Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

Wondering how small a small hive can be.

I've seen calculations about how many eggs a queen can lay.  They indicate that a 10 frame deep brood chamber is way more than enough to the point of being a waste of space.  When the bees store winter honey in the outside frames they have to choose a direction and can starve with stores on the side they did not choose.

Have a theory that with fewer frames in nucs going vertical the queen would still have enough space for brood below and also they can move up and not sideways to the winter honey.

Paradise makes a 6 frame insulated nuc.

I had a hive overwinter in a single 8 frame medium with sugar added on top this winter.  I was surprised it made it.  It is now working on the fourth box.  I also have been overwintering some hives in 5 frame nucs.  This year one was 3 medium nuc boxes and the other was 4 boxes tall.  Both were packed full when I inspected them this week.  They both got transferred to 10 frame equipment.

Quote from: cao on April 09, 2020, 12:50:39 AM
I had a hive overwinter in a single 8 frame medium with sugar added on top this winter.  I was surprised it made it.  It is now working on the fourth box.  I also have been overwintering some hives in 5 frame nucs.  This year one was 3 medium nuc boxes and the other was 4 boxes tall.  Both were packed full when I inspected them this week.  They both got transferred to 10 frame equipment.

Cao do you feed sugar on top of you 5 frame nucs also?

Phillip

These I did.  It was probably about 2 lbs of sugar mountain camp style on each hive.  These probably didn't need it but I was playing it safe.

Quote from: cao on April 09, 2020, 12:58:07 AM
These I did.  It was probably about 2 lbs of sugar mountain camp style on each hive.  These probably didn't need it but I was playing it safe.

Thanks Cao. You are quite a bit North of me. Good deal.

Phillip

I was watching a video of a fellow over in Georgia last season that stated he might try overwintering a few 2 frame boxes. I have not heard back about how this worked out. I think I will ask him if he did try this and whether or not he was successful.

Phillip Hall

Bee keeping is 100% local.  Details matter.

Doesn't Michael Palmer routinely overwinter bees in stacked NUCs? He is in northern VT.

Thanks for the replies!

Fantastic results, cao!

Father, your question is difficult to answer as is.  You would need to please reframe it around certain time period(s) of interest and your objectives.  A colony may grow to be 12 to 15 times larger mid Summer than it is through fall and winter.
So the answer, as asked, can only bee typical beekeeping answer. ..
- IT DEPENDS - 

Warren Buffet made billions of dollars buying and selling stock. What are the odds that the average person can do the same?

A queen can keep approx. 6 deep frames full of brood, both sides, 100% filled, in a peak laying period. In a 10 frame box, that only leaves 4 frames of food to feed over 12,000 larva.
If the workers use more than 4 frames for food, the hive will swarm, since the queen will have no place to lay.

As for winter, why would anyone try to see just how weak they can make a hive enter into spring? The stronger the hive in fall and winter, the faster it will build up in the spring for reproduction or honey production.

Anything less that a 10 frame deep along our southern border states, a deep and a medium in our middle states, "north to south", or two deeps in our northern states is just foolish, in my opinion. The size boxes used to get that capacity can be more boxes with fewer frames, but the capacity is still needed.

HP posted while I was typing, so maybe this will explain the different scenarios.

In general I agree with what iddee said about wintering sizes.  In my case sometimes the bees don't cooperate or the beekeeper gets sidetracked.  But it does amaze me that more often that not these small hives that make it through the winter buildup much faster than the typical size hive that overwintered.

Sometimes desperation does that, but most times it doesn't.

Of course, I would not intentionally send a colony into winter weak and light.  Plus, I'm thinking that an insulated hive has a significant advantage over thin walled wooden ones.

Two deep 6 frame insulated bodies per hive would yield 12 frames going into winter but in a more natural vertical configuration so that the cluster can move up to their stores.  That is smaller than my 8 frame deep and medium that did so well this time.

Here in north Arkansas a three frame nuc will die before mid February, a five frame nuc will last until mid to late February, a ten frame (5 over 5) will survive until mid to late March, a 15 frame (5/5/5) will go until late March or early April.  This is if they are packed with stores the last half of October, and receive no emergency feeding.  The smaller boxes stacked have very good survival overwintering, but I would not recommend less than 10 frames if you want 90% plus survival. 

A single deep packed with stores in October will overwinter, but it will need to be fed in mid March.  A deep with a medium packed with stores will last until April and often needs no feeding if the flow begins on time.  Our spring weather is often wet and cold and can create problems feeding.  The more food fed the colony in October equals less problems in March and April.

Beekeepers hear the term "single deep broodnest," and they think of a colony with only 1 deep hive body, period.  They fail to consider the space needed for adult bees to live and for food storage.  In my area of Arkansas a single deep broodnest colony will need four medium supers above the queen excluder for adult bee living space and nectar storage by mid April.

>As for winter, why would anyone try to see just how weak they can make a hive enter into spring? The stronger the hive in fall and winter, the faster it will build up in the spring for reproduction or honey production.

I did not mention who the fellow was earlie, but it is David at Barnyard Bees, he sells queens. In his business numbers matter. I do not think he is very interested in honey production. I sent a question to him about this last night. I have not heard back from him yet but he always has answered and helped me in the past. I think he will answer when he gets around to it.  I mentioned the 2 framer as how small can a hive be just for interest sake.

Phillip Hall

Father Michael, I don?t know if your question pertains to starting a colony.  Appears to be winter arrangement.  FYI, the following.

Just for learning:  I just started a colony with a handful of bees.  The bees in the pic I posted on mated vrs virgin queen.  I added a frame of bees with pollen/nectar.  I also added a frame of bee with brood and queen cells from a previous swarm that I caught.  The bees were placed in a 6 frame styrofoam hive, new to me.

I know, I realize what I did,,, on purpose.  Queen cells and a one year old mated swarm queen together.  I am thinking the queen cells will be torn down due to queen maturity rule by Brother Adam.  Brother Adam stressed a mature queen, will be accepted by foreign bees IF all are placed in new location, new hive body: and I?ve tried this successfully.  However I have never tried swarm cells and a mature queen with so few bees.  Soon we shall know.

In case you are thinking the queen will fly back to original hive, there is no hive at the old location.  Queen is not clipped, she can fly, so in a few days Ill report the results.

Thanks for the good discussion.  It helps hone the question down to essential elements.

Love hearing all the comments.  Didn't know what mountain camp was, for instance, until this thread.

Let's get em through their first winter. 3 deep 6 frames. no worries no need for feeding.
During the season you can easily be 6 high I have had 10 f go 4d 6m.
Don't choke em by not having room to work.
Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Quote from: Troutdog on April 09, 2020, 07:49:47 PM
Let's get em through their first winter. 3 deep 6 frames. no worries no need for feeding.
During the season you can easily be 6 high I have had 10 f go 4d 6m.
Don't choke em by not having room to work.
Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Thanks, Troutdog.  Was hoping to hear from you.

Makes perfect sense.

Father Michael, last year I tried new winter configurations.  Standard in my area is two deeps, Langstrof.  So I tried four each two box 5 frame nucs, side by side touching each other to share warmth, one 3 high nuc and one  single deep 10 frame Langstroth.

The single 10 frame single deep surprised me, the hive did great, could not ask for better results.  The 3 hive nuc was the first to perish, starved by Feb. also 2 nucs side by side perished, starved March 1st.  And finally all my double 10 frame did fine.

I tried 4 sets of nucs, 2 boxes high.  Two starved, the other two, I fed and that is the only reason they survived.  All said, no more over wintering nucs in my area for me.

My reasoning, the slim nuc box placed the cluster of bees to close to outside wall.  Whereas the 10 frame afforded space between the cluster and cold walls of the hive body.  My reasoning is a guess, just a guess, only tried over wintering nucs last winter.  So consider my limited source.  Also this winter was unrelenting daily cold, only one chinook, at Christmas, 64F.

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 09, 2020, 10:33:03 PMMy reasoning, the slim nuc box placed the cluster of bees to close to outside wall.  Whereas the 10 frame afforded space between the cluster and cold walls of the hive body.  My reasoning is a guess, just a guess, only tried over wintering nucs last winter.  So consider my limited source.  Also this winter was unrelenting daily cold, only one chinook, at Christmas, 64F.

Thanks, Van.  Sorry that you lost some hives.

I wonder how much survivability an insulated hive buys.

It gets pretty darn cold in Finland and they make the hives I'll put new nucs in next month.

But they make those 6 frame nucs, too.

We have a problem herewith heat.  We get wind off the Chihuahua Desert nearly all summer sometime with weeks above 100*.  The Paradise 6 framers do not have venting in the top -- so that would be th puzzle for me if I went with them.

I did winter over a lyson, styrofoam, 10 frame double deep.  The hive wintered very well, was very robust in March: plenty of bees and food.  I?ll post a pic if a few minutes.  Hive has 1 inch hard foam, R8 value.  For comparison wood is 0.8.

[attachment=0][/attachment]

Two foam hives, one is a new to me, 6 frame, the yellow and green hive is the hive that wintered so well.  Both hives have upper vents in the lid.

34F this AM, bees are cold, not much activity due to cold.

Good looking boxes Mr Van.

Thank you so much, Van.

Given your colder than normal winter it seems that the insulated hive helped a lot?

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 09, 2020, 03:27:41 PM
Father Michael, I don?t know if your question pertains to starting a colony.  Appears to be winter arrangement.  FYI, the following.

Just for learning:  I just started a colony with a handful of bees.  The bees in the pic I posted on mated vrs virgin queen.  I added a frame of bees with pollen/nectar.  I also added a frame of bee with brood and queen cells from a previous swarm that I caught.  The bees were placed in a 6 frame styrofoam hive, new to me.

I know, I realize what I did,,, on purpose.  Queen cells and a one year old mated swarm queen together.  I am thinking the queen cells will be torn down due to queen maturity rule by Brother Adam.  Brother Adam stressed a mature queen, will be accepted by foreign bees IF all are placed in new location, new hive body: and I?ve tried this successfully.  However I have never tried swarm cells and a mature queen with so few bees.  Soon we shall know.

In case you are thinking the queen will fly back to original hive, there is no hive at the old location.  Queen is not clipped, she can fly, so in a few days Ill report the results.

Queen was accepted, queen cells torn down.  I just checked, all is well.  I did mix bees and frames from other hives.