Yesterday I did a brood nest inspection for the first time in 3 weeks. On the inside face of the frame nearest the entrance was a strange looking protrusion of comb. It's not a very nicely drawn frame, so I initially thought nothing of it and was planning on cutting it off, but upon closer investigation I noticed that it was composed of those tiny little semi-hexagonal cells like a queen cell. It was not really peanut-shaped, it was more like vaguely cone shaped, and it was at almost a right angle to the rest of the comb. I unfortunately did not get a picture of it. I saw no other queen cells, or any more of this type of thing in the hive. My question is, are queen cells always nicely peanut shaped, or in an emergency situation, can they be weirdly shaped? Also, do the bees construct those teeny little cells on anything other than queen cells?
I have seen many shapes, most at 90 degrees to the comb, that is in a downward position. Some almost straight out from the comb, some I would call small, while others so large they will not fit in a standard queen cell holder.
Blessings
Like Van I have seen many shapes. The important thing is the inside cell has to be vertical. In the observation hive they often build a qc next to the glass. Due to lack of space they are often small. Sometimes they are in the comb. The bees will also float the larvae from the back of the cell with royal jelly and then build a vertical cell down the face of the comb. This is usually on old comb.
Jim
Sure, they will construct these out of the regular worker cells too. I've
seen them built QCs on different spot on the frame drawing out existing
worker cells. Some will built queen cups hanging from the bottom of the
frame too. Seems like what ever they like they will draw these cups out. They
are not always shape like a peanut as some are V shape or wide bottom rounded
shape also. I wonder what the Q cell will look like when extra RJ is injected into a
2nd day developing larva.
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on June 09, 2018, 03:25:23 PM
I have seen many shapes, most at 90 degrees to the comb, that is in a downward position. Some almost straight out from the comb, some I would call small, while others so large they will not fit in a standard queen cell holder.
Blessings
Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 09, 2018, 06:30:01 PM
Like Van I have seen many shapes. The important thing is the inside cell has to be vertical. In the observation hive they often build a qc next to the glass. Due to lack of space they are often small. Sometimes they are in the comb. The bees will also float the larvae from the back of the cell with royal jelly and then build a vertical cell down the face of the comb. This is usually on old comb.
Jim
Okay, so you guys are saying that the only real requirement is that there is enough space for a
vertical pupa, correct? I.e. the workers and drones are in horizontal cells on the frame, whereas the queens are in vertical cells. I'm really just not sure if this thing was the right shape to condone that. Next time I go in the hive I'll see if I can get a picture of it. That is, as long as a queen hasn't hatched out of it! :wink: This hive has been acting a little hotter than usual lately, and it's making me doubly suspicious about this potentially being a supersedure. I'm also speculating we're in a dearth here though, so it could be just that, although my other hive is acting calm as usual.
"Okay, so you guys are saying that the only real requirement is that there is enough space for a
vertical pupa, correct? "
In a nutshell, yes. (no pun)
The sighting of just one weird structure could just be ambitous
(wonky) brace/bridge comb but you are on it to keep an eye on
it for now. If you wanted to really play safe the queen could be
caged for a few days till this plays out.
On a side note?
Anyone taking bets on the Horn V Howard bout tonite (USA time).
I've got 10 bucks to my fav charity Horn comes up trumps!
Again, no pun harmed in this poast. :-)))
Bill
Quote from: eltalia on June 09, 2018, 11:21:08 PM
The sighting of just one weird structure could just be ambitous
(wonky) brace/bridge comb but you are on it to keep an eye on
it for now.
That was along the lines of what I was thinking.
Same here.
Jim
Alright, so I went into the hive today and got a picture of the suspected queen cell. Do you think it's a queen cell? Regardless of whether it's a queen cell or not, something is definitely wrong with the queen in this hive, if she's there anymore at all. When I went in the hive this morning I saw no eggs, more drones than before, and the hive was not full of bees. Also they aren't drawing out comb anymore. I was unable to pull 3 frames in the brood box because they were getting too aggravated with me, but with the exception of those frames I saw no other potential queen cells, and I was able to pull those frames last week and saw nothing (though 2 of them are cross-combed and not able to be separated, so there's the chance there is something between those two that I can't see). There's still a good bit of capped brood, mostly worker but some drone, and the uncapped larva that are present look healthy and white. The brood pattern looks a little different than before, the capped brood is sort of a U-shaped crescent, with capped honey sort of scooping down into the brood pattern from the top bar, but the pattern is compact with hardly any cells missed. They seem to be backfilling some of the empty brood comb with honey. My previous mentioning of this hive acting testier than usual has continued, with them flying out at me when I just put on a jar of syrup. When in the hive today they seemed almost panicky, reacting very strongly to being smoked, but I had to smoke them more often than usual, and they were louder and just generally seemed more upset. There are still foragers bringing in pollen and nectar, but no where near the traffic level of my other hive, which is thriving and growing like crazy right now. I'm also suddenly not seeing as many hive beetles as I was. I had been catching about 10 in Swiffers weekly, and today there was only 1, and I saw none running about the hive. So here's the questions: Given all that information, do you think that this hive is queenless now? Do you think the thing in the pictures is a queen cell?
I don?t see a queen cell, in either pic, I do see burr comb.
Blessings
Member,
I don't see a queen cell. Since your other hive is booming and bringing in nectar I would say this hive is queenless or you have a virgin queen. Add a frame of brood that has eggs for insurance.
Jim
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on June 15, 2018, 05:02:14 PM
I don?t see a queen cell, in either pic, I do see burr comb.
Blessings
Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 15, 2018, 05:08:49 PM
Member,
I don't see a queen cell. Since your other hive is booming and bringing in nectar I would say this hive is queenless or you have a virgin queen. Add a frame of brood that has eggs for insurance.
Jim
Ok, so it's not a queen cell. Honestly, after seeing it again today, I was pretty sure it was not one, but I've never seen a queen cell before, so I wanted to be sure. I'm going into the thriving hive tomorrow, so I'll take a frame out of there and put it in this hive. Thanks for the help everyone. I wonder what happened to my old queen. I saw eggs last week, but not her, so I guess it's possible something happened to her accidentally during inspection. If I did injure her accidentally though, why didn't they make a new queen, since they had eggs and young brood last week? This seemed to happen pretty fast, at least to me, since they were basically normal last week, so is that indicative that the queen died suddenly? Based on the evidence, what do you guys think could have happened to her, or is it just impossible to know?
You may have queen cells in this hive since you do not know what they look like.
Do a search on queen bee cells to see what they look like.
Something went awry with your attachment Jim - see attached.
@The15th Member
Those eggs and brood disappearing read very much as an LW scenario
developing so do a through examination before doing anything else.
Those crosscombs can be cut through so as to lift the frames out,
regardless of whether you have time to correct it now the frames need to
be examined, guessing at this time is folly. The crosscomb may well own
backfills as honey only so have a plan to mop up the bottom board
or better yet lift the box onto another sitting beside the stack.
Also before you start do allow for where you are in your season
planning schedule and so allow actions for that also in your Plan.
Good Luck!
Bill
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Quote from: eltalia on June 15, 2018, 10:08:34 PM
@The15th Member
Those eggs and brood disappearing read very much as an LW scenario
developing so do a through examination before doing anything else.
Those crosscombs can be cut through so as to lift the frames out,
regardless of whether you have time to correct it now the frames need to
be examined, guessing at this time is folly. The crosscomb may well own
backfills as honey only so have a plan to mop up the bottom board
or better yet lift the box onto another sitting beside the stack.
Also before you start do allow for where you are in your season
planning schedule and so allow actions for that also in your Plan.
Good Luck!
Bill
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by LW scenario. Could you please explain that?
Quote from: The15thMember on June 16, 2018, 12:25:29 AM
Quote from: eltalia on June 15, 2018, 10:08:34 PM
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by LW scenario. Could you please explain that?
LW stands for Laying Worker/s
"Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by LW scenario.
Could you please explain that?"
So it is around 28 days since you saw a general behaviour of that colony you
were happy enough with. Now there is some capped brood, no eggs, no larvae
and the remaining bees appear agro, those are some of the charactetistics
which lead to laying workers taking control of regeneration;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laying_worker_bee
It is unlikely that syndrome is wholly installed just yet but time is slipping by
to thwart it so best action is to determine the presence of a queen or
viable queencells.
In your Plan assume the worst and have a couple of frames of brood
handy, one of them to have same day eggs with young bees on the frame.
Inspect again within four days if you put those frames in.
If the inclusion begins a queen production, good... if not post the outcome
as there is a Plan B.
Bill
So today I took a frame of brood from the thriving hive and put it in the queenless hive. The best frame I could find was about half eggs and young larva and about half capped pupa. Hopefully the girls will make themselves a new queen.
Quote from: The15thMember on June 15, 2018, 07:45:23 PM
I saw eggs last week, but not her,
The eggs or larvae might have been drones. I would deem this hive as a LW hive and just trash it. Make a split from your other.
So I did an inspection today and checked on the queenless hive that was given a frame of eggs and young brood a week ago. They did not seem to be making queen from it (no evidence of queen cups), and the hive still appears to be queenless (not full of bees, still not drawing, and no eggs). I gave them another frame of eggs and brood from my big hive (which has exploded in size lately), to give them another chance, and at least try to prevent laying workers with the open brood. What do you guys think I should do? Should I keep giving them the chance to make a queen, or should I purchase a queen for them?
Member,
What you are doing is probably the best insurance either way.
When you saw the eggs, were they in the bottom of the cell (queen laid them) or on it he sides (laying worker).
Was there more than one egg in each cell. If they are on the bottom of the cells, this indicates a new queen.
Jim
JMO, if a hive is queenless and you gave them the right aged larvae and they didn't make queen cells then the hive is too far gone and not worth any more resources. In my opinion it is better to use the resources for a split.
Quote from: The15thMember on June 23, 2018, 02:53:17 PM
So I did an inspection today and checked on the queenless hive that was given a frame of eggs and young brood a week ago. They did not seem to be making queen from it (no evidence of queen cups), and the hive still appears to be queenless (not full of bees, still not drawing, and no eggs). I gave them another frame of eggs and brood from my big hive (which has exploded in size lately), to give them another chance, and at least try to prevent laying workers with the open brood. What do you guys think I should do? Should I keep giving them the chance to make a queen, or should I purchase a queen for them?
Michael Bush always recommends a frame of young brood for 3 weeks in a row. I think that is pretty good advice.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 23, 2018, 07:32:18 PM
Member,
What you are doing is probably the best insurance either way.
When you saw the eggs, were they in the bottom of the cell (queen laid them) or on it he sides (laying worker).
Was there more than one egg in each cell. If they are on the bottom of the cells, this indicates a new queen.
Jim
The last time I saw eggs they were properly laid, with 1 egg in the bottom of each cell and I believe no skipped cells. I am currently seeing no eggs.
Quote from: Acebird on June 17, 2018, 09:54:51 AM
Quote from: The15thMember on June 15, 2018, 07:45:23 PM
I saw eggs last week, but not her,
The eggs or larvae might have been drones. I would deem this hive as a LW hive and just trash it. Make a split from your other.
Quote from: Acebird on June 24, 2018, 08:40:45 AM
JMO, if a hive is queenless and you gave them the right aged larvae and they didn't make queen cells then the hive is too far gone and not worth any more resources. In my opinion it is better to use the resources for a split.
I'm personally not ready to give up on them yet, but I'm curious as to why you are. Why do you feel that they are too far gone?
Quote from: moebees on June 24, 2018, 12:17:52 PM
Michael Bush always recommends a frame of young brood for 3 weeks in a row. I think that is pretty good advice.
That does seem like a reasonable amount of time. I'll probably go with that. I guess I'll start putting out feelers for a replacement queen in case they don't make one.
I'd also like to mention that I went outside just now and this hive was doing something. I initially thought it was orienting, but they were really loud. The bees would run out of the entrances and take to the air, and they weren't doing that sort of lazy circling that orienting bees do. They were flying around in sort of big zig-zags, and some of them may have been flying away. They settled down after a few minutes, but I'm not sure if they all came back to the hive. Any thoughts as to what was going on?
You have already given this hive too much time and chances of making a new queen. With not that many
bees, at this point I would recommend a combine with another queen right hive. If you figure the time for this
hive to make another queen and the time has passed then it is time to make a new split from your booming hive.
Split the booming hive to make new queen. Then do a combine on this hive and the booming hive. This way you will
reset the time so that they cannot turn into a LWs hive. This hive + booming hive = one hive. New split from booming hive = a new queen hive.
Of course, you can always buy a mated laying queen for a faster process.
IMO since you have given them 2 frames of brood then I would give them another next week(or at least plan to). They might start a queen cell with the second frame that you gave them. I have done the brood frame for three weeks before and it does work(I'm doing it now with a hive). Whether you spend the resources or not is up to you. I have also just dumped out a hive earlier this year. I think that it depends on how many bees are in the hive and if you have another hive that can spare the brood. I wish you luck on the hive.
Ok guys, this hive is now acting really weird. I went out to this hive with my sister at about 8:00 this evening to put in a jar of syrup. (For those of you who saw my questions concerning my rather sever reaction to getting stung yesterday, don't worry, my sister fed them tonight. :wink:) It was getting dark and it was drizzling. My big hive was acting settled for the evening, bearding, some washboarding, with an occasional straggler returning from foraging. The queenless hive however had bees flying around, some coming and going, maybe 10-15 in the air in front of the hive at any given time. The hive sounded louder than normal for this time of day. Some of the bees that were leaving were seemingly beelining, but there were also a few bees just aimlessly flying around in my yard, like they didn't know what to do with themselves. This is going to sound weird, but I swear I saw I bee leave the upper entrance carrying something that looked like another bee. Why would they be leaving the hive at night in the rain!? What do you think is going on?
Member,
The bees were cleaning out the hive. There may have been an attempted robbing and they are removing the dead bees. Queen less hives are prime candidates for robbing. A hive with a feeder is also a prime candidate for robbing. By the way, the first thing the robbers try to do is kill the queen.
Why are you putting feed on at night and worse yet, in the rain? All of the field bees are in the hive, bored and they are not happy with the hive being opened. If you have top feeders with a screen you can add feed any time.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 25, 2018, 08:33:23 AM
Member,
The bees were cleaning out the hive. There may have been an attempted robbing and they are removing the dead bees. Queen less hives are prime candidates for robbing. A hive with a feeder is also a prime candidate for robbing. By the way, the first thing the robbers try to do is kill the queen.
Why are you putting feed on at night and worse yet, in the rain? All of the field bees are in the hive, bored and they are not happy with the hive being opened. If you have top feeders with a screen you can add feed any time.
Jim
Oh, no, I'm just feeding through the hole in the inner cover, I know not to open the hive in those conditions unless there is some sort of emergency. Sorry, I probably should have mentioned how I was feeding them.
I've been concerned about the potential of robbing, given the strength of the other hive. I did mention witnessing this earlier in the day:
Quote from: The15thMember on June 24, 2018, 04:57:51 PM
I'd also like to mention that I went outside just now and this hive was doing something. I initially thought it was orienting, but they were really loud. The bees would run out of the entrances and take to the air, and they weren't doing that sort of lazy circling that orienting bees do. They were flying around in sort of big zig-zags, and some of them may have been flying away. They settled down after a few minutes, but I'm not sure if they all came back to the hive. Any thoughts as to what was going on?
Do you think that could have been robbing or post-robbing behavior? I didn't see bees moving from hive to hive or fighting, so I'm pretty sure there was not robbing going on while I was watching, but it's possible that I only went outside after the incident was mostly over. I'm going to see if I can get a robbing screen, but in the meantime, what should I do to try and keep the possibility of robbing to a minimum?
I have another question for you guys, I'm seriously considering getting a queen for this hive, since a supplier near me has queens right now, and I feel like that would be the simplest solution to the problem. In light of the fact that I'm trying to be treatment free, is it a bad idea to purchase a queen from an apiary that treats?
Member,
To stop the robbing, remove the food. Going into a hive can also cause robbing.
Why are you feeding? Are you in a dearth? Is there no honey in this hive?
If you buy a queen from a breeder that treats the bees, you will need to treat that hive because they do not know how to take care of themselves.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 25, 2018, 02:37:11 PM
Member,
To stop the robbing, remove the food. Going into a hive can also cause robbing.
Why are you feeding? Are you in a dearth? Is there no honey in this hive?
If you buy a queen from a breeder that treats the bees, you will need to treat that hive because they do not know how to take care of themselves.
Jim
I was just feeding them because I figured they were in a weakened state and I should help them out. I just went and took the jar off. It was still half full and the jar I took off yesterday was about 1/3 full. Is that a good indicator that they were not robbed?
You don't have to treat if you removed the mite infested brood frames into another strong hive.
After this hive is clean then you don't have to worry about the mites that much. You will see them at
each new bees emergency cycle.
Also, when the hive is weakening, the foragers and bees are dying without many new bees for replacement. At this
moment I would get them a new mated queen. This is the fastest way to keep the hive going because it will take one
month to get the new bees in unless you put in cap brood frames from the strong hive without the attaching bees for
the new queen. Yes, definitely get them a new mated queen. Then you can make splits again later on.
Member,
The amount of feed they emptied may or may not be an indicator. I very seldom feed due to robbing problems.
How many boxes are on this hive? The best thing you can do for this hive is to reduce the space they have to protect. How heavy is this hive. If it has a lot of honey I would not bee feeding it.
Jim
How many frames do the bees cover in this hive? If its less than five I would consider downsizing to a nuc box. Best to get a queen asap. Clock is ticking. By the time new queen is accepted and starts laying you are probably looking at 24 days minimum before new bees emerge.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 25, 2018, 11:30:03 PM
Member,
The amount of feed they emptied may or may not be an indicator. I very seldom feed due to robbing problems.
How many boxes are on this hive? The best thing you can do for this hive is to reduce the space they have to protect. How heavy is this hive. If it has a lot of honey I would not bee feeding it.
Jim
They are in 2 mediums currently. At last check (Saturday) they had a decent amount of honey, and there are still foragers coming in and out, some with pollen as well. I wish I'd made better notes when I went in there on Saturday as far as what was on what frames, but I had been hoping to just take a quick peek and see a queen cell on the brood frame I'd given them, so I wasn't really in full inspection mode, and didn't take very good notes. If I remember correctly though, they had a decent amount stored, and they were backfilling the empty brood combs with more nectar too, so they are probably alright. Unless of course they were robbed on Sunday.
Quote from: Dustymunky on June 25, 2018, 11:35:58 PM
How many frames do the bees cover in this hive? If its less than five I would consider downsizing to a nuc box. Best to get a queen asap. Clock is ticking. By the time new queen is accepted and starts laying you are probably looking at 24 days minimum before new bees emerge.
I don't have a nuc box, but I could get them down to 1 medium if I had to. When I was in there on Saturday, the population was way more than 5 frames worth of bees, and the 2 brood frames from the big hive that I gave them were approximately 1/2 capped worker and then 1/3 capped worker, so they have had a little bit of a population boost from that. They did undergo some sort of disturbance on Sunday though, and if it was robbing, I don't know what that could have done to the population either.
I'll probably go out and do a heft test later, although I have never done that before, so I don't know how heavy they were, and I don't know how much of a gage it will give me. But at least if the hive is really light, I'll know.
I did a heft test yesterday and honestly the hive seemed really pretty heavy. Obviously I don't have a good gage having no comparison, and I am also a total wimp when it comes to lifting things :cheesy: but it seemed heavy, like I was having trouble lifting it with only one hand. I was also encouraged by the amount of traffic coming and going from the hive yesterday afternoon, which was really quite substantial.
If the weight is noticeable then there is honey in it. If there was not honey in it you would have gotten that ah oh feeling.
HOORAY!! They are making queens!! :grin: I went into the hive today and there were 8 queen cells on the frame of brood I gave them! I didn't want to screw around with the frame so I didn't inspect them super closely, but they appeared to be capped already. :happy:
Now comes the hard part....waiting. I would say leave them alone for at least 3 weeks. 1 for the capped queen cells to hatch, 1 for the queen to take her mating flights, and 1 for her to start laying good.
What CAO said x2
At this point, I would switch to plan B.
In case that the virgin is MIA on her mating flights, I would have a back up queen. To do this I would cut out 2 of the largest
QCs from this frame and start another nuc hive. This will increase the chance of a mated queen. The more you can make
mated queens, the more successful you will be. Then combine the mated queen hive with the queen less hive(s.) I would certainly not put all
my eggs in one basket!
Quote from: cao on June 30, 2018, 02:35:26 PM
Now comes the hard part....waiting. I would say leave them alone for at least 3 weeks. 1 for the capped queen cells to hatch, 1 for the queen to take her mating flights, and 1 for her to start laying good.
Thanks for the heads up on that, cao. I knew not to mess with them for 2 weeks, but I didn't think about the fact that she wouldn't start laying right away.
Quote from: beepro on July 01, 2018, 04:48:11 AM
At this point, I would switch to plan B.
In case that the virgin is MIA on her mating flights, I would have a back up queen. To do this I would cut out 2 of the largest
QCs from this frame and start another nuc hive. This will increase the chance of a mated queen. The more you can make
mated queens, the more successful you will be. Then combine the mated queen hive with the queen less hive(s.) I would certainly not put all
my eggs in one basket!
Interesting. I hadn't thought about that at all. How necessary is it to do something like that? I feel like I'd rather not do something so invasive. Being such a novice, I would be concerned about doing something wrong and possibly damaging some of the queen cells. I also do not have a nuc box, all I have is mediums, but maybe that doesn't matter. The other thing is, if I do not need the backup queen, what would I do with her then, would I start another hive? I do see your point though, about having a backup in case something goes wrong. What is the likelihood the virgin queen could have something happen to her on a mating flight?
Member,
What is the likelihood the virgin queen could have something happen to her on a mating flight?
A lot. I have lost a lot of queens to predators during mating flights.
I have seen virgin queens in my observation hive and have had them leave and not make it back.
Jim
Quote from: The15thMember on July 01, 2018, 08:04:04 PM
What is the likelihood the virgin queen could have something happen to her on a mating flight?
In my area, I have better luck with the queens making it back earlier in the season. This year has been good for me. I've made about forty splits/nucs in early to mid May and have had 90-95% success with the queen making it back. This late in the year I would estimate that it would be closer to 75%.
beepro's backup plan is a good one if you have the equipment handy and are comfortable cutting out queen cells. I still don't like cutting out queen cells and don't have much success doing it. I make all my splits by the frame(no matter how many queen cells are on them). I would suggest that a nuc box or two should be on your wish list. I think that a nuc box should be standard equipment for every new beekeeper.
Jim it right. I rear queens from early Jan to mid-Oct here in a semi-desert bee environment. Very often I have MIA virgins, especially when there is a creek nearby with dragonflies all over during the hot summer months. I say I lose 25% of the virgins that did not make it back from their mating flights. Some bird species also prey on these queens as well. Still the 75% made up for the loss.
To me it is 100% necessary to deal with this situation if I don't want to do a combine or having a LWs hive later on. I've learn to make more QCs and mating nucs than needed just in case some did not make it back. So for 4 hives that I want, I will make 9 QCs and mating nucs. With limited hive space like you I put these QCs in a homemade small fridge incubator. Now I can choose the most robust queen for the mating nucs.
Cutting out the QCs is easy enough. I simply use a sharp razor blade to slice through the side comb close to the QC. Then use my thumb and index finger to loosen the cell grabbing by the plastic cup rocking it side-by-side. The trick is not to press the plastic cell cup too deep into the comb on a graft. On a natural comb cell, it is better not to use the plastic foundation sheet so that cutting out the cell is much easier. Just slice it all the way through the comb when cutting out the cell.
Some years I have more success. For that I either put an ads on CL for the local queen sale or make nucs to overwinter them for next Spring hive expansion or dead out replacement. This will lessen the need to hunt for the early Spring queens as they are hard to come by then. Early Spring queens are always in demand here!
QCs in incubator cooking now: http://imgbox.com/Nme5RTr5
Hmmm.... Okay, I guess the question is, could I do this procedure without a nuc box? I will look around and see if I could get one, but I honestly don't know if I could obtain one in time (without paying a ridiculous amount for shipping, that is). I do have all the components to essentially put together a single medium hive, but that's it.
My other question is, if I were to decide to not do anything, and just leave all the queen cells in, and if something did go wrong and I lost the virgin during her mating flight, at that point could I just purchase a queen, or would the hive be too far gone?
Quote from: The15thMember on July 02, 2018, 12:54:43 PM
My other question is, if I were to decide to not do anything, and just leave all the queen cells in, and if something did go wrong and I lost the virgin during her mating flight, at that point could I just purchase a queen, or would the hive be too far gone?
Yes you could just buy a mated queen if yours doesn't make it back. Would it be worth it? That depends on how many bees are left. If you have at least a box of bees than I would think it would be worth while. Remember that you have brood hatching out on the frame with the queen cells so you will still have some young bees and you could also add more brood from your other hive later if needed.
If you really want to make a nuc with your medium box you can just put a follower board or even some blocks to fill up the extra space.
This is just my opinion but I would just wait(the hardest part of beekeeping), and let the bees do what they do.
Quote from: cao on July 02, 2018, 02:29:11 PM
Yes you could just buy a mated queen if yours doesn't make it back. Would it be worth it? That depends on how many bees are left. If you have at least a box of bees than I would think it would be worth while. Remember that you have brood hatching out on the frame with the queen cells so you will still have some young bees and you could also add more brood from your other hive later if needed.
If you really want to make a nuc with your medium box you can just put a follower board or even some blocks to fill up the extra space.
This is just my opinion but I would just wait(the hardest part of beekeeping), and let the bees do what they do.
Great, thank you so much, that's basically what I was hoping someone would tell me. I appreciate knowing that there's a chance something could go wrong, but I feel like my lack of experience makes tampering with the situation more dangerous, and there is still a 75% chance that nothing will go wrong. Coupled with the fact that I don't actually have the necessary equipment, I really just think I feel more comfortable letting the situation go. Thanks to beepro for bringing the situation to my attention, I'm glad to know that this is something I have the option to do, and I will probably try it in the future when I am better equipped. I'd also just like to generally thank everyone who has been helping me out with this whole issue, I'd be nowhere without all your help. Especially Jim, Maker of Sawdust, I think you've answered every question I've asked on this thread!
You do realize that we will expect a followup on how this turns out in 3 weeks. :grin:
Member,
As mentioned, the easiest way to make a Nuc with your medium box is to use a follower board. An easy way to make one is to just cut a thick piece of insulation to the size of a frame. Another way is to take one of your frames and staple a piece of cardboard or better yet, a piece of plastic sign board on both sides of a frame. This way as the hive grows, you can just keep moving it out until they fill the box.
Jim
It is hard for new beekeeper to experiment when their resources are limited when starting out. I'm trying to
expand my hive numbers now. So basically after the virgin emerged from the incubator, I just took the laying queen in to
another nuc hive using bee resources from a booming hive. This is a 2 story deep nuc hive she was in.
Then put a QE in between the 2 nuc boxes and in each box put a virgin queen inside. The top box will be a 1.5" hole entrance
opening for the virgin to take her mating flights. I will use a 3" hive top cover to drill the hole in. Since the virgins are from the same batch of cells from the same breeder queen, this experiment should work. If not at least the bees can choose their own strongest queen. The virgins still need to take their mating
flights to see which one will return. At least this will give me a 50/50% chance of one making it back mated.
This is the time that using a QE is worth it!
Quote from: cao on July 02, 2018, 04:32:29 PM
You do realize that we will expect a followup on how this turns out in 3 weeks. :grin:
Well obviously! :cheesy:
Quote from: beepro on July 02, 2018, 07:34:18 PM
It is hard for new beekeeper to experiment when their resources are limited when starting out. I'm trying to
expand my hive numbers now. So basically after the virgin emerged from the incubator, I just took the laying queen in to
another nuc hive using bee resources from a booming hive. This is a 2 story deep nuc hive she was in.
Then put a QE in between the 2 nuc boxes and in each box put a virgin queen inside. The top box will be a 1.5" hole entrance
opening for the virgin to take her mating flights. I will use a 3" hive top cover to drill the hole in. Since the virgins are from the same batch of cells from the same breeder queen, this experiment should work. If not at least the bees can choose their own strongest queen. The virgins still need to take their mating
flights to see which one will return. At least this will give me a 50/50% chance of one making it back mated.
This is the time that using a QE is worth it!
That sounds interesting. How do the bees react to having 2 queens in the same box? Are the workers from the same hive as the breeder queen as well?
The breeder queen got moved to her own little nuc box. So yes, I'm using bee resources from the same breeder queen's hive. Nothing wrong with that as long as you give them enough time after dequeening. This will also give them a brood break.
"How do the bees react to having 2 queens in the same box?"
The 2 queens and all their workers, guard bees, and drones all live very happily together. On a recent mating nuc hive check, I found one virgin and one laying mother queen. See it here at http://imgbox.com/TCK0Rrqm
When resources are limited, too much growth, you have to improvise with creative ideas. Now which one you think is the virgin and laying queen (left or right?)
Quote from: beepro on July 06, 2018, 06:29:57 PM
Now which one you think is the virgin and laying queen (left or right?)
Yeah, a quiz! (I'm weirdly academic.) Hmmm.... I think the left one is the virgin and the right one is the laying queen. I think that the right one's abdomen looks larger. Also, this could just be the lighting or angle, but the right queen seems to have less hair on her thorax, does that have anything to do with it?
HOORAY!! It worked. :grin: Oh yeah! I saw me a queen in the hive today, and eggs and little larvae too! On the frame of brood they'd been given all the queen cells were busted open. I was going through the top box and looking for eggs, and the comb on the frame I was holding is pretty dark, and I wasn't seeing anything, and I was about to put it back when I noticed a little patch of cells with shiny royal jelly in the bottom. So I backlit it with the sun again and took a closer look and I saw eggs too! Then I pulled up the next frame and I was scanning one side and my sister was scanning the other, and suddenly my sister goes, "I see her!" and I'm like, "Where?!" and I tipped the frame over a little too fast and the whole frame went "Buzz!", and then there she was. She looks great, got a big abdomen, she's striped unlike my other queen, who's abdomen is basically solid orange. The hive also seems good. I was afraid that the population would be really reduced, but honestly it was pretty full of bees. I'M SO HAPPY!
Quote from: The15thMember on July 07, 2018, 02:53:37 PM
Quote from: beepro on July 06, 2018, 06:29:57 PM
Now which one you think is the virgin and laying queen (left or right?)
Yeah, a quiz! (I'm weirdly academic.) Hmmm.... I think the left one is the virgin and the right one is the laying queen. I think that the right one's abdomen looks larger. Also, this could just be the lighting or angle, but the right queen seems to have less hair on her thorax, does that have anything to do with it?
Hey, does anyone know if I got the answer right here? I'm just curious. :embarassed:
Thanks for the update. Glad to see that it worked for you. Sometimes the hardest part of keeping bees is the waiting.
The queen in the right has attendants, that would be my guess as the laying queen. The queen in the left has only a single attendant.
My guess is they are both mated queens. The one with more attendants is probably a little more mature.
When I have virgin queens in my observation hive, the bees pretty much ignore them. It is like they are just another bee until they are mated. The second one may not be laying yet or very little.
Jim