Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

Can I add a cutout at a neighbors property to the hive I have trying to make queen cells? It?s low in population and activity .
What?s the sequence?
I?m going to cut out comb, rubber band to frames and leave the nuc box for 3-7 days -
Then what?
(This May lead to M. Bush?s thread on many answers )

First question is why is the hive low on population?  Address that first. 
Is it loaded with mites? Is there a brood disease?  Is the queen failing?
Once you know what the cause of the problem is, then yes boosting from another hive works great.  But if there is an underlying problem that you do not know or address, then the boost bees and brood are doomed to the same fate.

Getting queens cells is easy.  Stick open brood and eggs into a box full of bees with no queen.  Wait 10 days.  Go get the cells.

HP, yes, glad you corrected, I was a little confused there until you adjusted.

Question:  I have seen hives, not many, that will not create queen cells after repeated presentation of frames with eggs, 24 hr larva, and also seen hives with a failing queen that make no attempt to supersede?  I don?t know why or what I am doing wrong???  I realize bees don?t always follow the book, but ask for your, beeks,  input?

Per Pooh Bear:  you never can tell with bees

Cases where they will not draw cells may be such things as:  - the bees are too old and not capable of quality RJ, need young nurse bees for to draw cells well.  - some old bees may be already turning laying worker, they think they are queenrite.  - larvae in comb given are too old.   - overpowering queen/brood pheromone coming from somewhere. 

Other ideas?

That is a good reply HP.  Thanks for your time.

What does Per Pooh Bear mean and who is it directed to?

Christopher Robin, Pooh Bear and honey maybe ?

I just worry that slow hive from a cutout may have lost a q. Then 2 weeks ago I saw Qcells and this Sunday there was still a capped Q cell- there?s plenty of work/ nectar / pollen - I didn?t see eggs since I dropped some comb and panicked to not keep disrupting the hive, I closed it up.
Was just wondering when I go cutout this hive tomorrow if I can add it to her?

If you combine I would put a screened bottom board between them with its own entrance. Inspect in a week to see if there is a queen in both boxes. If not remove screen bottom board separating them.

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 12, 2019, 08:50:30 PM
That is a good reply HP.  Thanks for your time.

What does Per Pooh Bear mean and who is it directed to?

HP QUOTE: the bees are too old and not capable of quality RJ, need young nurse bees for to draw cells well.  -

Yes, HP, of course, I believe you hit the nail on the head.  I am dealing now with an overwintered hive that was queenless.  I did provide 2 frames of capped brood, one frame of eggs and larva, 8 days ago.   I was expecting a queen cell to be made, but nothing.  I now understand why!!  Ok, after this cold front moves out and warmer weather appears I will add another frame of eggs, larva.

Do you expand wax cells, open wider the top of the cell, with say 24 hr larva to entice a queen cell to be made from?? 

I give a queen less hive 2 tries at making a queen or accepting a donor queen cell. Then I give up and do a combine. To much work for the reward. Takes long enough for hive to make a laying queen. Season is to short to add 20 extra days to the process.

Quote from: ed/La. on April 14, 2019, 11:51:15 PM
I give a queen less hive 2 tries at making a queen or accepting a donor queen cell. Then I give up and do a combine. To much work for the reward. Takes long enough for hive to make a laying queen. Season is to short to add 20 extra days to the process.

Agreed.

Further to this, should there be any interest in my methods upon encountering a queenless hive. Unless I have a mated queens ready in my breast pocket, or backup nucleus colonies humming along, or an option to buy and have another queen in hand within 2 days ... Then any hive found queenless immediately has its resources redistributed and the bees combined with another hive in the bee yard. By necessity, there is no time nor patience for a hive to raise a queen. Without a queen, a hive is nothing more than an expensive/valuable box of bees and frames that has a perishable period of 2 weeks. Use it promptly or lose it and have nothing.

  - Backup queens have to be at the ready or the queenless hive is dismantled.
  - Combine resources and bees, let them work together to fortify a queenrite hive.
  - Raise queens in small nucleus colonies or buy them.
  - When there is a queen in hand and ready, do a hive split.

imho, for consideration, hope that helps, in some way.

I inspected the cutout that I put in a hive 48 hours prior and found 2 New emergency queen cells being started. I want their genetics so I added a super and a double screen on top of another queen right hive that is next to it and put this hive on top. The reason I added a super is we have a light flow on now and will soon be in a very strong flow. I do not want to disturb the top hive fo 30 days. So the deep super should help.
The queen less hive seems to be working hard with no robbing. We will see what happens.
If this hive were out in a location completely by itself, this would not bee necessary. With over 30 hives all around it, and a possible week or 2 of dearth before the main flow, they would not have a chance.
Jim Altmiller

>the bees are too old and not capable of quality RJ

I don't believe this is true.  Any bee can do any job.  It may take more older bees to make the same amount of RJ but the quality of it is the same.

I'm not the only one.

http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Old%20Bees%20Good%20Nurses

"Again some have told me that old bees cannot nurse as their milk glands dry up. I maintain such a statement erroneous....

"Probably in a normal colony the bees do the work best fitted to their age but, as stated, they can do any work required after they are ten days old."--Jay Smith, Better Queens

"...Robinson, Page, Strambi and Strambi (1989) in which they created small colonies consisting of workers all of the same age, and found that regardless of the workers' age, there were always some with low hormone levels (the nurses) and always some with high hormone levels(the foragers). This it is clear that under certain experimental conditions the division of labor within honey bee colonies can be completely unrelated to age." --Tom Seeley, Wisdom of the Hive

"Indeed, it is probably possible for bees of almost any age to perform a particular task if the occasion demands it, as has been recently discussed in detail by Robinson (1992)."--Wisdom of the hive, Tom Seeley (page 31)

The cutout was a failure so I am stuck with this queer hive and nothing to add.
As a newbie, I can?t locate a queen especially with comb falling off frames and I don?t want to over-handle.
I am inspecting this weekend.
I see good activity this week with pollen going in - no dead?s out front and a lot of traffic.
What should this inspection be about? What should I look for and steps to either close this hive or buy a Q-Etc...?
I have 2 other hives - 1 is brood box only.  The 5 frame nuc I received last month and is ready for a super.
The other was a healthy cutout placed in 10-frame brood box last month.  It now has a super with bees partially working the top box from inspection 10 days ago and they are still drinking syrup from top feeder.
I really need work on my Q locating skills. It would help if I had something to color her but I?m not sure I?ll ever find one so I?m not even ready to paint!! 

The way to spot the queen is do not look for the queen.  Look at a mass of bees on the frame and allow your eye to be drawn to the one that is different from the rest.  Pull up a frame and scan the wriggling mass of bees.  Look at the frame and sing the song:

?

 :cheesy:

How reliable is it to say that if there is a lot o pollen going in, they have a queen, and are making brood? No pollen no brood no queen? Maybe not in a dearth?

>How reliable is it to say that if there is a lot o pollen going in, they have a queen, and are making brood?

It is not reliable.  I've seen queenless hives stock away frame after frame of pollen.

So funey honey pump!!
I do take a macro view like you advise btw.
Explain your distribution pattern when combining queenless frames to other hives - positions 1-10. What goes where and why?
Also if you were to have a frame of eggs or capped brood from queenless hive , what position in the new hive do they take ?
By the way I had a dream last night that I was sent back to 9th grade - it seems dropping out as a high school junior , now at 57 , even my dreams are mean to me!!

Quote from: saltybluegrass on April 17, 2019, 11:22:26 PM
The other was a healthy cutout placed in 10-frame brood box last month.  It now has a super with bees partially working the top box from inspection 10 days ago and they are still drinking syrup from top feeder.

So is the theory here to get the frames in the super drawn then stop feeding?

Once you see the brood and larva inspection is over for me. By then you know if brood box is getting honey bound. If it is honey bound move a few frames up and replace with fresh frames. I don't worry about seeing the queen unless I am taking frames to move to another box.

Quote from: Skeggley on April 19, 2019, 09:14:03 PM

Quote from: saltybluegrass on April 17, 2019, 11:22:26 PM
The other was a healthy cutout placed in 10-frame brood box last month.  It now has a super with bees partially working the top box from inspection 10 days ago and they are still drinking syrup from top feeder.

So is the theory here to get the frames in the super drawn then stop feeding?

That?s what I assumed - I don?t know how to stop feeding as in - what to look for to make sure the bees are self supported

Generally feeding bees is only necessary when building supplies in the bb/s. I wouldn't feed with supers on as I don't want tainted honey nor do I have supers on if it isn't honey season.
Dying feed is also a good practice as during a flow the bees will move stores from the bb to the supers to make room for brood.

Ok, so since these are month old cutouts , I will inspect for stores today and adjust accordingly. Thanks

I?ve ordered a screen board to stack this slow hive on top of my other.
My others are very new hives so I don?t want to take frames of brood and eggs from them.
How and when can I tell if this combination is successful?

Is there a queen?  Is it a virgin queen or a laying queen in the weak colony?


Below applies if you have a laying queen in both colonies.

IMHO.  A double screen is not going to do much of anything to improve the population of the weak hive.  It helps with allowing warmth to come up from below. That's it. Other than that, they are still effectively completely on their own.

The pictured configuration works for boosting the nest workforce of a weak colony without taking anything away from the other hive. What it represents is a two queen hive. The youngest nurse bees have no allegiance and will go wherever there is brood that needs them. The weak hive will get a boost of brood workers. The strong hive gets a small boost of old foraging workers from the weak hive. To set it up,

First: 
1) ensure both colonies are healthy and that they will not infect each other.
2) ensure the broodnest in the bottom colony has empty space for their queen to keep busy for next 2 weeks. That means 4 empty frames.  Move out honey/syrup full combs and replace with empty combs. For brood having to come out to make the space, shake the bees off and put the brood in the weak colony's box.
Once space is setup, Light misting of the top bars and bees of the lower colony with sugar syrup (some EO or HBH in the spray if you wish, may be helpful)

Next
Put the paper on.
Fold 2 of the 4 corners of the paper in ever so slightly such that there is a triangle hole size of 1.5 bee only at 2 opposing corners of the box. Make a slit 3" long through both layers of paper. Cut a clean slit with a very sharp knife, not holes, not tears.  Locate the slit centred between the 2nd and 3rd frames in from the outside of the box. Do this on both sides. Result is 2 slits for bees to chew and force themselves through, plus ventilation/beeways in opposing corners.   
Light misting the paper with sugar syrup (some EO or HBH in the spray if you wish)
Put QE on top of the paper.
Put weak colony on top of the QE.
No top entrance. All bees go up/down through both nests to work and to get out. A very small hole, screened, is ok but keep it very small so as to keep both sets of pheromones mixing in the hive without a chimney effect wafting those out.
Leave undisturbed, do not touch anything, for at least 10 days. Then go look for evenly distributed bees and two queens building massive broodnests in each box.
After 2 to 3 weeks, when you are happy with the amount of bees and structure of the nest in the top box, take it off and place it on its own bottom board to become its own hive.

If there is a heavy flow on with much coming in; use a second excluder, placing super(s) between the two colony nests.

The alternative is to move a frame of capped brood and attached youngest nurse bees over into the weak colony.  The traditional brood boost.

An option, for your consideration.
Hope that helps!

That?s an awesome well written instruction.
The weak hive are comprised of rubberbanded comb. I?m a new beek and don?t have access to the comb that replaces the brood frame I take from good hive. I?ve got frames w and w/o foundation and some piece mail comb I could puzzle together but it would be a pain. What?s the best choice ?

Quote from: saltybluegrass on May 01, 2019, 11:33:07 PM
That?s an awesome well written instruction.
The weak hive are comprised of rubberbanded comb. I?m a new beek and don?t have access to the comb that replaces the brood frame I take from good hive. I?ve got frames w and w/o foundation and some piece mail comb I could puzzle together but it would be a pain. What?s the best choice ?

Comb is gold. Bees spend a lot of resources and energy to make comb.  Whatever you can do to reduce that effort, most especially in weak colonies, will go a long way to helping them. The comb banded and pieced together does not have to be perfect. The bees will rework the wax into how they want it. You listed additional hives that are doing very well.  There may be some drawn combs in those that could be brought over to help this situation.

If there is a lot of empty space in the hive then foundation frames are recommended to minimize cross combs. If putting in only one or two new frames then foundationless frame set in between existing fully drawn frames can work great.

We could try to help guide you with a frame configuration if you would post the secret code (or pictures) of what you currently have in each box.  See below.  There is no perfect arrangement of the combs. Though there are guidelines. This is a point where beekeepers can differ a lot in how they prefer to setup the boxes. I submit that as long as the guidelines are followed the details do not matter and are not worth arguing over. Simply because the important fact to understand is that regardless best efforts and intent on the part of the beekeeper, the bees are going to completely undo most of it to reorganize the whole box(es) the way THEY want it.

Your objective at the initial setup of a brood nest is to:
- keep brood together so it is warm and easiest for the cluster to care for,
- put empty drawn comb next to brood for queen to keep going uninterrupted,
- put resources (honey/pollen) next to brood and empty comb for the nurse bees,
- put foundation or new bare open frames in between drawn combs so the new frames get built straight. 
After that initial setup, leave the brood nest to the bees to do whatever they want with it.
  F = foundation
  E = empty drawn comb, includes cutout piece meal comb, banded comb
  B = frame with brood on it, includes piece meal comb, banded comb
  H = resource frame of honey, syrup, pollen
  L = open bare frame, foundationless
  S = feeder, syrup frame feeder. If no S use H

For Example: ... assuming 10 frame boxes. What you have and what you could end up with may look something like this.  There are certainly other arrangements/combinations. Depends on what you have for frames and comb to work with.

Top box:
     SEEEBBHFFF
Bottom box:
     HEEEBEHFFF

Quote from a very experienced and very successful beekeeper: 
The bees spend a lot of time and effort undoing whatever the beekeeper did. Every time you lift a lid you are a disruption despite your best intentions. When going into a hive have a very specific purpose and do only what is needed for YOU. Leave the rest to the bees. They do not need you. Remember that.

I wish you all the successes at accomplishing your goals with this weak hive.

Hope that helps!

You?re the best-
Respectfully,
Barefoot

HP, I am impressed with your time, efforts and knowledge devoted or shared to BeeMaster.  You write like an English teacher with the clarity of a technical writer.  Thank you, Sir, you certainly have filled in many blanks for me.
Blessings

Barefoot, Agreed.

Quote from: van from Arkansas on May 02, 2019, 04:09:07 PM
HP, I am impressed with your time, efforts and knowledge devoted or shared to BeeMaster.  You write like an English teacher with the clarity of a technical writer.  Thank you, Sir, you certainly have filled in many blanks for me.
Blessings

Barefoot, Agreed.

Van
There are no words for blessings like we find in people like HP or similar people in our lives.
I want to extend my thanks to all here because I don?t have a mentor but am trying to use this board to make an effective apiary

For BM folks.  Regarding the weak hive boost method presented.  I had to do so just recently, for reasons described in the video.  Knowing the interest here, and especially due to appreciations shown, I took some time to record it to demonstrate the technique.

https://youtu.be/QIhC8v-cSfQ

Enjoy!

I hope that helps.

Had to put on socks and a sweater cap to watch that!!! I used to love the snow. The video was as good as the book! Thanks

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on April 18, 2019, 02:19:20 AM

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song

?

I like this!  :smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sgk-ZYxKxM

Thank you, Sesame Street, for helping me through my whole life.  :)

.

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on April 18, 2019, 02:19:20 AM

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song

?

I learned this song slightly different when I was little. I learned the last two lines as ?Can you guess which one is not like the others?  One of these things is wrong.?  I like this version better. It?s more inclusive. The silver hat isn?t wrong just because it?s not a fireman?s hat.  :cheesy:

Just stumbled on this thread.
I just saw a video from Ian Steppler. He put on newspaper without slits apparently and the bees did not merge cause they didn`t chew it up.
I never use newspaper. I just put the weak colony on the excluder and I never had a problem. Though I have to admit, I only do this rarely, not on a grand scale.

Quote from: The15thMember on May 05, 2019, 01:42:09 AM

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on April 18, 2019, 02:19:20 AM

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song

?

I learned this song slightly different when I was little. I learned the last two lines as ?Can you guess which one is not like the others?  One of these things is wrong.?  I like this version better. It?s more inclusive. The silver hat isn?t wrong just because it?s not a fireman?s hat.  :cheesy:

I bet you are a hoot with Elton John lyrics!! - Speaking from self experience of making my own lines

HP, thanks for the video!!  Question:

Do you experience bees in the stronger lower colony relocating honey from the upper weaker colony?  Sorta like robbing.

Barefoot, Agreed, cold crunchy snow, burr.  I get cold just looking at snow. 

The bees do restructure the resources as the two nests merge.  No, I would not say they rob any box.  It is more a matter of their reorganizing of the contents to most efficiently support the combined brood nest.

The point and the perspective to take is, after a few days the setup is no longer two colonies.  It is one colony, one nest, managed as one, resourced as one. It just so happens to have a queen at each end of it.