Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

What to do? ...

I did some splits on 3/24. Checking on them today, I discovered that one of them ended up with my H1 queen ... because it was queenright, with fresh eggs, young brood, and she was marching around like ... a Queen. :cheesy:

I inspected H1 (my original hive - thus the H1 designation) and verified that there's no queen at the moment.

It's not a bad thing. H1 will produce a lot of honey in the next couple weeks as a result. Also, they will likely make their own queen shortly. ... but here's what got me thinking ...

In the H1 inspection, I noted that every empty cell was highly polished as the bees had prepared them for eggs to be laid. As such, if I reintroduce the Queen, she will lay many frames full of eggs in 3 or 4 days. ... with all those freshly laid eggs I could make more splits ...  :cool:

Question is, what the best method of reintroduction to get her back into H1?

The nuc she's in, has lots of eggs and young larvae now and could definitely raise a new queen.

I'm thinking of creating another nuc with a shaken swarm, introduce her to that after 24 hrs, and then use a newspaper combine via a Nuc Intro  board to get her back into H1.

Am I out-to-lunch? What's are some of the better ways to go about this?

Thank you for your thoughts in advance,
Alan

Alan,
You can just move her back to her original hive. They are queen less and she was their queen. I have put mated queens right into queen less hives directly with no problem. Just to put your mind at ease, put her in a queen cage and place it on top of the frames for a few minutes. Then do the finger test to see if she is being accepted.
Jim Altmiller

Jim
What is the finger test?
The nuc will end up with a nice queen from the H1 eggs.

I would just do a straight newspaper combine.

Here is the link to 2 videos that I made for checking if the bees are accepting your queen or not.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=52028.0
Alan wanted to put the queen back in H1. This is the fastest and easiest way to do it safely.
Jim

I would just leave the queen where she is and put a frame or 2 of the polished come in brood with her. In few days give back to original hive. Give queen another frame or 2. Better to have a strong hive make queens then a weak one. They will make several queen cells for your next splits or to have a queen bank.

Jim - I guess I'll be needing a queen cage after all. I thought I'd get away without one, but I'll need it at some point anyways. BTW - I had watched you video(s) previously. They are very helpful. Thanks for putting them together.

Alan

Ed - I like that idea. That way she could be very useful right where she is.

It's funny to me - I opened the nucs looking for capped queen cells on day 9. Instead I find a peaceful, dominant, queen, fresh eggs, and brood. Totally a WTH moment. I'm catching on quicker - only took me 10 seconds or so to figure out what happened. Haha! ... I bit longer to figure out where I should go from here though ... hahaha.

Least disruption is to leave her where she is.   

Or, pull 3 to 4 frames bees and all out of the center of H1. Pickup 3 to 4 frames bees and all from the nuc that the queen is on, leave her walking around with her brood and bees on those frames, and drop those frames into the empty space in H1.

And again, another way to re-introduce her to the original box per your original question, is to spray her with a mixture of sugar water and just enough honey bee healthy to give off a good scent. Also, spray the bees in the box that she will be returned. Simply spray a reasonable amount on top of and in between the frames. An old timer that does videos taught this to me. He says he has never had a queen rejected using this method. He just simply does as described and turns her loose and down in the box she goes.! Last year I was buying pollen from him.  His name is Tim Durham. Many years ago, while living in North Carolina, he got a call from Aunt Bea, of the Andy Griffin Show and did a cut out from her home. He says she was just as sweet in person as she played on the show. There are good suggestions here, any one should work. I would, if it were me, go with eds suggestion in this particular case.

Alan,
I had to introduce a queen to a hive on Wednesday. I only had a plastic queen cage and put her in it. I put it in the top of the hive and got no reaction at first. I left it there and after a while the bees covered it. The finger test was easy to move the bees but I was not sure if it was valid. The plastic cage does not provide a place for the bees to grab on to. I went and found a wood queen cage and transferred her into it. The bees again covered it. This time all but one were easy to move. I repeated the test a second time and they all moved. I removed the cork and let her out. She walked right in nice and easy.
I?m not sure it the plastic queen cages would allow the bees to hold. Always use a wood cage with the screen for this test.
Jim

When you get around to dispatching the queen put her in small jar with alcohol. I refrigerate. Not sure if you have to. You make bait lure with old queens to catch swarms.

Quote from: ed/La. on April 05, 2019, 08:34:13 AM
When you get around to dispatching the queen put her in small jar with alcohol. I refrigerate. Not sure if you have to. You make bait lure with old queens to catch swarms.

I have heard this before but I have not been told exactly how to use this as bait. How do you use this ed? Thanks for the tip.
Phillip

I go with THP. The risk is not worth it. Take a block of frames with the queen and drop her into the old hive if you want. but in a cage....it`s not worth it if its a good queen.
save on the cage in any of both options.
queen cells are "their queen" now, so they might not like the old one any more.

Some people crush queens before putting in alcohol. Did tip in solution and put in straw cut to length to slow evaporation. Same way many use lemon grass oil. I use both if I can. I would not buy it but I will make it.

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 05, 2019, 06:52:23 AM
Alan,
I had to introduce a queen to a hive on Wednesday. I only had a plastic queen cage and put her in it. I put it in the top of the hive and got no reaction at first. I left it there and after a while the bees covered it. The finger test was easy to move the bees but I was not sure if it was valid. The plastic cage does not provide a place for the bees to grab on to. I went and found a wood queen cage and transferred her into it. The bees again covered it. This time all but one were easy to move. I repeated the test a second time and they all moved. I removed the cork and let her out. She walked right in nice and easy.
I?m not sure it the plastic queen cages would allow the bees to hold. Always use a wood cage with the screen for this test.
Jim

Thanks Jim. I've watched the video you did on the finger test. Very good video. ... unfortunately I'm 1 queen cage short of following your advice. :grin: I've never actually seen a queen cage in real life.  :embarassed:

So in this case, I think I'll follow Ed's advice, and put clean polished frames in for a couple days, then pull them and distribute where needed to raise queens. I really like the daughters that this queen throws.  :grin:

Just some math behind the frames and timing, for consideration. 

Assuming you are running standard deep frames for the brood.  3500 cells per side, 7000 cells per frame.  The bees are going to fill and use 30%-40% of that for resources.  Nectar pollen, bee bread, cleaning/polishing.  Leaving 0.6*3500; 2100 per side, 4200 cells per frame available to the queen to lay in.   ( Hey! Jim look .... -42- )

A decent average queen will lay 1200-1400 a day, in good balmy weather and a busy buzzy rockin it out hive.  Some will do more some will do less.  If she is a good old queen, then let us just use 1200 as her lay rate.  Based on that it will take the queen 2100/1200 days per side or 4200/1200 days per frame to layout. ( 1.75 days per side, 3.5 days per frame )

The bees, assuming there are more than one of them on the frame working it, will certainly be able to prepare and polish the cells faster than the queen will lay them. So you can totally disregard the thought or concern about there being nice polished unused frames in the other hive body. It is not worth the effort or the disruptions to the nests to go shuffle those. Leave the bees to do what bees do with the combs.

If you would like to use her in the split as a brood factory, and for grafting new queens, that is a wonderful idea.  Ensure they have a constant supply of pollen and feed without having to do much foraging. Watch their stores level and if necessary feed the split she is in. 

As for when to harvest frames, the math is above.  Once per week you can pull 2 frames of brood out of her.  She may and will lay out just a bit more than 2 frames per week, but leave that extra bit with her.  Old bees do not raise brood well, and old bees die.  So she also needs her bees in the split constantly being replenished with new bees as the old ones die off.  A mistake folks make with brood factories is to pull all the brood each time, each week, then wonder why the brood factory crashed. Simple, she needs brood too! So ensure to leave her some.

Once a week pull 2 brood frames. Before you go stick the frame in a separate hive, graft a few larvae off the frame into cups to start some queen cells.  Put 4 to 6 of your grafted cups between the centre top bars of each split.  Then go put the frame into a hive that needs the boost.  Adding the grafting step gives you some practice and gets the splits drawing some cells into a place that you can move them if need be.  You can move the extra drawn QC cups from the successes to other splits that failed to start any.  It adds some fun factor and allows you to manage the cells easily without having to pull frames and cut cells out of the combs.  Just a thought.

Three important points / prerequisites.  1. She has enough bees to keep up with her to work the frames and raise the brood, and 2. there is copious amounts of feed (protein) right next to them.  3. Do not take all the brood each week. Ensure she is left a half frame of emerging brood each week.

Hope that helps!

HP - as always, your responses are thorough, knowledgeable, and very much appreciated!

I'll keep all that in mind. I see your point about disturbing the original hive all the time.

Thank you kindly.
Alan

Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 05, 2019, 09:31:49 AM
I go with THP. The risk is not worth it. Take a block of frames with the queen and drop her into the old hive if you want. but in a cage....it`s not worth it if its a good queen.
save on the cage in any of both options.
queen cells are "their queen" now, so they might not like the old one any more.

Blackforest - thanks for chiming in. I do like this queen. I think I'll leave her where she is and try to raise daughters from her for the rest of the season. Nothing else is worth the risk.

Cheers!

A quick update on this. Yesterday my daughter and I inspected several hives.

H1 is now queenright. We were lucky enough to spot her. She's laid up 4 frames with eggs. ... we stopped the inspection when we ran into her. No need to go further.

H6 (split containing Queen fron H1 that I decided to leave there) is doing well, but there is a fully developed Queen Cell. A close look at the existing queen, showed her wings are very tattered. She's laying well, so I'm thinking I may pull this queen cell to another nuc.

looks like a supercedure. you may try to take it to a nuke, but probably the old lady will quit pretty soon. watch out for this and be ready (with a cell or a queen).

Supercedure in progress.
My suggestion at this point would be to leave the cell in the hive and move the old tattered queen to a nuc with a small amount of bees and brood to support her. 
Let the hive requeen itself with the cell.  Keep the old queen as the safe backup contingency.  Should the hive requeening fail, you will have options.

X2 What TheHoneyPump said.

that`s what I wanted to imply. should have typed it all the way...
good luck.
supercedure-queens may well be the best to be had - if the old lady was a good one, that is.

Thank you Blackforest, Honey pump, and Cao.

That brings another New-Bee question - how to catch the queen? Delicately I'm sure. I know this is an age-old topic, but not one I've studied, or gotten prepared for - Dope! This should be fun ...   :embarassed:

jooost take the comb with the queen on it.

otherwise: I take em by the wings. there are special catching-devices. i only tried one and I was not so satisfied with it.

Get a plastic queen catcher. There are 2 plastic ones that I know of. One is soft plastic and the other is hard plastic. The hard plastic has a higher chance o hurting the queen and they break very easily. The soft ones are safer and very flexible and hard to break.
Jim Altmiller

Alan I have the stainless steel catchers, (clip type) and the hard plastic. I never use the stainless.  I go  with hard plastic and I like these the best.  Blackforest way is the way that pros seem to catch the queens. I have not built up enough confidence in my wing catching skills to do this. I am not sure I will not damage the wings. This was a problem for me when placing the breeder queen into the nicot grid. When the queen catcher is opened, it has a split or opening all the width of the clip making this especially tricky when placing a queen in a marking cage from a queen clip. So here is my solution. I opened the empty hard plastic clip wide enough for a queen to easily escape. Held it at this width after heating a straightened our paper clip and working the heated end of the paper clip through the clips sides, creating a hole enabling the clip to hold open at this desired width. I added a (flap) using duct tape doubled over so no bee would become stuck to the duct tape. Then I simply split the duct tape to the desired width creating the perfect size opening for the clip allowing the queen to go through only at the created pass. That way there is hardly any chance of her going anywhere except the desired place that I want her. No flying off but into the marking cage or nicot grid and I never touch her. Safe and absolutely effective. I simply hold the flap back when catching a queen. Once caught, I close the clip, fold the flap over covering the opening, open wide enough to insert the paper clip, open small opening part of flap with my finger in place so she can?t escape, but  this clip opening  to marking cage or nicot opening and let her walk right in. So easy a child can do it. Good luck. By the way, I have never seen this done so I have patent rights as proven an dated here haa haa .
Phillip

putting a queen in a cage...
...what I usually do, if I can`t hold her by the wings or in case I ever used one of the devices Jim and Philip described: I "throw" her into my hand, close it carefully (she can stay in there for a bit in case the cage ain`t ready). I form a circle with my forefinger wide enough for the queen and put the nicot-cage on top. she will crawl up and everything is fine.

Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on April 23, 2019, 02:23:55 AM
putting a queen in a cage...
...what I usually do, if I can`t hold her by the wings or in case I ever used one of the devices Jim and Philip described: I "throw" her into my hand, close it carefully (she can stay in there for a bit in case the cage ain`t ready). I form a circle with my forefinger wide enough for the queen and put the nicot-cage on top. she will crawl up and everything is fine.

blackforest, I have searched videos trying to find a really good close up of someone catching a queen by the wings and have yet to have found one. Sure there are several videos telling and showing how this is done but not zoomed in enough that a person, without experience or the aid of a mentor,  such myself, to do  me any good. This is something I would really like to see up close. 
Phillip

If I do not have a queen catcher, I will pick the queen up by her thorax and put her in the closed palm of my hand like Blackforest. It makes it easy to put her in a one handed queen catcher. Just open the area between your thumb and index finger and she will crawl right in.
Jim Altmiller

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 23, 2019, 07:21:19 AM
If I do not have a queen catcher, I will pick the queen up by her thorax and put her in the closed palm of my hand like Blackforest. It makes it easy to put her in a one handed queen catcher. Just open the area between your thumb and index finger and she will crawl right in.
Jim Altmiller

This is something I have yet built confidence in doing for the idea of mashing her. Have y'all ever killed one this way?  Maybe they are tougher than they appear? I sure  would like to handle them this way.
Phillip

Then start picking up drones on the comb with bees all around them. When I am in a Nuc that cannot support them, usually a swarm or a new split, I pick out all the drones and then crush them to make sure they cannot return. Just be careful not to squeeze the queens abdomen. You are going to have to be able to work with your bare hands before you can do this. Just smoke your hands before working in your hives.
Jim Altmiller

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 23, 2019, 08:17:47 AM
Then start picking up drones on the comb with bees all around them. When I am in a Nuc that cannot support them, usually a swarm or a new split, I pick out all the drones and then crush them to make sure they cannot return. Just be careful not to squeeze the queens abdomen. You are going to have to be able to work with your bare hands before you can do this. Just smoke your hands before working in your hives.
Jim Altmiller

Good advise, thanks Jim

Thank all of your for your insightful responses. I've bookmarked this so I can refer to it in the future.

For now, in the interest of time, I newspaper combined 2 smaller (queen unsuccessful) nucs onto this one on Sunday, to give this hive a boost before splitting again.

Today, I split them. The large queen cell was still capped thankfully. I found Mrs Tatters (ref her frayed wings) stomping around in the same spot she was before. After setting up the nuc for her, I simply layed my hive tool in front of her. She climbed on and I moved her to the new nuc where she climbed off. Short ride and she didn't seem to mind.

Then I switched places with the nucs so she will get all the returning field bees. The original nuc has plenty of nurse bees and capped brood. So we shall see what happens.

Next order I place, I'll include a queen catcher ... or 2.  :grin:

Man, with your bee  training abilities you do not need a queen catcher!!  lol That is the neatest trick I have heard of in bee keeping!!  I bet you was pleased and smiling!!

Haha Phillip, I just don't know no better!!  :cool: ... besides, with her tattered wings, I figured she wouldn't try to go far.

Truth be told, I had a tube at work that I figured would be perfect for the job ... so I left it at work ... like an idiot.  :grin:

Alan,
Old time beekeepers used to place a glass tube over the queens and they would craw in. My deceased father in law taught me that trick.
Jim Altmiller

Mrs Tatters. - Love it! 

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 24, 2019, 09:00:54 PM
Alan,
Old time beekeepers used to place a glass tube over the queens and they would craw in. My deceased father in law taught me that trick.
Jim Altmiller

:grin: Thanks Jim. It made simple country sense to me. ... except. ... I didn't bring it :embarassed: ...  :cool: ... maybe I'll try it next time.  :grin:

Skip over the tubes.  My experience is she does not walk INTO anything freely.  Put one of these catchers in your breast pocket whenever heading out to the bee yard. You will find it easy to use and exceptionally handy.  You will find more uses for it than you think. Get the steel one, for longevity and durability. The steel you will have for years. The plastic ones, you will have for half a spring season ... maybe. When it gets sticky and gummed up, put it in the dishwasher.

Alternative, just get really good at picking her up by the thorax ... gently.  Many folks grab the wings.  I prefer to go for her thorax, avoiding potential damage/injury to her wings. Keep a roller queen cage in your breast pocket.  Pick her up, pop her in the cage, then lay that on the top bars of the frames.  There she be, safe from injury from your antics and the bees know she is close and keep her warm.

Practice picking up gnarly riled up and p'ed off bees and putting them in the cage. If you are getting stung on the finger tips ... you are doing it wrong and need to practice some more.. ;)


Also to clarify on the queen catcher clip. You do not also need a queen cage. The purpose of the clip is not to cage queens.  Its purpose is to easily capture and safely hold her while you workover the hive. It is a REALLY handy beekeepers tool to have in your pocket. Open the clip. Set it over her lengthwise and down against the comb around her. Slowly let the clip close. The queen and the few bees around her are gently nestled into the clip. Once she is caught, just set the clip down on the top bars of a frame.  She is safe and freely moves around inside the clip while you work the hive. The spacing of the openings in the clip are queen-excluder size. The bees will go in and out of the clip, while the queen is kept inside it. To release her do the reverse. Finish off wreaking havoc all over the hive and there are mad bees everywhere. Put all the frames back in.  Get it all to the point that you are ready to close up.  Take the clip and hold it over the gap between frame top bars. Slowly open it and hold it onto the frame bars.  The queen walks out and down into the nest. Put the covers on. Walk away. Done done and done.
.

Ah-hah. That's what they look like. I've had trouble picturing them, and haven't researched them yet. HoneyPump, thank you. I will do that. Excellent advice. I'll practice on some hapless drones too.  :grin: ... ahhh the things to still to learn ... I really enjoy Bees.

There is a hard plastic queen catcher that will not last at all. There is a soft plastic queen catcher that are very durable and last for years. I still have the first one that I bought in 2012. The metal ones have sharp shearing sides that if you are not real careful, do a good job of cutting off bee parts. The soft plastic one is a lot safer.
Jim Altmiller

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 25, 2019, 07:50:28 AM
There is a hard plastic queen catcher that will not last at all. There is a soft plastic queen catcher that are very durable and last for years. I still have the first one that I bought in 2012. The metal ones have sharp shearing sides that if you are not real careful, do a good job of cutting off bee parts. The soft plastic one is a lot safer.
Jim Altmiller

I bought both. I do not use the stainless for the same reason Jim. Very sharp inside edges and I was concerned. I have the hard plastic see through clip and I love it!!  Looks like the one in the picture but is see through, making it easier to see the queen once she is caught. I?ve seen videos of folks using both. To make the clip easier and much more handy to get to, clip it to your shirt and no digging through the pockets when needed.,
Phillip

I had a hard plastic QC, lasted until the first time I leaned on the pocket it was in. The area where the wire hinge goes through the plastic is very fragile. I have put my soft plastic ones through a lot of abuse with no failures. 
Jim Altmiller

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 25, 2019, 11:34:51 AM
I had a hard plastic QC, lasted until the first time I leaned on the pocket it was in. The area where the wire hinge goes through the plastic is very fragile. I have put my soft plastic ones through a lot of abuse with no failures. 
Jim Altmiller

That is Experience talking! Thanks Jim, I hope that does not happen to me. But just in case it does, I found a package of four for $2.71 shipping free from China. So I bought 12 of these, three packages. When they arrived two weeks later I compared them to the Mann Lake  plastic one that I had already purchased. I could not visually see a different they look exactly the same including the casting crease. Therefore I am very happy to say the least.  Anytime I do a cut out, I placed the queen inside of one of these and put it in the box with the brood. I wait a day or so until I see bees 🐝 bringing in pollen before I release her. So far I have not had a Cut out colony abscond or leave. I might be wrong, but I contribute this to leaving the queen and the clip until above description is achieved. I?m sure this is common practice for you cut out people, but I added the extra for someone who may be new.
Phillip

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 22, 2019, 11:24:02 PM
Get a plastic queen catcher. There are 2 plastic ones that I know of. One is soft plastic and the other is hard plastic. The hard plastic has a higher chance o hurting the queen and they break very easily. The soft ones are safer and very flexible and hard to break.
Jim Altmiller

OK Jim. Guess what? Did a cut out late last week and my hard plastic queen catcher broke! And right where you said yours did! I don't have the soft plastic catcher but I do have two of the stainless steel ones as described by TheHoneyPump, so its stainless steel for me! Sharp edges and all! 
:grin: :grin:  :grin:
Phillip