This afternoon I am watching my bees as usual. Bees are just out my back door so daily visitations are the norm. All 17 hives behaving the same except for one. All hives have typical activity on the entrance, except this one hive, inwhich all of the sudden this one hive has very little entrance activity.
Time for a quick inspection as the temp is almost 90F and getting dark soon. So I inspect with no smoke, I remove the lid and there are very few bees compared to normal. Barely enough bees to prevent robbing, or, to prevent beetle take over. In the top deep I see frames of capped honey, some open frames of nectar, goldenrod by the smell, and a few, like 50 capped brood cells, no larva or eggs seen. I did not go beyond the top deep, light is fading. This was my second largest hive, 3 deeps and full of bees and honey just 4 weeks ago. That is why I used the word CRASH in the subject, so fast.
The bees are gentle but telling me they need help. Kind of hard to explain but the bees talk to me with their actions and clearly the bees are asking for help.
The queen is 3.7 years old and my fear is; she has failed. Tomorrow, I can make a full inspection, reduce hive space and look for eggs and/or the queen. I would GUESS there are 5,000 bees at most in this hive. Not near enough bees.
I will fix what ever the problem is tomorrow morning and I will provide you with an update.. I have 4 spare queens for just such an emergency so no worries there.
Blessings
Van
Good luck. I?ll be waiting for updates. How do you keep Queens?
Update, although I was quick to open, inspect, reduce entrance to 3/4 inch and close the hive, only taking 2-3 minutes, the weak hive was discovered and is now being robbed. Now bees are all over the entrance. Not a good way to end my day. Already sundown so soon bees will be back to their hives.
Van
Quote from: Nock on September 30, 2019, 08:42:04 PM
Good luck. I?ll be waiting for updates. How do you keep Queens?
5 frame nucs.
In this scenario, would you close up the entrance to prevent further robbing until you do your next inspection tomorrow?
Good idea, Tom, it would be easy to close the 3/4 inch entrance, just need a small rock. So, yes, it is dark now and I will place a rock over the small opening.
Van
Van, Sorry to hear it. I know that keening/crying sound you described, when bees are distressed. I've had to fend off robbing a few times.
You probably you know this....while you are removing frames for now, so the bees have less to patrol, you might hang up some netting around the hive, perhaps from an overhead branch, if you have one nearby. Or PVC irrigation pipe and corner fittings can quickly frame up an-hoc tent where you can work without the robbers starting a Big Bee War.
When then lid is on again, and all that hive's bees go back in the robbing screen, a soaked sheet is really helpful to drape over the hive.
Mr Van, I am sorry for your loss. I know that you will be able to diagnose the problem once you have a good opportunity to do a complete and thorough inspection. One can only guess the cause at the present. Whether it be a older failing queen, mites, or something else, I am again sorry for your loss. If one of my hives go backward under any circumstance, it bothers me at this stage of my beekeeping experience and limited knowledge. I have so much to learn and experience is the very best teacher along with the good folks here giving good information, such as you in your particular situation. I am looking on with anticipation in your finding out the answer to this problem as we all learn. Thanks,
Phillip
Good Morning Beeks of Beemaster.
4:00 AM: awake, having coffee, and waiting on daylight. Did not sleep well as I was worried about this hive.
Van
I?m up
Quote from: van from Arkansas on September 30, 2019, 08:43:49 PM
Update, although I was quick to open, inspect, reduce entrance to 3/4 inch and close the hive, only taking 2-3 minutes, the weak hive was discovered and is now being robbed. Now bees are all over the entrance. Not a good way to end my day. Already sundown so soon bees will be back to their hives.
Van
Dumb q but how do you spot robbing behavior versus orientation flight where bees are also all over the entrance?
Robbing increases with intensity until the hive is gone.
I would compress them. Remove all the empty stuff, any slimy looking stuff, anything with any wax moth webs or larvae, then continue removing (and shaking any bees back) until the combs are pretty well covered in bees. Anything that is empty I would leave off. Anything else I would give to a strong hive. Reduce the entrance with screen wire to confuse robbers, to just enough for one bee to get in and out. See how they do.
Quote from: saltybluegrass on October 01, 2019, 07:08:45 AM
Quote from: van from Arkansas on September 30, 2019, 08:43:49 PM
Update, although I was quick to open, inspect, reduce entrance to 3/4 inch and close the hive, only taking 2-3 minutes, the weak hive was discovered and is now being robbed. Now bees are all over the entrance. Not a good way to end my day. Already sundown so soon bees will be back to their hives.
Van
Dumb q but how do you spot robbing behavior versus orientation flight where bees are also all over the entrance?
Good Morning Salty. With orientation flights the bees hoover is a circle in front of the entrance. With robbing the robbers are at every seem, every joint, at the roof of the hive, on the sides of the hive, robbers are everywhere clinging to the outside walls trying to find a back door. Robbing can be spotted at a distance due to bees all over the outside walls.
If the situation permits, I will take a pic, to me, a horrible pic but one to learn from.
Van
Thanks for the replies Bush, Ace, Ben, FlGardener, Nock!!!
Thanks van good morning to you and blessings come about to you
I saved some frames of honey and pollen. The rest of the frames are being robbed out. After robbing is over and the bees of the hive cluster, then I can relocate the bees. Currently I cannot distinguish between robbers and the real owners of the hive. No eggs no larva and very spotty brood as shown in the pics below. Lots of Varroa mite sign, frass everywhere, even seeing live mites as I removed some wax of the capped cells. This hive was treated 9/12/19 with Oxalic acid vapor, 2 grams for 3 deep hive bodies. Kinda of lite on the amount of acid I used. There was hundreds of dead mite drop on the bottom board a few days after treatment. This hive was my heaviest mite infested hive judging by mite drop. Between queen failure and mites, this hive was not savable. The infested spotty brood frame is in the freezer.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Found the queen, healthy looking 3.7 year old, but failed past 4 weeks. See pic below of brood, very spotty, no eggs, no larva.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Screened bottom board: many dead bees from fighting robbers, dead pupae from Varroa.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Such a spotty brood pattern is one sign of queen failure. There were about 2 mites in half the capped cells I opened.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Look at the right bee and see the small hive beetle eggs. Beetles started laying last night, about 12 eggs per capped larva. Eggs laid through a tiny, very small hole in the cap. One can see the white mite Frass on upper side walls.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Dead Varroa on the thorax. This hive was treated 9/12/19. I believe the mite transversed the Oxalic acid, enter a cell, cell was capped and the mite subsequently died in the cell.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Small hive beetle eggs, totals were in the hundreds.
I know it?s no help but better to have loved than....
I?m nursing one out of 4 original hives through my first 5 months and 3 put togethers through winter.
Your help and experience will keep me sane through these times.
I wonder why the colony didn?t prepare more Q cells. Because they relied on her too much and they suspected no problems?
Why no queen cells, Salty ask? Good question. Maybe no nurse bees, maybe queen shut down suddenly and as the bees realized it was to late. I have seen this before, queen failure and no queen cells. Remember the queen is old, 3.7 years. Yes I have heard of queens living 5-6 years but I believe 6 years is not a typical lifespan. The queen is not marked however she is Cordovan so no marking needed.
Van
Lot of good pics. Thanks for update
Live Varroa:
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Will you do a treatment then consolidate or both?
[attachment=0][/attachment]
I magnified the beetle eggs. A little bit fuzzy, sorry. I counted 12 eggs laid on the larva head through a tiny hole in the capping the size of a dot in this sentence... I found multiple beetle nest each with about 12 eggs each placed on larva, just underneath the wax capping. I removed the eggs from off the larva head and placed on a capped cell for viewing.
Van
Sorry about the hive, Van. Great pictures though. At least in these situations there is always the opportunity to learn, for both you and for newbees like me.
So sad to see this Van. Always seems to be the good big ones that the VM PMS take down in October. Repeat treatments in the fall are necessary to stave off infestations coming from neighbours and final brood cycles.
There are mentions above of an older queen failing. Imho, she is not responsible for this crash.
The following shared experience is likely regional to my climate which is a long cold confined winter. I have seen big hives abruptly go queenless in September/October and survive through the winter to spring when I am able go give them a queen in March. Obviously the prerequisite is the hive is otherwise healthy, no pests or disease. Here, A hive gone queenless late fall is not doomed. They can hang on, restart with new queen in spring, and the hive keeps going into the next bee season. Also, In my climate, rarely are attempts made for queen cells late in season. They seem to opt to hunker down and hang on for spring. Freezing temperatures and snow on the doorstep may have something to do with that.
To set the end posts of what I am saying above. Here: Winter means October 20. Spring means March 18.
So, imho not your beautiful queens fault there Van. Chalk on another hive on the mite score stick. :(
Hope that helps, in some way.
HP, I appreciate your input. I still have the queen in an incubator and I am hand feeding her. I could start a 5 frame nuc and introduce her. However, I am at 16 hives and my max is 20. I have little room for splits next year so I really don?t want another hive at this point. However this ol gal, the queen has been with me for going on four years. I have her sister, same age, actually 3.7 years named Alpha, a super queen by laying standards. Decisions decisions decisions???
When I say sister queens: the two queens have same mother grafted eggs from, different dads of course. So I use the term sister, it is rather loosely, not literally.
Van
Van, how do you know the queens have different Dads?
Heartbreaking.
So sorry, Van.
Paus, good question. The queen mom most likely breed with at least 10 drones. The chance of full sister are slim; 10 percent or less. Like I said, I use the term sister loosely not literally for that reason. I did not want to go into detail on the genetics as some beeks find genetics boring. Also there is debate on how many drones a queen actually breeds with and how many mating flights a queen goes on. So I was trying to keep it simple.
Blessings
Van
Good point Van, but for those that may be interested I have been told that the sperm from a drone is "stacked". Of course there will be some mixing, which explains two different kinds of bees in the same hive. This is supposed to explain why some hives become aggressive and then after some time, return to docile ladies.
Paus, regarding stacking; sperm are never still unless it cold or dead. Spermatozoa are always mobile so I cannot understand how segregation could be accomplished. The spermatozoa are maintained in a 10 microliter [10/1,000,000] sack called a spermateca. However when ever I say I cannot understand note there are infinite facts I am not aware of.
Blessings to you Paus
Van
Mr. Van: sorry for your loss. I would recommend treating all your hives ASAP as the robbers are sure to take these parasites back to their home hives.. Thanks for all the pictures and commentary. A real eye opener once again for me as I remember what Member went through last season. Beeboy01 also.
May you find blessing out of the ashes.
Phillip
Van, certainly in 4 years you made splits from this queen so her legacy lives on. You had four good years that is your bright side.
[ quoting Van
2 on: September 30, 2019, 08:43:49 pm ?
Quote
Update, although I was quick to open, inspect, reduce entrance to 3/4 inch and close the hive, only taking 2-3 minutes, the weak hive was discovered and is now being robbed. Now bees are all over the entrance. Not a good way to end my day. Already sundown so soon bees will be back to their hives.
Van
quote author=Ben Framed link=topic=52909.msg475263#msg475263 date=1569994061]
Mr. Van: sorry for your loss. I would recommend treating all your hives ASAP as the robbers are sure to take these parasites back to their home hives.. Thanks for all the pictures and commentary. A real eye opener once again for me as I remember what Member went through last season. Beeboy01 also.
May you find blessing out of the ashes.
Phillip
[/quote]
Mr Van, let me reemphasize the importance of treating the rest of your hives for mites immediately.
Phillip
TOP STORIES ENVIRONMENT
Beekeepers battle mites with technology
?According to Papendieck, bees easily transmit the mite to other beekeepers' hives in what apiarists call robbery.
"It happens when certain colonies are being robbed by other bees. Large numbers of bees from different colonies attack weak hives and steal their stocks. At the same time, parasites and diseases are exchanged", he says.
Researchers have been trying to breed varroa-resistant mites, but so far they haven't had much success.?
Quote from: Ben Framed on October 03, 2019, 10:26:27 AM
Researchers have been trying to breed varroa-resistant mites,
Huh, what the heck is this?
Just a typo I suspect. Should be Varroa resistance bees.
Quote from: Acebird on October 04, 2019, 08:56:10 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on October 03, 2019, 10:26:27 AM
Researchers have been trying to breed varroa-resistant mites,
Huh, what the heck is this?
I quoted so I dared not change their words. I think we all understand their meaning?
Quote from: Ben Framed on October 03, 2019, 10:26:27 AM
[ quoting Van
2 on: September 30, 2019, 08:43:49 pm ?
Quote
Update, although I was quick to open, inspect, reduce entrance to 3/4 inch and close the hive, only taking 2-3 minutes, the weak hive was discovered and is now being robbed. Now bees are all over the entrance. Not a good way to end my day. Already sundown so soon bees will be back to their hives.
Van
quote author=Ben Framed link=topic=52909.msg475263#msg475263 date=1569994061]
Mr. Van: sorry for your loss. I would recommend treating all your hives ASAP as the robbers are sure to take these parasites back to their home hives.. Thanks for all the pictures and commentary. A real eye opener once again for me as I remember what Member went through last season. Beeboy01 also.
May you find blessing out of the ashes.
Phillip
Mr Van, let me reemphasize the importance of treating the rest of your hives for mites immediately.
Phillip
TOP STORIES ENVIRONMENT
Beekeepers battle mites with technology
?According to Papendieck, bees easily transmit the mite to other beekeepers' hives in what apiarists call robbery.
"It happens when certain colonies are being robbed by other bees. Large numbers of bees from different colonies attack weak hives and steal their stocks. At the same time, parasites and diseases are exchanged", he says.
Researchers have been trying to breed varroa-resistant mites, but so far they haven't had much success.?
[/quote]
Good advice, yes, treat as the robbers carry the hitch hikers back to new hives. Thanks Phil
Your welcome Mr Van. I had reasoned that you had probably done this, but in the case that a newer beekeeper, which may have the same unpleasant experience in the future, would not only learn from your very informing information, but also be reminded of the importance of protecting the remaining hives from the hitchhiking mites, as timing is critical.
Phillip