A question came to mind: how is the queen affected by small cell comb? ... or conversely, how does small cell affect the current queens laying abilities?
As the bees build smaller and smaller comb in foundationless frames, does it take a generation or 3 of Queens to get the hive and bees and comb down to stabile size? Does the current queen have limitations regarding how small of a cell she can lay in?
Our Main Flow is on here, and thanks to all of you who helped, all of my hives have survived the winter for the 1st time. (It's the 1st time ANY hive has survived the winter, and the hives are exploding!). I am transitioning to "Natural" comb size using foundationless frames, and letting the bees build what they want. I'm seeing a variety bee sizes now, much more than last yr. I'm sure some of these bees are leftover winter bees - and thus larger - but I'm seeing 3 or 4 sizes, or at least I think I am.
... and so, questions begin to pop up to me - this time about the queen.
Will the next queen be smaller? ... just wondering.
I should add - will the transition in size of the bees, hit a wall at some point until a smaller queen comes along, allowing the transition to continue? ...
Interesting topic!
First pict: the 5.4 bred buckfast queen?s first broodnest using drawn small cell comb 4.9.
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Second: my smallest queen, small cell comb from a line always on sc ( 20years) AMM breed from the canary island. Very prolific. Passed the queen excluder.
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Third: my elgon F1 always on small cell, line 30 years old, looks like my buckfast.
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I always thought small queens were starving while in the queen cell but I don?t think my small one would have laid eggs like a machine if it was so.
Maybe just a sign of phenotype, race, environement, not of cell size. I will see what happens after some generations buckfast.
But what I see is that the worker bees change their phenotype, they become shorter and more agile.
Very interesting SiWolKe. The queens definitely have a different look. Beautiful pictures!
Alan
When I reentered beekeeping there were these mites killing all the bees and despair in the air. The integrated pest management theory really sounded logical so I jumped straight into small cell. The bees were quickly "regressed" to smaller size. No Problem. Trouble is it had absolutely no effect on mites! So basically I now mix and match SC and 5.4MM equipment and only concern myself with putting the drawn SC combs in the heart of the brood nest. This allows me the benefit I see in a dense brood nest that means more cells can be covered in cold weather and I think I get a faster buildup. I see absolutely no difference in brood pattern when queens move on and off the bigger or smaller cell size. Every spring I requeen a portion of my colonies with unregressed queens. It is just not an issue.
Quote from: Vance G on January 29, 2019, 04:04:00 PM
When I reentered beekeeping there were these mites killing all the bees and despair in the air. The integrated pest management theory really sounded logical so I jumped straight into small cell. The bees were quickly "regressed" to smaller size. No Problem. Trouble is it had absolutely no effect on mites! So basically I now mix and match SC and 5.4MM equipment and only concern myself with putting the drawn SC combs in the heart of the brood nest. This allows me the benefit I see in a dense brood nest that means more cells can be covered in cold weather and I think I get a faster buildup. I see absolutely no difference in brood pattern when queens move on and off the bigger or smaller cell size. Every spring I requeen a portion of my colonies with unregressed queens. It is just not an issue.
Another thought on this; When bees build up combs and store honey we have very clean wax. When bees build up combs and use for brood, there is a cocoon debrie in the wax, is this correct? As the reason I'm asking , when melted wax from brood comb is melted ive heard it said the (trash) from the wax is cacoon debris. Is this correct? If this is correct, where at this cocoon type material reduce the inner diameter of the brood cell, simultaneously resulting in a smaller size bee?
>A question came to mind: how is the queen affected by small cell comb? ... or conversely, how does small cell affect the current queens laying abilities?
I regressed using wax coated PermaComb which is fully drawn plastic comb. Out of hundreds of hives I've regressed only one queen would not lay in it well.
>As the bees build smaller and smaller comb in foundationless frames, does it take a generation or 3 of Queens to get the hive and bees and comb down to stabile size? Does the current queen have limitations regarding how small of a cell she can lay in?
It's unlikely to change the size of the queen other than as you keep small cell bees you may find you prefer the smaller queens because their bees accept the small cell comb better.
>Our Main Flow is on here, and thanks to all of you who helped, all of my hives have survived the winter for the 1st time. (It's the 1st time ANY hive has survived the winter, and the hives are exploding!). I am transitioning to "Natural" comb size using foundationless frames, and letting the bees build what they want. I'm seeing a variety bee sizes now, much more than last yr. I'm sure some of these bees are leftover winter bees - and thus larger - but I'm seeing 3 or 4 sizes, or at least I think I am.
Yes. Natural comb will vary in size and therefore the bees will vary in size. Since this is what happens in a natural colony, it makes me wonder if the different sizes serve a purpose.
>Will the next queen be smaller? ... just wondering.
Maybe. Probably not.
>I should add - will the transition in size of the bees, hit a wall at some point until a smaller queen comes along, allowing the transition to continue?
Possibly. Certainly there is a natural size and when the bees have regressed to that size they won't go any smaller. That size is dependent on several things including genetics.
No answers but a question to add to this discussion. Does smaller cell make smaller bees, do they incubate quicker, does this have an effect on mites due to the shorter time in the cocoon?
Paus, I can comment on Varroa reproduction, not small cell size.
Varroa population in a hive doubles every four weeks.
Varroa female lays her first egg after about 40 -50 hours of cell capping. There after an egg is laid every 30 hours. This egg is huge, 40 percent the size of the mother mite thus the egg matures fast. Mite egg laid: In seven days, females, 5 days male mites and the newly laid mites get ready for the nurse bees to uncapp the cell. The mother mite can lay up to 5 females per cell.
I have seen drone cell with as many as seven mature laying varroa mites in a single cell. Therefore, this one cell can generate up to 35 female mite progeny. Thus the term MITE BOMB.
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 29, 2019, 05:45:14 PM
...
I regressed using wax coated PermaComb which is fully drawn plastic comb. Out of hundreds of hives I've regressed only one queen would not lay in it well. ...
So the queen CAN lay in 4.8mm/4.9mm cells from day 1. That was precisely the answer I was looking for. Thank you Sir!
About small cell affecting resistance here is a new study:
seems small cell helps when bees are still susceptible but they don?t need it anymore when they are resistant or survivor stock.
Interesting too is the mentioning of climate zones.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-018-0610-2?wt_mc=Internal.Event.1.SEM.ArticleAuthorOnlineFirst&utm_source=ArticleAuthorOnlineFirst&utm_medium=email&utm_content=AA_en_06082018&ArticleAuthorOnlineFirst_20190105&fbclid=IwAR2bRrlqv6m8DP9aWvRQWlImQcfRifvq1XzsHHytlZspO5f_z5B1l8IrKLg
They observed a lot of the aspects other small cell beekeepers have observed. Thanks for sharing this study.
Quote from: paus on January 29, 2019, 06:19:55 PM
No answers but a question to add to this discussion. Does smaller cell make smaller bees, do they incubate quicker, does this have an effect on mites due to the shorter time in the cocoon?
No different than comparing a worker bee to a drone. Yes, and yes.
> Does smaller cell make smaller bees
Yes. About 2/3 of the size of a large cell bee.
>, do they incubate quicker
Yes. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#preandpostcappingtimes
> does this have an effect on mites due to the shorter time in the cocoon?
Yes.
>The mother mite can lay up to 5 females per cell.
The problem (for the mites) is that in order to be viable (i.e. live on after the bee emerges) they have to make it to maturity and they have to mate. If both of these things do not happen, they just die when the bee emerges. So in a typical large cell worker cell with a post capping time of 12 days they have an average of 1.5 viable offspring (1.5 +- .5 or between 1 and 2). With a post capping time of 11 days this drops to an average of .5 (.5 +-.5 or between 0 and 1).
Sibylle, thank you for the link to Springer. This is new data link to me. Interesting the linked article in not listed in PubMed. Authors from Sweden and Norway may have not submitted to US.
When time permits, I will digest the data. This first paragraph is in error, PREVIOUS STUDIES DO NOT EXIST... my gosh, I have studied at least half dozen articles relative to the fact and I did not conduct a data search.
Still, the article appears well documented (referenced) and most likely contains relative info even for a hobbyist bee keeper as myself.
I did a quick search on Springer of ?Varroa destructor? search results listed 564 articles, 715 total links. This is an amazing amount of info at my finger tips. Google search returns mostly junk, PubMed may link 20 articles with abstract only viewing. So Springer is amazing.
Again, thank you Sibylle.
Blessings
I'm beginning to love my swarms and cutouts, even though they are all mutts.
Paus, Agreed. I want survival stock, I also want to breed against swarming. A catch 22 as the saying goes. So I have local swarms collected in hives that I wish would cross with queens in my Apiary. The difficult part is the queens fly out of range, as I am sure all realize. Best to all with the bees.
If you split your hives and let them make their own queens you get the cross naturally. Taking it to the extreme just buy a package let it build up to a full deep's worth and split and pinch the queen. Even if you don't pinch the queen she is likely to be replaced if you went for a third split.
Quote from: paus on January 30, 2019, 05:45:39 PM
I'm beginning to love my swarms and cutouts, even though they are all mutts.
Yes do! Lucky guy! We have no ferals except the ones made feral in a provided box.
Quote
Sibylle, thank you for the link to Springer. This is new data link to me. Interesting the linked article in not listed in PubMed. Authors from Sweden and Norway may have not submitted to US.
Maybe it will, it?s very new. Erik Oesterlund shared it with me.
Quote from: paus on January 30, 2019, 05:45:39 PM
I'm beginning to love my swarms and cutouts, even though they are all mutts.
I enjoyed the cutouts I did last year also. These seem to be hardy bees , at least I hope , being it's my first winter, I am hoping they will make it through. Paus do y'all have a lot of wild bees in your area?
Yes we do have an abundance of feral bees. Lots of corp of engineers land and state parks plus private land with hardwoods. My bees are bringing in Elm and Maple pollen and maybe nectar, they are coming in with no pollen so I assume it is nectar. The flow has just started. As always "This is going to be the year" :grin: :wink:
Paus, the bees coming in with no pollen will have elongated abdomens if the bee is carrying nectar or water. The loaded with nectar bees kind of make a rough landing on the entrance due to the added weight. Loaded bees drag their elongated abdomen... Paus, I have a feeling you already understand everything I just text, I doubt I can teach the teacher; but newbees might appreciate...
I believe it was Ace in a previous text (long ago) that stated bees loaded with nectar land like loaded cargo jets, whereas empty bees land smoothly like fighter jet. I thought the analogy by Ace of bee to jets was an interesting way to describe.
Blessings