Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

I have one hive that is queenless.  This hive, 5 frame nuc, was created from remains, 4 deep frames of a queen castle that was time to be dismantled.  So what to do with this queenless hive created about a week ago.

1.  I could newspaper combine.
2.  Provide a frame of eggs and young larva and let the bees make their own queen.
3.  Provide grafted larva for queen production.

Well, I tell ya, I did #2 and #3.

The bees made 2 queen cells from a frame of young larva.  Then I added a total of 6, six grafted larva and the bees accepted 5.  Time will tell if all 5 are made into capped queen cells.

This hive is not strong, remains of a queen castle, so I added a frame of pollen and bee bread.

I have never used an incidental queenless hive to raise queens.  This is all new territory to me.  I have read, studied, been told: raising queens takes lots of resources so when queen rearing I have always provided resources to the max: many nurse bees and lots of food.

For newbies: My queen castle consists of a 10 frame deep hive body that has sealed 4 compartments, each compartment with it own entrance.  Each compartment holds 2 deep frames, bees, and a virgin queen to make natural mating flights.  Once the queen is mated and laying she is ready for her own hive.
Blessings

[attachment=0][/attachment]

Showing 2 of 4 separated entrances.

[attachment=0][/attachment]

I placed 2 frames into 2 middle compartments for viewing.

[attachment=0][/attachment]
Top boards keep the compartments sealed when the lid is removed.  This way there is no mixing of bees as I remove only one top board at a time.

[attachment=0][/attachment]

Complete with lid now on the sealed compartments.

That?s interesting. I?ll have to try that someday

Van,
What is the success ratio with your queen castle?
I have built 2 different types with 0 success. One was a 3 hive, 3 deep frame castle and the other is a 4 medium 1/2 frames making a 4 hive castle.
Jim Altmiller

Similar results as sawduster with multi compartment queen castles.
 
The castles work great once a queen is mated and she needs a place to figure out her equipment and get a brood pattern established. It is basically a luxury queen bank.  Queens an their support staff complete with workout gym (combs to lay).

I have not had much luck with castles for getting the queens mated.  For mating, higher success in having queens in separate boxes.

Quote from: sawdstmakr on July 20, 2019, 06:25:57 PM
Van,
What is the success ratio with your queen castle?
I have built 2 different types with 0 success. One was a 3 hive, 3 deep frame castle and the other is a 4 medium 1/2 frames making a 4 hive castle.
Jim Altmiller

Jim, in 2018 I had 50 percent success.  This year was 75%.  Only takes one queen to make the difference between 50 verses 75 percent.  This year, I have noticed very few robber flies, last year was horrible for robber flies.  That is in 2018 there were lots of robber flies, most I have ever seen so I was pleased with 50% success.  A honey bee has no chance against these predators know as robber flies: so fast and deadly.
Van

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 20, 2019, 07:47:37 PM
Similar results as sawduster with multi compartment queen castles.
 
The castles work great once a queen is mated and she needs a place to figure out her equipment and get a brood pattern established. It is basically a luxury queen bank.  Queens an their support staff complete with workout gym (combs to lay).

I have not had much luck with castles for getting the queens mated.  For mating, higher success in having queens in separate boxes.

Luxury queen condo lol.
HO, can I guess your queens are getting lost on return flight to a castle, therefore individual boxes are better??  How do you maintain so many individual boxes?  My understanding is you are a mega queen breeder.  How many queens do you raise at a time?  I graft about 16 larva at a time, a whole lot fewer than the mega breeders.
Van

Robber fly as mentioned in reply #8, with yellow jacket, deadly to honeybees.
[attachment=0][/attachment]

Van

I?ve seen them before. And most times with something. Didn?t know what they where.

Van,
I have robber  flies here also. I have found them holding onto one of my bees but I have only seen 3 of them total. The last one I saw was in my Breese way and it was eating a horse fly. 🤗

Last year I went up to Georgia to get hay. On the way I saw a queen breeder placing small mating boxes on the ground. They were about a 6 inch cube box and they were in a almost perfect grid pattern that was about 40 by 40 or more. That is 1600 mating boxes. At $20 a queen, that is $32000 dollars worth of queens if they all made it. Pretty impressed.
Jim Altmiller

We have robber flies around here that mimic bumble bees very convincingly.  There is one that hangs around at the side of our house regularly, and it is huge.  I don't have much trouble with them and my bees, but they are quite a formidable predator insect.  :cool:
[attachment=0][/attachment]

Follow up:  see first post,,,, making queens cells from left over bees.

The bees did make and finish two capped queen cells.  However, they are small queen cells, I am not impressed as of this date 7/27/19.  Next week the queens should hatch, no guarantees at this point and we will see if the queens are worthy.
Blessings
Van

Quote from: van from Arkansas on July 27, 2019, 03:53:55 PM
Follow up:  see first post,,,, making queens cells from left over bees.

The bees did make and finish two capped queen cells.  However, they are small queen cells, I am not impressed as of this date 7/27/19.  Next week the queens should hatch, no guarantees at this point and we will see if the queens are worthy.
Blessings
Van

Good luck 🍀 Let is know.

Quote from: sawdstmakr on July 21, 2019, 08:21:22 AM
Van,
I have robber  flies here also. I have found them holding onto one of my bees but I have only seen 3 of them total. The last one I saw was in my Breese way and it was eating a horse fly. 🤗

Last year I went up to Georgia to get hay. On the way I saw a queen breeder placing small mating boxes on the ground. They were about a 6 inch cube box and they were in a almost perfect grid pattern that was about 40 by 40 or more. That is 1600 mating boxes. At $20 a queen, that is $32000 dollars worth of queens if they all made it. Pretty impressed.
Jim Altmiller

Jim that is impressive. I would like to see a syrup like that. I don?t know of a breeder in my area that is of that scale.  Sounds like this fellow knows his stuff. Did you get his name?

No. We did not stop. We were hauling a 40 foot trailer loaded with 34-1000 pound rolls of hay.
Jim Altmiller

A queen hatched 7/28, destroyed her sisters in the other queen cells.  I laid eyes on the virgin queen this day.  Now to see if she returns from a mating flight.

Next inspection for this hive is two weeks, mid August, and hopefully I will see eggs and larva.  So far so good.
Van

Quote from: van from Arkansas on July 29, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
A queen hatched 7/28, destroyed her sisters in the other queen cells.  I laid eyes on the virgin queen this day.  Now to see if she returns from a mating flight.

Next inspection for this hive is two weeks, mid August, and hopefully I will see eggs and larva.  So far so good.
Van

Fingers crossed 🤞🏻 for you Sir.

Awesome.

I'm amazed by the way beekeeping has developed.

See first post for details.

7/28, queen hatched, today 8/6 there is two frames of eggs and larva.  Apparently the queen started laying 4-5 days ago based on the size of the larva.  So the queen hatched 7/28 and within 4-5 days was mated and laying.  I have never heard such.

Also the queens cells were small unimpressive contrary to hatching a large beautiful queen that mated and was laying in 4-5 days.

The virgin queen was to be inspected mid August, I up the date a week early to today do to threat of hive beetles.  There were only 5 hive beetles, 3 were killed.

This little test, new endeavor I tried has worked out beautifully.
Cheers to all.
Van

I have heard more than one  beekeeper say small cells don?t matter. Perhaps you can concur; now?
😊😁

Good for you and your new queen!
Phillip

Absolutely Mr. Ben Framed; small queen cells can pack big surprises.  I did notice the virgin queen cell had a good bit of Royal Jelly left in the cell after the queen hatched.  This tells me the queen had plenty to eat.

The golden rule concerning queen production is surplus Royal Jelly.  That means:
1. extra nurse bees, I mean lots and lots of nurse bees.
2. Stores: plenty of nectar/honey and pollen.

Fact, stores/Royal Jelly are so critical concerning raising queens, a large hive is used to finish queen cells whereas a small hive full of nurse bees is used to start the queen cells.  A poorly fed queen looks beautiful but will not lay as well as a queen that is well fed while developing.  Feeding developing queens is #1 concern.

BTW  When is Ben and Cool going so start grafting and raising their own queens.  You both have what it takes, and no mail order queen is as good as your own raised queen.  Obtain the best genetics with your desired traits and prepare yourself to be amazed.  Unless you are already raising your own.
Blessings
Van

Quote from: van from Arkansas on August 06, 2019, 10:27:43 PM
Absolutely Mr. Ben Framed; small queen cells can pack big surprises.  I did notice the virgin queen cell had a good bit of Royal Jelly left in the cell after the queen hatched.  This tells me the queen had plenty to eat.

The golden rule concerning queen production is surplus Royal Jelly.  That means:
1. extra nurse bees, I mean lots and lots of nurse bees.
2. Stores: plenty of nectar/honey and pollen.

Fact, stores/Royal Jelly are so critical concerning raising queens, a large hive is used to finish queen cells whereas a small hive full of nurse bees is used to start the queen cells.  A poorly fed queen looks beautiful but will not lay as well as a queen that is well fed while developing.  Feeding developing queens is #1 concern.

BTW  When is Ben and Cool going so start grafting and raising their own queens.  You both have what it takes, and no mail order queen is as good as your own raised queen.  Obtain the best genetics with your desired traits and prepare yourself to be amazed.  Unless you are already raising your own.
Blessings
Van

Good information Mr Van.  I can not speak for Alan but I think I can safely say Alan and I are both in the learning process as we are steady seeking knowledge. I say that as going by his post and my thoughts also. I seriously considered grafting this past spring as well as other methods of queen rearing, such as (Nicot in which I failed), it wasn?t the fault of Nicot but strictly my own mistake. I hope to once again, this coming spring, to have plenty of wood ware prepared, as I have pretty well filled most of what I had prepared last winter. If plans of more wood ware are fulfilled, I fully intend to (get to grafting).  I have purchased German, JBZB, and Chinese grafting tools as well as jewelers? viewer, magnifying glasses, and a desktop magnifying lamp.  Thank you for your encouragement Mr Van.
Phillip

Grafting is s piece of cake, I tell ya.  When I started my first graft acceptance was about one in five.  The second was one in 4, the next about 1 in 3.  Each time I improved as I learned to stream line my movements and be choosy,  Last spring I achieved 100 percent, my first.  Standard acceptance is about 80-90 percent depending on the time of year.

You will improve with each graft attempt.  Grafting is so rewarding, so much fun. I receive emails form some very experienced beeks with pics of grafted queen cells, the fellas still get excited when the grafted larva are made into queen cells.  They still boast: Hey lookie at what I did, proud happy fellas showing off their beautiful work, the admirable queen cells.
You have all winter to study grafting.
Blessings
Van

Van - I thought I already spelled out how lazy I am.  :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cool: :cool: :grin:

I've got an efficient solution to grafting though - I'm gonna buy Phillip all the supplies he needs to graft. Then I can fedex my ladies eggs to him, let him graft them, and he can ship me back my queens. Genius I tell ya', pure-dee genius!!!  :cheesy:

Per Van, grafting and acceptance improves with practice.  However, that is only stage 1 and 2, a small percentage of the process to ending with a nice fat mated queen.
As you get better at each stage, the next will beat you down.  When you finally have your own system down that delivers satisfactory success at all stages, only then can be truly content with the results.

Quote from: Ben Framed on August 06, 2019, 01:33:31 PM
I have heard more than one  beekeeper say small cells don?t matter. Perhaps you can concur; now?


Good for you and your new queen!
Phillip

I have seen some impressively large queens come out of runty looking cells.  I would say nevermind the cell.  Nor nevermind the queen on the day she emerged.  Check her 3 to 5 days after emergence.  You may be surprised and quite impressed by the mass and size she can take on in those first days. This is in the period before mating.
I have also seen queens emerge very large but then actually shrink to where the day(s) before her mating flight she is no bigger, perhaps smaller, than some of those small cells queens. 
Some great queens, exceeding other stocks, have come from cells that I had come very close to culling at cell stage. My practice now is let them go for it. Though, if they are runty or show some ailment at 3 to 5 days after emergence they may be pinched.

Quote from: CoolBees on August 07, 2019, 02:15:40 AM
Van - I thought I already spelled out how lazy I am.  :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cool: :cool: :grin:

I've got an efficient solution to grafting though - I'm gonna buy Phillip all the supplies he needs to graft. Then I can fedex my ladies eggs to him, let him graft them, and he can ship me back my queens. Genius I tell ya', pure-dee genius!!!  :cheesy:

Well, HUM, believe it or not;  I am at a loss for words!!! LOL :shocked: :cheesy:

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on August 07, 2019, 02:21:54 AM
Per Van, grafting and acceptance improves with practice.  However, that is only stage 1 and 2, a small percentage of the process to ending with a nice fat mated queen.
As you get better at each stage, the next will beat you down.  When you finally have your own system down that delivers satisfactory success at all stages, only then can be truly content with the results.

Mr HP I understand your words especially the stage 3.  I feel that I have been very fortunate in being as successful as I have this season, being I know of no other beekeeper within a two mile radios of my bees. Doesn't mean that there are no others, but means I know of none. So, having virgins coming back mated is a pleasantry that I am both puzzled and thankful. I hope to remedy stage 3 by next season. Not just relying on unseen circumstances but actually making a move in the right direction on this most important step. Will you kindly give suggestions as to how to properly go about this step?
Thanks, Phillip

The road to a good queen is well over a month long journey.  Stages, in brief summary format.
1. Selection of mature mother queen from proven colony performance.
2. Selection of different drone mother(s) from colony performance.
3. Foster/encourage drone making 3 to 4 weeks before queen graft.
4. Setup of hopelessly, desperately queenless cell starter colony.
5. Grafting
6. Graft acceptance, cell started
7. Cell feeding / finishing / capping in a strong cell finisher colony.
8. Cell incubating; in a hive or artificial
9. Setup of hopelessly queenless receiving colony(s) to receive the cell so they do not cut down/destroy it.
10. Successful emergence from the cell.
11. Acceptance and feed/care of the VQ by the colony.
12. Hardening and maturing. Growth and strengthening for flight.
13.  Good flying weather
14.  Presence of mature drones
15.  LUCK
16.  Queen returns to the right box
17.  Incubating/processing of sperm. Development of egg laying systems
18.  Start laying
19.  Proven laying pattern and brood viability over 2weeks period.
20.  Preparation of final receiving colony.
21.  Handling and transport / shipping to new location.
22. Successful introduction, acceptance into the final colony.

Every step above is blessed with success or halted by failure.

When you see a tight pattern of glistening larvae in the final colony, it is no small trivial feat.  She?s been through a-lot to get there!.

Good post THP,
Thanks for posting that list.
Jim Altmiller

Thank you Mr. HP for the detailed diagram and thought that you put into it. As you said each step is critical. My specific concern as stated In my post number 29 is setting up a proper circumstance in which l help assure my virgin queens have a better chance of mating. As I said I feel that I have been very fortunate in being as successful as I have this season, being I know of no other beekeeper within a two mile radios of my bees. And from what I have read and been told, a virgin will not mate with drones from the same  Apiary. Is this accurate?  Doesn't mean that there are no others bees or beekeeper in my area, but I know of none. So, having virgins coming back mated is a pleasantry that I am both puzzled and thankful. I hope to remedy this gap,  by next season by making a move in the right direction on this most important step. Setting up a drone conjuration area suitable for my needs.  This is where I can use specific help, guidance, and direction.
Thanks,
Phillip

I realize This has gotten off track from the original topic I am going to forward to a new topic. Thanks Phillip

What are some good books to read or videos to watch on this subject?

Quote from: Ben Framed on August 07, 2019, 02:40:08 AM

Well, HUM, believe it or not;  I am at a loss for words!!! LOL :shocked: :cheesy:

:grin: Phillip - the way I figure it, you'll get Queen Grafting perfected long before I start trying to figure it out. So there's no point in 2 of us up-and-comers both doing the same work!  :cool:

(Hopefully I made you smile. Cheers man!)  :tongue:

Quote from: CoolBees on August 07, 2019, 02:15:40 AM
Van - I thought I already spelled out how lazy I am.  :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cool: :cool: :grin:

I've got an efficient solution to grafting though - I'm gonna buy Phillip all the supplies he needs to graft. Then I can fedex my ladies eggs to him, let him graft them, and he can ship me back my queens. Genius I tell ya', pure-dee genius!!!  :cheesy:

Cool: You say your lazy???  har Har har!!!  I know you hunt western Montana.  Not possible to be lazy and hunt that area.
Van

Quote from: van from Arkansas on August 07, 2019, 01:05:53 PM

Quote from: CoolBees on August 07, 2019, 02:15:40 AM
Van - I thought I already spelled out how lazy I am.  :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cool: :cool: :grin:

I've got an efficient solution to grafting though - I'm gonna buy Phillip all the supplies he needs to graft. Then I can fedex my ladies eggs to him, let him graft them, and he can ship me back my queens. Genius I tell ya', pure-dee genius!!!  :cheesy:

Cool: You say your lazy???  har Har har!!!  I know you hunt western Montana.  Not possible to be lazy and hunt that area.
Van

Just being resourceful. Using the head for more than a hat 🎩 rack.  :cheesy:

Quote from: CoolBees on August 07, 2019, 12:37:18 PM

Quote from: Ben Framed on August 07, 2019, 02:40:08 AM

Well, HUM, believe it or not;  I am at a loss for words!!! LOL :shocked: :cheesy:

:grin: Phillip - the way I figure it, you'll get Queen Grafting perfected long before I start trying to figure it out. So there's no point in 2 of us up-and-comers both doing the same work!  :cool:

(Hopefully I made you smile. Cheers man!)  :tongue:

Yes you did.. I like the resourceful approach.. I have come to realize if a person is serious about grafting and is successful, that person had better be bee 🐝 prepared with enough equipment to house the queens=colonies raised.  We had better be careful Alan or we may very well have bees running out of our ears!!  Even if only one of us is doing the grafting LOL 😂....
Phillip

Quote from: van from Arkansas on August 07, 2019, 01:05:53 PM

Cool: You say your lazy???  har Har har!!!  I know you hunt western Montana.  Not possible to be lazy and hunt that area.
Van

Hahahaha! ... weeellll ... you have me cornered there Van!  :cool:

Boots, backpack, public land, and good glass. Ok - the Best Glass. That's how it's done. Person success rate across 30 yrs - over 70%.  :grin: ... yeah - you got me.

Speaking of which - I drew a cow tag in a trophy area - I'll have to chase that one with the bow in Sept. Also drew a Trophy Zone Permit this yr - after many yrs of trying. Only 3 issued to Non-res each yr. My son and I both drew it. Late season after the migration - no competition - trophy Bulls standing around relaxing - and my son and I have 2 out of the 3 Permits. Maybe I can get a 2nd 400 Class Bull before I'm too old to do it anymore.  :cool: ... it's gonna be a fun season either way - can't wait!  :cool:

Total thread hijack BTW ... :)

Quote from: Ben Framed on August 07, 2019, 02:38:13 PM
....  We had better be careful Alan or we may very well have bees running out of our ears!!  Even if only one of us is doing the grafting LOL 😂....
Phillip

That sounds like a plan Phillip! I can think of many worse things, and very few better ones!

A second 400 class bull, no way Jose.  Show me the G3 and I will believe.

7x7 - official SCI score 403 & 0/8ths. ... 2004. He looks good on the wall!

I can show the entire Score Sheet + pics if you PM me your # or email - if you'd like.