Settling an argument.
A store owner wanted to move a bunch of store brand honey back inside so as not to ?turn white? as he put it from freezing.
I was always under the understanding that it was very difficult for pasteurized honey to crystallize.
Agreed Aroc, that is the point of heating honey to 140F: prevents crystals. The scientific word is DENATURED a permanent alteration of the structure that cannot revert. When eggs are cooked, turned to a solid that is denatured state, permanent and cannot be reverted back to original raw liquid state. When DNA is exposed to pH of 8.0 and higher, the DNA becomes denatured, that is the DNA with never combine into double stranded as natural original state.
Maybe more info than you wanted, the point is honey is denatured at 140F and higher temps.
Van
I am thinking Mr Van is spot on: But; being it is liquid, does honey freeze? If so, and if it is in glass bottles it will burst just like water in a frozen glass bottle will. But honey may not freeze to a solid? I do not know but this is interesting.
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on November 04, 2019, 10:19:27 PM
I am thinking Mr Van is spot on: But; being it is liquid, does honey freeze? If so, and if it is in glass bottles it will burst just like water in a frozen glass bottle will. But honey may not freeze to a solid? I do not know but this is interesting.
Phillip
I agree Phillip, quite interesting. A quick perusal of my favorite question answering site, Quora, reveals that honey does not truly freeze in the scientific sense of the word, meaning it doesn't ever become a true solid. Even down to -4F honey will continue to flow, albeit very slowly. At anywhere between -44F and -60F honey will undergo something called "vitrification", meaning it will become a material similar to glass. But glass is not a normal solid, it's what's known as an "amorphous" substance. It lacks the standard crystalline structure of normal solids, which makes it kind of somewhere between a liquid and a solid on an atomic level. Here's a quote I found, if anyone is interested in the chemistry aspects.
"Honey contains appr 80 grams of sugars per 100 grams. The remaining 20% is mainly water. The water in honey is not very likely 'free' water: the water molecules behave differently from water molecules in a glass of water. Whereas in the latter they interact a.o. by hydrogen bonding with surrounding water molecules, in honey the limited number of water molecules interact predominantly with the hydroxyl (-OH) side groups of the sugar molecules and are therefore not readily available to freeze crystalline.
Sugars and carbohydrates act as cryo protectants (anti-freeze) for that reason. The high concentration significantly lowers the melting point to such an extent that storing in a standard freezer would never freeze the honey. Due to the extremely high concentrations in honey the thick syrup will also at lower temperatures than observed in standard freezers not freeze but become more and more viscous and form a vitrified (non-crystalline) solid. Solid is not the correct word, but it is to be understood the way glass appears solid, whereas actually it is a very viscous liquid."
Kantor Z, Pitsi G, Thoen J.
J. of Agricultural and Food Chemistry 47 (1999) pages 2327-2330.
Based on this information, I would guess that honey wouldn't be at much risk of expanding in a freezer, since its water molecules are essentially too tied up to expand, and to my knowledge, water is the only liquid that expands significantly as it freezes.
Pasteurization by itself doesn't stop crystallization it slows it down. Ultra filtration prevents crystallization because there is nothing to seed the crystal.
Crystals of honey are formed based on glucose content. Honey with low glucose and high fructose such as Tupelo, or acacia rarely to never crystallize.
Member, freezing is the process of converting to a solid. Steel freezes at 2,000F, water at 32F or 0C at sea level. Carbon dioxide, dry ice freezes at about minus 80F(about)..
Van
Quote from: van from Arkansas on November 05, 2019, 10:24:50 AM
Member, freezing is the process of converting to a solid. Steel freezes at 2,000F, water at 32F or 0C at sea level. Carbon dioxide, dry ice freezes at about minus 80F(about)..
Perhaps this sentence of mine was poorly worded.
Quote from: The15thMember on November 05, 2019, 12:55:42 AM
A quick perusal of my favorite question answering site, Quora, reveals that honey does not truly freeze in the scientific sense of the word, meaning it doesn't ever become a true solid.
I wasn't trying to say that frozen honey isn't a solid or that honey cannot freeze. What I probably should have put is, "honey doesn't freeze normally", as opposed to "honey doesn't truly freeze". There is some debate as to whether amorphous solids should be classified as solids or not, so that was where I was coming from. Bad wording on my part, I apologize.
Quote from: Ben Framed on November 04, 2019, 10:19:27 PM
I am thinking Mr Van is spot on: But; being it is liquid, does honey freeze? If so, and if it is in glass bottles it will burst just like water in a frozen glass bottle will. But honey may not freeze to a solid? I do not know but this is interesting.
Phillip
Phil, I store honey in the freezer, and use all year. The honey thickens and is less than 18 percent moisture. I cannot comment on honey with high moisture content, to many variables.
Also, On another note, almost all substances shrink when frozen. Water is an exception and expands which is not the norm for most matter. So the question of honey breaking a glass jar when frozen,,,, no worries if typical honey that is 18 percent or less moisture and stored in a typical freezer.
Blessings
Van
You two make a good pair of scientific minds. This has been interesting and informative!!