Winter will be upon soon. I would like to elicits comments of above subject: fondant or table sugar. In the past I have used fondant with good success, EXCEPT for last year. I did lose a hive to condensation that formed on the wax paper holding the fondant. Sixteen hives I fed fondant on wax paper above half way over the cluster. Fifteen hives did fine, however #16, my biggest cluster generated enough heat that moisture formed and I was sick when I discovered my error that caused wet frozen bees and subsequent condensation kill.
The lid was vented but the bees usually seal the vent. Ventilation is another subject as I wish explore your views on sugar versus fondant. Sugar absorbes moisture which has advantages. The method is referred to as THE MOUNTAIN CAMP method. I have never fed raw solid sugar to my bees. I always diluted to make syrup in warm months or make fondant for winter months.
My best hives will receive a winter board, burlap for moisture absorbtion and fondant or sugar. I am trying to figure which is best fondant or table sugar.
My support hives,,,, well,,,, I am leaning towards sugar placed on the inner partition. But I would like input of feeding sugar, as I stated I have no experience with solid sugar, which is much cheaper, easier to use than fondant.
For your info, I am a hobbyist with about 20 backyard hives, Itialian mutts. I community feed sub pollen year round.
Blessings
Van,
In the past I was not a big supporter of feeding. I am slowly changing that. I tried mountain camp several years ago. The bees removed it from the top and put it in the tray below.
They do not do that with fondant.
Jim
I am one of those that believe the best food for wintering is sugar, made into a thick syrup, and fed until the combs are filled. I have emergency fed dry sugar to a few 5 frame nucs, but I think it is not a very efficient method of feeding. If sufficient syrup is fed there will be no need for dry sugar or fondant feeding.
Van, I'll see you at the meeting Monday night, this will be the last until next January. You can tell me all about the bear problem. See you.
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on October 06, 2018, 09:18:03 PM
I am one of those that believe the best food for wintering is sugar, made into a thick syrup, and fed until the combs are filled. I have emergency fed dry sugar to a few 5 frame nucs, but I think it is not a very efficient method of feeding. If sufficient syrup is fed there will be no need for dry sugar or fondant feeding.
Van, I'll see you at the meeting Monday night, this will be the last until next January. You can tell me all about the bear problem. See you.
To be honest, I am surprised to the idea of keeping open feed in the hive during winter. Feeding up with sugar syrup or whatever so there is enough winter supplies in the hive is the only way I would do it. Never heard of this, either. I have the European literature on bees about thru...
Dry sugar and maybe fondant have not been worked on by the bees, while they have converted everything in the comb in a way they can use it like honey. Right away. And they dont need water for that, either.
why would there be a need for NOT letting them store enough in the combs? Esp. two deeps. There can be enough feed in the combs to sustain any colony during just about any winter.
if things get close, one could still feed a patty of fondant in early spring. I usually - if need be(e) - give sugar syrup then. Best from frame-feeder close to the cluster or from underneath.
Best is to proper prepare the hives for Winter by filling up supplies with enough sugar syrup right before winter.
For emergency feeeing i prefere straight sugar fondant.
BlackForest {Esp. two deeps. There can be enough feed in the combs to sustain any colony during just about any winter.}
Sir, the deeps can be full of honey, but do to severe cold, the bees can only move upward following the heat from the cluster. Honey only one frame away becomes useless because the bees cannot reach it.
I have seen winter dead outs, bees head first in cells dead, with honey on the far end, only inches away of the same frame the bees starved on. With sever cold, the bees cannot move over to adjacent frames full of honey. My bees clustered, always move upward, not sideways.
Therefore full capped frames of honey off to the sides are not available to the bees and the air is to cold for me to open a hive and move frames of Honey.
Blessings
I dunno, but I figure fondant is just table sugar cooked until it's soft candy. so I simply make sugar bricks and avoid the cooking part.
More work than I'm inclined to do. They use the sugar bricks just fine, because the moisture from their respiration makes a syrup of the bottom surface.
Last winter 2 out of 3 hives used the sugar bricks instead of honey stores on the outside frames. 3rd hive managed to move laterally to honey reserves instead of moving up.
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 07, 2018, 12:46:46 PM
BlackForest {Esp. two deeps. There can be enough feed in the combs to sustain any colony during just about any winter.}
Sir, the deeps can be full of honey, but do to severe cold, the bees can only move upward following the heat from the cluster. Honey only one frame away becomes useless because the bees cannot reach it.
I have seen winter dead outs, bees head first in cells dead, with honey on the far end, only inches away of the same frame the bees starved on. With sever cold, the bees cannot move over to adjacent frames full of honey. My bees clustered, always move upward, not sideways.
Therefore full capped frames of honey off to the sides are not available to the bees and the air is to cold for me to open a hive and move frames of Honey.
Blessings
Hi Van,
1st the frames ALL FULL of honey is very bad for bees. They need empty cells for the cluster to form on.
2nd the fondant or sugar on top is quite a ways futher away than the honey or whatever on the same comb. so they are no better off there.
3rd bees dont only move upwards. I dont even have an upwards. maybe not as cold not as long here, may be.
problem may often be: bees like to cluster on the former brood-nest, NOT on unbred-yet fresh comb. So they get some food when they can, but DO NOT MOVE after it as it is being consumed.
4th weak colonies are more suspect to starvation by disconnection from food.
5th also, when they breed and there is a spell of cold, they dont move then, either.
6th bees headfirst in the cells is normal in winter. they do that in the cluster. so there may also be a varroa and/or virus-problem undetected a co-reason.
how cold are your winters? how long the cold-spells?
When its cold (for us here, like -5 to -15 C) bees dont need much food. they need food when the breed. so, winter-feed is really negligable (november to february, sometimes longer, that is for us). its spring-build-up that consumes feed. and then is when most bees starve (around here) not in thte cold of winter.
one other thing that would make me be careful: every feed is a simulation of a flow. so they might be coaxed into starting breeding again at an untimely time.
I believe that capped honey, up top is a heat sink ?
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 07, 2018, 01:51:07 PM
I dunno, but I figure fondant is just table sugar cooked until it's soft candy. so I simply make sugar bricks and avoid the cooking part.
More work than I'm inclined to do. They use the sugar bricks just fine, because the moisture from their respiration makes a syrup of the bottom surface.
Last winter 2 out of 3 hives used the sugar bricks instead of honey stores on the outside frames. 3rd hive managed to move laterally to honey reserves instead of moving up.
Fondant actually is icing sugar mixed with inverted syrup, not cooked sugar, that yield rock hard candy blocks.
Quote from: robirot on October 07, 2018, 07:59:28 PM
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 07, 2018, 01:51:07 PM
I dunno, but I figure fondant is just table sugar cooked until it's soft candy. so I simply make sugar bricks and avoid the cooking part.
More work than I'm inclined to do. They use the sugar bricks just fine, because the moisture from their respiration makes a syrup of the bottom surface.
Last winter 2 out of 3 hives used the sugar bricks instead of honey stores on the outside frames. 3rd hive managed to move laterally to honey reserves instead of moving up.
I don't think fondant is heated at all.
Fondant actually is icing sugar mixed with inverted syrup, not cooked sugar, that yield rock hard candy blocks.
+1. I agree with everything blackforest beekeeper and others posted above wrt ensuring hive has stores in the combs of honey or fed syrup well BEFORE winter prep. Further will add bees do not starve with frames of food next to them. Something else killed them. And a further further add, use or need of fondant and other such is imho evidence of inexperience or filling gaps of poor, perhaps bordering incompetent, beekeeping practices. May be a little strong, may be not.
Quote from: robirot on October 07, 2018, 07:59:28 PM
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 07, 2018, 01:51:07 PM
I dunno, but I figure fondant is just table sugar cooked until it's soft candy. so I simply make sugar bricks and avoid the cooking part.
More work than I'm inclined to do. They use the sugar bricks just fine, because the moisture from their respiration makes a syrup of the bottom surface.
Last winter 2 out of 3 hives used the sugar bricks instead of honey stores on the outside frames. 3rd hive managed to move laterally to honey reserves instead of moving up.
Fondant actually is icing sugar mixed with inverted syrup, not cooked sugar, that yield rock hard candy blocks.
I tought there were "inverted" versions to be had?
I don`t use fondant as in the BIOLAND-version it`s outrageously expensive.
sorry. to early in the morning. o - well - glasses lying on the tabel there. I didn?t read "inverted" in your last post, robirot.
A guy I know cares for 8000 hives or maybe half of them used this sort of fondant for emergency-feeding this spring. they keep the bees very tight and with just enough feed and it got very cold with the bees already breeding. he said, it would be better to use the inverted stuff then. he had a hard time finding machines that could knead the dough in these dimensions...
I guess, combs of honey/feed would have been better. But: Where to store them?
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 08, 2018, 02:47:49 AM
Quote from: robirot on October 07, 2018, 07:59:28 PM
Fondant actually is icing sugar mixed with inverted syrup, not cooked sugar, that yield rock hard candy blocks.
I tought there were "inverted" versions to be had?
I don`t use fondant as in the BIOLAND-version it`s outrageously expensive.
For fondant, only the syrup gets inverted (Ambrosia onl uses glucosis syrup, thats why it driesbrock hard, no fructosis) it wouldn't work with the inverted solid sugars, since they behave a lot different.
Yes, Bioland and all the other eco-labels are a rip off, with Bioland propably being the most reasonable one.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 08, 2018, 02:56:50 AM
sorry. to early in the morning. o - well - glasses lying on the tabel there. I didn?t read "inverted" in your last post, robirot.
A guy I know cares for 8000 hives or maybe half of them used this sort of fondant for emergency-feeding this spring. they keep the bees very tight and with just enough feed and it got very cold with the bees already breeding. he said, it would be better to use the inverted stuff then. he had a hard time finding machines that could knead the dough in these dimensions...
I guess, combs of honey/feed would have been better. But: Where to store them?
8000 hives in germany? Who is having that many hives?
That inverted ia better for bees is an old myth, that is still quite popular in germany, or to take work of the bees by uaing inverted syrup. Fact is, invertin is always produced by the bees even if not needed. Inverting sugar is a normal process for the bees and can not be stopped vor helped. They need to do so.
I myself had actually to feed sometimes in spring, feeding syrup was not as nice as feeding fondant. They didn't really store emergency feed syrup, which resulted in feeding every week. With fondant you get a quite long feeding time. It gets rather treated like stores they allready have, then feed. Just like fondant you put in a feeding pouch during flow, where it stays untouched.
@robirot: sounds reasonable what You say. never thought about it as I use sugar, which is "cheaper". I have thought about putting fondant in my nucs, so I don`t have to see them till september... :wink: too expensive as yet.
Ansgar Westerhoff has appr. 8000 hives. http://westerhoff-imkereibetriebe.de/
he overwintered appr. 2000 nucs nearby in the rhine-valley (the densest bee-population in Germany there; even the BIOLAND-colleagues down there are b...tching bout him) and will bring a lot more this winter - or are here already, don`t know.
There is politics going on in BIOLAND which I can clearly see are against big bee industries. Too many hobbyists, still. But these politics might affect me, though small, cause I try to get my logistics straight and easy. "no loss of flight-bees while transporting..." want me to close my hives before loading???
fondant this spring: was brick-hard-frost here, not up north? they couldn`t fly to get water, so..... aaaah. you got them styrofoam boxes. lots of condensation there, I dig it.
we poured some syrup twice. I think it gave them a push towards build-up quite nicely. spring flow was SHORT, but they managed nicely.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 08, 2018, 05:02:31 AM
@robirot: sounds reasonable what You say. never thought about it as I use sugar, which is "cheaper". I have thought about putting fondant in my nucs, so I don`t have to see them till september... :wink: too expensive as yet.
Ansgar Westerhoff has appr. 8000 hives. http://westerhoff-imkereibetriebe.de/
he overwintered appr. 2000 nucs nearby in the rhine-valley (the densest bee-population in Germany there; even the BIOLAND-colleagues down there are b...tching bout him) and will bring a lot more this winter - or are here already, don`t know.
There is politics going on in BIOLAND which I can clearly see are against big bee industries. Too many hobbyists, still. But these politics might affect me, though small, cause I try to get my logistics straight and easy. "no loss of flight-bees while transporting..." want me to close my hives before loading???
Yes, i know the discussions, absurd. Well i din't know about lose of foragers, since i only move my hives during night with open entrace (well you propably know not very common in germany, and a lot of people told me that would be crazy. Well one time this year i only had my Fiesta and stuffed 5 hives into it, no problem, all open entrance).
Only for mating nucs i din't care, if i live them from my mating apiary, to my storage and working apiary, i just move them and good.
.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 08, 2018, 05:06:21 AM
fondant this spring: was brick-hard-frost here, not up north? they couldn`t fly to get water, so..... aaaah. you got them styrofoam boxes. lots of condensation there, I dig it.
we poured some syrup twice. I think it gave them a push towards build-up quite nicely. spring flow was SHORT, but they managed nicely.
For spring the best fondant is the fondabee fondant in 2.5 kg packs. Only cut out a square of 2" ? 2". The bag prohibits drying, and the bees inside Form enough moisture to easly consum the sugar. Fondabee ia also available as bio at a price just above bio sugar.
Yes i use mainly styroform, actually condensation is not an issue there. I habe a couple wooden boxes too, they have the same problems with condensation and in spring a big problem, since it it really wet up in northern Germany, they soak up a lot of water over winter, which the bees first need to drive of. Actually you can really see where the winter cluster is hanging round, die to the wet areas in the outside. This soaked up water in the wood, is what I suspect is the biggest reason for the throwback of ooden hives compred to styroform up here (and of course the weight). Well now i just have to exchange all my Segeberger for a better system. 5 years to go for that.
Quote from: robirot on October 08, 2018, 09:00:13 AM
Well i din't know about lose of foragers, since i only move my hives during night with open entrace (well you propably know not very common in germany, and a lot of people told me that would be crazy. Well one time this year i only had my Fiesta and stuffed 5 hives into it, no problem, all open entrance).
Only for mating nucs i din't care, if i live them from my mating apiary, to my storage and working apiary, i just move them and good.
Well, I do it the same way. And I have put open colonies in my van, too. First I put on a veil, but later on discarded. I wished for a policeman to stop me with all the beards on the boxes. :cheesy:
Open boxes is SO MUCH MORE TRANQUIL. Bees just don`t really notice while they notice a closed entrance very well.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 08, 2018, 09:50:19 AM
Quote from: robirot on October 08, 2018, 09:00:13 AM
Well i din't know about lose of foragers, since i only move my hives during night with open entrace (well you propably know not very common in germany, and a lot of people told me that would be crazy. Well one time this year i only had my Fiesta and stuffed 5 hives into it, no problem, all open entrance).
Only for mating nucs i din't care, if i live them from my mating apiary, to my storage and working apiary, i just move them and good.
Well, I do it the same way. And I have put open colonies in my van, too. First I put on a veil, but later on discarded. I wished for a policeman to stop me with all the beards on the boxes. :cheesy:
Open boxes is SO MUCH MORE TRANQUIL. Bees just don`t really notice while they notice a closed entrance very well.
Same thoughts her. But i started i mainly run the Wanderboden, with only 9 mm entrance and a couple oft them i got with permanently closed bottoms and oft course didn't mark them.
Also never got stopped by the police, but always the same thought, propably would only bee, are they strapped down propper, OK havr a good ride. For the veil i rather got the problem that i always forget to take it, exept when i visited one now discobtinued hive. Well i didn't visit that 2 months this year cause i lost my veil.
Quote from: robirot on October 07, 2018, 07:59:28 PM
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 07, 2018, 01:51:07 PM
I dunno, but I figure fondant is just table sugar cooked until it's soft candy. so I simply make sugar bricks and avoid the cooking part.
More work than I'm inclined to do. They use the sugar bricks just fine, because the moisture from their respiration makes a syrup of the bottom surface.
Last winter 2 out of 3 hives used the sugar bricks instead of honey stores on the outside frames. 3rd hive managed to move laterally to honey reserves instead of moving up.
Fondant actually is icing sugar mixed with inverted syrup, not cooked sugar, that yield rock hard candy blocks.
How do you make fondant?? How do you invert sugar?
The consistency of the candy depends entirely upon the temperature to which the sugar is cooked. Fondant is a 'soft ball' stage of cooking, taking it off the heat at a lower temperature. Hard candy is made by cooking the sugar to a much higher temperature known as 'hard crack'.
Heating (cooking) sugar is one method of inverting it. Adding acid is another.
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 08, 2018, 10:41:24 AM
Quote from: robirot on October 07, 2018, 07:59:28 PM
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 07, 2018, 01:51:07 PM
How do you make fondant?? How do you invert sugar?
The consistency of the candy depends entirely upon the temperature to which the sugar is cooked. Fondant is a 'soft ball' stage of cooking, taking it off the heat at a lower temperature. Hard candy is made by cooking the sugar to a much higher temperature known as 'hard crack'.
Heating (cooking) sugar is one method of inverting it. Adding acid is another.
Realy easy, most of my foundant used I just buy straight from the beesupplier. It's cheap enough to not be worth the hassle.
But if i make it myself, if i don't have enough. I just mix icing sugar with ready made syrup. HF 15-75 or Invertbee is what i usally use.
If i have some honey that can't be sold at hand, i just dilute it with some water (about. 20%) and use that instead of the syrup.
No heating involved in making fondant.
Mr. Robirot, greetings. Mr. Hops accurately described the making of fondant. However your method will work also without heat because you are adding HF15-75 which is high fructose 15% to 75% which was made with heat and acid such as vinegar or lemon juice. So you get to skip the heat process by adding already heated HF. You mention icing sugar; I am not sure what exactly this is, so could you elaborate?
The percentage you list 15-75???? Is this a typo, In the US, the subject item is HFCS with either a 55% or 40% thus HFCS-40 or HFCS-55. This is expensive in the US in part due to US sugar import laws. So we make fondant, as Hops said, we have to heat sugar to 234F with the addition an acid. Lower temps makes sticky goo, 234F makes pliable fondant, higher F makes hard candy and some toxic compounds if heated to high.
Just a side note to beeks in Germany and abroad. I am assuming English is a second language due to your location, Germany: I just want to say in a word IMPRESSIVE: that is, your English writing skills are impressive.
Blessings
Mr. Van (I guess it is your surname?),
thanks for the bundle of flowers. I did spent a year in OHIO. It`s been a quarter of a century past and I am loosing it a bit. Also, I guess being understood is more important than 100% correctness in orthography and grammar. I do enjoy English. I did enjoy my stay in Ohio. (I enjoy German, also.)
By the way: i was in northern Ohio. Compared to my place: black forest, very southwest of Germany, but in the hills: Ohio was a lot warmer. Summers hotter, more humid, a lot more humid. Winters were shorter in Ohio, more mild weather in between.
To whom it may concern: The Black Forest is a typical vacation area for taking hikes and such. Covered with fir- and pinetrees. Hills around me are at the most 3000 feet. I live at 1500 appr. But in a moist and cool part, sort of.
Mr. Van, would You be so nice as to explain to me the making of fondant? As certified organic fondant is more than twice the price of sugar, I am interested in making it myself, too.
BlackForest, fir trees do something to the air to give it such a clean fresh smell. The scent of the fir tree is the reason, I believe. Enjoy your scenic area, I bet it is expensive, your area.
Fondant: 4 parts of sugar {table sugar}to one part water by weight, not volume and add 1/4 cup of acid, vinegar or lemon juice. Bring to moderate boil which at sea level will be 234F and maintain this temp for 15 minutes. Let cool and shape at will. If the fondant is gooey, sticky, unworkable, then the temp was to low. If the fondant is hard not workable then the temp was to high.
A little chemistry, if you hate chemistry, I understand and apologize so skip the following: The table sugar is composed of glucose and fructose, 50% of each joined together. The heating with acid breaks apart the sugar into individual sugars of glucose and fructose. The process is called inversion, because when heated with acid the sugar reverts to its basic components. So why not call the process reversion: easy answer,,,, that would be to easy and make use of common sense which is prohibited in science.
Honeybees have a chemical in their stomach called invertase which inverts table sugar just like heating with acid. Once inverted the sugars can now pass into the blood stream. Table sugar cannot pass directly into the blood stream, in neither bees or mammals, the sugar must be inverted as called with bees or digested as it is called with mammals.
Blessings
I guess we should all call it digestion then. :tongue:
Mr. Van,
thank You so far. I will try. But as for the fine points of that recipe I must inquire of You:
4 parts sugar, 1 part water, 1 cup of acid (5%`?). I`d rather have the acid in parts, too. Or the sugar and water in lbs or kg, whatever. Obviously, 1 tablespoon of sugar with a bit of water won?t do with a cup of vinegar?
thanks for Your patience.
Blessings to You,
BlackForestBeekeeper
PS: This mess with lbs, cups, meters, inches and liters, Fs and Cs is just ridiculous in times of global net. :happy: Maybe we should all agree on one way in a soon future. I don`t really care which one. I can do with either system.
From my Ohio-times I have a relict: A cup-measuring-"cup". I measure with this the amount of bees going into a mating nuc of swiss design.
Blackforest,
We were supposed to switch to the metric system back in the 70s but our weak politicians were afraid to enforce the completion of the switch. I had to learn both systems as part of the preparations for the switch. Metric is much easier to use than what we use.
Jim
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 08, 2018, 03:14:01 PM
Mr. Robirot, greetings. Mr. Hops accurately described the making of fondant. However your method will work also without heat because you are adding HF15-75 which is high fructose 15% to 75% which was made with heat and acid such as vinegar or lemon juice. So you get to skip the heat process by adding already heated HF. You mention icing sugar; I am not sure what exactly this is, so could you elaborate?
The percentage you list 15-75???? Is this a typo, In the US, the subject item is HFCS with either a 55% or 40% thus HFCS-40 or HFCS-55. This is expensive in the US in part due to US sugar import laws. So we make fondant, as Hops said, we have to heat sugar to 234F with the addition an acid. Lower temps makes sticky goo, 234F makes pliable fondant, higher F makes hard candy and some toxic compounds if heated to high.
Just a side note to beeks in Germany and abroad. I am assuming English is a second language due to your location, Germany: I just want to say in a word IMPRESSIVE: that is, your English writing skills are impressive.
Blessings
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 08, 2018, 03:14:01 PM
Mr. Robirot, greetings. Mr. Hops accurately described the making of fondant. However your method will work also without heat because you are adding HF15-75 which is high fructose 15% to 75% which was made with heat and acid such as vinegar or lemon juice. So you get to skip the heat process by adding already heated HF. You mention icing sugar; I am not sure what exactly this is, so could you elaborate?
The percentage you list 15-75???? Is this a typo, In the US, the subject item is HFCS with either a 55% or 40% thus HFCS-40 or HFCS-55. This is expensive in the US in part due to US sugar import laws. So we make fondant, as Hops said, we have to heat sugar to 234F with the addition an acid. Lower temps makes sticky goo, 234F makes pliable fondant, higher F makes hard candy and some toxic compounds if heated to high.
Just a side note to beeks in Germany and abroad. I am assuming English is a second language due to your location, Germany: I just want to say in a word IMPRESSIVE: that is, your English writing skills are impressive.
Blessings
Icing sugar, also known as powdered vor confectioners sugar, is just milled sugar like used to dust cakes.
Yes HF 15-75 is a syrup made from wheat starch, using 40 or 50% works perfect too.
Actually syrup made from corn or wheat is to be preferred since it is made using enzymes. Inverting sugar is also possible enzymatic by using invertin. Using acid is problematic due to the formation of HMF.
If you want to invert the sugar with acid yourself for fondant, i would rather tend to make the syrup first and then mix that with powdered sugar, to reduce HMF content.
I don't know, how much is powdered sugar for you?
Well i spend 9 months in Australia, a couple months in the US and got a university degree in chemistry, which requires the use of english. Well makes myself keep the fluent speaking up and thanks to the fact that i had to learn english as second language, i had to learn it from the bottom up, and am writing it better then german (at least if the autocorrect doesn't kicks in).
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 08, 2018, 04:51:34 PM
A little chemistry, if you hate chemistry, I understand and apologize so skip the following: The table sugar is composed of glucose and fructose, 50% of each joined together. The heating with acid breaks apart the sugar into individual sugars of glucose and fructose. The process is called inversion, because when heated with acid the sugar reverts to its basic components. So why not call the process reversion: easy answer,,,, that would be to easy and make use of common sense which is prohibited in science.
Well because the inverting is not referring to the splitting of the bond, but reffers to the change in the Rotation of the light send through a vial of the sugar solutions.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 08, 2018, 05:10:43 PM
Mr. Van,
thank You so far. I will try. But as for the fine points of that recipe I must inquire of You:
4 parts sugar, 1 part water, 1 cup of acid (5%`?). I`d rather have the acid in parts, too. Or the sugar and water in lbs or kg, whatever. Obviously, 1 tablespoon of sugar with a bit of water won?t do with a cup of vinegar?
The ammount is not that important, 1 cup should be enough for 10 L.
Did you have a look at Geller, they habe quite good prices, even for Bio.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 08, 2018, 05:10:43 PM
Mr. Van,
thank You so far. I will try. But as for the fine points of that recipe I must inquire of You:
4 parts sugar, 1 part water, 1 cup of acid (5%`?). I`d rather have the acid in parts, too. Or the sugar and water in lbs or kg, whatever. Obviously, 1 tablespoon of sugar with a bit of water won?t do with a cup of vinegar?
thanks for Your patience.
Blessings to You,
BlackForestBeekeeper
PS: This mess with lbs, cups, meters, inches and liters, Fs and Cs is just ridiculous in times of global net. :happy: Maybe we should all agree on one way in a soon future. I don`t really care which one. I can do with either system.
Ok, Buddy:
2 kilograms of sugar or 4.4 pounds
1/2 kilogram water or 1.1 pound
Acid: vinegar/lemon juice, this quantity is not so important say 300ml or 300 gram. The acid will cook out but starts the process.
Mix all together and bring to boil 112.2 C or 234F {at sea level}for 15 minutes. Your elevation will boil at lower temp.
Blessings
I use sugar bricks as insurance for the hives(nucs) that do not put on enough weight for the winter. They have worked well for me and require no cooking. I just mix 5 lbs(12 cups) sugar with 6-7 ounces water/with a splash of vinegar. Spread it out on some parchment paper however thick and whatever size you need it and let air dry for a couple days/weeks. I usually let it dry for a couple days, then carefully flip the bricks over to let the under side have a chance to dry. You need to be careful when adding the water. If you add too much it won't dry. In this recipe less is better when it comes to the water.
If there is any leftover in the spring, it can easily be turned into syrup for spring buildup by disolving it in water.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on October 08, 2018, 07:29:37 PM
Blackforest,
We were supposed to switch to the metric system back in the 70s but our weak politicians were afraid to enforce the completion of the switch. I had to learn both systems as part of the preparations for the switch. Metric is much easier to use than what we use.
Jim
sawdustmaker!
On a daily basis, I guess it doesn`t matter much. When working with timber I often measure like: 56 cm and a fourth.... Probably some American influence on me there?
But as an engineer and halfway physicist I do favor the metric system.
2nd thoughts: I got an old LandRover and it`s a pain with the screws and stuff. Half is metric and then when You feel like winning the game, there comes english inches...
Quote from: robirot on October 08, 2018, 08:48:43 PM
If you want to invert the sugar with acid yourself for fondant, i would rather tend to make the syrup first and then mix that with powdered sugar, to reduce HMF content.
I don't know, how much is powdered sugar for you?
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 09, 2018, 02:34:38 AM
Quote from: robirot on October 08, 2018, 08:48:43 PM
If you want to invert the sugar with acid yourself for fondant, i would rather tend to make the syrup first and then mix that with powdered sugar, to reduce HMF content.
I don't know, how much is powdered sugar for you?
Is there an "edit"-button somewhere?
I thought about that. And - being really short on chemistry as a result of my spending a crucial high-school year in the US - I am grateful for Your comment.
I did think of making powdered sugar myself but did sell off a large flour-mill without trying. Powdered sugar is almost as much as the fondant, so....
Anyway: What would the recipe be?
Quote from: robirot on October 08, 2018, 09:08:16 PM
Did you have a look at Geller, they habe quite good prices, even for Bio.
I know Geller quite well. He was almost up and about to move a truckload of bees to me for pine-honey, but cement-honey got in between. But as for feed, nowadays we are required to buy "Bioland", not just "bio".
"What would the recipe be?"
10 lbs. powdered sugar or as much as you want; 50% filter water and 50% organic apple cider vinegar together in a small spray bottle.
Put in a 1/4" layer of powder sugar in a 3" high baking pan then use the spray bottle to moist it. You will see that
the powder sugar is wet when it change color, no longer a white powder form. Continue to add one layer of
powder sugar and spray it wet. Soon you will have a 3" layer of moist sugar brick in the pan. Use a knife or a
pizza cutter to cube the moist sugar into 3"x3" rectangular sections. You must divide them before heating them in the
oven. If not they will form a harden cube as large as the baking pan. If not pre-cut, once fully cure it is harder to break them into smaller section.
To cure the wet sugar: Pre-heat the oven on medium heat. Then put the moist sugar powder pan in the oven on low heat (warm setting.) It is
advisable to turn on the stove fan to vent out the vinegar smell if you don't want your house to smell like vinegar. Temporary though as the
vinegar smell will dissipate over time. Never boil (too much heat) the powder sugar in the oven as this will burn it. No good. The duration to cure is 2-5 hours in the oven. Leave it overnight to fully cure.
To make large sugar brick batches, I use as many different size baking pans as I can fit in the oven per batch. Then after 2 hours when the sugar bricks are half-cure I take the pans out and break off the sugar brick into cubes. They are not fully cure yet. Then transfer these cubes in to my homemade small fridge incubator. Inside the incubator I can adjust the temp. to 90F for a faster cure overnight. This will free up the oven for another powder sugar batch on the same day. In one day I can make a suit case of these sugar bricks.
To make better improvement I would use a 3 gal. hand held pressure sprayer. Once pressurized wetting the powder sugar will be much faster than using the small spray bottle. If you have a big incubator then you can make these sugar bricks on multi-layer bakery trays. There is more room for improvement on this
process. But don't burn the sugar while it is in the oven! This is a slow but proven method of making them.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 09, 2018, 02:39:36 AM
Quote from: robirot on October 08, 2018, 09:08:16 PM
Did you have a look at Geller, they habe quite good prices, even for Bio.
I know Geller quite well. He was almost up and about to move a truckload of bees to me for pine-honey, but cement-honey got in between. But as for feed, nowadays we are required to buy "Bioland", not just "bio".
Thats new, but maybe now no more south american sugar, when it is available produced at home.
For everyone not familar with the term "Cement-Honey" it refers to Melezitose containing honey, which settles dead hard in about 3 days in the combs. If you geht the brown variete, beautifull honey, but hard to harvest, since you need the bees to move it a second time and then use that short time window for harvest. Wie had the same problem this year even up Herr.
For the recipe I just make it up to my feeling, i gues about 20% syrup to 80% powdered sugar.
I use these sugar bricks for emergency feeding and through out our
entire summer when we're on the summer dearth. During the early Spring days when
nothing is blooming they are there for food security when the queens start laying again. During the
long winter months when moisture (fogs, rains) is an issue all of my hives got these sugar bricks piled on the
top bars. The more sugar bricks you have, imagine a deep full of them, the more food security and
moisture absorbed during the entire winter.
I've test these sugar bricks out on 3 seasons already. Every year my hives got through without any moisture issue while
feeding the bees on brood nest expansion in the early Spring. No issue so far!
Quote from: robirot on October 09, 2018, 04:21:32 AM
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 09, 2018, 02:39:36 AM
Quote from: robirot on October 08, 2018, 09:08:16 PM
Did you have a look at Geller, they habe quite good prices, even for Bio.
I know Geller quite well. He was almost up and about to move a truckload of bees to me for pine-honey, but cement-honey got in between. But as for feed, nowadays we are required to buy "Bioland", not just "bio".
Thats new, but maybe now no more south american sugar, when it is available produced at home.
For everyone not familar with the term "Cement-Honey" it refers to Melezitose containing honey, which settles dead hard in about 3 days in the combs. If you geht the brown variete, beautifull honey, but hard to harvest, since you need the bees to move it a second time and then use that short time window for harvest. Wie had the same problem this year even up Herr.
For the recipe I just make it up to my feeling, i gues about 20% syrup to 80% powdered sugar.
I cut up the combs (after extracting what was possible), mixed with water in a bakery-dough-kneading-machine till dissolved, strained and made mead with it.
Could intoxicate a little village with it....
How about mixing crystal sugar with water to a dough, maybe some acid along. Would that be taken up by nucs e.g.?
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 09, 2018, 05:14:41 AM
How about mixing crystal sugar with water to a dough, maybe some acid along. Would that be taken up by nucs e.g.?
Nope, would just dry out and large crystals get removed. Better feed then with syrup or proper fondant.
Quote from: robirot on October 09, 2018, 05:48:37 AM
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 09, 2018, 05:14:41 AM
How about mixing crystal sugar with water to a dough, maybe some acid along. Would that be taken up by nucs e.g.?
Nope, would just dry out and large crystals get removed. Better feed then with syrup or proper fondant.
some feed just plain poured crystal sugar. I thinkg Michael Bush does that, too???
THAT would be easy to feed nucs. But they might not be able to dissolve it.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 09, 2018, 06:51:25 AM
Quote from: robirot on October 09, 2018, 05:48:37 AM
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 09, 2018, 05:14:41 AM
How about mixing crystal sugar with water to a dough, maybe some acid along. Would that be taken up by nucs e.g.?
Nope, would just dry out and large crystals get removed. Better feed then with syrup or proper fondant.
some feed just plain poured crystal sugar. I thinkg Michael Bush does that, too???
THAT would be easy to feed nucs. But they might not be able to dissolve it.
You can, if you use a pouch, fill up with sugar and add water, to harden. They consum some, but if you have screened bottoms, put a varroatray under it, you will find a lot of dumped sugar.
Mountain camp works due to the condensation.
that's exactly why I use sugar bricks. Condensation moistens the bottom surface making usable syrup, but there's a lot less dumped or spilled to the bottom than loose sugar.
It is a lot less work than "proper" fondant, just a tad more work than mountain camp, and every bit as effective as either.
I just put a sugar brick or 2 on the top bars along with the patty sub. They will eat these through out
the entire winter. As the weather gets cooler I will add more sugar bricks in to the hives, stacking
them one on top of another. Putting an empty box on top of the hive will create an airspace to dissipate the
hive moisture allowing the sugar bricks to absorb even more moisture coming from the hive. I have no hive
moisture issue at all.
Bees eating sugar brick: https://tinyurl.com/yakzq773
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 10, 2018, 11:27:46 AM
that's exactly why I use sugar bricks. Condensation moistens the bottom surface making usable syrup, but there's a lot less dumped or spilled to the bottom than loose sugar.
It is a lot less work than "proper" fondant, just a tad more work than mountain camp, and every bit as effective as either.
Hops, do use place sugar bricks placed directly on the frames as Beepro, or on a winter board???
yes, Van, right on the top bars, using a shim. Compare that to Mountain Camp style feeding, where bulk sugar is just poured onto a newspaper resting on the top bars.
I found the bricks have a lot less spilled sugar in the hive than Mountain Camp.
In early Spring you can also pour the loose sugar directly on the bottom board to
stimulate the brood rearing. The bees will not push out the sugar since there is a
high moisture issue in the hive during that time. Very good for emergency feeding if you have
the bottom entrance like I do. Hive top entrance I don't know. I've tested the loose sugar method before
when I ran out of sugar bricks one year. Now I got a suit case full feeding through our summer dearth too.