As I mentioned on Alan's thread about lessons from 2019 and goals for 2020, one of my goals this year is to start learning how to build some of my own equipment, specifically boxes, to save some money. The problem: I have ZERO knowledge about woodworking, and I mean ZERO. It's just not the kind of thing I've ever done because it's not something I am naturally skilled at; I'm not artistic or good with spatial reasoning or figuring out how things work without a manual. I am first and foremost a book-learner, and my problem solving skills in this area are extremely bad. I also unfortunately don't know anyone who knows how to work with wood either. The hands-on help I do have is a father who has a basic man's understanding of tools (if that makes sense) and can build simple things with the help of a plan, and I have an artistic sister who is more naturally inclined in this direction (for example, she built a hay rack for her goats without any plans or anything). So, with this background information in mind, what would you recommend as a first step to learning how to at least build my own boxes? Book recommendations, YouTube videos/channels, plain old advice, detailed step-by-step instructions, whatever; any and all advice is welcome. To quote the movie "Margin Call", just remember to "speak to me as you would a 2-year-old or a golden retriever", because I'm a total beginner. :grin:
Hello Member:
I need to know a few things for my own reason.
How many boxes do you wish to have. Be specific with size such as: 10 frame or 8, deeps or supers[what deep]. Frames with foundation or without, split or grove, what type bottoms, what type tops.
Making frames would required a skilled carpenter as well as specific equipment.
Please NO personal information, this is a public forum. Just answer above with respect to bee hives.
Blessings
Van
Quote from: van from Arkansas on January 17, 2020, 05:36:23 PM
Hello Member:
I need to know a few things for my own reason.
How many boxes do you wish to have. Be specific with size such as: 10 frame or 8, deeps or supers[what deep]. Frames with foundation or without, split or grove, what type bottoms, what type tops.
Please NO personal information, this is a public forum. Just answer above with respect to bee hives.
Blessings
Van
I use mostly 8 frame mediums, split top bars, no foundation, bottom bars don't really matter to me, and migratory covers. How many boxes do I need? Well, I have 4 hives now, I'd like to expand to 6-8 next year, and I do have some mediums unassembled still in the garage, so . . . a rough estimate would be like 10. I'm not necessarily expecting to be able to make my equipment for this upcoming year though, I'd just like to start learning how so that I can do so in the future.
Quote from: van from Arkansas on January 17, 2020, 05:36:23 PM
Making frames would required a skilled carpenter as well as specific equipment.
Neither of which I have access to, so definitely beyond my goals at this point. What I'd really like to start with is just the mediums.
I used this plan to build my stuff.
https://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/10-frame-langstroth-beehive-barry-birkey/
The key to building boxes is the inside measurements. I have used odd thickness boards and all kinds of corners including just nailing boards together with plain edges. Just try and get the inside right so frames fit and bee space is correct. I use a table saw and two cuts to make a frame rest but have made traps with just an extra piece of plywood or board nailed on each end to give a frame rest. You have to make the box a little longer to do this and it makes the box heavy but is easy. One other super important thing is to get your cuts square. If you don't, the box will not sit flat after be put together. In the end, the bees don't care as much as I do. I have used boxes that don't sit flat and don't like it but have never had a hive die because of it. I am better at building now than when I first started.
Watching you tube videos and having a plan to build from has helped me a lot. A table saw helps a lot and that is all I use but I could build boxes with a circular saw. Table saw is better though. I have die the sides with finger joints but now never take the time for them cause the boxes seem to work fine with out them. I do not glue. I just use brads now but have used nails and screws. The brads are faster if you have a compressor and screws are most expensive to work with. I don't use glue because it just cost too much and works with out it unless you move the hives alot. Drywall screws and some brads will rust over time and break.
I hope some of this helps you,
Cheers
gww
i have built all my equipment in the past and have all the necessary equipment however i will not build any frames again they are not worth the time it takes. its cheaper to buy.
i would recommend that you buy a deep and a medium frame to know that you are making the boxes the right size. i wish you the best and i will say that wood working is a skill you can carry as a hobby into old age. 1936 til now bought a wood lathe at 14. there are lots of instructions and specs for hives on the net . download and print.
I get the enjoyable feeling that I'm "building" boxes and frames when I'm just assembling them. :cheesy:
The cost of clear pine wood is so high that it's cheaper to buy pre-cut, pre-drilled, flat-packed hive bodies. Cutting a tightly fitted cross-notched corner is not beginning carpentry, in my opinion.
I like exterior 1-5/8" screws instead of nails, for hive bodies. And part of "building" is painting.
I have however been building screened bottom boards, covers, and ekes, which are more economical to make than buy. I recommend a chop saw for precision cuts. I use a battery powered Ryobi nailer ($99) which is terrific for assembling wood frames.
Member - its going to depend on what corner joints you want on the boxes. The basic "butt joint" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_joint) just has one board (side) butted up against the next board (end). This is the easiest joint to make - and the least strongest, however it will work. Butt joints can be made on a simple table saw (be careful with this machine), as the sides and ends of the box are basic rectangles.
The frame rest can also be made on a table saw using a Dado blade (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dado_set). Simply set the height of the blade, & cut the end boards on the appropriate side. I use a Rip fence (long metal guide) to guide my wood past the blade. Most table saws come with this option.
Screw (or nail) the box together and your done.
Fancier joints (finger joints, dovetails, miter joints etc) are stronger, generally longer lasting, but much harder to make (or you'll need more expensive equipment).
Warnings: never get your fingers near a table saw blade - use small sticks to push your wood piece thru the blade. Always wear safety glasses (and many more that I forget currently).
(That last post took me 3 hrs to finish - got sidetracked. I see others responded before I got it finished.)
Floridagardener's advice is good imho. I don't build boxes from scratch. Mannlake sells them (unassembled economy grade) for $12 in the 5-pack - cheaper in larger bundles. I cant buy good wood for that price.
I use a batter operated drill to screw boxes together (had too many problems with nails).
I use a Brad Nailer Air gun (available at home depot) to assemble frames. It's fun and easy.
Quote from: CoolBees on January 17, 2020, 09:35:56 PM
Warnings: never get your fingers near a table saw blade - use small sticks to push your wood piece thru the blade. Always wear safety glasses (and many more that I forget currently).
Yes, and stand out of the 'line of fire'! ie directly behind the saw. Keep in mind that the hand holding the push stick is still in the line of fire. Hurts like heck. Think I broke a finger but at least I am still here to tell the tell.
BTW, I was about 10 or 11 years old watching my father building a bee hive when I learned to not stand directly behind a table saw. Was my uncle who stepped into the wrong place that time. At least he was far enough away to not get hurt.
I repeat what everyone is saying, that table saw blade is chiseling the wood away. Your fingers are a lot softer than even soft wood. You want to make the blade just high enough to cut through the wood, and it's still dangerous. I cut across my left thumb 10 years ago, and I still can't feel anything on the end.
I do love my table saw. I have did all my cutting with a chainsaw and circular saw and recipe saw till I was 50 years old. For building hives, the table saw is the bomb. Boxes can be done with out it if needed though but it will be slower. The cross cut (cut off) saw with a perfect square cut is super nice too.
The bees will not mind that much. Good boxes are for the bee keeper cause it makes working bees easier when things work like they should. Some of this does depend on what you have most of, money or time. Buying boards and working with scrap are both expensive in their own right. So in some situations, buying mass produced stuff is cheaper then doing it on your own. This is even true on things like growing tomatoes and making your own spaghetti sauce. You can get prego for a buck on sale.
However, If you are like me and retired and have much more time then money, You can do much better building your own if you don't count your time and have no schedule that forces you to go to the store and buy prime boards to use. Be careful cause scrounging is not free either if you have to drive around to do it. It probably depends on you living environment and what is already around and handy on deciding what makes sense for a person to do.
Good luck
gww
Member I build all of my stuff, frames included. However I do not or would not recommend that you try this without a mentor standing right there with you. As some have said, a person can learn alot from youtube videos but a video cannot intervene when you are about to make a disastrous unhealthy mistake. And not just any hobbyist mentor should you trust at that! I mean a man or woman who has been using the type of machinery for years, that you would be needing to accomplish your desires. There are so many dangers and variables involved. Woodworking is very very dangerous and one little mistake can ruin you for life. As William Bagwell said this stuff will kick wood up, back, down and sideways. Will snatch, pitch, PULL and kick backward. The different dangers are depending of what piece of equipment you are using at the time, as well as the way you are using it. I use a radial arm saw DANGEROUS, table saw DANGEROUS, router with a router table DANGEROUS, sliding miter saw DANGEROUS, band saw and yes again Dangerous. I have special jigs that I have come up with that work great for (assembly line work) but the ever present danger is still there and I try to keep on my toes at all times. Unless you are planning of having in the upteen amount of hives I would strongly recommend that you watch the sales at the supply houses. I hope this does not hurt you feelings. If I did not tell of these dangerous and you were to get hurt I would feel very bad for not have warned you. As Mister Honey Pump says, I hope that helps.
Blessings,
Phillip
If you are a hobbyist I would avoid a radial arm. Without all the safety devices on it to protect you it is the most dangerous. And you know you are going to remove all the stuff so you can see what you are doing.
Quote from: gww on January 17, 2020, 11:47:39 PM
You can get prego for a buck on sale.
You can also look prego by eating what is prepared and mass produced. LOL
Quote from: Acebird on January 18, 2020, 08:45:26 AM
If you are a hobbyist I would avoid a radial arm. Without all the safety devices on it to protect you it is the most dangerous. And you know you are going to remove all the stuff so you can see what you are doing.
I agree, the only purpose I have for mine is making those factory smooth recessed handles.
The risk is not so bad compared to the outcome that might be possible. Though out life people will make mistakes no matter how careful they are but the alternative is to lock yourself up in your room and never go out. I have always been proud of myself when I have did things on my own. I had a ladder collapse when I built my pole barn. I got lucky that I was not harmed and know it could have went the other way. Should I have built it? It sure is nice now that it is built and will last way past when I am dead. Don't be afraid. It is not rocket science. Use a little common sense and be proud of what you accomplish.
Cheers
gww
I agree with you GWW. I am not attempting to encourage or discourage Member, but I did attempt to make sure she goes into this with her eyes wide open to what can happen and that wood working does have its dangers. She said she has zero experience with wood working tools and no experienced mentor. This is dangerous with (zero) experience. . This attempted eye opener is strictly for her benefit of well being. She ask to talk to her like a child so I laid it out just as I would tell a teenager the dangers of driving before I would turn the keys over. LOL I still recommend that she buy her boxes unless she plans on buying many. The price of tools may out weigh the difference?
Ben Framed
QuoteThe price of tools may out weigh the difference?
I agree with this and most will not have need big enough to justify this one thing. I went through three cheap table saws and have three in my shed that I use two of fairly regular. I have not made the price of my first one based on value added accomplishments unless you put high value on pride.
I did get one of those saws for $25 bucks though and it might be my second best saw.
Like mentioned earlier, I was 50 years old before I got a table saw and I did tons of work before I turned 50 and not much work after. I do liken it to having a 4 wheel drive truck. I might only use the 4 wheel drive once a year when I could have just stayed home but I sure do like it.
Cheers
gww
Thank you so much for all the replies everyone! Lots of great advice here.
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 18, 2020, 01:41:16 AM
Member I build all of my stuff, frames included. However I do not or would not recommend that you try this without a mentor standing right there with you. As some have said, a person can learn alot from youtube videos but a video cannot intervene when you are about to make a disastrous unhealthy mistake. And not just any hobbyist mentor should you trust at that! I mean a man or woman who has been using the type of machinery for years, that you would be needing to accomplish your desires. There are so many dangers and variables involved. Woodworking is very very dangerous and one little mistake can ruin you for life. As William Bagwell said this stuff will kick wood up, back, down and sideways. Will snatch, pitch, PULL and kick backward. The different dangers are depending of what piece of equipment you are using at the time, as well as the way you are using it. I use a radial arm saw DANGEROUS, table saw DANGEROUS, router with a router table DANGEROUS, sliding miter saw DANGEROUS, band saw and yes again Dangerous. I have special jigs that I have come up with that work great for (assembly line work) but the ever present danger is still there and I try to keep on my toes at all times. Unless you are planning of having in the upteen amount of hives I would strongly recommend that you watch the sales at the supply houses. I hope this does not hurt you feelings. If I did not tell of these dangerous and you were to get hurt I would feel very bad for not have warned you. As Mister Honey Pump says, I hope that helps.
Blessings,
Phillip
A lot of you have warned me about the safety aspects of using these large tools. This is a valid warning, as I am completely inexperienced with using such equipment. My feelings are not hurt in the least, on the contrary, as Phillip said, I think it's smart for you not to encourage someone with no experience to just go out and start messing around with something like a table saw. The danger warnings are duly noted and very much appreciated.
Quote from: gww on January 18, 2020, 12:19:15 PM
The risk is not so bad compared to the outcome that might be possible. Though out life people will make mistakes no matter how careful they are but the alternative is to lock yourself up in your room and never go out. I have always been proud of myself when I have did things on my own. I had a ladder collapse when I built my pole barn. I got lucky that I was not harmed and know it could have went the other way. Should I have built it? It sure is nice now that it is built and will last way past when I am dead. Don't be afraid. It is not rocket science. Use a little common sense and be proud of what you accomplish.
Cheers
gww
Gww's point is valid too though. If this is something I feel I'd like to do and the only thing keeping me from it is potential danger, the danger shouldn't keep me from pursuing it. Care is certainly necessary, but sometimes a little risk is too, as long as one is not cavalier about it.
All that being said. . .
I see 2 problems. #1, It seems like the only easy way to make reliable straight cuts for someone inexperienced would be to use a table saw or chop saw. In other words, a large expensive piece of equipment that I do not own, and I imagine will not be cheap to purchase. Which brings me to problem #2, If the monetary savings of building my own equipment is not necessarily that big, as FloridaGardener and gww referenced, AND I'll have to spend money on the saw, this might not be the cost savings that I assumed it would be. That coupled with the fact that I actually have no idea how to even build anything, may make this not as good of an idea as I previously thought it was. Comments?
The15th.........
You know yourself and are probably on the right track. Just because you are on that track now does not mean that now that you have focused on this that you won't sorta pay attention from here on and learn more. If you later change your mind, that is fine also. Everything does not have to be done right now.
I think you will figure out what works best for you.
Cheers
gww
Member, If you want to go ahead with your box building, considering the equipment I would deem necessary to make it easy on yourself, there are three things I would recommend but not required. Now before I recommend these three, take into consideration their is more than one way to skim a cat lol. I use a sliding miter saw for a precise length of each board and a perfect straight cut. Both end and sideI board. I use a router table to cut out a perfect frame rest for the ends. I also use the router table for the joint cuts In order to join my boxes together. A table saw for o perfect ripping the boards down to their proper depths. For the recessed box handles, I use a radial arm saw. This set up is for my convenience and (assembly line work). I like to knock this out ASAP as there are other things that I enjoy more than wood working. All this can be accomplished on a table saw if you know what you are doing. Now, some will probably scorn me for the name of the equipment I am about to discuss. You can purchase all three; Table Saw $114.00 with coupon. 10 inch sliding miter $99.00 with coupon, and a router table (with router) about $99.00 with coupon, all less than 400 dollars at harbor freight. I have made many boxes with this same set up and thousands of frames with these same tools. The ONLY problem that I have encountered is I finally burned the brushes up in the router, which I changed out in less than 5 minutes. Yes these are cheap tools but have well proven their usefulness in my case. Wishing you the best in your bees 🐝
Phillip
One other thing to consider if trying to make an assembly line type production is how much space to work in is involved and how much dirt it makes.
I do use table saw and radial arm saw for all. I will say that I believe I could build with just a circular saw but it would be time consuming. Throw in a router for frame rest would make it easier yet (Though I admit I have never used one).
It can be done with very minimum of tools but the nice tools add speed to the process. I built mine from tree to hive with a home made band saw mill. I built everything including frames and used good stuff but did not build assembly line style and it took me three winters to build about 20 hives. Not fast huh?
I one time built a wind turbine with a circular saw with a metal cutting blade and a cheap harbor freight wire feed welder.
Building one off with minimal tools can be done but must be considered hobby and not in a commercial sense due to the time involved.
So, it depends on your needs. My need was something that was sorta productive that I half enjoyed and would cost no money to do with my time. That way, and under those circumstances, I could do it forever or at least as long as my interest held.
Now I have honey every year and if I ever make a mistake and kill all my bees, I will only lose time and not money. Were I needing and relying on income from the things I do, my way would be very wrong. Since I am more concerned with not working at a job but not completely wasting my time and wanting the therapeutic value. What I do works great for me.
So assessing your needs and what you want to accomplish and what you have to work with towards that, is the key to happiness for each individual person and situation.
My wood working shed is 25x30 and is walking room only and has sawdust on the floor all the time cause there is not room to move stuff sideways and sweep under it. Every two years or so I can drag everything out and clean for two days to catch up. When I used the circular saw, I could work on the back patio and let the wind blow it away. I love what I have now even being crowded but only mention this as one more thing to think about as far as having things and being able to use and store them.
Cheers
gww
I use tite- bond 2 or 3 on all boxes
You are right about the sawdust gww. The way I try and get around this is I also have a folding portable miter stand for my saw that I roll out to a convenient level concrete slab, I also have another like stand that I modified for height that I have placed my table saw on. If I pick and choose, I can do my work outside and simply sweep up all sawdust afterward then blow off all equipment with a blower before taking all back into the shop. The radial arm saw is on a stand with casters also. The router table is light and portable making it easy to roll all down the sidewalk to the designated patio area.
Mikey I also use tite bond on all joints, I even use a lite coat of it on the cut ends before I paint making the perfect water 💧 proof (calk) so to speak.
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on January 18, 2020, 01:37:16 PM
Member, If you want to go ahead with your box building, considering the equipment I would deem necessary to make it easy on yourself, there are three things I would recommend but not required. Now before I recommend these three, take into consideration their is more than one way to skim a cat lol. I use a sliding miter saw for a precise length of each board and a perfect straight cut. Both end and sideI board. I use a router table to cut out a perfect frame rest for the ends. I also use the router table for the joint cuts In order to join my boxes together. A table saw for o perfect ripping the boards down to their proper depths. For the recessed box handles, I use a radial arm saw. This set up is for my convenience and (assembly line work). I like to knock this out ASAP as there are other things that I enjoy more than wood working. All this can be accomplished on a table saw if you know what you are doing. Now, some will probably scorn me for the name of the equipment I am about to discuss. You can purchase all three; Table Saw $114.00 with coupon. 10 inch sliding miter $99.00 with coupon, and a router table (with router) about $99.00 with coupon, all less than 400 dollars at harbor freight. I have made many boxes with this same set up and thousands of frames with these same tools. The ONLY problem that I have encountered is I finally burned the brushes up in the router, which I changed out in less than 5 minutes. Yes these are cheap tools but have well proven their usefulness in my case. Wishing you the best in your bees 🐝
Phillip
That is quite a reasonable price point. (I really need to check out Harbor Freight, so many people have told me about good deals they got there.) If this is indeed something I'm going to get into, a deal like that could make it affordable.
Quote from: gww on January 18, 2020, 02:49:52 PM
One other thing to consider if trying to make an assembly line type production is how much space to work in is involved and how much dirt it makes.
I do use table saw and radial arm saw for all. I will say that I believe I could build with just a circular saw but it would be time consuming. Throw in a router for frame rest would make it easier yet (Though I admit I have never used one).
It can be done with very minimum of tools but the nice tools add speed to the process. I built mine from tree to hive with a home made band saw mill. I built everything including frames and used good stuff but did not build assembly line style and it took me three winters to build about 20 hives. Not fast huh?
I one time built a wind turbine with a circular saw with a metal cutting blade and a cheap harbor freight wire feed welder.
Building one off with minimal tools can be done but must be considered hobby and not in a commercial sense due to the time involved.
So, it depends on your needs. My need was something that was sorta productive that I half enjoyed and would cost no money to do with my time. That way, and under those circumstances, I could do it forever or at least as long as my interest held.
Now I have honey every year and if I ever make a mistake and kill all my bees, I will only lose time and not money. Were I needing and relying on income from the things I do, my way would be very wrong. Since I am more concerned with not working at a job but not completely wasting my time and wanting the therapeutic value. What I do works great for me.
So assessing your needs and what you want to accomplish and what you have to work with towards that, is the key to happiness for each individual person and situation.
My wood working shed is 25x30 and is walking room only and has sawdust on the floor all the time cause there is not room to move stuff sideways and sweep under it. Every two years or so I can drag everything out and clean for two days to catch up. When I used the circular saw, I could work on the back patio and let the wind blow it away. I love what I have now even being crowded but only mention this as one more thing to think about as far as having things and being able to use and store them.
Cheers
gww
A lot of good points again, gww. My ultimate goal as a beekeeper is to have about 10 hives, so my equipment needs aren't extreme in the long run, and I don't currently have anywhere to keep or use a large piece of equipment like a table saw or a radial saw. If the other members of my family could get use out of it too, then maybe. . . but this whole thing is seeming like it's just out of my league, at least for now. My big motivator in trying to build my own stuff was cost savings, not a desire to woodwork for fun. Don't get me wrong, I think it sounds like a great thing to be able to do, rewarding and interesting and all that, but it's just not really my cup of tea. The challenges it would present me, the time it would take, and the amount of wood I would probably ruin trying and failing until I got the hang of it, that would be worth it if I could save a lot of money in the long run. But if that's not the case, it really might not be worth it to me.
To save money making your own the price you pay for your timber is probably the biggest factor.
We buy packs of about 1000 lineal feet to get the best price, the flat pack makers buy better than us and so flat pack are quite often the best way to go.
If you are not a timber person then the cost of the equipment solely for bee boxes, plus retail cost of timber should be considered.
At $12 per pack is good value. That is about $18 Australian, friend had to buy a pellet of flat packs to get to $19.
Honestly, I built my first hives using hand tools. Saws cut much better when you know how to file them, chisels cut much better when you know how to sharpen them. I have a step-father that went on about how I was wasting time using those poor tools, and he didn't possess the skill to cut a straight line using all his specialized equipment.
I watched him for half an hour trying to cut a piece of 2 x 4 the long way for some reason with a radial arm saw, asked him what he was trying to do, and he explained he was trying to take a little off to make room for a wire. I took the wood, pulled out a chisel, and he looked amazed as I shaved the edge down so the wire would fit.
Member, if you look around, you will find old saws, planes, chisels, and squares. You will need those just to start with anyway. Look up sharpening systems; tools are safer and work much better when they're actually sharp enough to take hairs off your arm. To start with, you could use a plate of glass and several grades of wet/dry paper.
Don't think these things are "safe" just because they're not powered. I've cut myself more times than I can count, last year my cross-cut back saw jumped out of the groove and went right across my thumbnail. It took months for the nail to grow back to shape.
Paul Sellers is a good guy for the beginning woodworker, he even shows how to make your own "poor man" tools.
https://paulsellers.com/
He even has a YouTube channel! (For some reason I can't post a direct link, so this will have to do.)
https://www (dot) youtube (dot) com/user/PaulSellersWoodwork
For what it is worth you could build boxes with a circular saw, a good square, and a couple of clamps. Although I would not recommend doing it that way. I use a table saw for everything in making my boxes. I don't cut recesses for handholds. I cut cleats and screw them on the front and back.
I have been using power saws to cut wood since I was about 8 years old. I don't recommend starting woodworking as a hobby just to save a few dollars on boxes. It is hard even for me to justify the little savings making my own equipment if I did not enjoy woodworking. One of the things that got me interested in beekeeping was the building and design of the hive itself.
I would not want to discourage you but be safe and do only what you are comfortable with regarding the power tools.
I have a table saw I got used [on craigslist or FB marketplace] for 75, and new blades for 30. It came with a wobble blade but I'd like a dado. It doesn't have any advanced safety features and it's dangerous! I'm terrified of the blade and always used push sticks and stand to the side. They tell me, though, that it's just a matter of time, and I kindof believe them. It beats the snot out of the cordless circular saw I was using though. and is probably less dangerous :)
If I was going to build my own frames and boxes and everything, I'd be turrible tempted to build top bar hives. Not that the top bars don't have to be precise, but they only need one perfect piece, not four. And the whole hive is only one box, so it only has to be "just right" once, not a bunch of times.
Quote from: yes2matt on January 19, 2020, 08:08:00 AM
I'm terrified of the blade and always used push sticks and stand to the side.
Excellent idea to buy a new blade but I suggest you do not stand to the side. Standing aside will more likely cause an accident especially if the stick contacts the blade.
First and foremost before using any saw the fence must be aligned to the groove in the table and then the blade to the fence. Pinching occurs if they are not. A sharp blade usually prevents pinching on the blade but a twisted grain of the wood you are cutting may make it unpreventable. Avoid wood that is wet and squirrel grained.
Blade height: 1/8 to 1/4 above the thickness of the wood, no higher.
For narrow rips I use a block in the left hand and feed with the right hand. The block will have a notch that is just a tad thicker then the wood I am cutting so the piece can not pick up off the table. Then use a pusher stick to pass by the blade. The stick will have a 90 degree notch that is 45 degrees to the stick so you can push and hold down at the same time. It doesn't hurt to rub paraffin on the holding block so the work piece slides through nice. Block is about the size of a 2x4 so you can get a good grip.
Power tools are dangerous.
Please, think twice about doing this and if you do be very careful.
Please, if you do this wear eye protection. Don't wear loose clothes that can get caught and pull you right in to blades and bits.
Remember, if you do this, measure twice, cut once. Saves a lot of lumber and aggravation.
But again, think twice about making your own.
I've been talking to my family about it, and I think the answer is no. There's just too much stacked against it. As I said before, my real motivation here was to save money, and if the savings isn't there, the motivation isn't either. I like the idea of building my own equipment, but I don't think it's something I'm realistically able to do, at least at this point. Thank you all so much for helping me figure this out. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I could not be anywhere near as successful as I've been in beekeeping if it wasn't for all the help you guys have given me. Thanks both for your advice and for looking out for my safety, I really appreciate it.
15th Member:
Even though you have decided not to build your own hives, take a look at this website just for fun, and you will see what it entails. https://www.michiganbees.org/beekeeping/in-the-beekeepers-workshop/
You might consider buying pre-cut boxes from one of the on-line suppliers, (or local). Then you can get some experience on putting them together without the expense or danger of the big saws.
Or you could make your sister a cake and show her this website!!! :wink:
Quote from: jimineycricket on January 19, 2020, 09:08:43 PM
15th Member:
Even though you have decided not to build your own hives, take a look at this website just for fun, and you will see what it entails. https://www.michiganbees.org/beekeeping/in-the-beekeepers-workshop/
You might consider buying pre-cut boxes from one of the on-line suppliers, (or local). Then you can get some experience on putting them together without the expense or danger of the big saws.
Or you could make your sister a cake and show her this website!!! :wink:
Haha, I think it would probably take more than a cake. :cheesy: Also, I don't know how to bake either. :wink: :cheesy: Although I'm sure baking would be easier to learn than wookworking, and certainly less dangerous. I do already purchase my equipment unassembled when I can. One of my favorite jobs actually is frame assembly. I have few enough hives that I just do them by hand, I don't have a jig or anything. I don't get to do much with my hands often, and I find it enjoyable. I like putting boxes together too, but they are a pain to square.
Member, if you just need a few hives, and you have the time, you could just use hand tools. Making things from wood is no more complicated or difficult than learning the computer, or gardening. All it takes is knowledge, concept, and practice.
I can't think of an easier job in building hives than making the hive bodies. The joinery doesn't have to be box joints. Cutting a rabbet is a basic skill. I don't trust butt joints, because the boxes sit out in the weather, but glues we use today are often stronger than joinery.
Here "The English Woodworker" shows us how to cut rabbets (In Britain, Rebate) using nothing but a mallet and chisel.
https://youtu.be/PCX6RZGmiRE
Quote from: CapnChkn on January 20, 2020, 04:21:11 AM
I don't trust butt joints, because the boxes sit out in the weather,
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zrNbgwzfVhT1d9jG9
These are butt joints... no exposed grain to the weather. The end grain is even pre painted.
Acebird, I find the wood moving in the humidity, even when I use plywood, and it seems to break the bond over time. It could be because I use paraffin for weatherproofing, but I have been working to set long grain to long grain.
I would never have thought of the solution you show. That certainly takes care of wicking! Now for me, that's a lot *more* of little parts to swell, shrink, and wiggle loose! :grin:
Quote from: The15thMember on January 19, 2020, 06:29:33 PM
I've been talking to my family about it, and I think the answer is no. There's just too much stacked against it. As I said before, my real motivation here was to save money, and if the savings isn't there, the motivation isn't either. I like the idea of building my own equipment, but I don't think it's something I'm realistically able to do, at least at this point. Thank you all so much for helping me figure this out. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I could not be anywhere near as successful as I've been in beekeeping if it wasn't for all the help you guys have given me. Thanks both for your advice and for looking out for my safety, I really appreciate it.
Oh.
Maybe you said it before that your real motivation was to save money, and I missed it.
But.
If you get in any catalog, and you piece out the parts of a hive, and you take into account how long it takes to make them or what sort of equipment you would need, etc. The middle ground I have come to, is that I buy boxes (because I can't get lumber for that price and it would take me a whole day to cut those joints) and I buy frames (because no way on the green earth I can make that for a dollar). But I can make both screen and solid bottom boards pretty easy, for way less money than they sell, inner covers are super easy, outer covers are super easy. I can make nuc boxes out of plywood which is real cost/time effective (and can be done with a circular saw with some practice, or even a crosscut saw with some elbow grease and practice).
Which is to say don't give up entirely but maybe start on big-cost-for-little-effort pieces (outer covers and bottom boards) and work up as you gain skill and interest. Or work up as you add this or that tool.
Quote from: CapnChkn on January 20, 2020, 11:34:22 AM
Acebird, I find the wood moving in the humidity, even when I use plywood, and it seems to break the bond over time.
Plywood doesn't do well with moisture because the layers of the grain are at 90 deg. Plywood is meant to be used in a moisture stable environment.
Everything is painted on my butt joints so caulking was used instead of glue. The strength of the joint is attained by the long screws. Although the butt joint is no where near the strength of a finger joint these boxes held up well. Because of the oversize lumber and corner blocks I had to make an oversize tele cover. That being said I tried to reserved these boxes for the bottom of the hive for overwintering in a cold region. Not necessary anymore down hear in FL.
Bees are so forgiving that anybody can be a carpenter for beekeeping. Just use simple construction that doesn't require the fancy tools.
What lowers the cost of making your own equipment is scrap lumber not the act of making your own. That is what I did. And what most people can do.
Quote from: CapnChkn on January 20, 2020, 04:21:11 AM
Member, if you just need a few hives, and you have the time, you could just use hand tools. Making things from wood is no more complicated or difficult than learning the computer, or gardening. All it takes is knowledge, concept, and practice.
I can't think of an easier job in building hives than making the hive bodies. The joinery doesn't have to be box joints. Cutting a rabbet is a basic skill. I don't trust butt joints, because the boxes sit out in the weather, but glues we use today are often stronger than joinery.
Here "The English Woodworker" shows us how to cut rabbets (In Britain, Rebate) using nothing but a mallet and chisel.
Amazing video. It's good to remember how people built things way before power tools, and that they certainly aren't required for building. Seems like something that would take a lot of practice to learn, but it's definitely interesting, and would be a very good skill to possess. Whether it's worth the time to me remains to be seen.
Quote from: yes2matt on January 20, 2020, 10:07:42 PM
If you get in any catalog, and you piece out the parts of a hive, and you take into account how long it takes to make them or what sort of equipment you would need, etc. The middle ground I have come to, is that I buy boxes (because I can't get lumber for that price and it would take me a whole day to cut those joints) and I buy frames (because no way on the green earth I can make that for a dollar). But I can make both screen and solid bottom boards pretty easy, for way less money than they sell, inner covers are super easy, outer covers are super easy. I can make nuc boxes out of plywood which is real cost/time effective (and can be done with a circular saw with some practice, or even a crosscut saw with some elbow grease and practice).
Which is to say don't give up entirely but maybe start on big-cost-for-little-effort pieces (outer covers and bottom boards) and work up as you gain skill and interest. Or work up as you add this or that tool.
Good advice, and something like a migratory cover probably doesn't take much to make, especially since it doesn't even have to be square or anything.
Quote from: Acebird on January 21, 2020, 09:09:51 AM
What lowers the cost of making your own equipment is scrap lumber not the act of making your own.
This, I guess, is what it really boils down to. Can I find lumber cheap enough to warrant the time and trouble involved? And where would I find such lumber?
thefifteen......
Anything over 22 inches is good for building most hive items. If you ever know someone building a house, a lot of small stuff is thrown out. You can get triangles of particle board big enough for tops and bottoms. A quarter inch plywood is not that expensive even bought new for things like inter covers. Some of what you use can depend on how particular you are on how things look. There are places that have stuff arrive in crates that are just trash to the place that gets it. As I mentioned earlier though, if you have to drive around looking, that is not free. However, if you are always looking when you are going places anyway, you may see things you never noticed before and that where always there.
Good luck
gww
Ps having a little imagination also helps. If you have boards that are too narrow but used a corner like ace posted, you can put two boards on edge to get width. If you get pallet that the boards are a little thinner, the bees will probably survive something that is not a full 3/4 inch thick or that is 1.5 inch thick. You just have to do the math to get inside dimensions right and your telescoping tops big enough to go over it, the bees won't care.
Interchangeability is important. You want all tops to fit all hives and such.
Quote from: The15thMember on January 21, 2020, 02:21:19 PM
... Can I find lumber cheap enough to warrant the time and trouble involved? And where would I find such lumber?
Gww covered it very well ... keep your eyes open.
Bees are very small creatures. Minor variations in cuts and dimensions to us are major to them.
The cost of lumber and materials today make the mass production of wood products very cheap. Plastics are cheaper than that even!
My dad was an architect and I've built a house. I build all kinds of things with my table saw, miter saw, router, and other tools. I build hive parts. But for the expensive nucs I bought to expand this spring I have two Paradise Honey Bee Boxes from Blue Sky.
Dr. Thomas Seely and others recommend single hive body management. That is for the brood chamber -- just one deep hive body. Then if you put a super on top and harvest it frame at a time, that is not much equipment. Your labor is geared toward harvest instead of boxes.
father michael
You have to realize what seeley is trying to accomplish with that suggestion. Like all things bee keeping, what you want to accomplish has a lot to do with how you keep bees. Some keep bees in fancy warre boxes in their garden more for decoration. Some northern commercials use one brood box and winter in doors and take all honey and then feed heavy. Some like me use all ten frame mediums and multiple boxes and try and not feed except in emergency's. Seeley has much more involved in what he is trying to accomplish then just a box. He wants distance between hives and no swarm prevention and lots more. His bee keeping does not fit many beekeeper reality as a way to try and keep bees. He studies bees and looks at it from the bees perspective while most bee keepers keep bees for the bee keeper.
Cheers
gww
Acebird, building hives 10 years now. A lot of the boxes here are CDX (Today, RTD), some solid wood. I get a lot of cull, and force the wood into shape. Still some of the boxes have big gaps in the corners, and the little bees fill it up.
Member, go to a house building site, and ask them if you can get some off-cuts. I use the SPF or SYP (It's generic wood. They mean, Spruce Pine Fir, and Southern Yellow Pine.) end cuts to make my side bars for the frames. Anything that will handle the weather, RTD, or Solid wood, longer than 20 inches. You can pull apart Pallets, they're good to practice on, being free, as long as you can find the wood stamped with HT and not treated wood. The HT means Heat Treated.
Pressure treated is a no-no. They used to use Copper Arsenate, which is toxic in any form, but now use borate "stuff," I think, and are more environmental friendly. If you go to the Big Orange or other Big Box stores, you can find wood that's twisted or damaged, off cuts in the section where they cut wood for you, and "Stickers," which hold the wood apart from other bundles that they stack it on. Look for the "Cull" pile in your local Building supply. That wood can be as much as 70% off. Ask if it's pressure treated.
You would want 3/4 inch thick lumber, the problem is the inside dimensions. NO SPACE LARGER THAN 3/8 INCH! Making boxes from thicker lumber is alright, but will have to be longer to accommodate the increase in outside dimensions. And makes things heavier. You would want to stick to standard sizes for trading frames and so on, and the boxes will not fit the same, so I would put the thicker wood on top so the water wouldn't run in the cracks.
Quote from: CapnChkn on January 21, 2020, 11:21:44 PM
I would put the thicker wood on top so the water wouldn't run in the cracks.
The bees fill the cracks between boxes and make it water proof. When the sun comes out it dries the top ledge real quick. If you put the boxes in the top they get filled with honey and you always have to lift those boxes. IMO hot or cold it is better to have the thicker boxes on the bottom.
Great advice everyone, thank you, thank you! I'll start keeping my eyes peeled when I go places to see what my options would be for getting wood. I'm seriously considering yes2matt's advice about making tops and bottoms. Particularly tops seem like a good place to start because the exact size and spacing with a top doesn't matter at all really. As long as it covers the top of the hive and doesn't fall off or leak or something I could still use it, so it seems kinda hard to screw that up. Bottoms seem a little harder, but would be good too, since I liked Brushy Mountain's bottoms the most and I obviously can't get them any more.
Acebird, I know! My thinking is the water will sit on the exposed area. They won't always be propolized up. It's a minor point. Having the boxes built to a standard, whether it's 3/4 inch, or 1 1/2 inch thickness, would be important.
To interact with the rest of the beekeeping community, the frames and other "movable" equipment would need to fit in the community standard. To speak, you need a frame of open brood, and negotiate with another beekeeper. When you trade frames, you want those frames to fit inside the hive, and all hives.
So, to carry this to a conclusion, it doesn't really matter what the design of the hive is, as long as the inside dimensions will accommodate the community standard. All in all, the thickness of the wood is 3/4 inch for convenience, but trading the supers becomes a problem when those boxes aren't the same size. Whether it's boxes in the same yard, or trading with another.
My example is trading the frames inside my own hives. Having deeps and mediums became a hassle. I've been slowly getting rid of all the deep equipment, and now have nothing but mediums. The deep nucs make pretty good swarm traps with medium frames inside.
There is alot of mismatched equipment out there which often makes it a challenge to integrate into your apiary as your operation grows. Poor fitment and bee space violations are rampant.
The issue is never whether one can build their own equipment. It is whether one should.
My advice would be keep it simple. Build some specific stuff, buy some specific stuff. This way ensures function and compatibility of equipment for your lifetime in the bees.
To state it simply and specifically:
Always BUILD: lids, bases, escape boards, inner covers, traps, stands, top feeders, nucleus boxes, any other misc or specialty equipment
Always BUY: box kits unsassembled, frames assembled, queen excluders (steel only). Stay committed to the same brand/manufacturer for boxes and frames.
This is my view and my view only. I built lots with rough cut lumber before I got my planer. My biggest mistake was due to wood thickness, my tops would not fit a few boxes. I adjusted the tops to be a tiny bit bigger and now no problem. I do not worry about the edge of the box being wider on some then others, As long as the inside is good, then the boxes will fit just fine. As far as rain going into the box due to hitting a lip, I tilt the hive a tiny bit forward and have never noticed a problem. I don;t mind a tiny bit of water on the walls. I would not like water dripping down the center of the hive though with my stuff, I have had lids hold water on top and could see it making its way through a hive or two. The other problem is that when the boxes are not exact, it can be a little harder to break the propolus that holds them together.
Maybe the boxes don't look quite as good but the bees don't mind. The inside is important.
Cheers
gww
All what is said about materials is right, bees don't care so long as they can make it comfortable for themselves, but if you are to move from a few hives then deciding on a standard design and material becomes important.
You don't know sometimes where the fascination with bees will lead you. I bought a single hive 13-14 years ago to have in the backyard, this has grown into a full time business.
The early attempts at box manufacture with various materials were a frustration. Also my first hive was a 10 frame, which I soon learnt that the full depth supers are very heavy when full of honey, so we went to 8's.
Even at a small scale, standardised boxes allow for flexibility to swap things around when necessary.
Standardisation needs to be within industry dimensions so as when a good deal on some flat packs or boxes comes up you can take advantage of it and they mesh into your apiary.
Quote from: gww on January 21, 2020, 08:10:50 PM
father michael
You have to realize what seeley is trying to accomplish with that suggestion. Like all things bee keeping, what you want to accomplish has a lot to do with how you keep bees. Some keep bees in fancy warre boxes in their garden more for decoration. Some northern commercials use one brood box and winter in doors and take all honey and then feed heavy. Some like me use all ten frame mediums and multiple boxes and try and not feed except in emergency's. Seeley has much more involved in what he is trying to accomplish then just a box. He wants distance between hives and no swarm prevention and lots more. His bee keeping does not fit many beekeeper reality as a way to try and keep bees. He studies bees and looks at it from the bees perspective while most bee keepers keep bees for the bee keeper.
Cheers
gww
Seely has convinced me that it is cruel to keep bees in thin walled hives. It is too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter.
If it is cruel to the bees then it must not be very productive.
In another topic we can see that I insulated my one hive with wool blankets and a watershed.
They are doing so well that I don't know what to think.
father micheal
Lots of bees do well. They do so well that millions of packages are sold and there is always bees for sale every year. Lots of bees are killed by error by us and by disease but there always seem to be plenty of replacement bees. Lots of different ways to skin a cat and have success. Nothing wrong with having a favorite as long as success is still recognized in others that also have success. It is the same with building hives. Some use cedar, some pine, I have used oak, etc. I use all medium for the interchangeability of everything fitting everything. Doesn't make it best but the bees do quite well in it. Seeley studies bees and their habits and response against disease. He has put out a bee keeping theory for people to try based on those studies. Those theories would never work for a migratory bee keeper or some one with space constraints. Lots of people with these restraints make a living with bees and always have extra to sell to others. I see your point for those who may have a goal related to that point. I wish I could find it, but I did read at least one study that said bees in thick hives had more nosema.
So thick hives might do better (location may play also) but bees do well even far north in thin hives also. The bees heat the cluster not the hive.
Abby warre in his book made a good case for thinner walls in france due to the bees being more responsive to outside temps and sunlight.
My advice is always to look at what every one says and does and then find things from that to try for yourself and when you start having success that makes you happy, do that.
I am happy that you hives are doing well.
Cheers
gww
Ps seeleys way is for the bees to do good but even he admits that due to this, the bee keeper may have to accept less per hive for himself among other issues. Again, he is looking at a different goal then many bee keepers look for. If you only use one thing he says and not the whole package he is promoting than you really would not be following what seeley suggest.
15th, I have also built my own equipment, enjoy doing it but lumber can be expensive. Plus time is money. Miller bee makes one of the nicest hives I have bought. https://millerbeesupply.com/ And well priced. Still have to assemble. I will still build my nucs at a fraction, but when I expand next year will be calling miller .
Quote from: gww on January 22, 2020, 07:15:26 PM
father micheal
Lots of bees do well. They do so well that millions of packages are sold and there is always bees for sale every year. Lots of bees are killed by error by us and by disease but there always seem to be plenty of replacement bees. Lots of different ways to skin a cat and have success. Nothing wrong with having a favorite as long as success is still recognized in others that also have success. It is the same with building hives. Some use cedar, some pine, I have used oak, etc. I use all medium for the interchangeability of everything fitting everything. Doesn't make it best but the bees do quite well in it. Seeley studies bees and their habits and response against disease. He has put out a bee keeping theory for people to try based on those studies. Those theories would never work for a migratory bee keeper or some one with space constraints. Lots of people with these restraints make a living with bees and always have extra to sell to others. I see your point for those who may have a goal related to that point. I wish I could find it, but I did read at least one study that said bees in thick hives had more nosema.
So thick hives might do better (location may play also) but bees do well even far north in thin hives also. The bees heat the cluster not the hive.
Abby warre in his book made a good case for thinner walls in france due to the bees being more responsive to outside temps and sunlight.
My advice is always to look at what every one says and does and then find things from that to try for yourself and when you start having success that makes you happy, do that.
I am happy that you hives are doing well.
Cheers
gww
Ps seeleys way is for the bees to do good but even he admits that due to this, the bee keeper may have to accept less per hive for himself among other issues. Again, he is looking at a different goal then many bee keepers look for. If you only use one thing he says and not the whole package he is promoting than you really would not be following what seeley suggest.
Thank you, gww. I'll take your comments to heart.
I've never had hard foam insulated hives so will be interested in how they work.
My one hive in a 1" cedar body is doing well. But I paid more for it than the Paradise. It was actually too expensive but I wanted how it looked in the back yard! LOL
Father micheal
I saw the video you posted and I agree, your hive looks good in your back yard. Best of luck.
Cheers
gww
Quote from: CapnChkn on January 22, 2020, 03:31:40 PM
it doesn't really matter what the design of the hive is, as long as the inside dimensions will accommodate the community standard.
Yes, that is what I did. I also just use medium size equipment.
if you are determined to buy some wookworking ,tools , check out garage sales and craigs list or other for sale sites. i was able to buy a table saw and a mitre saw for $ 35 each at a garage sale . i like to work on old tools. :cool:
Quote from: gww on January 22, 2020, 09:09:48 PM
Father micheal
I saw the video you posted and I agree, your hive looks good in your back yard. Best of luck.
Cheers
gww
Thanks. The top I built for it needs reworking -- it turned out not very attractive. Been sketching some alternatives and have come up with something much prettier, which will be better insulated, too.
Mary wants another hive in the back yard so am building one now. She loves to decorate so am giving her a clean slate to work on, paint, stain, or whatever.
I just built this Nuc box today. I was wanting to have a nuc box for...
1. Carrying my supplies to the hive. I am tired of juggling empty frames, smoker, etc...
2. having a stool to sit on
3. taking honey frames when the time comes
4. Using it as a temporary hive for any unexpected swarm.
All I need is to add a migratory top with a hinge, and maybe a pouch or two for rubberbands, lemon oil, and such.
I cant help feeling (when I taking my stuff to the hive) like a tourist going to the beach with suntan lotion on my nose and a folding chair. I'm such a newbee.
Quote from: Bob Wilson on January 24, 2020, 11:28:42 PM
I cant help feeling (when I taking my stuff to the hive) like a tourist going to the beach with suntan lotion on my nose and a folding chair. I'm such a newbee.
Enjoy