There is an old saying in beekeeping that has a few variations but it goes something like this: ?Ask ten beekeepers, get twelve opinions.? Obviously beekeepers don?t always agree. But on some topics they get downright stubborn. You will find one group who adamantly insists that something can?t work and another group who say the exact opposite--that if you don?t do it the bees will all die.
Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping, the odds are both sides are wrong. Especially if both are telling you there is no other way that works except theirs and they are doing opposite things. And especially if the beekeeping world is very divided on the issue. In other words there are a lot of people on both sides of the issue. People often get their deeply held opinions from their own experience and the results of their own experience is often very strongly influenced by the current conditions. For instance, if it was a flow or a dearth results would be very different. Most things seem to work in a flow. Most things seem to fail in a dearth. There is also just the luck of the draw. Many beekeepers when they start make the mistake of trying one thing with one hive and a different thing with the other hive and then coming to a conclusion that is based on something unrelated. Any beekeeper who has ever treated two hives identically knows that the results are not identical.
Logic says that there can?t be that many beekeepers with opposite views of something that both insist the other view cannot work at all. So if you?re trying to decide on one of these kinds of issues, think through the differences of the people with those opinions. What do the people on each side have in common? If the only thing they have in common is they are beekeepers, maybe it just doesn?t matter, but if most of one side are from a cold climate and most of the other side are not, you might want to consider that in your decision. The same for other differences. Maybe one side tend to be commercial and the other hobbyists. If you can?t find any difference, take your pick or experiment. But don?t lose too much sleep over it. If either of the two failed much of the time there wouldn?t be so many people advocating for that side.
http://bushfarms.com/beescontrary.htm
My version of that saying is, "Ask 10 beekeepers and get 12 "correct" answers". There is a dozen ways to do anything in beekeeping.
No ID you are completely wrong, there are 13ways, not 12. Did I make your and M Bush point??
Ask a mathematician the answer to 2+2. They will say 4. Ask a real estate appraiser. What do you want it to be?
Social media has a term called ?Trending? . Yes that can bring about myopathy and echo chambers but it can supply you with a navigational-enough road map to get close enough to find a Mall or landmark or even answers to hive problems.
My brother and I discussed intelligent design and evolution and agree the answers may live somewhere in the middle.
I tend to read my board members advice and stir in a google search or 2 and then top with a YouTube video. And then totally demolish natural comb and ask- Why me Lord?
Intelligent design, created evolution. I don?t understand why folks see one or the other.
There are folks who believe the honey bee evolved to what it is today. I ask evolved from what, there is not other creature on this planet that makes honey or wax. With evolution there has to be a starting point, there is no starting point for the honeybee,,, totally unique, created it was.
This topic may likely develop as Bush stated.
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 11, 2019, 09:31:56 PM
... there is not other creature on this planet that makes honey or wax.
There are however different species of honeybee, and there are also native bees that make honey and wax.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aussiebee.com.au/australian-stingless-bees.html&ved=2ahUKEwjgmaHa58nhAhUaVH0KHYVeBmMQFjAbegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0p-z7fOQ_Jt5aiujK9pcqD
;)
Is there a center, though, to the spread of opinions on a subject? In any (beekeeping) situation, there are myriad paths forward, at least half of which will work, but is there a subset of those paths that are "tried and true" or "well-trodden" or "outcome predictable"?
I guess I wonder is there a set of "best practices", or is that just authoritarianism?
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 11, 2019, 09:31:56 PM
Intelligent design, created evolution. I don?t understand why folks see one or the other.
There are folks who believe the honey bee evolved to what it is today. I ask evolved from what, there is not other creature on this planet that makes honey or wax. With evolution there has to be a starting point, there is no starting point for the honeybee,,, totally unique, created it was.
This topic may likely develop as Bush stated.
In The Hive and The Honey Bee, Langstroth repeatedly says that the honey bee was put on earth by god for man and he sites all of the things that bees do for man that no other animal provides.
I think he is right.
Jim Altmiller
I long for a ?like? button - good call sawdust
Quote from: saltybluegrass on April 12, 2019, 11:54:23 AM
I long for a ?like? button - good call sawdust
I second that entire statement. I think a lack of a like button is this forum?s only major shortcoming.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 12, 2019, 07:32:43 AM
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 11, 2019, 09:31:56 PM
Intelligent design, created evolution. I don?t understand why folks see one or the other.
There are folks who believe the honey bee evolved to what it is today. I ask evolved from what, there is not other creature on this planet that makes honey or wax. With evolution there has to be a starting point, there is no starting point for the honeybee,,, totally unique, created it was.
This topic may likely develop as Bush stated.
In The Hive and The Honey Bee, Langstroth repeatedly says that the honey bee was put on earth by god for man and he sites all of the things that bees do for man that no other animal provides.
I think he is right.
Jim Altmiller
SawDust, Jim, as usual,,,,,, AGREED, well stated, my Man.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 12, 2019, 07:32:43 AM
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 11, 2019, 09:31:56 PM
This topic may likely develop as Bush stated.
In The Hive and The Honey Bee, Langstroth repeatedly says that the honey bee was put on earth
by god for man and he sites all of the things that bees do for man that no other animal provides.
I think he is right.
Jim Altmiller
Well Well, *that* grand declaration cuts a whole group of b'keeps out of the
loop - the Agnostics???
Langstroth had many a theorism bent to his particular circumstance - those
of a beekeeper do note - and proven biased(askew) in Time, particularly by
those reverting back to the log in the longhive config.
Yet Michael (often) uses quotes from the ancients in parachuting into a topic.
Quotes minus the caveat these blokes were beekeepers just as is any other
student of Apis/Tetragonula husbandry. Entamology in profession not then
established as quantifiable specific science until well past their day.
There is no defence for the meme put as topic here, for as Van notes such just
fosters more of the same. What is relative is to recognise such utterences in
excuse for what they are - "I don't know really but this is what I do and it works
for me". The crux being that without being able to be repeated ad nausem as a
workable solution it is simply the case that 12 of the 13 respondants are either FOS
or not at all disposed to considering any efficiency factor for the bees.
As in any scientific exploration of organisms it is Scale (used) in reaching outcomes
that determines a safe conclusion. So it is where the largest block proves the
consistency of outcome across that number you will find answers.
Yet both across social media and in backyard apiarys across the Planet you will find
people who have bees bashing a square peg into that round hole, and calling it good.
Compliments.
Bill
--
(edit) schpelin of "specific".
Touchpads are not perfection, expect random errors.
/lulz/
Eltalia,
What exactly are you trying to say?
I really do not know.
Jim Altmiller
yes. circumstances, environment play the crucial role for bee-keeping. what works in one climate won`t in another, or might make no sense, be useless.
e.g. in my beginning I read "put the super on when cherry blooms". I did. nothing happened. lots of empty space on the hive. well - the guy wrote about the valley-climates, not the mountain-climate...
e.g. just last year: ANY beekeeper in southern Germany will tell you this. and even people that have kept bees for generations wrote in the beekeepers paper: in a pine flow, bees will reduce broodnest to next to nothing. whereas in a cement-honey flow, they breed like in spring.
well: my appr. 50 hives went practically out of brood during cement-honey. I was really concerned. I could do nothing (well I did, but was hopeless). then cement-honey-flow stopped and pine-honey flow started.
all of a sudden the brood-nests looked like in spring.
now what, what happened.
first of all, I decided, there are a lot o fthings in beekeeping being told that won`t hold up to reality. even if told for a hundred years.
now, was pine-honey better than cement-honey, was it a matter of the flow?
my conclusion at the moment is: during cement-honey-flow (which usually it the time for pine-honey flow more or less) there was a dearth of pollen (local thing about the black-forest). pine-flow was late last year and it is a time when lots of pollen was to be had again.
so it wasn`t - to my eyes - not a matter of the flow really, but to the circumstances. there might not be pollen-dearth in summer always, but there prob. was one last year, it was hot and dry.
on the other hand, there are certain things about beekeeping that are the same everywhere. like bees usually having six legs, one queen per hive mostly asf.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 12, 2019, 10:42:56 PM
Eltalia,
What exactly are you trying to say?
I really do not know.
Jim Altmiller
Merely fullfilling Michael's prophecy Jim - and doing so from an Agnostic perspective, a
position of review Langstroth would have is isolated in not pandering to reinforcing a
message (of) some superior being has installed difference.
Michael's presumptions setout the framework for doubt in the analysis of behavourial
outcomes, a method of fostering perpetuity in leaning on built reputation for guidance
- none of it at all divine intervention.
Feel free to remove the message - bees won't care.
Cheers...
Bill
Sorry, Bill, but in my opinion, an agnostic's view is right up there with a liar's integrity. Two steps less than nothing.
TO EACH HIS OWN
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 12, 2019, 07:32:43 AM
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 11, 2019, 09:31:56 PM
Intelligent design, created evolution. I don?t understand why folks see one or the other.
There are folks who believe the honey bee evolved to what it is today. I ask evolved from what, there is not other creature on this planet that makes honey or wax. With evolution there has to be a starting point, there is no starting point for the honeybee,,, totally unique, created it was.
This topic may likely develop as Bush stated.
In The Hive and The Honey Bee, Langstroth repeatedly says that the honey bee was put on earth by god for man and he sites all of the things that bees do for man that no other animal provides.
I think he is right.
Jim Altmiller
I would have believed this even if Langston had not said it, in fact I already believed it before I knew Langston said it. I only just now came to know that Langston had in fact stated this. Every person of faith in The Holy Bible knows that God promised Isreal to be a land of milk and Honey.
Numbers 13:27
And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.
Bill,
Thanks for the explanation.
As to, ?Feel free to remove the message - bees won't care.?
Why would I? We share our thoughts and ideas here. If that is what you really think, then say it.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 12, 2019, 07:32:43 AM
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 11, 2019, 09:31:56 PM
This topic may likely develop as Bush stated.
In The Hive and The Honey Bee, Langstroth repeatedly says that the honey bee was put on earth
by god for man and he sites all of the things that bees do for man that no other animal provides.
I think he is right.
Jim Altmiller
Well Well, *that* grand declaration cuts a whole group of b'keeps out of the loop - the Agnostics??
Jim didn't cause harm to anyone by quoting Langston. Nor do I believe that was his intent. Yet, it "seems" Bill took offense by it. Why would this offend you Bill?
Quote from: Michael Bush on April 11, 2019, 02:24:46 PM
Most things seem to work in a flow. Most things seem to fail in a dearth.
I am not a long-time beekeeper, but this seems to right to be.
In investing, there is a saying that "A rising tide lifts all boats." Another is "Everyone is brilliant in a bull market." And yet another is "It is when the tide goes out that you see who has been swimming naked."
Greg
😁
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 13, 2019, 08:03:26 AM
Bill,
Thanks for the explanation.
As to, ?Feel free to remove the message - bees won't care.?
Why would I? We share our thoughts and ideas here. If that is what you really think, then say it.
Jim Altmiller
So does that mean you understand it now :shocked: :wink:
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 13, 2019, 08:03:26 AM
We share our thoughts and ideas here. If that is what you really think, then say it.
And get bible bashed by the purple circle? No thanks. I'd rather talk about bees on a bee forum even if it is with someone whose post I have to read 5 times before I get it.
Just my contrary opinion....
Quote from: Skeggley on April 13, 2019, 07:02:11 PM
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 13, 2019, 08:03:26 AM
We share our thoughts and ideas here. If that is what you really think, then say it.
And get bible bashed by the purple circle? No thanks. I'd rather talk about bees on a bee forum even if it is with someone whose post I have to read 5 times before I get it.
Just my contrary opinion....
Ben,
Are your ears burning? :cheesy:
Quote from: Skeggley on April 13, 2019, 07:02:11 PM
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 13, 2019, 08:03:26 AM
We share our thoughts and ideas here. If that is what you really think, then say it.
And get bible bashed by the purple circle? No thanks. I'd rather talk about bees on a bee forum even if it is with someone whose post I have to read 5 times before I get it.
Just my contrary opinion....
Langston was a well known beekeeper. Well respected I would suppose in the beekeepers world? So is Michale Bush. I don?t know much about Langston. I can?t speak for van or Jim but I don?t think they meant any harm to anyone of non faith, or what they said was harmful, hurtful, disrespectful, nor intended to start an uproar, for their innocent comments quoting or concerning Langston about bees or his belief in God. As a person of faith myself, I agree with all four .
If we are only allowed to talk about bees and bees alone, that would eliminate a lot of comments here? I realize that the coffee house is the place for discussion of other subjects but I really don?t believe that Van and Jims comments were intended to upset or ruffle feathers. But since it apparently did. Other comments were made in response. And other comments to that. So here we are. Do we have enough respect for one another to drop it or does it go to the coffee house? No harm meant to any party involved in the conversation from me or my part and I hope all here can say honestly say the same.
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 13, 2019, 08:03:26 AM
Bill,
Thanks for the explanation.
No worries Jim, happy to oblige like. ;-))
Quote
As to, ?Feel free to remove the message - bees won't care.?
Why would I? We share our thoughts and ideas here. If that is what you really think, then say it.
Jim Altmiller
Now that there is true inclusion and very refreshing to read.
Mind you... as I 'talk' to b'keeps from all over the Planet that
landscape demands any form structure is sensitive to differing
audiences so as to not abuse the privilage. Reactions do not
faze me, at all, for as Michael has tried to install one has to
expect the contrary.
Cheers...
Bill
M. Bush: Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping, the odds are both sides are wrong.
This does not appear correct to me: ANY ISSUE and BOTH SIDES WRONG. I hear frequently beeks that possess differing opinions in which both are correct as applied to their specific parameters. Location, Apiary size, specific environment, hive configuration, hive size, hobbyist vrs commerical, treat vrs no treat etc. can afford a specific learning trait that may or may not be interpreted the same by two individuals. On this site, I have witnessed mature conclusions OK WE AGREE TO DISAGREE. That is it, friendly, mature, professional solution. This example focus on your word ANY yet contrary to your statement.
I have an efriend in Canada that has experience negative results from Cordovan queens whereas I have had positive experiences. In this example climate is a major factor as well as hobbyist, me, and commercial, my efriend. My efriend and I are not both WRONG, to the contrary, we are both correct.
The statement appears bias against beekeepers as if we argue ANY opposing topic and concludes beeks are WRONG with words like: WHENEVER, ANY, WRONG.
The beeks on this forum are a good bunch of folks. I have many favorites that I look for their responses. I don?t have a twitter account, nor FaceBook or any public account with the exception of BeeMaster. There are some impressive folks here with opposing views that each is correct with respect to their specifics named above: hive size, environment......
So I don?t agree with your sentence above so let us agree to disagree.
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 14, 2019, 09:05:29 PM
M. Bush: Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping, the odds are both sides are wrong.
This does not appear correct to me: ANY ISSUE and BOTH SIDES WRONG. I hear frequently beeks that possess differing opinions in which both are correct as applied to their specific parameters. Location, Apiary size, specific environment, hive configuration, hive size, hobbyist vrs commerical, treat vrs no treat etc. can afford a specific learning trait that may or may not be interpreted the same by two individuals. On this site, I have witnessed mature conclusions OK WE AGREE TO DISAGREE. That is it, friendly, mature, professional solution. This example focus on your word ANY yet contrary to your statement.
I have an efriend in Canada that has experience negative results from Cordovan queens whereas I have had positive experiences. In this example climate is a major factor as well as hobbyist, me, and commercial, my efriend. My efriend and I are not both WRONG, to the contrary, we are both correct.
The statement appears bias against beekeepers as if we argue ANY opposing topic and concludes beeks are WRONG with words like: WHENEVER, ANY, WRONG.
The beeks on this forum are a good bunch of folks. I have many favorites that I look for their responses. I don?t have a twitter account, nor FaceBook or any public account with the exception of BeeMaster. There are some impressive folks here with opposing views that each is correct with respect to their specifics named above: hive size, environment......
So I don?t agree with your sentence above so let us agree to disagree.
Immediately after that sentence he wrote the following, a follow up sentence if you will. "Especially if both are telling you there is no other way that works except theirs and they are doing opposite things." Mr Bushs' article seemed pretty accurate to me when looking into the whole of it. I am thinking he is trying to help a new, or even an old school beekeeper, all beekeepers, to think for themselves. Consider the information given, what is the basis of the information provided by the presenter, from whom the information is presented, the location of the presenter, and the circumstances of the situation of the beekeeper in which the information is presented from? A very well thought out article in my opinion.
Phillip
PS Mr Van, I'm not trying to be (contrary), as in contrary opinions, thus the title of this thread. :grin:
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on April 14, 2019, 11:51:58 PM
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 14, 2019, 09:05:29 PM
M. Bush: Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping, the odds are both sides are wrong.
This does not appear correct to me: ANY ISSUE and BOTH SIDES WRONG.
Quote
Immediately after that sentence he wrote the following, a follow up sentence if you will.
Michael wrote in part;
"Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping, the odds are both sides are wrong.
Especially if both are telling you there is no other way that works except theirs and they are doing opposite
things. And especially if the beekeeping world is very divided on the issue. "
Not even when you consider the whole of the statement in full context (as above) does the message
change Ben - a grandiose message designed to confuse those who do not know and not so subtley
introduce a vehicle for contradiction, or if you like... polarise some tribal urge.
Another olde adage amongst b'keeps of note in longevity is "you have to know first to know", Ben.
For myself only I am well tooled up to recognise the message in the post, a message I disagree with
as I have seen these efforts in forums before today, posts made to discredit information given freely
for which the (opposite) promotor has no answer for in logical disection.
Another method is "Please provide translation for your post" - many variations on that one, some
not so mature nor polite.
Michael is well known for his dogma style posting, usually with a text wall of quotes from olde Masters
- that or oversimplified single line responses.
Fine where such helps or is completely relevant.
Do note Michael's reluctance to build on the post, or clarify the intent for folks such as yourself...
... leaving you to flounder on your own suppostion(s).
I have witnessed many a sole left so stranded above the low water mark, believe.
Bringing us (royal) back to bees I will point to the consequences of "both sides are wrong" - I have
many but a very recent outcome as anecdotal evidence of actual financial loss, death of a queen
and a degree of unecessary pain experienced by the new to beekeeping enthusiast is the real life
actuality of fostering doubt amongst those who do not know when instructed by those who do know
yet are contradicted with "that advice does not apply here"... and frankly, contradiction from the
keyboard of a total waste of space who's only claim to credibilty is a fluffy website.
I'd write the story up if it made a difference, yet lesson learnt it is enough for myself to know I know.
Cheers.
Bill
Any statement is going to be correct under certain circumstances, and wrong under others. That's why reply #1 was stated. If it works for one person today, it is correct. If it doesn't work for another tomorrow, it is wrong.
With bees, the only "TRUE" statement is, "They will do different next time?.
>"Everyone is brilliant in a bull market."
Les Crowder said his teacher said "A flow makes us all better beekeepers."
>This does not appear correct to me: ANY ISSUE and BOTH SIDES WRONG.
I was making the point of issues where both sides think the other way cannot work. In that they are obviously wrong or half the beekeepers would have to be hallucinating.
@ eltilia
Mr. Bill,
I know, that you are a well seasoned, lifetime beekeeper. There is no doubt in my mind that what you have learned, not only by studying, and researching , but what you have learned by first hand knowledge, and experience through your many years of beekeeping, a knowledge that has been built upon year after year, a knowledge that has been proven through the test of time. When you share that knowledge, you have full confidence in what you are saying, and full confidence, said knowledge is correct. Other wise, I am confident you would not pass it on. I am sure that the same can be said by others here as yourself.
The things that I said in my post number 27, I believe to be accurate. Not just from the one paragraph that you quoted or the line that Van quoted, or even the line that I quoted, I took the whole of Mr. Bush?s first post, each paragraph in whole, put together to arrive to the conclusion of the big picture of his post, as I attempted to communicate in my post twenty-seven after getting the full picture of his intentioned digestion.
Let me give you an example. The honey pump, Mr. Claude, is another well seasoned beekeeper, (and I hope He will not be offended by my using his name and example), whom I have the upmost respect for his knowledge, teaching, and advise. I am thinking he told me he comes from a 7th generation beekeeping family. This mans family also runs thousands of hives, producing many many gallons of honey and many thousands of pounds of wax each year. A man in his family and position had better KNOW what he is talking about or his family?s livelihood can be at risk! This is something that I am sure that you fully understand yourself. Who better to receive advise from than Mr Claude? Or some other expert as yourself? Even so, in his graciousness Mr Claude gave advise to a keeper here in the Southern United States. Iddee reminded Mr Claude the southern beekeeper was in small hive beetle territory. So wrong advise was given even though advise given by Mr Claude was right in his own circumstances. For his own area. Does my respect for Mr Claude dwindle? I dare say not one bit! I still have full confidence in his knowledge and teaching! 💯 percent.
We, especially less seasoned beekeepers, as myself, can and do learn much from you seasoned beekeepers, you are our (professors), so to speak, and we are your students.!Even still we must and should also think for ourselves when receiving advise for very reason of the above stated examples and my post number 27. This does not only pertain to beekeeping, but life in general. Wouldn?t you agree? Just because someone tells us something, even from childhood, doesn?t mean we should swallow it hook line and sinker. Same with faith. Just because I am a person of faith, you shouldn?t believe it just because Phillip said so, but because perhaps if you was interested enough, you would research it for yourself by The Word. I can?t convince you or anyone else to have faith or believe. The Word says faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by The Word.
Kind Regards,
Phillip
Quote"It is when the tide goes out that you see who has been swimming naked."
Gees that is funny. If I were swimming with someone naked, I know it before the tide goes out.
@Ben Framed:
Ben, the OP is not at all about Life so broadening the discussion is not helpfull.
The statement is on beekeeping issues - I quote again;
"Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping,
the odds are both sides are wrong"
Now, using that statement - as declared - *and* now seeing clearly we are AC-DC
on the issue *and* we are both beekeepers does this statement not then say
literally the odds are we are both wrong?
Cheers...
Bill
M. Bush: Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping, the odds are both sides are wrong.
Mr. Ben. The above is the introductary sentence. To me, not correct,, , condescending to beeks on this forum. So I address, as did Mr. Bush address and clarified his meaning.
Quote from: eltalia on April 15, 2019, 10:07:20 AM
@Ben Framed:
Ben, the OP is not at all about Life so broadening the discussion is not helpfull.
The statement is on beekeeping issues - I quote again;
"Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping,
the odds are both sides are wrong"
Now, using that statement - as declared - *and* now seeing clearly we are AC-DC
on the issue *and* we are both beekeepers does this statement not then say
literally the odds are we are both wrong?
Cheers...
Bill
Yes if we pick out the one sentence as the whole jest of what he is trying to get across in his article, he would indeed be wrong. Is is easy to pick out certain things said by someone, not considering the whole jest, and change the prospective of the whole picture to lean toward a complete other meaning or meanings. The news media does this very thing all the time. They take a sentence of a person or a comment of a statement or speech, totally disregarding the rest of the speech or statement which fully explains the true intent of what someone was saying or trying to communicate in the first place, the true meaning or intent of the speaker, on that by that one sentence, is lost in the shuffle; commented on, twisted and turned until the meaning as was intended by the speaker, has been lost, and they, the public believe the report of the news instead of the completed statement of the speaker. As i said, I am looking at the whole article before reading a total conclusion of the one controversial sentence taken form it. If that was the only sentence, I would be right there with you and Mr Van completely. Mr Bush explained his intent of this sentence, in his post number 31 just before I posted my last post to you,(32), I trust that he was telling the truth in his explanation, and not lying to us. I have no reason to believe he is not a man of integrity. And I do believe that the point that Mr Bush made and is trying to make is still accurate as I explained in my post number 27. Now I can not speak for Mr Bush. He must do that for himself.
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 15, 2019, 10:21:59 AM
M. Bush: Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping, the odds are both sides are wrong.
Mr. Ben. The above is the introductary sentence. To me, not correct,, , condescending to beeks on this forum. So I address, as did Mr. Bush address and clarified his meaning.
Thanks Mr Van. You posted as I was writing my last post. :wink:
Quote from: Ben Framed on April 15, 2019, 10:44:54 AM
Quote from: eltalia on April 15, 2019, 10:07:20 AM
@Ben Framed:
Ben, the OP is not at all about Life so broadening the discussion is not helpfull.
The statement is on beekeeping issues - I quote again;
"Whenever you see contrary opinions about any issue in beekeeping,
the odds are both sides are wrong"
Now, using that statement - as declared - *and* now seeing clearly we are AC-DC
on the issue *and* we are both beekeepers does this statement not then say
literally the odds are we are both wrong?
Cheers...
Bill
Yes if we pick out the one sentence as the whole jest of what he is trying to get across in his article, he would indeed be wrong. Is is easy to pick out certain things said by someone, not considering the whole jest, and change the prospective of the whole picture to lean toward a complete other meaning or meanings. The news media does this very thing all the time. They take a sentence of a person or a comment of a statement or speech, totally disregarding the rest of the speech or statement which fully explains the true intent of what someone was saying or trying to communicate in the first place, the true meaning or intent of the speaker, on that by that one sentence, is lost in the shuffle; commented on, twisted and turned until the meaning as was intended by the speaker, has been lost, and they, the public believe the report of the news instead of the completed statement of the speaker. As i said, I am looking at the whole article before reading a total conclusion of the one controversial sentence taken form it. If that was the only sentence, I would be right there with you and Mr Van completely. Mr Bush explained his intent of this sentence, in his post number 31 just before I posted my last post to you,(32), I trust that he was telling the truth in his explanation, and not lying to us. I have no reason to believe he is not a man of integrity. And I do believe that the point that Mr Bush made and is trying to make is still accurate as I explained in my post number 27. Now I can not speak for Mr Bush. He must do that for himself.
Let me add Mr Bill, at least that seems to be the way the news operates here in America, I hope your news in Australia is more dependable. :wink:
Phillip
Hi Folks,
My best takeaway from this thread was the term CEMENT HONEY.
I had not heard the term before. I googled it. I,ve experienced it. I'll remember it! CEMENT HONEY. Thanks again, BFB.
But YIKES! Who else,... what other newbees will study this thread to arrive at a conclusion or read it for entertaining, useful information. Maybe philosophers, malcontents and lonely people.
One does not have to believe in God to benefit from God's work. (zing)
Gotta laugh, folks. Gotta laugh. Oh! "The Purple Circle". I liked that too. LOL
Sal
Thank you Mr. Ben for you critique. Your time is appreciated.
Blessings
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 15, 2019, 12:19:55 PM
Thank you Mr. Ben for you critique. Your time is appreciated.
Blessings
I say the same to you also Mr Van, as well as Mr Bill and Mr Bush. At least if we do not all agree on everything, we can at least talk civilly to one another until we find a subject which we can agree upon.
Phillip
"But YIKES! Who else,... what other newbees will study this thread to arrive at a
conclusion or read it for entertaining, useful information. Maybe philosophers,
malcontents and lonely people."
I'll stand a logical correction Salvo however the topic was never posted for new players
seeking info on beekeeping, regardless of the structured message.
A new critic - to BMA - may however own a differing view.
Buuut back to bees in saying I took "cement-honey"(sic) as being a predictive text
typo, so your post is most helpfull now in bringing us (royal) to an instance of
differing perspectives of a honey phenomenon in my asking which is correct for the
origins of the term, plant or insect?
I trust the answer proves contrary.
For Australia we have "jellybush honey", back in the day a true curse as frames blew
out where it was missed on decapping. Knowing b'keeps avoided those areas of
forage like the plague. Today our Kiwi cousins are making a bundle off the back of
Manuka honey, the same stuff but marketed quite smartly.
So as well as familiarity of extraction difficulty there is also the claimed medicinal
benefits shared by JBH and CH. Thing is where does CH originate from...?... as in
looking I have found contrary descriptions of source.
Near as I can tell, for the Northern Hemisphere one group argues it is plant based
"forest honey" whereas another perspective claims CH is insect p00 gathered by
Apis honeybees. The one thing agreed on is that like JBH the product is difficult
to get into a bottle.
Help!
Cheers...
Bill
--
https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_the_commercial_source_of_the_sugar_melezitose
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=yOXLhu8iKE0C&pg=PT39&lpg=PT39&dq=%22cement+honey%22&source=bl&ots=DHuZc8LrML&sig=ACfU3U27JrJBwgic2WqeUBkL2wuh6qtQ8A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiymL7-wNLhAhUTT30KHeZ8DrQQ6AEIHTAI#v=onepage&q=%22cement%20honey%22&f=false
https://www.airborne.co.nz/hnydew.shtml
https://www.activejellybush.com/
[attachment=0][/attachment]
"Yes if we pick out the one sentence as the whole jest of what he is trying to get across in his
article, he would indeed be wrong."
We have done context previously Ben - see post#29.
So it stands you are saying on the basis of that context Michael is wrong - which
is the point I am making.
Now we (us) agree it then follows we (royal) have a situation where Michael - in
saying two beekeepers at odds on the same issue are wrong - now owns the
problem where two beekeepers agree his statement is wrong.
I'd offer Michael would toss such conclusion to the curb, no?
Cheers...
Bill
Quote from: eltalia on April 15, 2019, 06:10:46 PM
"Yes if we pick out the one sentence as the whole jest of what he is trying to get across in his
article, he would indeed be wrong."
We have done context previously Ben - see post#29.
So it stands you are saying on the basis of that context Michael is wrong - which
is the point I am making.
Now we (us) agree it then follows we (royal) have a situation where Michael - in
saying two beekeepers at odds on the same issue are wrong - now owns the
problem where two beekeepers agree his statement is wrong.
I'd offer Michael would toss such conclusion to the curb, no?
Cheers...
Bill
Haa haa.. I think I made myself clear, and I know that you understood my meaning and explanation; clearly and completely; weather you will ever admit it or not. Which I really doubt that you will? I can only smile, as I reflect on some of the conversations that you and I have had in the past, as well as the one that we are having even now.. I thank you for that smile. Who knows, maybe I have made you smile also. Have a great day there in the land down under Mr Bill.
Cheers back to you!
Sincerely,
Phillip
@Ben Framed
All good, and well informed on this side of the Equator, Ben.
Cheers...
Bill
Quote from: eltalia on April 15, 2019, 07:05:31 PM
@Ben Framed
All good, and well informed on this side of the Equator, Ben.
Cheers...
Bill
Same here Mr Bill on this side. 👍🏻
Phillip
Bill, you are a well informed individual; manukau honey. I had no idea the honey was also callled cement honey and produced in your part of the world. Ever taste the expensive high grade manukau? Run, my man, run as it taste like honey mixed with chloroseptic. Definitely phenols present with a pungent smell as mentholated honey. Smell like medicine so it must be good for you, right. So, up the price to $40 bucks [US]an ounce, give the honey a weird name with an awful taste and folks will beat a path to your door.
What the heck is turanose????? Why of course,,,, an isomer of sucrose,,,, again, with a confusing name like that and made by insects one can conclude it must be good for a fella. Well as a fact, folks are paying and buying by the ounce for the cement honey. Black market is all over this honey, so it is graded with seal of authentic as counterfeits or dilutions are more common than the real deal.
If you can persuade your bees to collect nectar and pollen from the manukau trees or your down under bush, the bankers will bow down to you. But seriously just mix up some farm fresh honey with menthol and taste the same to me.
Now the idea: mix cement honey with Royal Jelly and you has a new skin cosmetic. Very believable as the phenols in manukau would tingle the skin so you could actually fell the effect of this new skin cream I just invented with a price $60 per gram. Seriously, it would sell.
Manukau does have real medicinal properties, all satires aside.
Cheers Bill!!!
Yeup Van JBH is "an accquired taste"... one we will not accquire I'd wager.
Not honey focused when we were operating there are too many bad memories
of the stuff to cause more than a smile when sighting a hopefull with a table
loaded with the stuff at a farmer's market.
How times change, eh. ;-))
/waves/
Bill
BenFramed: Let me give you an example. The honey pump, Mr. Claude, is another well seasoned beekeeper, (and I hope He will not be offended by my using his name and example), whom I have the upmost respect for his knowledge, teaching, and advise. I am thinking he told me he comes from a 7th generation beekeeping family. This mans family also runs thousands of hives, producing many many gallons of honey and many thousands of pounds of wax each year. A man in his family and position had better KNOW what he is talking about or his family?s livelihood can be at risk!
The Honey Pump is a true Blessings to this forum. The man, HP as most call the fella, has explained the commercial side of beekeeping. I have read HP posts in which some are very detailed, lengthy yet HP took the time. I have ask some very difficult questions and HP provided probable answers in short easily understandable format. HP has a very good understanding of how honey bees react to a given set of circumstances enabling HP to cut through confusing situations then listing most likely reasons with cures to the situation. Yes, Mr. Ben, Beemaster is fortunate to have The Honey Pump with his wealth of knowledge surely obtained only by years hands on and tips from Masters, maybe his own folks. I certainly have benefited from and appreciate The Honey Pump. Er uh one smart Homeboy as they say in the country.
Blessings
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 16, 2019, 07:45:48 PM
BenFramed: Let me give you an example. The honey pump, Mr. Claude, is another well seasoned beekeeper, (and I hope He will not be offended by my using his name and example), whom I have the upmost respect for his knowledge, teaching, and advise. I am thinking he told me he comes from a 7th generation beekeeping family. This mans family also runs thousands of hives, producing many many gallons of honey and many thousands of pounds of wax each year. A man in his family and position had better KNOW what he is talking about or his family?s livelihood can be at risk!
The Honey Pump is a true Blessings to this forum. The man, HP as most call the fella, has explained the commercial side of beekeeping. I have read HP posts in which some are very detailed, lengthy yet HP took the time. I have ask some very difficult questions and HP provided probable answers in short easily understandable format. HP has a very good understanding of how honey bees react to a given set of circumstances enabling HP to cut through confusing situations then listing most likely reasons with cures to the situation. Yes, Mr. Ben, Beemaster is fortunate to have The Honey Pump with his wealth of knowledge surely obtained only by years hands on and tips from Masters, maybe his own folks. I certainly have benefited from and appreciate The Honey Pump. Er uh one smart Homeboy as they say in the country.
Blessings
I could not agree any more or know what I could say that would describe my appreciation of Mr Claude any better that you have just done. I am always eager to read his (replies, reports, and articles).
Mr Van, we have several here that I am happy to admire as bee (professors). I have learned much from many here. I could start naming names but if I do, I am bound to miss someone. However, I am most happy to mention one by name, who most recently I have come to admire and respect even though he and I have bumped heads in the past. Most likely my fault. As we come from two totally different parts of the world and cultures. Well versed in his Vocabulary a man that also knows bees and has full confidence in what he says, and that is Mr Bill. Hats off to each of you! Hats 🎩 off not only to these two but every beemaster member who has ever responded either directly or indirectly to any of my post or comments, including you also Mr Van. I say thank you and God Bless you, each and everyone. I am very happy to be here and a part of this Forum.
Sincerely,
Phillip Hall ''Ben Framed''