I want to be treatment free, but after losing all my hive 2 yrs ago I have a new approach: monitor, and treat as needed, until I find mite resistant genetics that I can propogate.
So ... my daughter and I did inspections today. H1, h3, & H4 are chugging along as usual. This is a story about H5, and H10.
Both H5 & H10 were swarms this yr that my buddy called me to come get. Here's a quick background:
I had high hopes for H5. Large swarm captured 3-23-19, small bees, installed completely foundationless, filled 5 frames by 4-2-19, and 4 8-frame med boxes completely by 5-15-19. I treated them when they arrived, (just in case - since I had them broodless). Testy bees - they sting me when I go by on the tractor. They bump me when i walk by. They've raised havoc in the Apiary, raiding & destroying every Nuc I've tried this season. Every day they hang out in a large cluster on their doorstep. I took 2 more boxes to install on them today. ... I really had hope they'd be the genetics I was looking for.
H10 (4-6-10) was a disappointment from the start. Very gentle, slow growing, barely filled 10 medium frames by 5-15-19. I did not bother to treat them when they showed up - figured it wasn't worth the bother. They are side-by-side with H5. They survived H5's constant onslaught, but no more than that. The entrance to this hive is always so quiet, I often wondered if they were still there ...
Here's the inspection results from today :
H5 - less than 10 frames of bees inside, regardless of the large frontal cluster. Queen is there. Maybe 1.5 frames of brood. Testy as always. 4 mostly empty [of bees] boxes. Alcohol wash mite count: 58 mites - w-w-way too high. After building out 32 frames, this hive is basically dead at this point not even 3 months after capturing them.
H10 - surprised me - 3 5-frame boxes were completely filled out. Brood, Burr comb, and honey tucked everywhere. I gave them more room today and they moved right in. Even more suprising, alcohol wash mite count ... was Zero .... so I swished, shook, and swirled for an addition 60 seconds ... and then 1 lowly mite slowely drifted to the bottom. .... almost, ... but not quite girls ....
I don't know what the future holds for these hives. Maybe I've found what I'm looking for, and maybe I haven't. ... but I did learn this: Never pre-judge a hive from the outside .... thought I'd share that.
Have a great evening - cheers!
There is a lot you can tell from the outside but the inside is what really tells the story.
Mr. Cool, that is an interesting story. Thanks for sharing. I?m sold on H10, the surprise underdog sounds like a keeper for sure and may be the mite resistant hive I would like to have. Good thing you are not next door, I might be slipping into H10 stealing larva to graft queens. Har har har.
The queen in H5 might disappear if she were in my apiary. I deal with defensive bees by requeening, same as most folks. I hope you keep us informed on H10 vrs mean H5.
Van
Thanks Van. :grin: I'm kinda excited too ... but we'll know for sure in a year or 2.
I am thinking of pulling and freezing all brood frames on H5, pinching the queen, and introducing some eggs from H10. ... have to get the mites under control in H5 first.
... and I want to split H10 ... I have to tell myself "patience, me-boy" ...
We shall see ... :grin:
I have some thoughts on this which I hope will be helpful as you consider what to do next.
Wrt entrance activity. Experience says that the quiet hive is usually the best one. Bees that are restless and easily annoyed often are telling you they are not happy for some reason to be determined. A lot of hanging outside can mean acts of excess grooming of uncomfortable bees or that things inside are just not pleasant. A quiet hive in spring and early summer is usually a hive that is happy and busy brooding heavily inside ... or it just swarmed ... or it has collapsed and dead from varroa/nosema missed by the keeper in spring checks ... Like said above, entrance activity is a good indicator. It is when the cover is lifted that the beekeeper knows what is going on inside.
The condition as described really does not sound like H5 to be viable. Consider the effects of the mite condition and the timeline. Given your observations and if the mite load is that high, this is what I would refer to as a -dead bees walking- situation.
- All of the existing brood left (1.5 frames) will be heavily infested and damaged to some degree. A shock treatment of Formic or freezing will cleanse the mite in them. Nothing to loose in doing that.
- The recovery timeline: with that brood dead and damaged the alive bees will have to live through a treatment, then a requeening and then have to hold on for another 3.5 to 4 weeks until there are new bees in the hive. Then another 2 weeks to that new generation of bees hitting the fields to bring fresh resources in. The life of a busy bee is a short one. The life of a sick busy bee is much much shorter. All of those bees you see now will be dead before the hive recovers. It is going to collapse spectacularly, despite your effort to help now. Consider and accept that whatever bees are there now, are dead bees walking.
- I would NOT ever consider giving known sick bees good brood. Sick bees raising brood results in more sick bees. Propagating the viruses and allowing the condition to persist ... or to show up later or elsewhere when one of those bees drifts.
- the colony will likely collapse in midst of your effort. This will leave you feeling you missed step in the process of trying to help them. It will not be anything you did or did not do in the effort. The fact is, they are -dead bees walking- before you even start the try.
- with mite load that high, look at the bees closely. You will see many signs of damage and ailments in the bees. Runts, dwv, cbpv, abpv, cripples. Take a capping fork or tweezers and carefully lift out samples of capped brood. Look in the cells. Pull out a bunch a of emerging bees and observe how many are damaged/injured by the mites on them
My suggestion, what THP would do with this hive5:
Have the compassion to put them out of their misery. It is always best to cull infested/sick stock to maintain biosecurity in your beeyard and your bee neighbourhood. Cut the loss and contain the infestation of Hive 5 by bagging it late at night. Do NOT shake them out! When bagging, a formic shock of the equipment and bees in it with double dose maqs or other such product can help to sterilize the equipment for reused. Close it up air tight and leave it for a week. The critical point is make sure those bees do not go anywhere. If you wish you can also take extra step to freeze the equipment then clean it all out thoroughly. Put the scraps in the trash, do not leave out for your other bees to scavenge from. Finally, restock the cleaned equipment with that split from H10 or as a fresh startup by drawing a mishmash of bees and brood from each of your healthy hives. Give it a queen reared from your choicest genetic line course.
Sad it did not work out. But it was fun trying, right? Also given the temperament, you should also have a bit of a -good riddance- feel to it as you are bagging them. This is not a loss by any measure. The swarm drew out a bunch of frames and filled some boxes for you! Now you can use that drawn equipment to house the bees you really want to have around.
Hope that helps!
TheHoneyPump - I agree with your points. A 58 mite count (out of 300 bees) - is a dead hive walking. Sad.
Thank you for pointing out that a feisty hive - can be a hive with a problem(s). I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense now.
I appreciate your perspective regarding the importance of the overall health of the bee yard - in decision making for H5. It's a very good point.
I'm out of town, but I'll be back tomorrow. I got some decisions to make.
Very good information here Mr Claude. Sorry about your hive Alan. Let us know which route you take and the results afterwards please.
Phillip
Interesting stuff. I?d like to know as well what you do. Good luck
I thought I'd post an update on this topic.
Yesterday I finally had time to do Alcohol Washes on several hives - which included the [previously] Mite Count Zero H10 hive. Here were the results:
H10 - Mite count 21
H2 - (requeened over summer with a daughter of H10 - fed syrup to increase stores Sept & Oct) - Mite count 9
H7 - (a Nuc, 3 boxes high, with a daughter of H10 - fed syrup to increase stores Sept & Oct ) - Mite count 13
Until now, none of these hives have been treated. However, based on these mite counts (and my experiences), none of them will survive next year without treatments.
Some additional notes on these 3 hives:
These mite counts are significantly lower than what I've experienced in my other hives during an equivalent un-treated time period. Especially considering that H10 went thru a Main Flow last year and hasn't been treated. Normally I would expect Mite Counts of 50 or higher in this situation - so that is a positive.
All 3 have solid brood patterns and healthy looking brood nests.
H10 is holding steady with about 10 frames of bees in 2 boxes.
H2 - for whatever reason, has jam-packed 2 boxes to standing room only, when every other hive has been contracting for several months - you'd think there was a flow on. I added another box.
H7 - was weird - 100% of the bees were jammed into the bottom box (5 medium frames), even though there were stores in the upper boxes. In the 4 frames that I inspected, I counted over 20 fully capped QC's! ... and brood in all stages. To my limited experience, it looked like they were getting ready to swarm - not that they have enough bees to to so, and the weather would kill them. Anyways, I reduced them to 2 boxes, and moved 1 brood frame up 1 box. ... we shall see.
So - as much as I was hoping for a hygienic solution from H10, it appears all I really got was an "improvement" in mite counts.
Anyone's thoughts are welcome ...
Mr. Cool, thank you for the update. I am very impressed at your apiary management; you know characteristics of each hive. Keep plugging away at hygenic bees but keep the hives alive. This is what I have to do is treat with OAV. I lost all my no treatment hives, year after year so I threw in the towel and treat, but breed queens from the hives with lowest mite drop. Hoping like you, Cool, to have treatment free bees.
H5 still sounds most impressive to me. Thanks against for the update.
Van
I also, thank you for the update Alan.
Phillip
H2 is robbing. They are robbing honey and mites. Keep an eye on it the mite numbers are going to explode after the first brood cycle.
I think you are just bragging that you are doing mite checks when we are looking for a day to pop the lid, treat with OAD, shim and sugar.
H7: has twenty capped queen cells? In December? I believe you COOL, I don?t know what is going with H7 though. Agreed sounds like swarming.
Cool, could you brief me on your temperatures, high and low?
In Arkansas, we were at 20F this morning which is typical for this time of year. Gonna be months before I can open a hive, like maybe February but for sure in March.
Quote from: van from Arkansas on December 17, 2019, 05:35:57 PM
H7: has twenty capped queen cells? In December? I believe you COOL, I don?t know what is going with H7 though. Agreed sounds like swarming.
Cool, could you brief me on your temperatures, high and low?
In Arkansas, we were at 20F this morning which is typical for this time of year. Gonna be months before I can open a hive, like maybe February but for sure in March.
I believe you also cool as this if falling right in line with my theory that I have been building up to on the last three or four topics that I have started concerning queens and drones. So I am with mr Van, please tell us your highs and lows.
Phillip
Van & Phillip - yesterday was Sunny & 63 deg F when I started inspections. Started later than planned. Had to run to store as I found I was out of alcohol - this cut inspection time short - only got thru 4 of 10 hives - which is ok, because I think I've got a pretty good idea of where the rest are at right now, due to history, weight, previous treatments this yr, and door activity on those hives. ... I have been waiting (somewhat impatiently) to dig into these 3 specific hives, hoping for better results than I got - but, it's a starting point.
The 10-day forecast calls for non-stop heavy overcast, off & on rain/drizzle, highs 56-65 F, lows 40-47 F. Yesterday was my only break to get in and find where things were at - within a schedule that allows treatments to be finished before nectar starts flowing.
Quote from: CoolBees on December 17, 2019, 06:54:31 PM
Van & Phillip - yesterday was Sunny & 63 deg F when I started inspections. Started later than planned. Had to run to store as I found I was out of alcohol - this cut inspection time short - only got thru 4 of 10 hives - which is ok, because I think I've got a pretty good idea of where the rest are at right now, due to history, weight, previous treatments this yr, and door activity on those hives. ... I have been waiting (somewhat impatiently) to dig into these 3 specific hives, hoping for better results than I got - but, it's a starting point.
The 10-day forecast calls for non-stop heavy overcast, off & on rain/drizzle, highs 56-65 F, lows 40-47 F. Yesterday was my only break to get in and find where things were at - within a schedule that allows treatments to be finished before nectar starts flowing.
Thanks Alan, I feel it is safe to say the highs and lows vary from year to year as per you bloom situation variation that you described earlier on another topic. ''early as January 15, or last year it began blooming in the last week of February.'' titled: The Bee's spring. Alan I want to thank you very much for sharing this important information. I am still building on a theory and this was an important factor, please bare with me..
Thanks,
Phillip
... but why all the very large Queen Cells in H7? ... and why did they seemingly abandon the upper 2 boxes? ... this is what I don't get.
The uppermost box (H7) was older, assembled with a different method (than I've been using lately) and thus, was warped top & bottom - which is to say, it allowed a draft to some extent. I expect the bees to close this up, as they usually do. Maybe that had some impact. ... I dunno.
If the weather was better today, I'd go take pictures of the QC's - they were very large, long, and beautifully developed - the kind of QC's I'd love to see in any split - 7 to 8 per frame on both sides ...
If the season was right, the forecast was better, and I wasn't running out of time yesterday - I'd have split some QC's out with resources from H2 and other hives ... I thought about it. But frankly, I don't think it would have worked this time of year - and probably would have caused more harm than good.
Quote from: Ben Framed on December 17, 2019, 07:03:22 PM
... Alan I want to thank you very much for sharing this important information. I am still building on a theory and this was an important factor, please bare with me..
Thanks,
Phillip
No worries Phillip. I try to post when I have something that might be worth sharing. Your all good. :cool:
Quote from: CoolBees on December 17, 2019, 07:08:02 PM
... but why all the very large Queen Cells in H7? ... and why did they seemingly abandon the upper 2 boxes? ... this is what I don't get.
The uppermost box (H7) was older, assembled with a different method (than I've been using lately) and thus, was warped top & bottom - which is to say, it allowed a draft to some extent. I expect the bees to close this up, as they usually do. Maybe that had some impact. ... I dunno.
If the weather was better today, I'd go take pictures of the QC's - they were very large, long, and beautifully developed - the kind of QC's I'd love to see in any split - 7 to 8 per frame on both sides ...
If the season was right, the forecast was better, and I wasn't running out of time yesterday - I'd have split some QC's out with resources from H2 and other hives ... I thought about it. But frankly, I don't think it would have worked this time of year - and probably would have caused more harm than good.
Good questions and information. Alan, have you been seeing alot of drones flying? Did you see many drone cells in the lower box, empty drone cells, capped or at all? upper box same question?
.
Let me add to my previous questions. Did you see any of the above questions in any of your other hives concerning drones?
.
Cool, Sunny and 63F, your killing me with envy. I am glad for you. Next thing you will be posting of pollen coming in, January no doubt at the latest. Best to you Californians and also Floridans with your early bloom. Please post pics of flowers, I adore seeing the flowers. Makes my day warm even if there is snow in the ground.
Blessings
Quote from: van from Arkansas on December 17, 2019, 08:50:09 PM
Cool, Sunny and 63F, your killing me with envy. I am glad for you. Next thing you will be posting of pollen coming in, January no doubt at the latest. Best to you Californians and also Floridans with your early bloom. Please post pics of flowers, I adore seeing the flowers. Makes my day warm even if there is snow in the ground.
Blessings
Chilly here tonight Mr Van
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Quote from: Ben Framed on December 17, 2019, 07:15:40 PM
Let me add to my previous questions. Did you see any of the above questions in any of your other hives concerning drones?
Phillip - I did not observe drone cells in this hive. However, I did note a small patch of capped drone cells in H2 during its inspection - I damaged several when removing a frame. So yes, there are a few drones being raised right now.
Also note - I haven't seen any hatched drones in of the hives in a month or 2.
Worth noting: it only drops below freezing here about once every 3 years or so - and only during the night usually for a day or 2. My hives have a brood nest year-round, which definitely impacts the high mite counts that's I've dealt with. My bees have "flying weather" - I'd guess about 340+ days per year. Maybe even 360 days.
Quote from: van from Arkansas on December 17, 2019, 08:50:09 PM
Cool, Sunny and 63F, your killing me with envy. I am glad for you. Next thing you will be posting of pollen coming in, January no doubt at the latest. Best to you Californians and also Floridans with your early bloom. Please post pics of flowers, I adore seeing the flowers. Makes my day warm even if there is snow in the ground.
Blessings
:grin: :grin: :grin: :cool: Sorry Mr Van. :grin:
There is quite a bit of pollen coming in right now, both yellow (from some low growing weeds/thistle cousins that grow everywhere here), and an off-white pollen (I'm assuming this might be from the nearby Eucalyptus stands).
Pollen seems to be the primary crop I have here. Many bees were bring it in while I was inspecting. When I inspected H4 (same day, but not mentioned here), I was trying to down-size it from 5 boxes - I found around 20 frames packed solid with pollen (bee bread?), so I only managed to get H4 down to 4 boxes. My bees bring in pollen year round basically. What I'm more limited on is nectar sources. I mite bee in the pollen business and just not know it yet. :cheesy:
I'll post some pictures for you when I get a chance.
Oh, and for the record, ... some of you guys have nectar flows that are "out of this world" good! I'd love to have the honey production levels that you achieve! ... each area has its uniqueness I guess
(H7 - was weird - 100% of the bees were jammed into the bottom box (5 medium frames), even though there were stores in the upper boxes. In the 4 frames that I inspected, I counted over 20 fully capped QC's! ... and brood in all stages. To my limited experience, it looked like they were getting ready to swarm - not that they have enough bees to to so, and the weather would kill them. Anyways, I reduced them to 2 boxes, and moved 1 brood frame up 1 box. ... we shall see.)
Alan could it be that the reason the bees 🐝 were rammed full in the bottom box is because that is where they choose, for what ever reason, to place these beautiful queen cells? And this being winter, all bunched together to assure they would be kept warm enough to hatch? Is this beyond possibility?
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 03:47:32 AM
Alan could it be that the reason the bees 🐝 were rammed full in the bottom box is because that is where they choose, for what ever reason, to place these beautiful queen cells? And this being winter, all bunched together to assure they would be kept warm enough to hatch? Is this beyond possibility?
Phillip
Phillip, yes this thought did cross my mind as the only logical explanation for what I observed. (Not that I have a high percentage of correct answers in beeking yet :cheesy:).
If that is indeed the correct answer: the the question becomes, "Why are they trying to raise queens in this weather/time of year, with a Laying queen that is 5 months old?".
Quote from: CoolBees on December 20, 2019, 01:30:48 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 03:47:32 AM
Alan could it be that the reason the bees 🐝 were rammed full in the bottom box is because that is where they choose, for what ever reason, to place these beautiful queen cells? And this being winter, all bunched together to assure they would be kept warm enough to hatch? Is this beyond possibility?
Phillip
Phillip, yes this thought did cross my mind as the only logical explanation for what I observed. (Not that I have a high percentage of correct answers in beeking yet :cheesy:).
If that is indeed the correct answer: the the question becomes, "Why are they trying to raise queens in this weather/time of year, with a Laying queen that is 5 months old?".
I have a theory that I have been keeping close to my vest Alan and have been building up to that theoretical answer. Please entertain and bare with me. :grin:
The confusion regarding H7's QC'S has been solved. The hive is queenless. When I inspected previously, there was still open brood. I did not bother to check for eggs, as I was in a hurry, and assumed they were there.
I took advantage of a warm weather break to re-inspect the hive today. All brood has been capped - there is no more open brood or eggs.
I split out 1 frame of QC's, and added Nurse Bees from H2 (which is very strong), to create an additional Nuc. My thoughts are: H2 can stand the loss, H7 is either going to make it or not, might as well take the opportunity to see if I can get mated queens in Dec.
I had 1 of the kids take some pics this time. Here are some of the QC'S.
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[attachment=1][/attachment]
[attachment=2][/attachment]
Awesome Allen, the queen cells that I see are at the bottom of the combs indicating swarm or supersedure cells. Now the mystery browdens. You know for sure that you had a laying queen at least two weeks ago or you would not have these beautiful queen cells. Where is she? Did she swarm leaving the hive? She is five month old was she intended to be superseded by the choice of the bees? If so, will the new champion virgin mate this late as you also asked? Just before the winter solstice? One more question, was the queen marked? Please keep us advised for the rest of the story. I very much appreciate you sharing this Alan,
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 08:05:19 PM
Awesome Allen, the queen cells that I see are at the bottom of the combs indicating swarm or supersedure cells. Now the mystery browdens. You know for sure that you had a laying queen at least two weeks ago or you would not have these beautiful queen cells. Where is she? Did she swarm leaving the hive? She is five month old was she intended to be superseded by the choice of the bees? If so, will the new champion virgin mate this late as you also asked? Just before the winter solstice? One more question, was the queen marked? Please keep us advised for the rest of the story. I very much appreciate you sharing this Alan,
Phillip
I just went back and looked at the picture once more. I tried to enlarge the pictures. From what I can tell, it looks like many capped drone bullet type topped cells on the first two frames. The third, was more questionable as the angle and clarity of the picture. If that is the case then maybe the drone cells are an indication the queen only wanted to lay unfertilized drone eggs in conjunction to the only queen cells for whatever reason? Or maybe drones are all the bees were interested in feeding at the present time beside the queen cells, the nurse bees may have very well removed all worker eggs and larva concentrating of raising drones and queens. I know this is reaching but is it beyond the realm of possibilities?
Phillip
Phillip, this hive had very few drones. Maybe 50 total. The cells are mostly capped worker brood.
This pic has some drones, as well as 2 qc's that at "embedded" into the face of the comb - never seen that before.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Most of the empty cells are being filled with nectar - thus the light refraction.
The hive may have swarmed. I don't know. The queen was not marked. I don't bother marking queens. This hive definitely had a queen 7 to 12 days ago. There were qc's all over the comb.
Many unanswered questions. ...
... duplicate post. Sorry.