Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

I just got to figuring and man this hobby can get expensive with a quickness!
FLow Hive 2 ($750.00), 10 frame Langstroth two deep and one super ($200.00) bucket and accessories: smoker, bee brush, hive tool, queen excluder, queen Cather, etc ($75.00) bee suit ($200), hive stand ($50.00)feeder ($45.00), I will be getting two nucs for ($160x2) and I anticipate to buy another brood box for the flow at ($65.00) a feeder for flow at ($35.00), and a commercial box for ($300.00). Total bill: $2040!!! Is this normal at all! Any ideas how to reduce the costs?


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It is expensive and does take a while to pay off. But it is a lot of work.
Building your own equipment helps a lot. Buildung your own bees helps a lot.

Quote from: JR4AL on February 04, 2019, 01:58:21 AM
I just got to figuring and man this hobby can get expensive with a quickness!
FLow Hive 2 ($750.00), 10 frame Langstroth two deep and one super ($200.00) bucket and accessories: smoker, bee brush, hive tool, queen excluder, queen Cather, etc ($75.00) bee suit ($200), hive stand ($50.00)feeder ($45.00), I will be getting two nucs for ($160x2) and I anticipate to buy another brood box for the flow at ($65.00) a feeder for flow at ($35.00), and a commercial box for ($300.00). Total bill: $2040!!! Is this normal at all! Any ideas how to reduce the costs?


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You can try to build your own hives for much cheaper or buy different kinds of hives. You just gotta look around for cheap stuff that'll still work good.

Quote from: JR4AL on February 04, 2019, 01:58:21 AM
I just got to figuring and man this hobby can get expensive with a quickness!
FLow Hive 2 ($750.00), 10 frame Langstroth two deep and one super ($200.00) bucket and accessories: smoker, bee brush, hive tool, queen excluder, queen Cather, etc ($75.00) bee suit ($200), hive stand ($50.00)feeder ($45.00), I will be getting two nucs for ($160x2) and I anticipate to buy another brood box for the flow at ($65.00) a feeder for flow at ($35.00), and a commercial box for ($300.00). Total bill: $2040!!! Is this normal at all! Any ideas how to reduce the costs?


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Well, I think you'll spend less if you buy as you need.  What if you stared with:
A veil
A smoker
A hive tool
A bottle of benadryl
A white dress shirt fr the thrift shop
2 nucs
Four  hive bodies (one is for a tote, one is for your first split )
Twenty frames
3x bottom board
3x inner cover
3x  outer cover
3x hive top feeder
A good book

I think I'm looking at 500 will get you to July, and then you may need
2x hive bodies
20 frames

Will get thru 2019,
Then evaluate in 2020 whether you can get one of those three colonies to put honey in a Flow super.

I am all for a flow hive but not for a beginner.  You need to have experience to make it work.  Curtail the urge to use the frames until you know what bees do and how they do it.  This hobby can be as expensive as you want to make it.

It's not cheap, but it is as expensive as you make it. 
I started with one nuc  complete with box, 10 frames of thriving bees, a migratory lid and the bottom board. at $120,
I added a 2nd box with frames bought from friend of mine, $35
A standard cotton bee suit, $75
Goat skin gloves $30
Smoker $20
Hive tool $15
all for $295,  because I avoided all the expensive gimmicks.
My hive stand was a few cinder blocks I has lying around.

Later that season I bought a honey super and frames and spent more money on more bees and another hive, a cotton jacket, sugar for feed (notice I didn't spend any money on a feeder, there are other ways) all for a few hundred more bucks, but my initial startup was not nearly as much as you plan on spending.

YOu will also need to plan on spending money your 2nd year, too.  You might lose your first colony and need to replace it.  You will find other equipment, tools and books you want/need as well.   
When you learn to keep your bees alive and productive you will find that the can pay for themselves, but the spending won't stop.  Like any livestock, they need to be maintained, sometimes at the expense of your wallet.

This is great food for thought and thank you all for the guidance.

As far as building my own equipment, I would love to go that route but I believe it would require more time than I would be able to give it. I also have basic tools like skill saws and hammers, cordless drills and such but I don?t have a table saw and buying one along with blades along with lumber seems to get me back to...MAN this is could get really expensive. Please don?t think I am complaining I just wanted to open up a discussion on start up costs and have some accomplices along the way .

In any event, I don?t want to go at this venture half way and need something that I don?t have all the while, I don?t want to go over board and have too many of the gimmicks. I guess my mulligan is the Flow Hive. I just had to try it!

Books! You say books... I am a book worm. I am currently reading ?Mastering the Art of Beekeeping?, ?Beekeeping for Dummies? and I have Honeybee Democracy on Kindle (I also have the book). I am over half way of each and am enjoying all of them. Incidentally, Honeybee Democracy is a bit dry at times! I have completed several more books on beekeeping since last May. Any reading suggestions while we are on this topic is greatly appreciated.

Please keep the ideas about startup and your experiences coming. It is exciting to hear about  all of them!


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Many a new beekeeper piles supers on the first year and gets nothing.  Flow hive supers are still supers.  Putting them on the right time is still critical to actually getting them filled.  But they are no more complicated to use than any other supers.  Just more expensive and more convenient to harvest.

Mr. JR.  don?t needs any saws or expensive machines.  There are many suppliers that will sell unassembled frames and boxes.  One well known supplier offerers deep boxes at about $12.00 a box, you assemble.  Nails included, all you need is a hammer and wood glue.  The finger joints are cut perfectly, assemble is easy.  Frames are also sold unassembled and can save you bucks.

I buy goat skin gloves, 6 pack, for about $9.00 a glove. These are very well made gloves that last over a year.  Per Beemaster rules, there is no advertising so I cannot state supplier names with associated price.  Well made hive tools: I purchased directly from China for a smiggen, about one half of the standard US price.

HOPS covered money issues very well, be sure to read his post above.

Quote from: Michael Bush on February 04, 2019, 11:54:04 AM
Many a new beekeeper piles supers on the first year and gets nothing.  Flow hive supers are still supers.  Putting them on the right time is still critical to actually getting them filled.  But they are no more complicated to use than any other supers.  Just more expensive and more convenient to harvest.

Thanks for the caution. When should a super be put on a new hive?


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I think the main point is expectations.  If you pile supers on when there is no flow, they won't get filled.  In a flow they will.  Usually you try to anticipate the flow and put them on before the flow, but a new beekeeper with a new package of bees often put them on after the flow and don't know why they don't get filled.

I'm a beginner, so if anything I say contradicts the rest of these guys, go with what they say!  :wink:  The way I saved money on starting up was by finding out where I could skimp and where I couldn't. 
Things to spend money on:
Veil -- You don't have to go crazy and automatically get the most expensive one or anything, but you want a real beekeeping veil so that you can trust it to protect you.  Don't screw around with bees and the safety of your eyes, it's not worth it!
Smoker -- If you get a good smoker, you'll never need one again, and get the biggest one you can find, because it'll be easier to keep it lit. 

Things to not spend money on:
Bee Suit -- I didn't even get a real suit, I just got a pair of heavy duty cotton coveralls.  I have yet to be stung through it, and it was half the price of an actual bee suit. 
Hive Stand -- I did the same thing Hops did, found a couple cinder blocks lying around. 
Feeder -- You can literally feed bees sugar water from almost any container. 

With everything else you need, just try to get the cheapest option available and don't spend money on specific equipment that you don't even really know if you need or want yet.  For example, I got a queen excluder, but wasn't sure if I'd use it full time, so I just got a $5 plastic one instead of a heavy duty one, and I'm glad I did, because I ended up deciding not to use it.  I also would just mention that as a beginner I got all the same size boxes (all mediums), so that I could interchange my equipment more easily.       

Quote from: JR4AL on February 04, 2019, 01:58:21 AM
I just got to figuring and man this hobby can get expensive with a quickness!
FLow Hive 2 ($750.00), 10 frame Langstroth two deep and one super ($200.00) bucket and accessories: smoker, bee brush, hive tool, queen excluder, queen Cather, etc ($75.00) bee suit ($200), hive stand ($50.00)feeder ($45.00), I will be getting two nucs for ($160x2) and I anticipate to buy another brood box for the flow at ($65.00) a feeder for flow at ($35.00), and a commercial box for ($300.00). Total bill: $2040!!! Is this normal at all! Any ideas how to reduce the costs?
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Just say no to the flow hive until you are established and know what you are doing. That saves you $750.
4 budget-grade unassembled deeps- $60.
4 budget-grade unassembled mediums- $40.
40 unassembled deep frames- $55.
40 unassembled medium frames- $55.
40 plastic deep foundation- $60.
40 plastic Medium foundation- $52. (You could save money by using foundationless frames, but you better be ready to keep an eye on them and keep the comb straight)
2 Solid Bottom boards- $40.
2 Migratory tops- $30. (Or you can build your own very easily with a skill saw, a drill, and plywood or advantech from Lowes. Not saving money to matter building your own unless you are building quite a few)
smoker- $40. (Get the tall one)
Hive tool- $5.
bee brush- $6. (You can use a goose or turkey feather. You don't have to have one at all, but it's nice every now and then)
Vented jacket with veil- $100.
Gloves- $2 for dishwashing style "rubber" gloves at the dollar store. (Mr. Clean brand works fine. Commercial beeks use them. I've used them for a few years now. Your hands sweat but you can feel the bees and it's much easier not to squish them. If you get stung through them it's usually not very deep, and the stinger comes back out quickly.
Hive stand- $8 for four cinder blocks from the Lowes or Home Depot.
Bees- $320 for the 2 Nucs. (You can build 2 good swarm traps out of a single sheet of plywood, using your circular saw. Set multiple swarm traps out and, depending on the area, you could catch swarms for "free." Or you could put the word out in your community that you want a swarm, and get called to come pick one up. "Free" bees.

Total to set up for 2 hives... $865.
If you catch swarms instead of purchasing bees, it's closer to $500. If you use foundationless frames, it drops closer to $400 and some change.
This is probably close to the bare minimum you could spend to get started. This is more than I started with 7 years ago. You can spend as much as you want on things that are unneeded or that actually are useful. You don't need queen excluders, but they can be handy. You don't need inner covers and telescoping tops, but they can be useful at times. You don't need foundation in your frames, but they make inspections easier, and they make using an extractor a bit safer.

Unless you are made of money, you probably ought to start with a more modest investment around that $865 mark to make a go of it, and see if beekeeping is really for you. As you gain experience, you will decide what you want to invest in.

Honestly Beekeeping is about the least expensive hobby I have, and one of the most rewarding.  I would hate to even think about what I spend on boating, fishing, hunting, backpacking, kayaking, target shooting, and travel.

Not sure what part of Alabama you are in, but if you are in North Alabama you are not far from an Amish woodware supplier in Lawerenceburg TN and your equipment cost would be very affordable.  If you are in Central ( Birmingham ) area, there is a supply house that buys the Amish woodware and resells it at a competitive price.  It is all Cypress and the prices are usually less than Pine.  10 frame Complete Cypress Hive, with frames ( wax or Acorn Plastic ), 2 deeps, 2 mediums, bottom board, inner cover, telescoping top, and entrance reducer would be 172.00.

No idea about South Alabama on suppliers. 

Quote from: Haveuseen1? on February 04, 2019, 06:41:16 PM
Honestly Beekeeping is about the least expensive hobby I have, and one of the most rewarding.

I'll second that.

Beekeeping is the one hobby that more than paid for all of the equipment that I have bought.
Start out slow and learn as much as you can and the bees will buy your equipment for you.
Jim

Thanks for asking this question. I am the newest newbee and am just trying to be a sponge. This is great information!

Ssteele,
Welcome to Beemaster.
Jim

There's a whole bunch of stuff they'll sell you and you don't need.  I was lucky to find a lot of used equipment.  My new stuff I ordered flat packed and put together myself.  A large smoker is good.  A queen excluder is not needed.  I like a bee jacket and they can be had for not too much.  A good hive tool is pretty important, but I have used other tools when my hive tools have walked. 

Before you buy a bunch of stuff check here and let people tell you whether or not they think you need it especially in the 1st year.  After you get 20 different opinions, you can make up your own mind.   :grin:

Like you I start off with buying expensive bees and hive equipment when I started. I don't know anything about bees at that time and did not even read a book about it.  Not even know that we have so many good bee books. I just jumped right in and learn as I go while making many many regretful mistakes like killing the queens for example.  So one day I just decided to get some honeybees, maybe for some honey, and then answered an ads on CL in the farm next town.  The farmer sold me 2 hives of the meanest AHBs left over at the end of the almond pollination season.  Even with the full cotton suit on, I got stung on the butt and literally jumped straight up. It was painful alright being my first bee sting.  And I thought, ohh, so this is what real beekeeping should be--NOT!   That was 6 seasons ago.
So the most useless piece of beekeeping tool that I don't need is a yellow nylon bee brush.  The bees would cling and bite on the plastic strands enough to make them send off the alarm pheromone making them mad.  Now I use a piece of soft and flexible 1/4" sponge to flick the bees off the frame into the hive.  The bees barely notice that they are off the frame reducing the alarm pheromone.  They are much calmer with controlled flipping them off the frame.
If you live in a hot or humid summer climate then do consider buying a ventilated full bee suit.  At one time or another, you will need to dig deeper into the hives for manipulation or honey harvest.  If you don't have a full suit on and just a veil or half jacket that will not protect yourself especially when some bees got Africanized (AHB) in your area.  I'm not sure if you have the AHBs there.
So a vented full suit will help to cool you down during the hot summer months.  This one is a must have for me.  The old cotton full suit just lying around as a back up just in case.  Worth it to invest in a vented full bee suit.

As for the hive tool replacement, now I use a big flat screw driver enough to fit into the 3/8" opening between the frames at the end.  After loosening the frames I use a frame gripper to lift the frame out of the hive.  A frame gripper is the second must have tool for me.  The half new hive tool is still here waiting to be use when needed.  Somehow when I needed it, it is usually in hiding from me.  Not having a mind of their own, the blue and yellow big screw drivers are always visible on the hive stand.  I put a few of them next to the hives for easy access. I'm sure we all have a few of those we can use to loosen up the frames.  Why you have to buy when you already have the tools lying around, right.

Now that the varroa mites are here, you have to find a method either chemical treat or IPM to control them.  Without removing the mites off the hives to a manageable level, your bees cannot survive the winter.  There are mite biting/mauling bees to buy but the high mite level will overwhelm the hives if you don't have a control method over them.  So I would recommend that you do some research on controlling the varroa mites.  After all this investment and you have no bees to keep every early Spring is no fun at all.  Learn to keep them alive and multiplying over 2-3 seasons then consider buying the flow hives. I'm sure you can skip the honey harvest so that you can continue to grow your hives. But if you have a harvest your first season then I'm sure you will enjoy using the flow hives too.  There is not much limit on what you can do with beekeeping.

My smoker is still brand new.  I've only use it a few times trying to tame those aggressive bees before.  Now that I have the most gentle type bees to keep, there is no need to use a smoker anymore.  Haven't use it in 5 season.  It is how you handle your bees and how gentle the bees are. There are the gentle type bees you can keep if you do some research on where to get your local bees.  Even when your local bees are that gentle you can still buy queens from the gentle queen rearing operation in another state.  Do some net search to find out more infos.   When I find the aggressive bees I just replaced the queen.  When I find the most gentle bees I will graft more daughters from her.  Being able to raise your own local queen is the most gratifying aspect of beekeeping consider the price of a queen will go up every year.  In the process you will learn a lot about honeybees and beekeeping too.  Every season I will graft from my gentlest queens with high productivity.  If you don't want to learn the grafting process then doing a hive split should do.  I like grafting because using the small homemade fridge incubator to hatch the queen cells will allow you to experience another level of artificial cells incubating.  You get to pick the color and healthy queens too.

To me, the most expensive piece of equipment are the bee boxes.  Since my bee environment is best for supporting queen rearing rather than honey production, I'm focusing on buying more 5 frame nucs than honey supers.  So after a season or 2 you should be able to tell what bee operation is better according to your local bee environment.  By then you should also have a gauge on what bee equipment to buy more for expansion. To get the cheapest hive boxes possible, I get on the mailing list of the major equipment suppliers.  Then during the holidays they would have a big sale to get rid of their year end excess inventory.  I then buy in bulk of assembled frames with plastic foundation and unassembled bee boxes.  It is a lot cheaper to buy the assembled frames than making them.  There are other equipment you can buy also. Assembling these boxes are not hard.  I just need some deck screws and a cordless drill for assembly over the winter months.  When Spring time finally arrives it is expansion time!

 

Wow! This is all such great information. I hope that this thread continues to gain input.

Just a few of my very novice thoughts... although hive boxes and supers may be priced at 12-15 bucks unassembled the cost of shipping is as much or oftentimes greater than the box itself. At very best I can find $26.00 delivered unassembled for either. That is obviously without frames. Now add the frames and shipping and you are getting to over $50.00 a box. It seems that is the accepted price of doing business and that is cool with me.

Living in a rural area as I do, does not bode well for traveling to a wholesaler/distributer because of time off work, time for travel, distance and fuel. Shipping costs are just a necessary evil.

Nonetheless, there are some purchase amounts from some suppliers that do allow for discounted or even free shipping and that may be the best option. It does require more money up front and more planning and generally takes out the build as you go option at least to some degree.

As far as the bees... I don?t necessarily feel uncomfortable hiving a swarm, I just have no experience in the same. I also anticipate that the swarms will not use the same work schedule as myself and actually being able to ?bee free? from work obligations when a swarm is available is probably not going to occur often for me. I highly doubt someone is just going to gift a new beekeeper bees so purchasing is the foreseeable option for me.

It appears that commercial packages are going for 200 or better without shipping according to pricing online. Local nucs seem like the better choice for my circumstances both in gaining time and saving money. My quote from my nuc provider is $160 for five frames and wooden nuc box with brood, queen and bees. That is actually a $10 deposit on the box which I plan to keep for my equipment surplus.

As I am learning as with any hobby: hunting, fishing, homesteading and now beekeeping, the prices seem to be not as much about how much something is worth but as much as the market will bare. And that is OK too...All of this just seems like fun to me!

Again, thank each of you for taking time to put your thoughts out for me and everyone else to consider. I am so glad I signed up on this forum!



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When it comes to ordering bee equipment, check out Mann Lake. On orders over $100, the shipping is free on most items. Your Best Buy on frames and foundation is to buy 100 of each. It is cheaper to buy 100 than it is to buy 55 of them. I find this at most Bee suppliers.
Jim

QuoteWhen it comes to ordering bee equipment, check out Mann Lake.

I'll second that.  Watch them for sales too.  They have had some good ones.  I also use their budget jacket and it holds up well.

Quote from: JR4AL on February 05, 2019, 12:13:10 PM
Wow! This is all such great information. I hope that this thread continues to gain input.

Just a few of my very novice thoughts... although hive boxes and supers may be priced at 12-15 bucks unassembled the cost of shipping is as much or oftentimes greater than the box itself. At very best I can find $26.00 delivered unassembled for either. That is obviously without frames. Now add the frames and shipping and you are getting to over $50.00 a box. It seems that is the accepted price of doing business and that is cool with me.

Living in a rural area as I do, does not bode well for traveling to a wholesaler/distributer because of time off work, time for travel, distance and fuel. Shipping costs are just a necessary evil.

Nonetheless, there are some purchase amounts from some suppliers that do allow for discounted or even free shipping and that may be the best option. It does require more money up front and more planning and generally takes out the build as you go option at least to some degree.

As far as the bees... I don?t necessarily feel uncomfortable hiving a swarm, I just have no experience in the same. I also anticipate that the swarms will not use the same work schedule as myself and actually being able to ?bee free? from work obligations when a swarm is available is probably not going to occur often for me. I highly doubt someone is just going to gift a new beekeeper bees so purchasing is the foreseeable option for me.

It appears that commercial packages are going for 200 or better without shipping according to pricing online. Local nucs seem like the better choice for my circumstances both in gaining time and saving money. My quote from my nuc provider is $160 for five frames and wooden nuc box with brood, queen and bees. That is actually a $10 deposit on the box which I plan to keep for my equipment surplus.

As I am learning as with any hobby: hunting, fishing, homesteading and now beekeeping, the prices seem to be not as much about how much something is worth but as much as the market will bare. And that is OK too...All of this just seems like fun to me!

Again, thank each of you for taking time to put your thoughts out for me and everyone else to consider. I am so glad I signed up on this forum!



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A good way to catch swarms when you are at work, is to put out multiple swarm traps. They work while you are at work. You go by and check the trap every week, or have a neighbor near the trap look for you. When bees move in, you set up an evening after dark to take the trap to your bee yard. It's really very simple. You can find excellent plans for how to build swarm traps with simple tools you already have. Google "letmbee." You'll find an example of plans there.

As for shipping, as has been suggested, order everything at once from one of the big suppliers like Mann Lake, and you will get free shipping.

Quote from: JR4AL on February 04, 2019, 01:58:21 AM
I just got to figuring and man this hobby can get expensive with a quickness!
FLow Hive 2 ($750.00), 10 frame Langstroth two deep and one super ($200.00) bucket and accessories: smoker, bee brush, hive tool, queen excluder, queen Cather, etc ($75.00) bee suit ($200), hive stand ($50.00)feeder ($45.00), I will be getting two nucs for ($160x2) and I anticipate to buy another brood box for the flow at ($65.00) a feeder for flow at ($35.00), and a commercial box for ($300.00). Total bill: $2040!!! Is this normal at all! Any ideas how to reduce the costs?

I can save you $750 right out the starting gate.... :wink:

Quote from: sc-bee on February 05, 2019, 11:46:11 PM

Quote from: JR4AL on February 04, 2019, 01:58:21 AM
I just got to figuring and man this hobby can get expensive with a quickness!
FLow Hive 2 ($750.00), 10 frame Langstroth two deep and one super ($200.00) bucket and accessories: smoker, bee brush, hive tool, queen excluder, queen Cather, etc ($75.00) bee suit ($200), hive stand ($50.00)feeder ($45.00), I will be getting two nucs for ($160x2) and I anticipate to buy another brood box for the flow at ($65.00) a feeder for flow at ($35.00), and a commercial box for ($300.00). Total bill: $2040!!! Is this normal at all! Any ideas how to reduce the costs?

I can save you $750 right out the starting gate.... :wink:

I see what you did there! Well played sir! Well played!


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If possible you should get a mentor or join a bee club just for the extra support that could be provided. If you really want to wear a bee suit the big box hardware stores sell a full reusable coverall for about ten dollars. I'm a Good Will white dress shirt with bee gloves type guy when pulling honey, for inspection it's just a tee shirt and gloves with a smoker. A frame grabber and good hive tool along with a smoker really helps, smoke is your friend in bee keeping. Cinder blocks with a pallet works great for a multiple hive stand or just use the cinder blocks and lay some 4x4's across them. For equipment it's not rocket science, the bees really don't care as long as they are kept in a dry box with a way to get in and out. Good luck with getting started and good luck with your bees.

Quote from: Haveuseen1? on February 04, 2019, 06:41:16 PM
Honestly Beekeeping is about the least expensive hobby I have, and one of the most rewarding.  I would hate to even think about what I spend on boating, fishing, hunting, backpacking, kayaking, target shooting, and travel.

Just got back from the vet.  Routine physical and vaccinations for doggie.  Bees aren't that expensive.....

My daughter?s cat came home with the skin and fur removed from the tail. Neighbors dog grabbed it. The vet charged her $2000. To cut off the tail bone. Same cat had stomach ripped open. That cost $3000.
Bees are cheap. Actually in the long run they make money.
Jim

Cats are lucky at your house Jim.  :wink:

Good grief! That is one loved cat. I hope that cat gets well. It will take a whole lot of quart jars of honey to recoup that vet bill!


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Quote from: CoolBees on February 08, 2019, 10:56:07 PM
Cats are lucky at your house Jim.  :wink:

My daughter has her own family. I?m not crazy enough to pay $5000 dollars for a cat. If I took the cat to a country vet it would have been less than $1000. City vets think they are working on your child. County vets know it is a pet.
Jim

Quote from: sawdstmakr on February 09, 2019, 07:04:50 AM

Quote from: CoolBees on February 08, 2019, 10:56:07 PM
Cats are lucky at your house Jim.  :wink:

My daughter has her own family. I?m not crazy enough to pay $5000 dollars for a cat. If I took the cat to a country vet it would have been less than $1000. City vets think they are working on your child. County vets know it is a pet.
Jim

This is no longer an ordinary cat! This is now an Aristocat! 😊😁

Quote from: sawdstmakr on February 09, 2019, 07:04:50 AM

Quote from: CoolBees on February 08, 2019, 10:56:07 PM
Cats are lucky at your house Jim.  :wink:

My daughter has her own family. I?m not crazy enough to pay $5000 dollars for a cat. If I took the cat to a country vet it would have been less than $1000. City vets think they are working on your child. County vets know it is a pet.
Jim

Haha! At my house I expect the cats to be faster than the coyotes, and have lots of kittens to replace loses. Life's tough.
:happy:

Alan