supplier did, does, prior to you picking up the bees. Are you getting a mated queen or not?
Just saying, treating could be the worse thing you could do if they don't need it.
Quote from: Acebird on April 21, 2018, 09:09:25 AM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 20, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
I think treating them this year should help alot.
It is important to know what your supplier did, does, prior to you picking up the bees. Are you getting a mated queen or not?
The latest ones I will instal will be here May 1st. They were arranged by our club and I thought they were local but looks like they are coming from Georgia. The weather delayed them. Throughout the years it has been mail order, Dadant, Brushy Mountain, Kelleys, all mated queens.
This one works for me. Every time I bought a new queen I quickly graft daughters from her. This will allow the local genetics to mix in. Having local bees will help stabilize your hive faster. Overwintering should not be an issue either if you have a healthy bee population without the mites. These are the local adapted bees! Try to get to the 4th generation if you can.
QuoteSee my blog and watch me bumble through starting hives:
So I did.
Very nice website and a whole lot of very nice equipment.
Things that I see:
Entrance feeders, get rid of them. Queen excluders, get rid of them. Inspections, stop doing them. Double layered comb, push the frames together tight. Do not leave empty space in a box. Put all the frames in. Mead making, are you stealing their honey? Stop. Swarming in August and September? Way too much intervention causing the colonies to book as a last ditch effort. Organic gardens and you want to treat? Bees not only bring pesticides to their hive they also bring pesticides to you vegetables.
Take the success you have at fishing and bring it to your hives. They both start with patience.
Quote from: beepro on April 25, 2018, 05:33:19 AM
This one works for me. Every time I bought a new queen I quickly graft daughters from her. This will allow the local genetics to mix in. Having local bees will help stabilize your hive faster. Overwintering should not be an issue either if you have a healthy bee population without the mites. These are the local adapted bees! Try to get to the 4th generation if you can.
I like your approach but with a few concerns.
Depending on the area one is located there may be more non-local stock then local. In our area, they bring in 4000 packages of bees from the south each year. Not to mention all the commercial pollinators we have coming in for apples.
When I first read this I somehow assumed you were talking packages, but after re-reading I see that is not the case. The other concerns where related to package strength, etc....
So do you dispatch your purchased queen after grafting from her? I know a lot of folks would have issue doing that.
To answer your question, no. Keep the bought queens for brood factory supplying your
locally reared queen production hives. If they die then requeen otherwise keep them for another season or 2. Why waste good
resource? But don't let them make the drones. Instead donate drones from the local bee stock. I keep them in small nuc hive.
Each beekeeper's location and bee stocks are unique to their bee environment. After the almonds run the carnis bees are back. Right
before the almonds run they are not near my apiary. Using the Cordovan bees as genetic markers, I'm able to discover this little local
bee secret. During this time is when I get to keep my local stock uncontaminated with their undesirable stock. Also during this time when
they are at the almonds that I rear my own local queens. This way my Italians bees are safe and not diluted with their stock--local carnis is 95%. The
window of opportunity to rear good local Italians queens only happen 2 months out of the year unless I somehow flood my local DCAs with my local
Italians stock. Until then I have to work with what is open during the early Spring days here.
To solve your Southern bee issue you have to either find this window of opportunity like I did or move your hives to an isolated yard to rear your own
local queens. I'm happy that I'm able to maintain my Italians bees this season. If not then I have to find another bee yard to keep my local bees. So have you identify your local queen rearing opportunity yet? Maybe when they move the southern bees away. You have to find out for yourself. Local beekeeping is always a unique situation.
Quote from: beepro on April 13, 2018, 05:12:47 AM
Nope, into my 6th year of beekeeping I'm still consider a newbie. This is because I have not learn all and experimented all on this hobby. As long as I'm still learning and not feel comfortable in keeping the bees alive without much intervention then I'm a newbie.
For your situation I would advise on doing some swarm control to keep the mites to a minimum. To do this take a hive that is about to swarm and brush off all the attaching bees from the cap brood frames into the original hive. Original hive will be fill with the drawn frames without the cap broods. Then donate the cap brood frames into another active hive. This will remove 90% of the mites from the original hive.
In the original hive you will have drawn comb to replace the cap brood frames taken away. Now with the original queen and her bees in place they will restart the colony with new broods in the drawn comb. This will take the mites out of the hive and stop the swarming in the process. The queen will lay new eggs to replenish this colony. If you want a 100% mite free colony then take 1 frame of developing brood about to be cap from another colony without the attaching bees into this hive. All the remaining free running mites will go into these cap broods within a few day. Doing so will remove many of the mites from the hive. Repeat this for other hives as well. Also do a mite check on every bee emergence cycle to give you an idea of the infestation.
When these mite free hives are booming then graft queens from them. Repeat this process for at least 2-3 generation. That means once the new queens are laying choose the one with the most solid laying pattern to graft. Repeat this from the grand daughter queen to source the local bees genetics. Better than the package queens that are treated most of the time. So it does not matter where you source the original package bees from just graft at your location to get the local bees genetics. Without this your package bees will not survive that well in the winter time. Only the local bees can survive your cold and snowy winter!
During the winter time pack this hive with lots of new winter bees to ensure their winter survival. Give them plenty of food like sugar bricks and high protein patty subs for the winter. Put wind proof material around the hive in the winter time. Also try to source the tf queens or survival queens for genetic diversity on your bee yard.
For future expansion you can also use some new drawn comb so add some for them to draw out also.
Never give high protein in winter.
Best use dry pollen substitute in a feeder if they need it.
Winter is the mother of brood breaks why stim brood rearing in dec or jan.
I'm in the north so my winters are longer than most here.
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Hey Flex,
Sorry to hear about your losses and it's good to see you're still swinging! At the sake of repeating a lot of what has been said I'd like to throw a couple thoughts out there.
There's a saying down here in the south. The biggest killers of bees are mites and starvation. I have always used OAV for treating my bees in the late summer to early fall. I vaporize once every seven days for 3-4 times. (probably an overkill) I don't remember the last time I saw a deformed wing. I tweaked Lori's fortified syrup to my liken and found out it is no less than awesome! Thanks Lori - who ever you are :) One of the ingredients is vitamins and electrolytes plus by Agri-labs. This alone does so much for the health of the hive it's hard to believe. A friend of mine looked at it and explained what all those minerals and vitamins did for the workers and for the queen. I started out with 33-35 hives this spring. I sold 13 whole hives, 12 nucs, lost about 10 swarms and now I have 40+ colonies that are packed with bees - except for a few small after swarms. If you can't find Lori's formula let me know. Once I'm on the home computer I'll post my tweak of it. There's got to be something to it. I'm also convinced that I'm in a good area.
Quote from: GSF on April 26, 2018, 01:32:07 PM
Hey Flex,
Sorry to hear about your losses and it's good to see you're still swinging! At the sake of repeating a lot of what has been said I'd like to throw a couple thoughts out there.
There's a saying down here in the south. The biggest killers of bees are mites and starvation. I have always used OAV for treating my bees in the late summer to early fall. I vaporize once every seven days for 3-4 times. (probably an overkill) I don't remember the last time I saw a deformed wing. I tweaked Lori's fortified syrup to my liken and found out it is no less than awesome! Thanks Lori - who ever you are :) One of the ingredients is vitamins and electrolytes plus by Agri-labs. This alone does so much for the health of the hive it's hard to believe. A friend of mine looked at it and explained what all those minerals and vitamins did for the workers and for the queen. I started out with 33-35 hives this spring. I sold 13 whole hives, 12 nucs, lost about 10 swarms and now I have 40+ colonies that are packed with bees - except for a few small after swarms. If you can't find Lori's formula let me know. Once I'm on the home computer I'll post my tweak of it. There's got to be something to it. I'm also convinced that I'm in a good area.
I hope you don't mind my chiming in, but I sure would like that formula!! Sound conviencimg !! Thanks .Phillip Hall
I live in a mild winter area in zone 9b with a semi-desert like condition. The day and night time temp can
be 30-40F degree difference. It is a bit cooler than zone 9a. During our winter I can still raise broods with
stimulate feeding patty subs and sugar bricks. These hives are headed by the late mated Autumn queens. Over here I
can afford to raise the early Spring and late Autumn queens taking advantage of the 2 mini flows we have every season. There is no shortage of queens if I don't keep on killing them on accident. What the OP need is a proven bee program that fit into his local bee environment. In another word find a niche that
will enable his bees to survive the winter there. Without a bee program in place he cannot adjust to his bee environment when the yearly weather fluctuate. As our climate change more and more it will be harder to raise his bees without such a program already in place. My bee program is already set all I have to do is to follow it every season and make adjustment according to our local weather when it changes. Every year it is going to be a bit different from now on. Do you already have a bee program that you can follow successfully each and every year? If not then it is time to think about it more.
Benframed, I'll try to get that to you tonight. Once again I got home and had two swarms to deal with. Although I started the season out with 25-35 extra supers and all the extras, I am now almost down to my last super. I'm having to build tops, inner covers, spacers for feeding, and bottom boards every time I catch a swarm. I'm not complaining - just whining..,
I found it on my ipad. I tried to keep this at an exact science for a couple of years, then I realized close enough is close enough;
1 teaspoon "vitamins and electrolytes plus"(mfd by agrilabs) per 3 or 4 quarts, sometimes more.
1 teaspoon organic apple cider vinegar per quart
1 teaspoon "real" lemon juice per quart
(my wife's measuring spoons)
1 smidgen ascorbic acid per 4-5 quarts
1 pinch citric acid per 4-5 quarts.
water/sugar = 1/1
I've always read don't let your sugar get scorched or it will kill the bees. I mean I've read that a lot. I can't say one way or the other if it's truth. The apple cider vinegar helps adjusts the ph of the sugar water to prevent nosema, the real lemon juice (and maybe the ascorbic acid as well) adds more vit C which I understand helps to keep viruses at bay, and enhances/helps(or something to the effect) the queens egg production. The vitamins and electrolytes plus pretty much provides a phone booth for Clark Kent to change in. From my understanding it's an atomic bomb of health for the bees. With bees it's about numbers and feeling good. They can do much more with a lot of bees in the colonies. However if those bees don't feel a hundred percent they aren't going to perform at a hundred percent. Kinda like when we get a small cold. Hope this helps
Cool, a super charged sugar syrup! I don't feed any vitamin to my bees. They are too overly active already that I
scare they might sting me one day. Do vitamins make the bees too edgy? Some kids on too much sugar will become hyper.