Once the bees are put away for winter it is time to get on with working on equipment to make ready for next year. Repairing, refurbishing, replacing, new builds etc.
A question to the group regarding plastic frames. Specifically;
What do you do with plastic frames (pierco, acorn, etc) of old black or gnarly comb? Do you just throw them out in the trash, or what?
I don't have any plastis frames, but I have some plastic foundation that needed cleaning. I scraped as much of the comb off as I could. Dipped them in a boiling pot of water. Then while the wax was still warm, smacked them on the table to get rid of most of the cocoons. It didn't get rid of them all but, it got rid of enough of them to reuse after I rewax them.
Thp,
I have a stack of plastic that I will be using my pressure washer to clean up. Later I will dip the plastic foundation and plastic frames in wax.
By the way, on the plastic frames, I used a glue gun to fill in the gaps around the top and sides so that the SHB cannot hide in them.
Jim
If possible use a spatula to scrape them of. Then you don't need to rewax. Else pressure cleaner and rewax.
quite a mess, I assume?
If the plastic frames or foundation have been used for brood or bad wax moth then the bees tend not to like patches of them and do a poor job.
Scrape off what you can, pressure wash and rewax. A lot of mucking around but seems to be what it takes to get a good drawing out.
I have only a few plastic frames. I rotate those out to use in swarm traps after scraping nasties out.
I just started using some plastic frames - ONLY for honey. I love them. These are the wooden frames with plastic foundation. I do foundationless mainly in brood boxes, with a few frames with wax foundation in each box to encourage straight drawing.
Regarding the original question. I saw a YouTube video of an easy method of cleaning old black wax from plastic frames. This beekeeper placed his frames out in the sun for about 10 or 15 minutes. The sun heated the wax and he went down the line and peeled the wax right off the frames cleanly. Simple and ingenious.
Something else to try if you have the equipment: Place the entire super inside an upright freezer. Next day, just scrape off the old wax with a plastic taping tool or spatula.
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 10, 2018, 11:33:17 AM
I have only a few plastic frames. I rotate those out to use in swarm traps after scraping nasties out.
funny, how I find so many things NOT legal in Germany are quite common elsewhere:
old comb for swarm traps
letting comb get robbed out
open feeding
spring treatments
WE ARE OVERREGULATED .
Quote from: 2Sox on October 10, 2018, 12:19:42 PM
I just started using some plastic frames - ONLY for honey. I love them. These are the wooden frames with plastic foundation. I do foundationless mainly in brood boxes, with a few frames with wax foundation in each box to encourage straight drawing.
Regarding the original question. I saw a YouTube video of an easy method of cleaning old black wax from plastic frames. This beekeeper placed his frames out in the sun for about 10 or 15 minutes. The sun heated the wax and he went down the line and peeled the wax right off the frames cleanly. Simple and ingenious.
Something else to try if you have the equipment: Place the entire super inside an upright freezer. Next day, just scrape off the old wax with a plastic taping tool or spatula.
I am sure, tHP will go for the latter...
:cool:
Yes, I saw the video about the sun and peeling/rolling the wax off with a scraper.
I have three challenges:
1 - sun I have, temperatures I do not. It is -5 degC here now. I will not see warm temperatures until May 2019. The frozen frame thing is easy, they already are just from being left outside.
2 - there are a LOT of frames to go through. To be pragmatic about it, hand scraping each one is not an option. Scraping takes to long per frame and also left with no foundation as the bottoms of each cell will still be covered over by cocoons and base wax. What you end up with is a flat mixed surface.
3 - heat, temperature, warps the frames. Wax cannot be melted off the frames without damaging them. This may or may not be the case with the plastic sheets inserted into wood frames. The one piece plastic frames definitely warp to being unusable.
What is the fast way that results in a frames that are as new when done?
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 10, 2018, 04:47:31 AM
quite a mess, I assume?
Not really, you just need a propper setup. I really like the wooden frame/plastic foundation method. I'm currently exchanging all my frames to that.
But the key here ia to use propper foundation likr PF-100 or ACORN. The bad name about plastic foundation/frames in germany is caused by the Nordwabe, wich is really inferrior to these, cause of Bad construction. 0.5mm cell rims and flat bottoms are just not cutting it.
(And i hate wiring so bad)
Well, wax gets brittle when frozen. Should make the job a lot easier if they are frozen.
I know of a company in Oz wich is running fully on ceracell deep plastic frames, they constructed a conveyor, essentially 2 rails to guide the foundation long side and a bottom rail. Then have a chamber w?re two pressure washers are fixed and clean the foundation of the wax, while it is pushed through.
I tried heat to clean up a few plastic foundation with wood frames and ended up warping the foundation to the point of being unusable. First time with a power washer should of gone on U-Tube, the frames flew all over the back yard and got dirt embedded in the wax, LOL, it didn't work. I ended up making a holder out of a piece of plywood and bungee cords which prevented the overspray from digging into the dirt. I was only cleaning about 20 frames so it wasn't a big job.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 10, 2018, 02:35:16 PM
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 10, 2018, 11:33:17 AM
I have only a few plastic frames. I rotate those out to use in swarm traps after scraping nasties out.
funny, how I find so many things NOT legal in Germany are quite common elsewhere:
old comb for swarm traps
letting comb get robbed out
open feeding
spring treatments
WE ARE OVERREGULATED .
BlackForest: are the bee laws enforced. What happens if you accidentally spill sugar syrup, can you let the bees clean it up??? Are the fines step?
Blessings
Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 10, 2018, 10:50:18 PM
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on October 10, 2018, 02:35:16 PM
Quote from: Hops Brewster on October 10, 2018, 11:33:17 AM
I have only a few plastic frames. I rotate those out to use in swarm traps after scraping nasties out.
funny, how I find so many things NOT legal in Germany are quite common elsewhere:
old comb for swarm traps
letting comb get robbed out
open feeding
spring treatments
WE ARE OVERREGULATED .
BlackForest: are the bee laws enforced. What happens if you accidentally spill sugar syrup, can you let the bees clean it up??? Are the fines step?
Blessings
mmmh.
Germany is a lot more densly populated than the US, CAN or AUS. So, also, bee-populations are denser. The idea behind it all is to prevent AFB from spreading. This seems to work well. If You want to move bees, You gotta have a "proof of health". So, in my state, a guy from the local bee-club, who has had some schooling by the vets, will look at your colonies and check for AFB. Only if that is clean, can You move the hives. Quite a job in spring. In other states, a sample of feed is taken from every hive and sent to a lab. Only if that is negative, may you move your hives.
Also, when moving in somewhere, you are supposed to say that to the local authorities or the bee-club-guy mentioned above. Sometimes this is not done, but not liked at all.
If foulbrood is detected, there is ban-circle or quarantine-zone erected. No bees, bee-equipment or some such are allowed in or out till foulbrood is pinched out.
In this way we are more or less free of AFB. One may spend a beekeeping-life never ever having to think about it.
So there seems to be some sense to it.
When a guy (mostly the older) -or a gal - puts out old frames to be robbed out, this is not viewed with joy by other beekeepers.
Usually the most happens you get told to not do it.
I heard of an incidence when a commercial setup had a trailer full of empty honeysupers on a parking lot. the many bees flying in and out where noticed and there were consequences.
Open feeding forbids itself as the bee-density is so high you might need three times the feed... Also, it will be noticed.
Saying is, spilling syrup will promote robbery. I havent had robbery since my queens got better. No matter how much I spilled or let sit around. Sometimes I miss the frame-feeder and the syrup flows out the entrances. :embarassed:
Years ago I put out the honey-supers out to be licked dry. Then there weren t very many and I told it to a guy. He almost hit me for it. All the combs were "virgin" - never bred in. Nowadays I store them - still sticky - in a room with low relative humidity.
For the "cement-honey" it would be perfect to let it be robbed out. Cause when they have done that, it stays liquid.... If I had a piece of forest to myself, I?d do it. But chances of a beekeeper taking a hike just passed your hives are too darn high...
as for spring-treatments: I don?t know. Most just dont. I never saw any need for that, either. I guess one OAV wouldnt go into the honey if you do it 4-6 weeks prior to supering. But OAV is illegal, too...
Honeys do get controlled. Ours more often, as they are organically certified.
Anyone here who renews hundreds, thousands, of these frames per year?
>Anyone here who renews hundreds, thousands, of these frames per year?
We wax dipped the plastic frames this last spring. Probably about a thousand...
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/WaxDippingFrames3.jpg
How did you go about cleaning them down to the original form, before dipping them?
Just to add perspective and scale to the inquiry. I am looking at some stacks in the order of 18,000 - 25,000 frames to renew.
THP,
Here is what I made to rewax several hundred plastic foundations. It is just 2-4x4x24 inch pieces of steel welded together with the middle pieces cut out before welding. Then I welded a piece of flat plate on the bottom. Put some water in the bottom and add wax. Leave enough room above the wax to allow you to shake out half of a frame. I heat it with a propane deep fryer grill. It uses very little wax this way. I added the metal ring to put an aluminum pan, with the center cut to fit the top so that it catches the wax and keeps it away from the flame.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
[attachment=1][/attachment]
I use a pressure washer, with the frames in a plastic basket, to keep the foundation from blowing away and then I dip half of the foundation in the wax. I stack them up and then do the other half. Before I pull the frames out, I bang them on the sides, all four sides, to knock the excess wax off. It worked real well and 10 times faster than trying to paint them.
Jim
>How did you go about cleaning them down to the original form, before dipping them?
A stiff scrub brush.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on October 17, 2018, 03:45:26 PM
THP,
Here is what I made to rewax several hundred plastic foundations. It is just 2-4x4x24 inch pieces of steel welded together with the middle pieces cut out before welding. Then I welded a piece of flat plate on the bottom. Put some water in the bottom and add wax. Leave enough room above the wax to allow you to shake out half of a frame. I heat it with a propane deep fryer grill. It uses very little wax this way. I added the metal ring to put an aluminum pan, with the center cut to fit the top so that it catches the wax and keeps it away from the flame.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
[attachment=1][/attachment]
I use a pressure washer, with the frames in a plastic basket, to keep the foundation from blowing away and then I dip half of the foundation in the wax. I stack them up and then do the other half. Before I pull the frames out, I bang them on the sides, all four sides, to knock the excess wax off. It worked real well and 10 times faster than trying to paint them.
Jim
Ingenious! But kind of hard to picture this from the description. I'd love to see a YouTube of the process!
In 6 year of beekeeping I have never throw out or on purpose destroy a black drawn comb frame. I use the
black comb for the outer frames in the brood nest to collect pollen/nectar. This will keep the hive very well fed.
Because there is a cocoon in each of the empty cells the pollen/nectar is safe. So through out the 4 seasons these pollen
filled black comb can be use to feed the bees for nucs expansion or otherwise. Don't have to destroy the black comb at all.
What about some type of steam set up? Would this possibly work or will the steam also warp the frames?
Quote from: Ben Framed on October 28, 2018, 05:20:21 PM
What about some type of steam set up? Would this possibly work or will the steam also warp the frames?
Wax melts at 62-67 degC. Steam is 105+ degC. The plastic frame material begins to deform, warp, at just under 60 degC. Any form of heat is not going to work.
In absence of anything already done or available in the scale of what we need ..... I have something figured out. Just getting the economics sorted. Then will get on with the build.
Thanks all
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on October 29, 2018, 12:15:18 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on October 28, 2018, 05:20:21 PM
What about some type of steam set up? Would this possibly work or will the steam also warp the frames?
Wax melts at 62-67 degC. Steam is 105+ degC. The plastic frame material begins to deform, warp, at just under 60 degC. Any form of heat is not going to work.
In absence of anything already done or available in the scale of what we need ..... I have something figured out. Just getting the economics sorted. Then will get on with the build.
Thanks all
OK, my curiosity is up. Looking forward to the (cure). :grin:
The plastic that they use is very strong. I doubt the steam would bother it. If this material is left in the sun for a long time it will become brittle. Other than that it is almost un breakable.
Jim
I started to reply to this thread and had to stop. I then finished it and then read the above posts. If I had a steam cleaner I would definitely test it on this plastic. I strongly suspect it will hold up.
I don't know about the yellow plastic. The black small cell plastic under our hot summer sun for 2 weeks begin to
wrap. Then the comb begin to peel off. Once bent it will crack like a piece of dry cracker when pressure was applied. Have never tested on the
yellow rite-cell plastic yet. Yep, my little bee experiment also included testing the foundation wax and plastic as well as the composite chips particle
board hive boxes and hive top covers. There is so much to learn once you're experimenting!
Beepro,
It was just last week when I found a yellow plastic foundation, that was part of an Apiary that I just bought, that was as brittle as can bee. Up until that point I had always found it to be very durable. Quite often when I am cleaning them I smack the heck out of them over and over again, really hard, on a hard surface or on each other and I have never broke one.
Jim
In the right storage environment you can keep many of these wax worms and adult moths. One little experiment I
came up with actually clean up the black drawn wax frames. On plastic they will completely clean up over
time. But on natural wax there won't be anything left over after cleaning as they will just dig right through to
cast their silks all over.
This is only the brown drawn comb. Imagine what can be clean up on the out dated black
drawn comb.
https://tinyurl.com/y9snw7bd
https://tinyurl.com/yaeyagkk
Beepro,
One problem with letting wax moths clean plastic foundation is that they actually eat the plastic. Usually just a little bit but if you leave a lot of them on the frames it will be significant.
Jim
The plastic has no nutritional value so they will only eat the comb so far. I don't see a
significant damage on the plastic. It doesn't matter because I
will brush on some melted wax on the clean plastic cells so that the bees will be more likely to
redraw them out. If I'm lazy to clean out the black comb then just let nature does it.
Quote from: beepro on November 11, 2018, 06:11:16 PM
The plastic has no nutritional value so they will only eat the comb so far. I don't see a
significant damage on the plastic. It doesn't matter because I
will brush on some melted wax on the clean plastic cells so that the bees will be more likely to
redraw them out. If I'm lazy to clean out the black comb then just let nature does it.
That may work with plastic frames but with plastic foundation with wood frames the moths would destroy the frames.
At some point you have to stop the moth larvae from over infestation. I give it one month. This way the
wooden frames are still in good condition without any damage. From the pics you will notice that these comb frames are wrap in
plastic food film. This will confine the larvae only to the inside drawn comb of the frame. Also notice that the
outside of the drawn comb cells are still intact. If the wood is your main concern then cut out the wax about a half inch wide
gap all the way around the frame. Without any wax to eat the larvae will not damage the wood. Yes, you still need to monitor the progress on this method.
Why don't you just use a solar or steam melter and melt the wax down. That way you can even keep the wax and don't damage the frames. For wax frames, either use a pressure cleaner setup or freeze the frames and scrape them off.
Everything into a pot, melt it and push the debris down to the bottom or scoop it out.
Waxmoth just make a lot more work an damage.
We're talking about the plastic drawn frames here not the natural wax drawn comb that the
bees make. As part of this little wax moth experiment I've also use the natural wax comb for
comparison. This way I will know how damaging are those wax moth larvae can be. I'm not sure
heating the plastic drawn comb will make them wrap or not. Whatever is convenient I will let
nature do its work for me -- wax moths.
THP,
I stand corrected. I built a steam wax melter per the video BenFramed proved. I put 2 plastic foundations, one yellow and one white. The Yellow one warped real bad, the white one warped but not as much.
I am the process of rebuilding it. I originally had the steam pipe above the metal tray. I plan on moving it to below the metal pan. The wax is solidifying before it drips out of the front. I will have to put slots in the sides of the pan.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on November 18, 2018, 07:51:50 PM
THP,
I stand corrected. I built a steam wax melter per the video BenFramed proved. I put 2 plastic foundations, one yellow and one white. The Yellow one warped real bad, the white one warped but not as much.
I am the process of rebuilding it. I originally had the steam pipe above the metal tray. I plan on moving it to below the metal pan. The wax is solidifying before it drips out of the front. I will have to put slots in the sides of the pan.
Jim
Jim I also sent the same video to Mr Honey Pump when I sent it to you. The homemade wax melter in the video looks promising for the hobbyist as well a (small) outfit. In the begining I was thinking it might be suitable for a large outfit until Mr Claude opened my eyes to the large amoumt of wax produced by a large outfit. I am thinking the producer of the video, uses wood frames with beeswax comb and foundation, the old standard. He described his set up as a wax melter and hive sterilizer. The video shows the ease of which he melts and collects the wax as well as frame clean up. (Wood). I'm just currious, Jim did you build yours with the same type of tank as the one shown in the video? Or did you come up with something else?
Thanks Phillip
Phillip,
I am using an old propane tank for the boiler and it sits on top of a propane deep frier heater.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on November 18, 2018, 11:38:22 PM
Phillip,
I am using an old propane tank for the boiler and it sits on top of a propane deep frier heater.
Jim
Nice! Thumbs-UP
Quote from: Ben Framed on October 29, 2018, 12:22:30 AM
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on October 29, 2018, 12:15:18 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on October 28, 2018, 05:20:21 PM
What about some type of steam set up? Would this possibly work or will the steam also warp the frames?
Wax melts at 62-67 degC. Steam is 105+ degC. The plastic frame material begins to deform, warp, at just under 60 degC. Any form of heat is not going to work.
In absence of anything already done or available in the scale of what we need ..... I have something figured out. Just getting the economics sorted. Then will get on with the build.
Thanks all
OK, my curiosity is up. Looking forward to the (cure). :grin:
Mr. HoneyPump,
Did you find a solution for this subject?
Phillip
Sorry, I have not been following this one. I have nothing more to add that has not already been covered.
I have accidentally put frames with plastic foundation into my steam box. The end result is not pretty. I use a paint scraper and a wire brush to clean foundation in the early spring. I get the bees do most of the work. I have tried many methods over the years including soaking and pressure blasting. What I do now gives me good results with minimal work. For this method to work well, the bees must be building up and be in comb building mode. Cramped conditions and a honey flow are essential. Swarms do a good job. You can place the scraped frames onto a strong hive during a dearth. The bees will clean up most of the old cocoons but will not draw wax. These frames can then be removed from the hive and re waxed ready for the next honey flow.
https://youtu.be/P4fWEIIKWFQ
Cheers
Les
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on October 17, 2018, 02:11:07 PM
Just to add perspective and scale to the inquiry. I am looking at some stacks in the order of 18,000 - 25,000 frames to renew.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on October 29, 2018, 12:15:18 AM
I have something figured out. Just getting the economics sorted. Then will get on with the build.
Thanks all
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on December 23, 2021, 02:03:23 PM
Sorry, I have not been following this one. I have nothing more to add that has not already been covered.
A quick word..
This is a good topic started by you HoneyPump, very good. From your OP post of this topic started by yourself, sharing your needs, relaying scraping 18,000-25,000 frames was too labor intensive, and or, time consuming.
This topic was sort of a cliff hanger.... Therefore I attempted to arouse your interest, 'while' jogging your memory even though you started this topic over 3 years ago.
My question should have simply been:
Was you successful in getting on with the build from your thoughts, of what you had figured out as far as renewing or restoring this 'vast amount' of frames successfully and efficiently?
If you was not successful, my thoughts were, and are, perhaps this worthy topic might deserve more discussion for the benefit of all who use plastic foundation. Since the posting of this topic we have several additional new members, who have shown thinking out of the box mindsets which might enjoy contributing to this topic, whose input might help solve your needs along with 'others needs', who use plastic foundation. With these thoughts in mind, I renewed this topic starting at Reply #40
Phillip
Food for though:
We have beekeeping equipment available for most every need. From two frame Hand crank honey extractors for small hobby beekeepers, too large scale production line systems, complete with uncapping tools incorporated in these extraction lines built for commercial scale use. Automatic line fed production equipment as shown and used by such large scale commercial beekeepers, as exemplified to us via youtube from folks like Ian Steppler and Bob Binnie for example.
I do not see any reason that a large scale automatic, plastic frame/foundation combination cleaning set up could not be easily invented and built. Something similar to an automatic car wash line production set up, on a scale for the sole purpose of cleaning one piece frame/foundations incorporated with a complete wax recovery tank set up in conjunction. Such a system would make handy work for a vast amount of one piece frame/foundation described by The HoneyPump, quantities which may add up to several thousand as in his case of need.
Something on this thought plane would be a valuable asset indeed.
Phillip
To play "Devils advocate" what are the reasons for choosing/using plastic frames over conventional beeswax?
Hi NigelP
Merry Christmas. In the early years of my beekeeping there was a lot of talk about the plastic foundation so over a few years, I tried some. I reckon I?d have about 300 frames of the stuff in my hives. I use wooden frames with plastic foundation inserts. I find there are heaps of advantages and only a couple of problem areas in using it. Here in Australia, plastic foundation sheets are only two thirds the price of regular foundation. The price of wax has gone though the roof over the past few years due to the high international demand for our clean beeswax. As a result, foundation prices have followed suit. Wiring frames is one of those jobs that is slow. Clipping in a sheet of plastic occurs very quickly. The plastic is great in the extractor. You can spin frames at a much higher speed without getting any cell collapse. I now find that recycling a frame containing plastic is much quicker than cleaning up a normal frame. I only have two concerns with plastic foundation. The first issue is that bees don?t like it. When I first started using it, there were times that they would not draw it at all or would only make crazy comb. These days, if I clean up some of the foundation, I normally just store it until I know conditions are right for the bees to do their work. When given to a hive at the right time, the bees will draw out comb just a quickly as regular foundation. My main concern with the stuff is that it is plastic. Even though it works well, I will eventually get rid of it (over time it does get brittle and I break the odd sheet) and replace it with regular foundation. If you are running a large operation with a lot of hives, plastic foundation would save a huge amount of both time and money. If you are a hobby beekeeper like myself, it really comes down to a personal preference. For anyone just starting out in the hobby, I would generally suggest wax foundation.
Cheers
Les
I have thousands of plastic frames, some new, some old, most have been renewed several times.
They are great in honey supers but I prefer foundation less in the brood area. I prefer to use a pressure washer to clean them up after nature has cleaned up most of the old wax. I them use a deep dip tank to add wax. When dipping I insert the frames in half way and then bang them on the inside of the tank on the way out to remove the excess wax. Then dip the other side.
Jim Altmiller
But for cut comb?
:cool:
They seem to be a lot of work to save little money. In the UK there are various wax exchange schemes that make buying thin (cut comb) foundation almost a no brainer. I run all my suoers on this thin unwired comb, it centrifuges well for normal extraction and I never have to work out which frames I can use for cut comb.
A really hot knife will cut through it but gee it does take some solid chewing before you can swallow it. 🤪🤪🤪
Quote from: Lesgold on December 25, 2021, 06:54:43 AM
A really hot knife will cut through it but gee it does take some solid chewing before you can swallow it. 🤪🤪🤪
LOL.....nearly choked on my Turkey.
All of post #46
Wax $2 per sheet, plastic $1.10, pure economics, cost and time.
Also there is no gap at the bottom of the frame for the queen to duck through when trying to find her.
Some of our plastic foundation has been in for 10+ years and not touched. Some full plastics have been there 15 years.
If there is too much drone comb then it is replaced, about 20+ per year, the old ones are put in the trash.
Why clean foundation?
Can see the economics with that price difference.
UK plastic brood frames are $1.07/sheet vs $1.04 sheet for wired brood. With the wax exchange schemes the wired wax works out at around $0.33/sheet.
The thin sheets I use in the supers are about $0.13.
Nigel
Australian wax is making $20/kg wholesale at present.
Better to sell the wax and buy plastic foundation.