( I'll try to post a picture)
Last year I closed my hives and left just About all the frames of honey for the bees over the winter. I saved one frame to test and taste. It looked normal when I strained it with cheese cloth. It had some air bubbles now, after a few months bottled up it looks like all air bubbles. Any idea?
Thanks Art
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If that is indeed air bubbles, then it fermented.
Probably had too much water content when bottled so it fermented :cry:
What does that mean?? I kept a very small jar as a sample of every year (2018) and it looks fine. No air bubbles. I pulled this jar out to use some honey to back sweeten some experimental peach wine I made this year and now look at it!!
So should I just throw it away?
Thanks,
Art
Use it to make mead. Freeze it until you are ready to use it.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 01, 2019, 09:46:35 PM
Use it to make mead. Freeze it until you are ready to use it.
Jim,
Really? I was going to "Backsweeten" some peach wine (Something else I'm new at) by adding honey because it was kinda strong in alcohol content (12.5%) and not sweet. They say to add honey or sugar after the mead stops fermenting and the honey will not turn to alcohol. Just make it sweeter. I'm going to study up but I think this will make it sweeter and just a little more stronger in alcohol content.
Thanks for the tip!
Art
You would need to add something (camden tab ) maybe to kill yeast to stop sfermentation before adding honey or sugar otherwise you?re liable to re-start fermentation with the addition
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Quote from: lastfling on April 02, 2019, 08:32:55 AM
You would need to add something (camden tab )
Yeah,
I decided to use it in something else. Too many complications and it's just as easy to add non fermented honey to backsweeten.
Thanks
Art
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 06, 2019, 01:58:44 AM
Quote from: lastfling on April 02, 2019, 08:32:55 AM
You would need to add something (camden tab )
Yeah,
I decided to use it in something else. Too many complications and it's just as easy to add non fermented honey to backsweeten.
Thanks
Art
It may still ferment if the yeast is not dead. If you do not heat up the honey first it will have live yeast in it. If all you want to do is sweeten it throw sugar in it.
Quote from: Acebird on April 06, 2019, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 06, 2019, 01:58:44 AM
Quote from: lastfling on April 02, 2019, 08:32:55 AM
You would need to add something (camden tab )
It may still ferment if the yeast is not dead. If you do not heat up the honey first it will have live yeast in it. If all you want to do is sweeten it throw sugar in it.
I going to use a little cane sugar. BTW Acebird.. all my bees are dead. Again this year. Just saw them today
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 06, 2019, 11:43:08 AM
BTW Acebird.. all my bees are dead. Again this year. Just saw them today
Oh no! I feel bad for you. Have you had someone look at those hives? It if very unusual for someone to have 100% losses every year unless there is some other disease besides mite infestation. I am sure you have checked for AFB. Put some pics up of the hives as they were wintered.
Flex,
Sorry to hear about your losses. I recommend you fill a kitchen trash can with a 200 parts per million floral to water mixture. That is one tablespoon of Clorox per gallon of water. Ringer all of the combs and frames in it and let them dry. This will kill any bacteria on the surfaces. I just did this myself to the equipment of some of the hives that I suspected were a problem.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: Acebird on April 06, 2019, 05:38:29 PM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 06, 2019, 11:43:08 AM
BTW Acebird.. all my bees are dead. Again this year. Just saw them today
Oh no! I feel bad for you. Have you had someone look at those hives? It if very unusual for someone to have 100% losses every year
I don?t even know where to start! This is year 6 and I have tried what I think is everything. At least they lasted longer than all the others this time. I have some pictures of last years winterization, I think. This is today. They did eat a lot of the sugar brick I made.
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Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 06, 2019, 06:44:07 PM
That is one tablespoon of Clorox per gallon of water. Ringer all of the combs and frames in it and let them dry. This will kill any bacteria on the surfaces.
Jim Altmiller
Jim,
Well, you know my plight from years ago. It is frustrating. I have never rinsed like you described. I usually just replace the frames with new and wipe down the hives. Do you think I have a bacteria every year? I do have wax moths in every hive every year because my hive are weak after swarming. They just look eerie today on the first day over 60 degrees
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Flex,
Are you saying your bees super swarm, swarming over and over until the mother hive is too weak to survive, every year before they die? That is a different problem all together.
I wrote about this several years ago.
In order for the bees to super swarm, they have to hold the queens in their cells.
When you suspect they are swarming, put your ear to the hives and listen.
If you hear queens piping, that means that the bees are holding the queens in there cells so that they can super swarm (swarm over and over again). When this is allowed to happen, there is a good chance that the original hive will not survive.
Find at least 10 to 15 queen, then slowly open the hive and inspect every frame and carefully open the queen cells. Place the queens in the cages. Go through the entire hive and find every Q cell. Pick the best one and put it back in the hive. If it is a very large hive you can make up a couple of splits. If you disturb the bees too much, they will stop tending to keep the queens in the cells and the queens will all hatch out in mass. If that happens, work fast to catch them all.
Have a small jar of alcohol ready to put any dead queens into. Use the alcohol for swarm traps.
Good luck.
Jim
Hives look like two mediums. Too small for overwintering in MI. If you are buying bees and they swarm in the first year they don't stand much of a chance to survive the winter. You are doing something or not doing something that causes them to swarm. Just to recap on a new hive. You can't take a drop of honey until you have two solid boxes of honey above a two box brood chamber. If you try to feed them through winter I predict they will fail every time.
Being next to a lake that gets fogged in regularly is not ideal.
the location looks too moist to me, too.
swarming: at least for the european bees I know in our climate it is quite normal for a hive to swarm several times. first, the large swarm with the old mom. after that several smaller ones with unmated queens. there is nothing like "holding the queens in their cells" around here. never heard of that. they co-exist and then take flight with some bees.
so....
maybe they didn`t get enough room so you get so much swarming tendencies? meaning: if the brood-nest clogs up with honey (no supers, supers with no comb, maybe even without foundation?), they can`t breed any more and ... leave.
as for swarming and a dwindling hive: if a large "pre"-swarm and several small "after"-swarms go off, it should have been one heck of a hive. there will be plenty of brood in the old box. no reason to dwindle at all!
if they dwindle, they got a problem. probably: varroa.
when a swarm goes off, or several, let`s say, half the number of adult bees just for math`s sake, they take appr. 5% of the varroa along. 90% is in the brood. so all of a sudden, the ratio varroa to bees increases quite a bit. if the hives haven`t been treated right the fall and winter before, they got too much now and if you don`t really control them, they will dwindle because sick bees don`t breed good bees. so it crashes evtl.
get another source for your bees, keep an eye on varroa (alcohol wash, not your natural eye) and treat fittingly to time of year and condition of the hive.
honey was too moist. harvested too early or stored not fittingly. one or two days in the comb at your lake-site before extracting or letting it sit around in a strainer will do it, too. I got a moist environment, too. I use an air-dehydrater now, cause I cant extract that fast.
BF,
Have you ever heard your queens piping in the hive. If so the bees are keeping the queens locked in their cells. As fast as the queen cuts the cap off the bees seal it up. I know this because I have an observation hive. The bees swarmed 3 times and I could still hear queens piping. I could hear 3 different sounding queens so I had 4 queen cages ready. I ended up finding 11 queens and I missed one. They were all still in their cells. When I disturbed the bees guarding the queens the queens would cut the cap open and craw out.
Jim Altmiller
interesting!
yes, I have heard them piping and collected queens, too. But most were running around.
When you smoke the hive and begin taking it apart the bees keeping the queens in their cells stop doing it and you have a bunch of queens emerging while you are in the hive.
Jim
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 07, 2019, 07:05:47 AM
Flex,
Are you saying your bees super swarm, swarming over and over until the mother hive is too weak to survive, every year before they die? That is a different problem all together.
Jim,
I'm not sure if that's what it is or not. I have several problems but every hive I have ever had has swarmed. I've done ton's of things to keep them from swarming except split the hive before. I was going to get help with that from this forum this year but I lost all my bees. I've added supers, fed them, not fed them, taken supers away, added supers and moved frames of brood to the upper level, etc. I haven't destroyed queen cells or clipped queen wings. Remember, I'm still learning and only been at this 6 years but I've never had a hive make it through winter...wrap or not, feed or not.
I've always used package bees but I have got them from several different locations, mail order and pick up from my local club. They have been helpful too. I've caught 2 swarms from the same location where my bees swarm, the tree RIGHT next to my hive. One died (I remember, I did split that one with newspaper) the other swarmed AGAIN and the rest of that hive died during the winter. I watched one of my hives swarm to that tree and within an hour all flew and took over the hive next to it. No lie! I have pictures of that somewhere.
I have wax moths every year because my hives are weak after they swarm. I've never seen a hive beetle. I look for bad brood I don't see them. I'll try to send some pictures of queen cells when I add supers. I have a lot of problems but my biggest is swarming. I'll kill all the bacteria by our method and start all over again. Destroy the left over honey frames? I do have one package order coming. After 6 years and few thousand dollars, that's all I can afford right now!
Quote from: Acebird on April 07, 2019, 09:41:26 AM
Hives look like two mediums. Too small for overwintering in MI. If you are buying bees and they swarm in the first year they don't stand much of a chance to survive the winter. You are doing something or not doing something that causes them to swarm. Just to recap on a new hive. You can't take a drop of honey until you have two solid boxes of honey above a two box brood chamber. If you try to feed them through winter I predict they will fail every time.
Being next to a lake that gets fogged in regularly is not ideal.
I don't take any honey, ever from my hives. There's never any honey to take! That fermented honey I took? that was one frame from the 3rd super. The rest of the super was empty. I had 4 supers on. 2 were empty. That's why I winterized with just that brood box and a super of honey. I was told not to add another super for the winter if it's empty? So I put a bee blanket on and fed them.
That picture was usual with the fog cuz it was the first hot day. I picked that spot from advise from this forum. Nice lake with a gradual entrance. Partial sun and shade, mostly shade. Hives face South. Apple orchard 3 miles away with plenty of farm fields. No other beekeepers for miles. Elevated hive on stands for skunks. Tilted for winter drainage. Two entries for air flow.
I dunno! I'll keep trying (see above post) I'm too old to quit! <grin!>
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 07, 2019, 10:33:56 AM
the location looks too moist to me, too.
honey was too moist. harvested too early or stored not fittingly. one or two days in the comb at your lake-site before extracting or letting it sit around in a strainer will do it, too. I got a moist environment, too. I use an air-dehydrater now, cause I cant extract that fast.
Actually it's pretty dry. That was a bad pic with fog from the land as the first hot day. I didn't harvest any honey. I never have a chance! That was a solo frame from the 3rd super that otherwise was empty. I really do need to study up on varroa mite control. I have been eyeballing it cuz I don't know much about controlling them anyway. I'll send a close up eyeball...does look clean but I know that's deceiving...
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 07, 2019, 09:43:51 PM
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 07, 2019, 07:05:47 AM
Flex,
Are you saying your bees super swarm, swarming over and over until the mother hive is too weak to survive, every year before they die? That is a different problem all together.
Jim,
I'm not sure if that's what it is or not. I have several problems but every hive I have ever had has swarmed. I've done ton's of things to keep them from swarming except split the hive before. I was going to get help with that from this forum this year but I lost all my bees. I've added supers, fed them, not fed them, taken supers away, added supers and moved frames of brood to the upper level, etc. I haven't destroyed queen cells or clipped queen wings. Remember, I'm still learning and only been at this 6 years but I've never had a hive make it through winter...wrap or not, feed or not.
I've always used package bees but I have got them from several different locations, mail order and pick up from my local club. They have been helpful too. I've caught 2 swarms from the same location where my bees swarm, the tree RIGHT next to my hive. One died (I remember, I did split that one with newspaper) the other swarmed AGAIN and the rest of that hive died during the winter. I watched one of my hives swarm to that tree and within an hour all flew and took over the hive next to it. No lie! I have pictures of that somewhere.
I have wax moths every year because my hives are weak after they swarm. I've never seen a hive beetle. I look for bad brood I don't see them. I'll try to send some pictures of queen cells when I add supers. I have a lot of problems but my biggest is swarming. I'll kill all the bacteria by our method and start all over again. Destroy the left over honey frames? I do have one package order coming. After 6 years and few thousand dollars, that's all I can afford right now!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190408/07e83b0c402a31229ce0127d45e44f5c.jpg)
Jim,
When I see these what I think are queen cells, I start making room BUT they refuse to go up a super even when I pull a frame of brood. THEN the wax moth occupy the 3rd super I add.
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Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 07, 2019, 09:56:40 PM
Quote from: Acebird on April 07, 2019, 09:41:26 AM
Hives look like two mediums. Too small for overwintering in MI. If you are buying bees and they swarm in the first year they don't stand much of a chance to survive the winter. You are doing something or not doing something that causes them to swarm. Just to recap on a new hive. You can't take a drop of honey until you have two solid boxes of honey above a two box brood chamber. If you try to feed them through winter I predict they will fail every time.
Being next to a lake that gets fogged in regularly is not ideal.
I don't take any honey, ever from my hives. There's never any honey to take! That fermented honey I took? that was one frame from the 3rd super. The rest of the super was empty. I had 4 supers on. 2 were empty. That's why I winterized with just that brood box and a super of honey. I was told not to add another super for the winter if it's empty? So I put a bee blanket on and fed them.
That picture was usual with the fog cuz it was the first hot day. I picked that spot from advise from this forum. Nice lake with a gradual entrance. Partial sun and shade, mostly shade. Hives face South. Apple orchard 3 miles away with plenty of farm fields. No other beekeepers for miles. Elevated hive on stands for skunks. Tilted for winter drainage. Two entries for air flow.
I dunno! I'll keep trying (see above post) I'm too old to quit! <grin!>
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190408/3736fb701c90e44b27140a170960b78b.jpg)
Acebird,
Here?s one of the swarm that left one hive and took over the one next to it
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Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 07, 2019, 10:02:20 PM
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 07, 2019, 10:33:56 AM
the location looks too moist to me, too.
honey was too moist. harvested too early or stored not fittingly. one or two days in the comb at your lake-site before extracting or letting it sit around in a strainer will do it, too. I got a moist environment, too. I use an air-dehydrater now, cause I cant extract that fast.
Actually it's pretty dry. That was a bad pic with fog from the land as the first hot day. I didn't harvest any honey. I never have a chance! That was a solo frame from the 3rd super that otherwise was empty. I really do need to study up on varroa mite control. I have been eyeballing it cuz I don't know much about controlling them anyway. I'll send a close up eyeball...does look clean but I know that's deceiving...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190408/0693994b3d706d12150522a6b0baf7d7.jpg)
BlackForrest,
Of course I don?t know what I?m looking for but can you see any varroa mites? Can you tell if most of those are drones?
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flex, you REALLY need to study up on bees. or let the bees be in other hands and give up on it.
there are no drones on that comb.
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 07, 2019, 10:07:21 PM
Jim,
When I see these what I think are queen cells, I start making room BUT they refuse to go up a super even when I pull a frame of brood. THEN the wax moth occupy the 3rd super I add.
When you see queen cells it is too late. Even the most experienced beekeeper can not stop them from swarming. At this point you split and make more hives.
Your problem is not disease or mites. By your own words it is swarming. That means you are doing something wrong or you are not doing something right at the right time.
I am sure this advice is contrary to any other advice but stop the dang feeding. You should have more then enough drawn comb after 6 years that you don't need to. If you need to feed then your location does not have enough nectar to support bees. If that is the case you are beating your head against the wall. It is much harder to get timing right when you feed unless you are selling your bees off. With drawn comb I would expect your hives to grow to 6 or 7 boxes high, minimum in one season without feeding.
The only other problem I see is apples. Apples are a mono crop that is heavily sprayed. However poisons and pesticides do not cause swarming.
Concentrate on only one hive. No point in continually throwing money at the hobby.
Quote from: Acebird on April 08, 2019, 09:03:43 AM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 07, 2019, 10:07:21 PM
By your own words it is swarming. That means you are doing something wrong or you are not doing something right at the right time.
I am sure this advice is contrary to any other advice but stop the dang feeding.
Good advice...better advice than giving up...
I do think if I can stop the swarming, I will be ok. That's what I'll concentrate on this year with the one hive. Also, I live where my bees are now. Still dealing with Multiple Myeloma Cancer BUT I'm not on chemo right now so I can at least move! Hey! thanks for staying with me all these years. (I may post every day but we will get it right this time!
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 06, 2019, 06:44:07 PM
That is one tablespoon of Clorox per gallon of water. Ringer all of the combs and frames in it and let them dry. This will kill any bacteria on the surfaces.
Jim Altmiller
Jim,
I'm going out to rinse them in Clorox water now. In the past, I would just throw away the frames and get new ones but that's getting expensive. What about if there are frames of honey left? Keep them? Freeze them for the wax moths? Or dump them? I have used them in swarm traps until somebody told me not to.
Thanks,
Art
Quote from: Acebird on April 08, 2019, 09:03:43 AM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 07, 2019, 10:07:21 PM
Jim,
When I see these what I think are queen cells, I start making room BUT they refuse to go up a super even when I pull a frame of brood. THEN the wax moth occupy the 3rd super I add.
When you see queen cells it is too late. Even the most experienced beekeeper can not stop them from swarming. At this point you split and make more hives.
Your problem is not disease or mites. By your own words it is swarming. That means you are doing something wrong or you are not doing something right at the right time.
I am sure this advice is contrary to any other advice but stop the dang feeding. You should have more then enough drawn comb after 6 years that you don't need to. If you need to feed then your location does not have enough nectar to support bees. If that is the case you are beating your head against the wall. It is much harder to get timing right when you feed unless you are selling your bees off. With drawn comb I would expect your hives to grow to 6 or 7 boxes high, minimum in one season without feeding.
The only other problem I see is apples. Apples are a mono crop that is heavily sprayed. However poisons and pesticides do not cause swarming.
Concentrate on only one hive. No point in continually throwing money at the hobby.
the idea of swarming as a cause of hive death seems absurd to me. swarming is a natural thing to happen. the parent hive will easily build up again. that is the way mother nature has set it up for the bees.
swarming happens in spring.
if it might be understood: swarming will not kill all hives 6 years in a row. thats plain ridiculous.
absconding in late summer or fall is another thing completely and will have its reasons in mites mostly.
so...
flex doesn`t do any swarm-prevention or hindering swarms. that will give less honey, no doubt.
btw: giving more room with swarm cells won`t help you a bit.
also, LOOKING for mites on the combs or bees is not the right thing. once you see mites, even "only" one or two, it might be too late already. there are thousands of mites in that hive then already. they sit on the underside of the bees, well hidden. you might not even see them if you turned the bees around. you just got lucky to have seen a mite or two being on its way to somewhere else.
do alcohol washes or use screened bottoms with drawers underneath. and know how to interpret what you see and count and know how to react - according to the state the bees are in and/or season.
if you don`t know drones from workers, DO read up on the whole subject of bees. you got some serious gaps in your knowledge! I am saying this on behalf of the bees.
btw:
some caugt a swarm and kept it without treatment. those "feral" bees (might not be feral at all) start with a low mite load - for the reason of the swarming process, s. above - and might make it one yeear and thru the first winter. after that they might not any more.
BFB,
With no SHBs around, hives swarming over and over are probably not a problem. Here when a hive swarms the, SHBs act like they own the hive and wander around un harassed. It takes a few days for the bees to get back to corralling them and start removing their eggs and larvae. When the hive swarms over and over, the number of bees gets low and the SHBs end up winning the race and slime the hive. I have witnessed this with my observation hive on 2 occasions.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 08, 2019, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: Acebird on April 08, 2019, 09:03:43 AM
Quote from: FlexMedia.tv on April 07, 2019, 10:07:21 PM
the idea of swarming as a cause of hive death seems absurd to me. swarming is a natural thing to happen. the parent hive will easily build up again. that is the way mother nature has set it up for the bees.
swarming happens in spring.
I agree. It is natural. I haven't seen any swarming in the Spring here. The only swarming I have seen happens the last week of June. Almost like clockwork. I have never seen a swarm that didn't happen in the same big tree Just to the West of my hives. The swarms that I caught was in that tree. The swarm the exited one hive and took over the other hive, went to that tree for an hour. It's so regular in June that I set up my GO PRO cameras and wait. I have filmed a few. It might be because I only use package bees and I install them when they come from our Club Late May.
if it might be understood: swarming will not kill all hives 6 years in a row. thats plain ridiculous.
absconding in late summer or fall is another thing completely and will have its reasons in mites mostly.
You are correct. I need to learn mite control. I have several chemicals from different manufactures, that I was shy to use, couldn't figure out how to use, Cancer took over my body and I almost died, then when I was healthy it was too late for this year. I DID sugar shake my hives but I don't know if that was effective or not.
flex doesn`t do any swarm-prevention or hindering swarms. that will give less honey, no doubt.
btw: giving more room with swarm cells won`t help you a bit.
I've been told that helped so I always start off with a brood box and two supers on the install and add another a month after. I can stop doing that if that isnt the answer.
if you don`t know drones from workers, DO read up on the whole subject of bees. you got some serious gaps in your knowledge! I am saying this on behalf of the bees.
I DO know my drones. I didn't finish the pictures of cells with 2 eggs my worker bees were laying for one story of why a hive died. I lost a hive because I lost my queen. Someone on this forum told me my have may have several drone but no queen cells if a worker bee takes over the laying. I wanted your expert advice from that picture. I didn't see any drones or mites. You didn't see any drones or mites. I know mites can be on the underbellies. That was a hive I sugar shaked. What is your opinion on that?
some caugt a swarm and kept it without treatment. those "feral" bees (might not be feral at all) start with a low mite load - for the reason of the swarming process, s. above - and might make it one yeear and thru the first winter. after that they might not any more.
Agree. I have to use chemicals this year.
Hi Jim,
SHB! Yeah, we don`t have them. Quite another matter. Sure that flex does not have that problem, either.
Hi flex,
end of June is really late for a swarm. never heard of that around here! In my rather chilly home-site we MAY have swarming beginning end of May, running into June. usually not at all...
at the warmer site the bees are at they would be at it already if it wasn`?t for a cool and rainy spell we got at the moment. latest end of April till end of May.
Adding (too much) room doesn`t really help. You need to give ENOUGH room. they should not have to clog up the brood-nest with honey. still means one can save on room somewhat.
give a super with drawn comb when the hives are really broiling with bees when you open the lid, the lid all covered with bees and dropping off when you take it off.
give a super also, when flow comes in and the upper frames in the brood-boxes are filling. if you got cherries (lots) , bloom of cherry will be the time. otherwise... maybe dandelion? maybe canola? lots of maple?
if the bees don`t need it for their number or for storing honey, it is just a nuisance to them and it will stay empty (few bees running around).
I like to have my boxes broiling with bees up to the top. makes for dryer honey, too. Also like my supers full...not half empty combs in the extraction room.
at my home, I usually super not before mid-may, when forest-honey may start. at the other site, I supered on the 31st of March. cherry. So YOU will have to decide. no recipes there....
adding empty supers is useless.
your site is too moist. it won`t cause hive deaths, but a weak develepemnt in spring and fall. less honey, less fun.
you are probably right about the cause for late swarming: package bees over and over. when the hives grow large, take a couple brood-combs with bees to make a split. get a queen cell from somewhere so it will have a good queen.
treating with sugar is not enough. might as well pray (only). (like a priest in our valley once said to a lady asking him for advice: her garden wouldn`t produce, although she prayed all the time for it. so the priest looked at it and said: "it takes some manure, too.") I use organic acids only. no "chemicals". but do whatever is best and easiest for you.
I wish you good health, but to your bees, too! if you keep them, they are your responsibility.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 09, 2019, 05:04:06 AM
Hi Jim,
SHB! Yeah, we don`t have them. Quite another matter. Sure that flex does not have that problem, either.
Hi flex,
end of June is really late for a swarm. never heard of that around here! In my rather chilly home-site we MAY have swarming beginning end of May, running into June. usually not at all...
at the warmer site the bees are at they would be at it already if it wasn`?t for a cool and rainy spell we got at the moment. latest end of April till end of May.
Adding (too much) room doesn`t really help. You need to give ENOUGH room. they should not have to clog up the brood-nest with honey. still means one can save on room somewhat.
give a super with drawn comb when the hives are really broiling with bees when you open the lid, the lid all covered with bees and dropping off when you take it off.
give a super also, when flow comes in and the upper frames in the brood-boxes are filling. if you got cherries (lots) , bloom of cherry will be the time. otherwise... maybe dandelion? maybe canola? lots of maple?
if the bees don`t need it for their number or for storing honey, it is just a nuisance to them and it will stay empty (few bees running around).
I like to have my boxes broiling with bees up to the top. makes for dryer honey, too. Also like my supers full...not half empty combs in the extraction room.
at my home, I usually super not before mid-may, when forest-honey may start. at the other site, I supered on the 31st of March. cherry. So YOU will have to decide. no recipes there....
adding empty supers is useless.
I think if I stop feeding them that may help. Even my wife is in agreement with that. She wants them to fend for themselves. When I first started every one told me to feed. They also said package bees don?t swarm the first year!
your site is too moist. it won`t cause hive deaths, but a weak develepemnt in spring and fall. less honey, less fun.
Really it?s not during the summer. I?ll send you pics even by the lake. It?s pretty dry.
you are probably right about the cause for late swarming: package bees over and over. when the hives grow large, take a couple brood-combs with bees to make a split. get a queen cell from somewhere so it will have a good queen.
treating with sugar is not enough. might as well pray (only).
I promise I will learn that!
I wish you good health, but to your bees, too! if you keep them, they are your responsibility
This is the year! Thank you for staying with me on this. May you Acebird Black Forest will spend the time. That would be nice. BTW what do you think about Garden hive screen bottom boards. Every year I have wax moths eggs on the bottom
I have screened bottoms.
wax moths get to be a problem with too little bees in too much room.
summer is not the problem. (early) spring and (late) fall is.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 08, 2019, 04:01:31 PM
the idea of swarming as a cause of hive death seems absurd to me. swarming is a natural thing to happen. the parent hive will easily build up again. that is the way mother nature has set it up for the bees.
swarming happens in spring.
if it might be understood: swarming will not kill all hives 6 years in a row. thats plain ridiculous.
Must be different in the mother land...
Swarming can occur through out the whole flying season right up until the end of golden rod. A swarm in the fall is suicide but still happens to managed hives. Mother nature is cruel. Swarming can kill a parent hive very easily if it dwindles the hive late in the season or during a dearth. This can happen if the beekeeper is creating a false flow with sugar. Bees are not pets. You can't take care of them like a dog or a cat.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 08, 2019, 04:24:56 PM
When the hive swarms over and over, the number of bees gets low and the SHBs end up winning the race and slime the hive.
Jim, it doesn't matter whether it is SHB, wax moth, varoa or robbing. If a hive swarms over and over and the beekeeper is not right there to down size the hive and reduce the entrance it is pretty much doomed is a short period of time. A managed hive must be expanded and contracted with critical timing. A natural hive never does expand or contract. But natural hives are usually small in comparison to managed hives.
Quote from: Acebird on April 09, 2019, 08:50:25 AM
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 08, 2019, 04:01:31 PM
the idea of swarming as a cause of hive death seems absurd to me. swarming is a natural thing to happen. the parent hive will easily build up again. that is the way mother nature has set it up for the bees.
swarming happens in spring.
if it might be understood: swarming will not kill all hives 6 years in a row. thats plain ridiculous.
Must be different in the mother land...
Swarming can occur through out the whole flying season right up until the end of golden rod. A swarm in the fall is suicide but still happens to managed hives. Mother nature is cruel. Swarming can kill a parent hive very easily if it dwindles the hive late in the season or during a dearth. This can happen if the beekeeper is creating a false flow with sugar. Bees are not pets. You can't take care of them like a dog or a cat.
there may very well be differences in climate.
one other thing which is overlooked a lot is an inhomogenious breed of bees in ones posession. it serves for a pro-longed swarming period. my bees are usually done with it in 4 weeks at the most. I don`t lift an excluder afterwards any more. from other beeks I hear of swarming-seasons which last 6 or sometimes 8 weeks.
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 09, 2019, 06:49:46 AM
I have screened bottoms.
wax moths get to be a problem with too little bees in too much room.
summer is not the problem. (early) spring and (late) fall is.
If I have stronger hives, they shouldn?t be a problem even if they nest on the underside
Flex??..Take a cup of bees and some comb and send to the below address. They will tell you what problems may exist in your hives if any. Takes about a week and it's FREE.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-area/beltsville-md-barc/beltsville-agricultural-research-center/bee-research-laboratory/docs/how-to-submit-samples/
Bee Disease Diagnosis
Bee Research Laboratory
10300 Baltimore Ave. BARC-East
Bldg. 306 Room 316
Beltsville Agricultural Research Center - East
Beltsville, MD 20705
Quote from: billdean on April 09, 2019, 08:43:48 PM
Flex??..Take a cup of bees and some comb and send to the below address. They will tell you what problems may exist in your hives if any. Takes about a week and it's FREE.
Bill!
There you are...How have you been? Bees dead or alive? They are already in the trash, comb and all but I can take them out if that?s ok
Dead..the link will tell you how and every thing you need to know. I have been doing good.
https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-area/beltsville-md-barc/beltsville-agricultural-research-center/bee-research-laboratory/docs/how-to-submit-samples/
I would not throw my comb away until I have heard from Beltsville!
Quote from: Acebird on April 09, 2019, 08:50:25 AM
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 08, 2019, 04:01:31 PM
the idea of swarming as a cause of hive death seems absurd to me. swarming is a natural thing to happen. the parent hive will easily build up again. that is the way mother nature has set it up for the bees.
swarming happens in spring.
if it might be understood: swarming will not kill all hives 6 years in a row. thats plain ridiculous.
Must be different in the mother land...
Swarming can occur through out the whole flying season right up until the end of golden rod. A swarm in the fall is suicide but still happens to managed hives. Mother nature is cruel. Swarming can kill a parent hive very easily if it dwindles the hive late in the season or during a dearth. This can happen if the beekeeper is creating a false flow with sugar. Bees are not pets. You can't take care of them like a dog or a cat.
Ace, a swarm in the Fall is most likely an abscond, not a typical swarm.
Comb from diseased hives - or any crashed hive - should be melted, the wax boiled in a special gadget for hours (the manufactureres of foundation can do this) to be able to reuse it.
If this is not done, they ought to be burned or buried deep.
otherwise diseases might spread as bees will jumb onto anything that smells of bees and carry the disease back to sound hives. NOt necessarily yours, but this is a matter of courtesy.
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 09, 2019, 11:26:32 PM
Ace, a swarm in the Fall is most likely an abscond, not a typical swarm.
Not if halve of the hive is still there.
Quote from: billdean on April 09, 2019, 10:51:58 PM
Dead..the link will tell you how and every thing you need to know. I have been doing good
Great!
Thanks fort the tip. That?s what I will do
Art
You will get 2 reports. One for the bees, looking for mites and nosema. The other for the comb looking for AFB, EFB. That is your starting point. If all comes back ok reuse the frames of comb. They will build quickly if they are not drawing comb.
Do an inspection once a week until you start to figure things out. Check the hive bottoms for charged queen cups starting around the 15th of May or sooner if the weather starts warming. Check for back filling of the brood nest, and excesses amount of brood where the queen has no place to lay. Put your supers on early in anticipation of the flow. May 1 is not too early. Don't use a queen excluder between the supers and the hive bodies. That way she will always have room to move up if she needs to. Don't worry about the lake. Michigan is all swamp land and lakes with 100% humidity daily, and we have successful colonies year after year.
Looking at the one picture of the feed tray on the top of your box I think I see wax paper under the sugar. I would not do that. You are creating a vapor barrier above the bees or a moisture problem. You want the the sugar to absorb the moisture not transfer it back on the bees. Preferably don't even put sugar or winter patties on until you know they may need them. There are warmer days in January , February and March to check on food supply. If lite feed.
Quote from: billdean on April 10, 2019, 02:02:37 PM
You will get 2 reports. One for the bees, looking for mites and nosema. The other for the comb looking for AFB, EFB. That is your starting point. If all comes back ok reuse the frames of comb. They will build quickly if they are not drawing comb.
Do an inspection once a week until you start to figure things out. Check the hive bottoms for charged queen cups starting around the 15th of May or sooner if the weather starts warming. Check for back filling of the brood nest, and excesses amount of brood where the queen has no place to lay. Put your supers on early in anticipation of the flow. May 1 is not too early.
My package bees come May 5, 2019. I?ll be a little behind as usual. I?m only going with one this year but I will put out a few swarm traps and treat if I catch any. 6 years ago before I started I would watch bees swarm to that same tree in the pic every year. Can?t explain it but every year since, my bees swarm to that tree and swarms from other areas swarm there.
Looking at the one picture of the feed tray on the top of your box I think I see wax paper under the sugar. I would not do that.
Yup. I used wax paper just as the example told me too. Won?t do that again. Wonder if that contributed to the small amount of honey I had being fermented? I think I fed them right when I closed for the year, November.
I?m mailing my sample out tomorrow. I think I?ll learn a lot from this. I?ll let you know!
Thanks!
Art
Thanks to Bill for the Lab tip. I sent 100 bees and a slice of comb from both my Purple Hive and Yellow Hive.
According to the lab, my Purple hive died due to:
Nosema disease 17.75 Million nosema spores per bee
Varroa mite 5.6 Varroa present per 100 bees
NO Foul Brood
According to the lab my Yellow hive died due to:
Varroa mite 2.7 present per 100 bees
NO Nosema disease
NO Foul Brood
I am going to research on line (and the 10 bee books I've purchased over the years) to learn how to properly treat for Nosema and Varroa mites. I don't have any Nosema control on hand so I'll have to get some. I have Oxalic Acid Dihydrate, Mite away quick strips, and Apivar for Varroa that I didn't use from last year. I need to find out what it best.
I have one package bee set coming May 5th and that's all I'm going to start with. I have one swarm catcher out now and if I catch one, I'll treat it and keep it. Once I get a handle on the treatment, I'll control the swarm and I think I'll be ok! Still open for suggestions if you have the time.
Thanks!
Art
Quote from: billdean on April 10, 2019, 02:02:37 PM
Michigan is all swamp land and lakes with 100% humidity daily,
Never knew Michigan was a jungle.
I agree with billdean, stop the feed. I would also avoid putting on a winter blanket box. Instead provide ventilation. Try to locate the hive in as much sun as you can get.
Flex?..I am glad you got your report back from Beltsville. Sound like now you know what you have to do. As far as Nosema I am not sure what to do. I have little knowledge of it, never run into it myself. I am sure people like Micheal bush and Palmer and some others may be able to steer you in the right direction. I am not sure if a bleach and water solution on the frames would kill this or not. If it would, it would be great to reuse your already drawn frames of comb. Maybe some more experienced will chime in shortly. You have to keep after those mites. On the package install I would use the Oxalic Acid vapor treatment on about day 4 or 5 of your install. Then treat them at a sign of build up through the summer and again after you take any honey off by late July or early august. The good thing is no AFB or EFB! Good luck
Quote from: Acebird on April 30, 2019, 09:00:09 AM
Quote from: billdean on April 10, 2019, 02:02:37 PM
Michigan is all swamp land and lakes with 100% humidity daily,
Never knew Michigan was a jungle.
I agree with billdean, stop the feed. I would also avoid putting on a winter blanket box. Instead provide ventilation
I didn't know it was a jungle either, Acebird. Yeah, no more feeding or blankets. I think that had something to do with Noesma spores. I don't think I've had those before but I think 17.75 million per bee is a lot
Quote from: billdean on April 30, 2019, 09:08:01 AM
Flex?..I am glad you got your report back from Beltsville. Sound like now you know what you have to do. As far as Nosema I am not sure what to do. I have little knowledge of it, never run into it myself.
I am not sure if a bleach and water solution on the frames would kill this or not.
On the package install I would use the Oxalic Acid vapor treatment on about day 4 or 5 of your install. Then treat them at a sign of build up through the summer and again after you take any honey off by late July or early august. The good thing is no AFB or EFB! Good luck
I already bleached both hives just in case. My package bee ship date has been moved back due to the weather. May 10th. I have my treatments ready! (Really have to study up on the Nosema attack and hope it never happen again. That was nasty!)
Thanks for the help!
Art
Hopefully Bush and Palmer will chime in!
Nosema came probably just in the wake of the mite. Just my innocent notion.
I would melt down the combs and start with foundation. You can use the wax for foundation again. There are companies will make the foundation out of the wax for you.
Anyone wanting to understand nosema, start here:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nosema-ceranae/nosema-summaries-updates/
Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on May 01, 2019, 01:45:11 AM
Nosema came probably just in the wake of the mite. Just my innocent notion.
I would melt down the combs and start with foundation. You can use the wax for foundation again. There are companies will make the foundation out of the wax for you.
Blackforest,
That would have been a good idea but I burned all the frames and bleached the boxes to be sure. There were wax moths too.
Art
The only reason to burn equipment is AFB. AFB spores are very difficult to kill. Everything else is relatively easy to kill.
Quote from: Michael Bush on May 01, 2019, 09:27:21 AM
The only reason to burn equipment is AFB. AFB spores are very difficult to kill. Everything else is relatively easy to kill.
I wasn?t sure. Thanks for that info!
Art
I installed my Package Bees Sunday May 11th. This batch came from our local club order. On a side note, we've been advised to report any problems before 10:00pm tonight because the majority of members had problems with queens being released in the package BEFORE they could remove the cork or candy. Some wanted to mark them. Mine showed up in the cage by herself. I've always had 2 or 3 nurse bees in there with her but my cork this time was half open. They may have ecscaped and my queen was too big? This was different and came with a piece candy to replace the cork. Anyway, I'll see if she is released tonight.
I'll treat for varroa mites this Friday. I just noticed this time, I just have a brood box and a top. All the other years, I don't know why, I install the queen and immediately add a super. I didn't this time. When do I add another super?
Thanks,
Art
When your first hive body is about 80% full or so. Did you install them on new foundation or comb? Is this package a southern or california package?
Quote from: billdean on May 16, 2019, 09:28:18 PM
When your first hive body is about 80% full or so. Did you install them on new foundation or comb? Is this package a southern or california package?
New install package from SC into new foundation
It will be a while before you need to add another brood box. Are you feeding syrup? You need too! In a couple weeks look at it and see how much they've built out, keep notes on how many frames brood it has. It will get weaker, but by about the 3 or 4 week it should take off good.
Quote from: billdean on May 17, 2019, 09:18:29 AM
It will be a while before you need to add another brood box. Are you feeding syrup?
Hey Bill,
Not this time. I fed syrup all the other years. I do have some drawn frames with honey I froze cuz of the wax moths. I could have put those in there. I can put those in when I add the second brood box right?
For them to build that foundation out they need to have something to eat. I would put on a pint of syrup now. You don't have to feed them syrup for long. There is a little bit of a flow on now. Dandelions, apples, hawthorn. But they need something. A honey frame it you got it would be great too but put it in there now.
Sorry, I have some Freshmen like questions but do I replace the brood frame with a honey frame or add a Super with a honey frame? I do have a top pale feeder and some bee vitamins I could use...
Just sugar syrup would be fine. Feed through the hole in the inter cover. As far as the honey frame put it in slot 1 or 10 or if you have an 8 frame box slot 1 or 8. Do not add a super. Keep the bees in one box until they have it filled out 80% or so. Their first brood cycle should be about June 1. The next brood box will probably go one shortly before that. Keep an eye on things. It would not hurt to check every 7 or 8 days. With the flow coming on they will need a place to store their food and raise their brood so they could build up a little quicker. You may find they won't take much syrup and that's OK too. Its there if they need if. It doesn't take to much to starve a new package if you are not feeding and you get 3 or 4 days of bad weather. They have no food, no place to store food, so feed until they can get a little organized and start building their home.
I agree with billdean.
Ok, pail feeder it is with one old honey frame on number 8!
Flex????you really don't need both. You are not really looking for them to store a lot of sugar water. When starting a package on new foundation you need just enough feed to help them start building comb. Starving bee don't build comb well. As I said we are coming into a flow now it will probably not take much to help them out. But days like today they probably will not forage much because of the weather. So they need food. If it were me, I would just install the frame of honey and scratch the capping. As the honey leaks out a little bit the bee will put the honey where they need it. A pail feeder is great in the fall when you are trying to dump a lot of syrup into a hive to bring it up to weight but in the spring this not what you want.
Got it! I?ll place a honey frame in today. I need to look at them anyway. (I also sent you a private message )
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on May 01, 2019, 02:22:28 AM
Anyone wanting to understand nosema, start here:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/nosema-ceranae/nosema-summaries-updates/
The search to find out if the hive has Noesma is complicated! Have you tried it?
The easiest way to correctly inspect, test, and diagnose the pests and diseases of the honey bee is to call on your area apiculture inspector. ..... It it is their job to do so. They have the expertise, the equipment, and the resources. It is also free to the beekeeper.
Nosema is not difficult to confirm diagnoses. However it cannot be done without a microscope, some basic sampling procedures, and an eye for what looking at and looking for through the squinty eye though the scope.
So far so good with this package install. Thanks for the advice. I'll start a new thread with the progress.
Regards,
Art