Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

Well I took the plunge and over the last few week or so I picked up all the parts to build a vaporizer. I went high tech and incorporated a thermal 350 degree shutoff switch and indicator light just because it seemed like a good idea. Just got it done and it seems like just in time.
  I've been monitoring the mite drop on my hives and over the last week or so hive #3 has shown a sudden increase in mites. I checked today and after only 24 hours the hive showed a count of 6 live mites crawling around on the bottom tray along with another 6 or 8 dead ones.
After a test run just to make sure the vaporizer works I treated all five of my hives hitting #3 first. I guess it is working, after only six hours the mite drop for #3 is already over two dozen.
  Would it be worth treating #3 a second time in the middle of the week or should I just stay with the recommended weekly treatment for three weeks which is how I'm planning to treat the rest of the yard. Just trying not to make any mistakes that have already been done.
  I'll try to post a couple pictures of my DIY vaporizer when I get a chance.
 

I've read that study been done, after the oav treatment under a microscope the bee scientist can see the
tiny holes burned into the bee's exoskeleton.   The result is a shorten lifespan bee.   I will never use oav again otherwise I
would use my homemade oav invention under the hive to burn it in.  Now I use an IPM method to remove the mites entirely.
Because some mites are still inside the cap broods, if not done right according to the timing of newly emerged bees with the
attaching mites on, the entire hive may crash over this winter.    There are some who miss the timing of treatment resulted in a
dead out.   Time it out!

Since OAV has been used in Europe for years although I understand your concern I don't think it is as big of a concern as you think it is. I was a treatment free beekeeper for years with a yard of 4 or 5 hives but had a major kill from both mites and SHB's which made me decide to go back to treating as needed. OAV has been shown to be one of the more effective and least harmful mite treatments currently approved which is why I have gone that route.  Thanks for your comments on performing a brood break but currently it is not part of my management plans.
  I'll follow the standard procedure for OAV and hit the hives weekly for three weeks.
As an edit, It seems that Integrated Pest Management or IPM has gone by the wayside over the last few years. Instead single pest management  practices have become predominate. I've seen it in the local club which is pushing heat treatment but doesn't mention OAV and on different sites that push the flavor of the month. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but there appears to be a wide enough selection of treatment options which could be combined  as IPM  for almost total mite control and elimination.
  Beepro, you mentioned potential damage to the exoskeleton of the bees due to OAV treatments and advocate brood breaks instead. I didn't know that it was a potential problem but which would be more harmful for the hive, the loss of two weeks of brood production or the loss of a few bees due to exposure to OAV?

I'm talking about the timing of using oav.  It has nothing to do with the loss of 2 weeks of brood production or the number of bees loss due to the oav treatment. Using oav should not stop the queen from laying.  As for how many young bees will be burn by the acid I cannot count them yet.

If the timing is right then at each bee emergence cycle the mites will be exposed.  If you treat while majority of the mites are still inside the cap broods then the mites will still be there after the 3 weeks of treatment.  So you must time it right.  I'm not against any form of chemical treatment.  Beekeepers can do whatever they want to care for their bees.  I've also seen using regressed cells and mite biting/mauling bees that can resist the mites.  So far I've found 3 different sources with such bees.  Their queens are a lot different than the ones I raised here.  Smaller and more compact queens.

While using oav will not crash the hives completely it will exposed the newly emerged bees to the acid.  And we all know that acids will burn.  This will shorten the bee's life. During the Autumn as opposed to the Spring hive expansion, the bees will contract their brood nest ready for the coming winter.  If there aren't enough young bees to carry the hives over then next Spring you might not have anymore bees left.  If the oav treatment is not done correctly then the mites are still there on the following Spring. 
So whatever you do make sure to time it right. 

Beepro, thanks for the clarification, I'll keep it in mind as I develop a long range treatment plan and try to work a brood break into my schedule. As I said before I'm transitioning from treatment free which worked till I got hit with SHB bombs one summer and lost all my mite resistant stock. After that the the bees I purchased from local commercial operators didn't seem to have the mite resistance I was used to and my old style of beekeeping just didn't work any more. I had to use Apivar last fall as a emergency measure but realized there are better treatment options out there which is why I've gone with OAV.
  So far hive #3 was the only one with any significant pre treatment mite drop, 14 in a 24 hour period with 6 of them alive. The post treatment drop so far has been 165 after 24 hours and another 100 after 48 hours for #3. The rest of the hives are only showing 10 to 20 mites after 48 hours so it appears #3 has a problem and needs monitoring after the course of treatments.  I'll keep posting results of my treatment so others can follow if it was successful or not. 

72 hour update on hive #3 - 150 mites counted on the sticky board. The other 3 treated hives have only eight to ten mites at 72 hours.

There is only one apiary that I know of that claimed their bees can kill the mites and handle the SHB also.  On you tube vids I've
seen one bee carried the SHB off its hive.  So both the mites resistant and SHB carrying bees are out there.  Maybe it is time that you do some research to
find those bees.   I would if I'm in your situation.  For now do what you can to ensure their survival.  Next Spring you can requeen if you can find better bees to
keep. 

I'm sticking with the OAV treatment right now I'm getting a good mite kill with only one treatment and will follow through with the recommended two more treatments and then treat again come early spring. If I need to perform a second OAV on #3 hive this fall I will. I also have access to a thermal mite killer which is supposed to be cutting edge for mite and SHB control. I'm not interested in returning to treatment free at this time and will work with what genetics I already have in my yard, re-queening is not in my long term plan unless AHB genes show up.  I've never had any luck with mail order queens and have found a lot of the breeder claims to be exaggerated.
 
Beepro, I've identified a mite problem with one hive and have taken accepted corrective action which is working according to the mite kill I've seen. I'm not in panic mode about the mites or worried about "My Situation" I was just asking advice about OAV use.

I'll continue to post the mite kill from #3 for the duration of the treatment plan.

Very well, carry on!

Going to daily counts, mite drop from # 3 after 4 days was 130 mites. all the other hives are still at below 10 per day. Will #3 retreat Saturday.

Beeboy, good for you, take care of the bees.  You will notice mite drop for over a week.  Your bees will be more healthy, have a better spring build up.  I talk from personal experience, but there is so much research, bonafied research by impressive scientists.  I read an article, 18 pages, detailed studies covering 18 months and took into account the tiniest details to provide an accurate assessment of OAV.  If you want the article I can post the title.  But consider there are many, very many articles covering the benefits of OAV.

Just a note, I have full respect and admiration for those that do not treat.  I take a different path and treat.  Treating or not treating both camps wish/want the best for the bees.  Blessings to the beekeepers.

Day 5 mite drop is 110 for hive #3. Some of the bees in my other hives have decided to gather under the SBB and are cleaning off the tray which pretty much makes any accurate count impossible. I'll keep monitoring and posting info on hive 3.
  I'm surprised that a 24 hour count pre treatment of only 14 mites is showing such a heavy infestation in #3.  Mite drop so far is at 655 for a strong double deep and hasn't slowed down yet. Guessing at 30,000 bees per deep the total population would be at 60K and with just the mite drop numbers the hive is already over a 1% infection rate. 
  Van, thanks for the attaboy, I've done extensive reading on OAV and varroa mites along with digesting graphs and treatment methods but haven't found much info on the actual mite drops after treatment which is why I'm posting the numbers on hive 3. I'm hoping the actual numbers can help someone understand what is happening after a OAV treatment. 
  Definitely going to retreat this weekend since the daily drop is still high and continue posting the sticky board count through the course of the treatments.
 

Quote from: Beeboy01 on August 23, 2018, 10:34:46 PM
Day 5 mite drop is 110 for hive #3. Some of the bees in my other hives have decided to gather under the SBB and are cleaning off the tray which pretty much makes any accurate count impossible. I'll keep monitoring and posting info on hive 3.
  I'm surprised that a 24 hour count pre treatment of only 14 mites is showing such a heavy infestation in #3.  Mite drop so far is at 655 for a strong double deep and hasn't slowed down yet. Guessing at 30,000 bees per deep the total population would be at 60K and with just the mite drop numbers the hive is already over a 1% infection rate. 
  Van, thanks for the attaboy, I've done extensive reading on OAV and varroa mites along with digesting graphs and treatment methods but haven't found much info on the actual mite drops after treatment which is why I'm posting the numbers on hive 3. I'm hoping the actual numbers can help someone understand what is happening after a OAV treatment. 
  Definitely going to retreat this weekend since the daily drop is still high and continue posting the sticky board count through the course of the treatments.

Good job Beeboy01 keep up the good work and please keep us posted....

Here's a followup, Day 6 mite drop 135, day 7 mite drop 110 which brings the total to 900 in a week. I'm starting to see some lighter brown, coffee with milk colored mites on the sticky board along with dark brown mature mites which leads me to think I'm getting the mites as they hatch out. Starting to wonder just how bad an infestation #3 actually has, after a week the mite drop hasn't slowed down at all. Treated the entire yard again and changed some things around so I can use sticky boards on the other hives for monitoring.
  Wasn't thinking while breaking down a hive and dumped a load of bees directly on my shoes and picked up eight or so stings on my ankles, just glad they didn't crawl up my pant legs ;). Finished the day with everything duc taped and in the rain.
  More daily counts to follow, I'll try to include the other hives if the sticky boards work.
 

Day one after second treatment, hive #3 has a 200 mite drop. The other three hives in my yard had 4 or 5 mites or less.

Day two after second treatment, hive #3 had an increased mite drop of 250. Just a small 3 or 4 mite drop with the other hives.

Day three after the second treatment, hive #3 mite drop of 200, nothing noticeable with the other hives.

Day four after second treatment, hive #3 mite drop of 125, maybe I've broken the mite growth curve but it is still too early to tell. No changed with the other hives.

Day five after second treatment, hive #3 mite drop of 110. Nothing noticeable with the other hives.

Day six after second treatment, hive #3 mite drop of 120. 

Here's a picture  of my wand set up, [attachment=0][/attachment] The heating block is made out of 1/2 inch aluminum plate, the heater element is a Auto zone 1107 diesel glow plug and the high temp switch came from Allied Electronics on line. The switch turns off at 350 degrees and resets at 320. The wand takes about 3 1/3 minutes to reach full heat and shut off. I hard wired all the connections just to prevent any voltage drop on the spade connectors. The main leads were a set of jumper cables I picked up at a thrift store,  they are over kill but the price was right at $5.00.

Day seven after second treatment, hive #3 mite drop of 85.

I gave #3 the third and last treatment after today's count. Since I'm not seeing any mite drop in the other hives I decided not to give them the third treatment.

Hope this has been informative.

Here's a picture of the wand's head, had to post a second time due to the file size limitations.[attachment=0][/attachment]

Very impressive.  I like the temperature control.  In the first photo I see a Duracell battery.  What is that, exactly.  Does it power through a number of uses without recharging the battery?  What keeps me from using OAV is having to have a car battery to power it.  I wonder why no one has come up with a way to power one with household current.

Maybe I should have asked HAS anybody found a way to power with house current?  Looks like a step-down transformer would do the job.

The battery is out of a camper and is also used for my boat and emergency generator. I just recharge it after using it and have run 10 treatments on it so far with no noticeable power drop.
   I can't see any reason that a 12 volt step down transformer couldn't be used to power the wand. It would need to be a pretty beefy step down transformer depending on the heater rod used along with a decent DC bridge to change the voltage from AC to DC. I'm not sure if AC current would be compatible with an automotive glow plug.
   It might just be easier to build a unit around a 120 volt heater unit instead of converting from AC to DC. Something like a higher wattage soldering iron would work for a heat source. Even the high temp switch would work with 120 volts AC and wiring it in would be the same as with 12 volts DC.
  Most of the wands are built around a 12 volt system because bee yards are isolated and are away from any 120 volt source. 12 volts is available from trucks, atv's and dragging a battery around to the yard.

How many watts does the heating element draw? Divide watts by 12 (volts) and you know how much current the transformer has to be able to handle. Add 20 percent due to the constant load of the heater. If the heating element uses 120 watts you need a transformer and rectifier that can handle 12 amps. I have a 10 amp power supply, it weighs almost as much as a car battery. You will also need 12 gauge wire on the secondary side, 14 gauge could handle it but for this setup, you probably want a long cord to reach all of your hives so use 12 gauge wire.
Jim

I remember that formula, it's the watts, voltage, amp triangle, haven't had to use it in years. Thanks.

Here's an update, been doing daily mite drop counts on hive 3 and am still averaging around 140 mites a day over the last week, just got tired of posting the count every day. During the last week I'm seeing some deformed winged bees around the hive, today spotted 5 or 6 around the base of the hive. 
  Gave hive 3 a quick inspection yesterday before hitting it with the fourth OAV treatment. The hive has a good brood pattern, has a lot of bees and is bringing in pollen and nectar. All in all the hive seems healthy except for the mite infestation, it even has two shallows of honey on which I have to remove before each treatment. 
   I'm planning to continue the weekly OAV treatments. After about 21 days I'm only just getting into the third life cycle of the mites and will probably need to run OAV treatments another two weeks or more for complete control depending on the daily mite drop. I can also switch to hard chemical treatment but want to run with OAV just to see how effective it really is for a mite infested hive.
  One interesting thing I"ve noticed is that none of the other hives in the yard have shown any mite problems. Even #2 which is only 4 feet away from #3 didn't have a high mite drop when treated which makes me wonder about the theory that bee drift causes mite problems in other hives in a yard.
  I'll keep updating as needed.

09/10/18  130 mites

09/11/18  210 mites      The total so far from hive 3 is 3510 mites.

09/12/18  120 mites

09/13/18  85 mites
     
 

Well here's something to chew on, I plotted the mite drop over time on some graph paper.[attachment=0][/attachment] I have a full 30 days of daily counts which covers 5 OAV treatments given every 7 days as recommended by most equipment manufacturers .
  Guess what IT DOESN"T LOOK LIKE IT IS WORKING! or not as expected.
  My expected results were to see a steady large decline in both the peaks and valleys over the course of treatments. Instead the mite drop has pretty much leveled off with only a 10 to 15% reduction between treatments which is a lot less than I was lead to believe would occur. 

  Thoughts so far about this information. I'm treating every 7 days instead of a shorter time between treatments. Even at a 7 day interval the mite knock down is impressive.
  I'm looking at the low points on the graph and think that's where I'm getting the mites moving between the brood cells which is maintaining the population.
  The color of the mites on the sticky board has gone from mainly dark brown to almost 50% colored like coffee with cream, a light brown color which indicates that the treatments are  slowly reducing the overall age of the mites in the hive. I'm not sure at what age the mites breed  but I'm hoping I'm killing off the mature mites and maybe reducing the breeders. I'm also spotting a few white immature mites which were not present at the beginning phase of the treatments.
  I've been treating the the hive for 30 days which is getting into the third life cycle of the mites but with just over only two bee life cycles complete I expect mites are still on the brood and will continue to emerge.
 
Since I have this much time already invested in this experiment and hive 3 is still strong I'm planning to shorten the interval down to 4 days between the OAV treatments. 
  If the information on the graph runs true I'm expecting to see a second high spike where the low points are currently present. I'm trying to time the treatments to hit the emergent mites before they have a chance to move into another brood cell.
  Apparently the majority of residue left from the OAV treatment seems to only be lasting 2-3 days which is giving the mites time to continue their life cycle without too much interruption.
  Any thoughts will be appreciated.
Ed


 

 I got a gismo for OAV. The manufacturer says to treat every 4 days. For about 4 times. I did as long as i saw mites coming down.
I didn`t use it that much yet but I would think a week is long in between. Too long even vor formic acid.
What kind of gizmo are You using?
I got this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HZ6u8Bkoew
but heatet with gas and its got a dispenser for the oxalic tablets.

maybe your vapors aren`t getting everywhere they should?

I'm using a 12 volt home built wand that fits under the screened bottom board. There's a picture of it somewhere on this thread. It takes about 3 1/2 minutes to vaporize the oxalic acid. I'm thinking about treating from the top of the hive to get the vapors down inside the hive instead of coming up from the bottom. That gizmo you have is real cool, looks like it works great.
  Seven days apparently is too long a time between treatments. I'm going to treat every four days from now on. It's the first time I've used OAV and I'm still learning what works and what doesn't.
  I only have one hive with a mite infestation, all the others are clean when treated. The problem hive came from a local commercial beekeeper and had a mite problem last year. I used Apivar on it with good results over the winter but needed a treatment method safe to use during the honey flow which is why I decided to use OAV.
  A friend bought a hive from the same supplier the same time I bought mine but didn't treat. He lost the hive in about eight months which is when I had major problems in my hive. 
 
   

Beeboy01 Keep up the good work. Your treatment/experiment is very interesting and educational as well!! Thanks for posting... Phillip Hall

Quote from: Beeboy01 on September 17, 2018, 07:31:29 PM
I'm using a 12 volt home built wand that fits under the screened bottom board. There's a picture of it somewhere on this thread. It takes about 3 1/2 minutes to vaporize the oxalic acid. I'm thinking about treating from the top of the hive to get the vapors down inside the hive instead of coming up from the bottom. That gizmo you have is real cool, looks like it works great.
  Seven days apparently is too long a time between treatments. I'm going to treat every four days from now on. It's the first time I've used OAV and I'm still learning what works and what doesn't.
  I only have one hive with a mite infestation, all the others are clean when treated. The problem hive came from a local commercial beekeeper and had a mite problem last year. I used Apivar on it with good results over the winter but needed a treatment method safe to use during the honey flow which is why I decided to use OAV.
  A friend bought a hive from the same supplier the same time I bought mine but didn't treat. He lost the hive in about eight months which is when I had major problems in my hive. 
 

Last year I let a bunch of hives go without a formic acid treatment into October, which in the Black Forest is a time when they hardly take feed any more. I milked out the mites with that gizmo. In winter I treated again (OAV twice). The results are very good, esp. for the winter-treatment. I have hardly any mites this year. Of course in general many people tell of little mites. But some have them like they always do. I have hives where the fall of mites after a treatment is hardly countable.
I don`t like the formic acid much as it kills a lot of brood - sometimes.

Treating during honey-flow. I didn`t dare that. It is illegal in Germany, too. Also, our honey is quite closley supervised, as it is certified organic. I guess I`d end the honey-season if I had to treat for mites.
Of course there is always the chance to remove all brood if it is very hard, which I do anyway at the end of season. If You got an infested hive and it`s about really time to do something, take out all brood-frames (sealed anyway) and treat twice OAV with three days or so apart (no sealed brood should be there). This will handle the problem for good.

I just reread Your post. OAV from under the screen....may not work to well if you got multiple-story-hives. if bees sit tight even worse, I presume?
maybe try from above with an empty super (four boards nailed together...) with a hole in it or so. bees ought to be sortof powdered after.

It's a little different here, with OAV we are allowed to pull the honey supers, treat and then replace the supers the same day which is what I've been doing. All the hard treatments have to be performed after the honey supers have been removed for the year.
  I'm just a hobby beekeeper and can fly under the treatment radar if I want but won't do it since most of my honey goes locally to friends or is used by me. Also being a hobby beekeeper I have the time to study and document how the OAV treatments work on an infested hive.
   Even though I'm only treating one hive it is pretty much a standard representation of the typical hive with a mite infestation. I'm hoping any information I can pass on will be helpful. Knowledge is power and needs to be passed on in the war with the mites.
   

Think I'm on the right tract by going to a 4 day treatment plan. Hit the hive yesterday with it's first four day treatment and had a major mite drop of 280 over the first 24 hours. Got a major spike where the valley always occurs. Almost 40% were colored light brown so it looks like I'm hitting the emergent mites in a big way. Won't have enough data points for the graph for about a week but will post the mite drop counts daily.

  It's wearing thin doing daily counts for over a month but knocking the mites out of the hive is getting personal if you get my drift.   :angry:
Updates to follow.

  Second day after the treatment, had a mite drop of 240 which is still high with a lot of light brown mites on the sticky board. Starting to think the numbers really support treating every four days, even three days apart wouldn't be excessive for a heavily infested hive. Going to stay with a four day treatment plan for now.

Third day mite drop of 140

Fourth day mite drop of 125

      Second four day OAV treatment

First day mite drop of 185



   

Here's a follow up, The first day drop of 185 was followed by day two drop of 100, day three drop of 40, and day four drop of 20.

I hit the hive with the fourth four day OAV treatment today. So far the mite drop numbers are promising if you look at the mite drop as a indication of the current mite population in the hive.

I'll add onto the graph and post it when I get a few more data points. I'm interested in the mite drop over the next few days which will show if a four day treatment plan actually works.

Spent part of the day pulling and extracting 5 gallons of honey in 95 degree weather. Hoping it will be the last extraction for the year.

Quote from: Beeboy01 on September 27, 2018, 08:27:39 PM

I'll add onto the graph and post it when I get a few more data points. I'm interested in the mite drop over the next few days which will show if a four day treatment plan actually works.

Spent part of the day pulling and extracting 5 gallons of honey in 95 degree w     Hoping it will be the last extraction for the year.

Good job on the stats!! Yes sir please keep it up and us informed. Poor beeboy01 he's making more honey than  he knows what to do with!! Hee hee 😊😁 Congratulations on your honey production!

Five gallons will carry me into next year for home use and the occasional mead brewing, working on a bottle right now:). Think I've totaled 14 gallons for the year out of two hives which is helping to pay for the hobby. Spent a lot of beehive resources expanding the yard to five hives and didn't get a really big honey crop this year which is what I expected.
  Concentrating on the mites has taken priority over the second half of the summer once the yard was up and running.
I'm hoping that the counts for the next two or three days will really show if a four day OAV treatment is the way to go for mite control or at least for my problem hive.
  I took the data over to my local bee club this week and pretty much got shot down by the club's president. Oh well, I learned my lesson.

Updates to come. 
   

Quote from: Beeboy01 on September 27, 2018, 11:04:03 PM
I took the data over to my local bee club this week and pretty much got shot down by the club's president. Oh well, I learned my lesson.

Updates to come. 

I would recommend that you not take it to heart about you President.  Old Ideas and methods, though most of the time are good ideas and proven methods,  yet, doesn't always mean that they are the best ideas or methods. It is my opinion that we, should always be open minded enough to be receptive to new ideas and methods. As long as these methods are showing promise.  Is this not how mankind has reached the level scientificly that is has today?  Each learning more and sharing that knodlege, steady building on the knodlege of previous generations? It was nice of blackforest beekeeper to share his knodlege on the 4 day treatment plan that he uses. Your experiment seems like a good and a valuable one to me.  Pride can get in the way of learning if one allows. Data doesn't lie!  May I encourage you to keep up the good work!
Philllip Hall "Ben Framed"

 a scientist you got into mites for decades and also into OAV says it takes about 4 to 6 weeks to show the natural drop-down of mites again. which would be an indication as to how many mites are still going in the hive.
that is the crucial point: how many are left?
of course, waiting 6 weeks and then seeing, it`s still to bad, won`t help much. I guess.... that`s just the way it is.

One guy I know has a description of his OAV-plans in the net. in German, of course. I link it. Maybe there is some translation-tool? at least you will be able to read the intervalls and how many times he recommends.
https://www.hommel-blechtechnik.de/wirkung-auf-bienen-und-milben.html
just read: he recommends 5 treatments when the interval is 4 days. So: Go for it once more!

I am still experimenting with the block-treatments, too. Luckily, we had very little mites this year.

Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on September 28, 2018, 02:54:20 AM
a scientist you got into mites for decades and also into OAV says it takes about 4 to 6 weeks to show the natural drop-down of mites again. which would be an indication as to how many mites are still going in the hive.
that is the crucial point: how many are left?
of course, waiting 6 weeks and then seeing, it`s still to bad, won`t help much. I guess.... that`s just the way it is.

One guy I know has a description of his OAV-plans in the net. in German, of course. I link it. Maybe there is some translation-tool? at least you will be able to read the intervalls and how many times he recommends.
https://www.hommel-blechtechnik.de/wirkung-auf-bienen-und-milben.html
just read: he recommends 5 treatments when the interval is 4 days. So: Go for it once more!

I am still experimenting with the block-treatments, too. Luckily, we had very little mites this year.

I contacted this scientist (retired). He says, OAV works best in chilly and wet conditions. Esp. when bees don`t fly the next couple hours. He does not recommend it for summer-treatments.
So we just got to try, right?
I would keep treating till fall-down of the mites is UNDER a critical level some days after the last treatment (4 days...) as if it WAS the natural fall-out.

Blackforest Beekeeper, thanks for the article, it was informative and supports what I'm finding with my treatment schedule. One of the most important points made was that treating every 4 days allows the OAV to attack the mature female mites in the short time that they are vulnerable when moving between brood cells. I like the 6x3 block treatment plan proposed.

The mite drop count a day after the fourth treatment was 120. With only three post treatment data points so far it is hard to calculate any trends but the peaks have been reduced by almost exactly 33% after each treatment.
  Doing the same calculation on the 7 day treatments had a reduction of only about 10% per treatment.
I'm not sure as to how much longer I'll need to treat the hive, at least 3 more then the law of diminishing returns will probably kick in. Looking for one or two days with no mites on the sticky board before stopping the treatments.

  I'm not too worried about the local bee club, most use some type of strips or the dribble method for mite control and they also have hive heaters available for the members which is what the president is promoting. 

what was the fallout per day BEFORE any treatment?

Before starting the treatments I suddenly was getting a mite fall of 10 to 12 per day from the one hive. I was monitoring the hives weekly and when I spotted the increase in the mite drop went to a daily count for the hive . The hive was showing bees with DWV also. I should of done a sugar roll or alcohol wash before starting the treatments but didn't think of it. Getting a baseline would of been a big help.

Quote from: Beeboy01 on September 28, 2018, 07:52:39 PM
Before starting the treatments I suddenly was getting a mite fall of 10 to 12 per day from the one hive. I was monitoring the hives weekly and when I spotted the increase in the mite drop went to a daily count for the hive . The hive was showing bees with DWV also. I should of done a sugar roll or alcohol wash before starting the treatments but didn't think of it. Getting a baseline would of been a big help.

hey nr1!
When was that, where are You at?
If I had that kind of mite-drop, lets say August, I`d treat. I`d probably treat in July then, if I counted... (usually I got some idea of what is going on, though these days I don`t "count" any more, I just sort of gauge it by eye). Best thing You could have done in my eyes (I  would have): make a late split. Take out all sealed brood and OAV twice within three days (that will get the mites way down cause they can`t hide in the cells). The brood: Either let it hatch and then OAV, too. But they usually don`t make a queen (at least mine never did!) at this time of year. And not with so many mites (90% of all the mites in that hive have gone with the brood). Or go for something harder, something that works inside the cells, like formic acid, to get rid of the mites in that hive.
If you put that box next to the original box or on top, you can reunite after all are hatched and treated if you need strong hives for winter.
if you got a mild climate, leave it.
There is one guy in Germany, has got a kind of bee-school, he takes out ALL the brood or even all the frames (he has no more than 6 Jumbos in the brood-nest) and melts them down (after last honey-flow). Then gives frames with foundation and in the next 7 or 9 days he treats twice with OAV. That was that till winter for him usually.
I usually use the brood, make nucs (with the old queen) and treat them with formic acid.

This scientist I was speaking of says: a 100 in summer, 10 in fall, 1 in winter (natural drop) is a MUST for treating. (full grown colony, half for nucs I`d say)
I go way below: 10 in summer, 2-3 in fall, 0,5 in winter (winters I treat them all, no matter what, these days).
now when is fall, when is summer....?

Last year still I only treated the ones that needed it. This year I treated them all and hardly any needed it. Because last year the ones NOT treated showed a mite drop too high later on, though by the book they shouldn`t have.

The scientist lives because he is dealing with bees. Some people lives because they sell the yield from the bees. Different goals there...

another thing: mite count does fluctuate.

I'm in Florida and the high count started the first week of August which is about right for the mite population curve. I held back treating because of being at the end of a honey flow and the hive is a good producer.

This is the first or second time I have had to deal with a mite problem, most times before the hive dies off and I wonder what happened or I treat with strips. I got tired of loosing hives so changed my beekeeping methods with mite counts and better screened bottom boards.

The club president was pushing mite counts and control all year long and I finally listened for a change.

From what I can find performing a brood break along with OAV treatments is the best for mite control. I just wasn't comfortable trying a brood break with the hive and went with just OAV treatments.

We don't have a natural brood break due to winter here in Florida, it's above freezing most of the year with the queen laying year round.

I'm eye-balling the mite drop in the other hives right now and they all look good. It's just #3 that has the mite problem.

 

Florida... been there once. I?d like it.
Don`t know about bee-keeping there. But for sure, 10-12 a day is a reason for treating.
brood-break and OAV is good. Controlling all year round is good.
You`ll do fine that way.

Here's the graph with the four day treatment points plotted. Looks like I'm getting ahead of the mites with a 33% reduction on each of the peaks as compared to the 7 day treatments which showed only 10% to 15% reduction per treatment
. I'm wondering what the lethal dose 50 is for oxalic acid delivered by a vaporizer since there is a large drop 24 hours after treatment then a greatly reduced drop later. [attachment=0][/attachment]
After 3 four day treatments I'v decided to increase the treatments to every two days targeting the mother mites that only stay phoretic for  a short time. Looks like it is working, the last count was only 90 and hammering them every two days seems to keep the hive at a LD50 or better for the mites if the drop numbers are a proper indication of the effectiveness of the OAV. Not sure how much longer I'm going to keep up the treatments, maybe five 2 day treatments to cover an entire mite life cycle.

My gut feeling is that shorter treatment spacing is way more effective than the recommended 5 or 7 day treatments and seems to be supported by the data points on the graph.

Using OAV for mite drops as a monitoring tool is viable but there isn't enough data present yet to connect mite drops and total mite population in a hive. A possible comparison of sugar rolls or alcohol washes with OAV treatments would be a help but there are a lot of other variables to be considered like hive age and how advanced the infestation is.

Hope this graph has helped understanding OAV treatments, I've learned a lot and will follow up with a final photo of the graph showing the results when I think I've the mites under control.

Ed   

Quote from: Beeboy01 on September 30, 2018, 01:37:17 PM
Here's the graph with the four day treatment points plotted. Looks like I'm getting ahead of the mites with a 33% reduction on each of the peaks as compared to the 7 day treatments which showed only 10% to 15% reduction per treatment
. I'm wondering what the lethal dose 50 is for oxalic acid delivered by a vaporizer since there is a large drop 24 hours after treatment then a greatly reduced drop later. [attachment=0][/attachment]
After 3 four day treatments I'v decided to increase the treatments to every two days targeting the mother mites that only stay phoretic for  a short time. Looks like it is working, the last count was only 90 and hammering them every two days seems to keep the hive at a LD50 or better for the mites if the drop numbers are a proper indication of the effectiveness of the OAV. Not sure how much longer I'm going to keep up the treatments, maybe five 2 day treatments to cover an entire mite life cycle.

My gut feeling is that shorter treatment spacing is way more effective than the recommended 5 or 7 day treatments and seems to be supported by the data points on the graph.

Using OAV for mite drops as a monitoring tool is viable but there isn't enough data present yet to connect mite drops and total mite population in a hive. A possible comparison of sugar rolls or alcohol washes with OAV treatments would be a help but there are a lot of other variables to be considered like hive age and how advanced the infestation is.

Hope this graph has helped understanding OAV treatments, I've learned a lot and will follow up with a final photo of the graph showing the results when I think I've the mites under control.

Ed   

Hi Ed,
I?d not overdo it. NO treatment is wholesome to bees.

Good point, I'll keep it in mind before continuing excessive treatments.

Quote from: Beeboy01 on September 30, 2018, 03:15:03 PM
Good point, I'll keep it in mind before continuing excessive treatments.

Beeboy01. I certinally don't know all the ins and outs of it but; you are doing a swell experiment here and an experiment is just that .  This is how we learn. It's not my hive and easy for me to say sock it to the mites but that wouldn't be fair in the case you lost your hive by (over treating if over treating is possible).   But I will add, I have read somewhere, I am thinking Australian research, which states that we can't over treat with OA. Please don't quote me as I read this a while back and memory is foggy. But if you are game, and are doing this not only to save the hive but to learn from your own research. I say do what yout hut tells you and keep up the good work, keep learning.  Thanks Philllip Hall.

Ben Framed, I'm not too worried about loosing the hive from excessive OAV treatments, currently my yard is going strong enough so I could split out a replacement or two come spring and still be ahead by the early flow. I'm more interested in running the treatments till the mite drop gets to an acceptable level, maybe under 20 after a treatment. 
  It's all new territory, haven't found anything the documents every other day treatments. There is some data on three day treatments which was shown to work for a heavily infected hive.

Black Forrest Beekeeper, I'll keep you advice and monitor the hive's health as I continue, no need to kill the patient to prove the surgery worked.

I think that it is telling that the four day treatments showed a much greater reduction in the mite drop over 4 treatments when compare to the same number of seven day treatments. A treatment plan of six or seven treatments 3 days apart is starting to look optimal. 

The beekeeping community need to work and document on using OAV as a monitoring tool also now that it is legal in the US. JMHO

✅.  👍🏻

Mite drop count on the second day after the first two day treatment is 40. I hit the hive with OAV for the second two day apart treatment. Hopefully this will be close to the last of the treatments. Curious as to what tomorrow's count will be.

One interesting thing is that the highest mite drop for the seven day treatments came 48 hours after treatment but when the hives were treated every four days the largest drop occurred after only 24 hours. This also appears to  be occurring with the two day treatments. Not sure if it means anything, maybe there is a higher residual of oxalic acid left in the hive with the shorter treatment spacing and the overall toxicity is increased for the mites which provides quicker knockdown in 24 hours.

Ed

 

Quote from: Beeboy01 on October 01, 2018, 04:08:39 PM
Mite drop count on the second day after the first two day treatment is 40. I hit the hive with OAV for the second two day apart treatment. Hopefully this will be close to the last of the treatments. Curious as to what tomorrow's count will be.

One interesting thing is that the highest mite drop for the seven day treatments came 48 hours after treatment but when the hives were treated every four days the largest drop occurred after only 24 hours. This also appears to  be occurring with the two day treatments. Not sure if it means anything, maybe there is a higher residual of oxalic acid left in the hive with the shorter treatment spacing and the overall toxicity is increased for the mites which provides quicker knockdown in 24 hours.

Ed

Thought of extra punch for your situation: treat when all ladies are at home. nightfall eg.

About one week after the last treatment most mites should be down that will make it down.
OA seems to be only active for an hour or two. the delayed drop is mites that have got a hit on a sublethal level and die later on. also, of course, there will be mites that still make it into brood and die there. so these will fall later when the bee hatches out. and this will falsify your natural mite drop count somewhat to the worse.

Well today's count was only 55 and I'm going to stop treating the hive but keep doing the counts, it was a successful experiment as far as I'm concerned.

Although it's not the recommended treatment schedule I would say that 6 treatments three or four days apart would be optimal. Hitting the hive every two days is excessive unless there is a major infestation and quick knockdown is needed.

I need to find some base line numbers for natural mite drops over the upcoming weeks and possibly do a alcohol roll in about a month on some of my hives.

  Anyways hope everybody enjoyed this and learned something, I sure did.


Thanks also to Blackforrest Beekeeper and Ben Framed, their input was a big help.

if there is a big knockdown needed, taking out the brood is the easiest and quickest way. Also the most secure. Leaving one frame of open brood then and removing it after most of it is capped. Removing it then: You got a clean hive.
No treatment needed, if wanted.

I was just seeing what the most efficient method of using a OAV wand was without performing a brood break or performing any other major manipulation of the hive.
  Since OAV is a newer treatment here in the states and in Florida where we don't have a real brood break I was curious as how to make it work on it's own.
     

Quote from: beepro on August 20, 2018, 08:33:37 AM
I've read that study been done, after the oav treatment under a microscope the bee scientist can see the
tiny holes burned into the bee's exoskeleton.   The result is a shorten lifespan bee.   I will never use oav again otherwise I
would use my homemade oav invention under the hive to burn it in.  Now I use an IPM method to remove the mites entirely.
Because some mites are still inside the cap broods, if not done right according to the timing of newly emerged bees with the
attaching mites on, the entire hive may crash over this winter.    There are some who miss the timing of treatment resulted in a
dead out.   Time it out!

How about sharing that information on OAV treatment harming bee.  Just where and when did you
"read" that study.

Quote from: beepro on August 21, 2018, 07:05:04 PM
There is only one apiary that I know of that claimed their bees can kill the mites and handle the SHB also.  On you tube vids I've
seen one bee carried the SHB off its hive.  So both the mites resistant and SHB carrying bees are out there.  Maybe it is time that you do some research to
find those bees.   I would if I'm in your situation.  For now do what you can to ensure their survival.

Beepro, I have a feral hive that I acquired back in April which was in the siding of a lady's house. I have seen these bees dragging out SHB. This is my first year and I assuned this was common practice among bees?  The workers are grayish-yellow, But the queen is grayish-yellow with a blackish tail,  almost solid black tail.  They are very hard workers and though they have never offered to swarm, I have split them 3 times. Thanks, Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

Found some instructions on OAV-treatment which came with my gizmo, see further up the thread.

These instructions are meant for our climate. We got a winter and almost always they will be brood-free in winter. Mine always were.

End of flows will usually be mid-July. For very few regions it may be later (heather, forest).

The manufacturer says, OAV has an effect a week long.

In August, (if too many mites, earlier), he suggests 3 treatments with 4 days apart. Another guy, commercial beekeeper, who uses this gizmo, too, suggests 4 treatments with 4 days intervals. I would suggest that, too. In case of doubt (many mites falling after treatment), I`d do a fifth. This is for breeding colonies!

If You remove all brood and give foundation at this point, after about a week one treatment should suffice. (this is from the commercial guy).

Manufacturer: 2nd week of September 1 treatment.
if weather stays fair, after 10 days treat the stongest colony again and if in 2 days the mite drop is more than 200, treat all colonies.
if weather is foul and bees have to stay in, no treatments should be necessary (due to re-invasion).

in the broodless period: 1 OAV. for us that would be november/december. The commercial guy suggests two treatments two weeks apart, even if broodlessness has not been achieved. (well, what you gonna do anyway then?)

It is common and I think there is some regulation in Germany, not to treat after last of December and not before the last honey-pull. no spring-treatments. It will probably not hurt, if allowed, to give another OAV before first brood has been capped in spring. If necessary. and of course, if broodlessness is achieved in Jan/Feb, you might do it then. albeit - the earlier those mites are dead, the better.

black Forrest Beekeeper, Thanks for posting the OAV instructions, they pretty much confirm what my experiment showed. My best mite kill came when I started a 4 day treatment plan instead of the seven day plan I started with. I also treated every two days at the very end of to target the breeder mites that only spend a short time outside the brood cell. Not sure if the two day treatments had any added effect when compared to the four day treatment plan.
  Its been a week since my last treatment and the mite drop has steadily decreased from 50 per day down to today's count of only five mites. I'm planning a alcohol wash on the hive next week to develop a baseline.     

I really enjoyed the read on this one.  It has been great to see the daily numbers, the setting of those numbers to a trend, then adjusting the treatment plan (days between shot) based on what the data was showing.  Great stuff!

One piece of the puzzle that was asked further up is the estimation of how many watts the heater is.  Any idea what current that glow plug is pulling?  An important parameter for anyone intending to build themselves one.

Also, what is the dose of OA used (grams) per treatment?  And, how long is the device left in the hive to vaporize the full dose.

Honeypump,  the heater rod pulls about 150 watts, some pull more wattage but the one I used is smaller in diameter which helped keep a thin profile for the heater block which allows it to slip into the hive or under the screened bottom board. A thin design was one of the goals in building it and I was able to get the heater block to be only 5/8 of an inch thick. Good thermal conduction between the heater rod and heater block is needed and thermal grease is recommended around the rod. I used a few wraps of aluminum foil instead which has worked so far.

I'm using 2 grams or 1/8 of a teaspoon per deep super of brood which is the recommended dose, instead of weighing the dose I used a 1/4 teaspoon measure which is close enough to a 4 gram dose for the double deep. Using measuring spoons is the method the commercial OAV wand vendors recommend and I did't see any reason to reinvent the wheel in this case.

The temperature shutoff switch turns the current off at 350 degrees or about 3 minutes after starting the treatment, having an indicator light on the wand is a big help. I leave the wand in the hive for another 3-4 minutes with power off to finish vaporizing the oxalic acid. The extra time allows me to prep the next hive in my yard. I can treat all 5 of my hives in under an hour. The heater block gets cooled in a container of water and wiped off between hives. I don't immerse the electronics, just the end of the heater block to cool everything off.

So far the treatments have worked on #3 with no signs of any mites even after a 72 hour count and I'm happy with the results.

The scientiest I mentioned said it doesn`t matter mcuh about the dosage. 1 gram should suffice for two deeps is his opinion. I use 1 gram (tablets) for any hive I treat. Seems to work. Lots of fumes.

Thanks Beebpy01.  Am crystal clear now. 

Gotta vent on this, I took the graph and wand in to the local bee club just to show how well it worked and the finial results of the OAV treatments and was met with a total disinterest from the president and some of the other club officers. The general comment was that it took too much time to treat the hive doing it every four days. Basically got blown off so I decided not to press it. The old saying "you can lead them to water but can't make them drink" comes to mind.
  Now the club is there to present different ideas and ways of bee keeping to the members and I just don't get their reaction to the information I presented. Getting off the soap box. :)

Quote from: Beeboy01 on October 30, 2018, 11:06:04 AM
Gotta vent on this, I took the graph and wand in to the local bee club just to show how well it worked and the finial results of the OAV treatments and was met with a total disinterest from the president and some of the other club officers. The general comment was that it took too much time to treat the hive doing it every four days. Basically got blown off so I decided not to press it. The old saying "you can lead them to water but can't make them drink" comes to mind.
  Now the club is there to present different ideas and ways of bee keeping to the members and I just don't get their reaction to the information I presented. Getting off the soap box. :)

Sounds to me like the club president and officers are overdue for being replaced. ...
Different points of view and healthy debate are crucial to any well functioning and progressive group. Peer challenge and critic are essential. It is also perfectly acceptable at the end to agree to disagree.
However when facts are clear and overwhelming; nay sayers and egos need to be promptly stomped and swept aside.  imho.

I personally sincerely appreciated your effort here in this thread.  By far the best contribution to the evidence and knowledge base on the OAV method that I have seen in a long time.  Let me just say this; large apiary operations that use OAV as one of their main tools - cannot be wrongly using it nor can afford to be frivolous about doing so.  You are on the right track Beeboy01. You can either influence positive change at your club or just leave them in the dust behind as you undoubtedly become much more successful than they will be.

I am another that very much appreciates what you have done with your research. The time invested, the thought, and sharing that with your friends here. Good job!! Thank  you very much beeboy!!
Sincerely, Phillip Hall

PS  When Mr Claude speeks, I listen very closely. IN my opinion you have been honored by his comment...

Thanks all, I'm not mad just a little disappointed in the response my numbers received. Guess I need to go for a Master Beekeeper's Certificate to be heard. I've seen the club swing from one type of treatment to another, sort of the flavor of the week which seems to be heat treating this time around.
  After all I had fun running the experiment and learned a lot plus saved the hive so from my point of view it was a success. Passing the info on to the board helped me a lot, thanks for all the comments and input. Kinda wish I had done a sugar roll at the beginning and the end, maybe next time cause mites always seem to come back.