Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

Do most beeks mark their queens? I never thought to, with a limited number of hives, yet I wonder about it now that I want to know what is happening with this swarming hive.
How many of you marks your queens, or only in certain situations?

Under normal circumstances I don't mark my queens.  I have 6 hives (well technically 7 right now, but by tomorrow I'm pretty sure it'll be 6).  It's rare that I don't inspect a particular hive once every 2 weeks, so I'd likely catch a supersedure if one was happening, and if I miss one, I don't really care that much.  I'd rather have a supersedure that I didn't catch than accidentally injure a queen marking her.  However I did mark a queen once, when I had a hive that was swarming itself to death, and a bunch of virgin queens were running around in the hive.  I arbitrarily picked one queen to be the winner, marked her, and removed the rest.  That way if I missed a queen, I'd know if the queen I was seeing was the winning queen or not.  That actually did happen, but I never found the marked queen, so the two must have fought and the marked queen lost.   

How good are you at marking Bob? I posted a video here about a month ago which might help you if you have no experience or a mentor.

I keep bees as a hobby and have a mix of 20 hives and nucs and mark all queens. Its nice to know when they supersede, it lets me know why a hive is behind the rest. I found most queens last 2 years. a few 3 years and I only had one queen go 4 years before she was superseded.  Funny thing is that queen never had a booming hive, kind of steady as she goes and produced 2 or 3 supers a year.  When it comes to grafting I don't care about age so much as I do about whether the queen came out of winter with a strong hive without having to supplement feed. 

A good mnemonic:  Bees          Want          Yellow        Roses        Growing
                             Blue           White         Yellow        Red           Green
    Years ending in:  0                1               2               3               4
                             5                6               7               8               9

I used the tube and plunger and even picked up queens for years until I tried a one handed queen catcher.  Practice on drones.

Bob, I don?t mark.  Most of my queens are Cordovan Italian so no need to mark, naturally marked at birth.

Marking poses risks so I don't mark.

Quote from: Acebird on April 29, 2020, 08:39:40 AM
Marking poses risks so I don't mark.

Ace you are right, I did lose a really nice queen last year, after marking she was balled. I had went down the line marking newly mated and laying queens. All went well until this particular one. She was BUTE! (As Opie told his paw concerning his black eye), lol.  She looked like Mr Vans Alpha and already had a couple frames of well laid out capped brood.

When I first began marking, my concern was hurting the queen in some way. So, I bought one of those queen marking cages. After the careful handling and losing that queen anyway, I am over that.  Now I reach in and grab them! . lol. No problems so far.

I mark for the reasons that Bob first explained. I want to know, if when I recuperate a swarm, was this swarm from one of my own hives. Or, if I inspect, is the queen, the original queen that I think she is? If marked there is no doubt she is the same queen, if not marked, my original has been replaced or swarmed etc. This does help in that respect. Not to mention easier faster spotting of the queen. I have found (many) queens look exactly the same unless of course, your were to put them under a microscope.  Marking my queens, leaves not doubt. Works for me. I offered to help Bob with the opportunity for a better way to begin marking queens for beginners than I had in my beginning, IF he is a beginner at marking. (Safe and effective)

I always considered clipping a wing to be more important than marking with paint, but I learned to find queens early on in my beekeeping.  Clipping is the only sure method to identify a colony's queen to be the original, and not a daughter. 

It also helps with swarming in that it buys a little time when swarm cells are found, and it causes the prime swarm to return to the hive when the queen can't fly with it.  Of course this only works with hives that are checked every 7 to 9 days, or are in a home apiary that is under observation.

I don?t. May come a time I need to.

I mark every queen/nuc I sell to the novice hobbiest.  I do not mark for the pros or in large numbers unless requested and for a addon fee.
In my own hives, only the queens that I am tracking for as showing briliance to graft from I will mark.  The regular mutts pumping honey I do not mark.

Quote from: Ben Framed on April 29, 2020, 11:26:51 AM

I mark for the reasons that Bob first explained. I want to know, if when I recuperate a swarm, was this swarm from one of my own hives. Or, if I inspect, is the queen, the original queen that I think she is? If marked there is no doubt she is the same queen, if not marked, my original has been replaced or swarmed etc. This does help in that respect.

Normal marking is by color that represents a year.  If you have beekeepers around you there is doubt as to the origin of the swarm unless you witness the swarm in action.

I don't mark queens. Too much work, and I don't want to risk hurting one. I don't care if they supercede, all I care about is that there's a productive queen. Only a couple of times have I had to go thru a large hive twice to find the queen.

I've actually had it take longer to find a young queen in a single box. On that occasion, the hive had brood and I couldn't find her. I think I went thru every frame at least 4 times, slower and slower. ... in exasperation I checked the lid which I had set aside at the start - and there she was, with 5 other bees.  :cheesy:

... but that's just me.  :grin:

We mark most of the queens we find in general inspections.
It makes them easier to find, especially if running around the box and not on frames.
Very young queens are hard to mark as they run around quicker.
We don't stick to calender colors as we find that light blue is the easiest to find.

I mark my queens when I find them. I usually use a One Handed Queen Marker. It makes it easier and safer. This year I was marking one by hand and she ended up with a blue wing. I will probably never see her again. I used to use only white but now I?m using the correct colors. I plan on getting the fluorescent ones now. Especially the yellow.
Jim Altmiller

I added a pole for this.
You can select up to 3 answers.
Jim Altmiller

Quote from: CoolBees on April 29, 2020, 06:14:21 PM
in exasperation I checked the lid which I had set aside at the start

Oh baby, always check that lid and never place it away from the hive.  One of the reasons I like inner covers because you can shake the bees off into the hive.

in exasperation I checked the lid which I had set aside at the start - and there she was, with 5 other bees

Glad you shared this CB, had not thought about that, good lesson

 >This year I was marking one by hand and she ended up with a blue wing.

I had the same thing happen my first year with a one handed queen catcher. I was concerned about that and posted here. They did replace her Jim. I did not want that to happen as I bought her form a fellow in Georgia known for gentle genetics.

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on April 29, 2020, 03:13:36 PM
I always considered clipping a wing to be more important than marking with paint, but I learned to find queens early on in my beekeeping.  Clipping is the only sure method to identify a colony's queen to be the original, and not a daughter. 

It also helps with swarming in that it buys a little time when swarm cells are found, and it causes the prime swarm to return to the hive when the queen can't fly with it.  Of course this only works with hives that are checked every 7 to 9 days, or are in a home apiary that is under observation.

AR, if a fella has a Cordovan queen breed to Italian drones as I, the queen always throws Italian daughters, Cordovan drones.  So a supercedute would result in Italian queen would prove a different queen without marking.  As I stated earlier Cordovan are marked at hatch, by Mother Nature so if an Italian queen showed up, I would know she was new.

Van,
If you have Cordovan Drones why would you not expect Cordovan Queens?
Jim Altmiller

There is always the chance of other beekeepers within flight range using Cordovan stock, or a past swarm from your colonies still in the area.  Also, sawdstmakr is correct, if your colonies produce drones there is the chance of the queen going to DCA's that have your drones in them.  The queen will usually fly further to mate than her drones do, but that will depend on the number of DCA's in your area.  If she has limited choices she mates with what is there.

I am not an expert on honey bee mating, but if your Cordovan Queen is cross mated her daughters from that cross mating will not show the Cordovan color.  They will carry the gene but it won't be displayed in them.  If a worker egg is made a queen her color should not be Cordovan.

When open mating the queen mates with 15 to 20 drones, some of which could be Cordovans.  If the worker egg is fertilized with the Cordovan drones semen then the worker has the Cordovan color.  If the egg is selected to be a queen she has the Cordovan color.

If your queen is II mated with only non-cordovan drones, all workers and possible queens should not show Cordovan coloration.

These are good points and all fair questions to Mr Van, but, in Mr Vans defence, He is a hobbyist AI/II bee breeder, well advanced. I think in his unique case, he probably keeps a closer eye on his hives than most of us put together. I would think it is a pretty safe bet he knows his queens per hive. Not in my case, I had better mark to be sure! lol

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 30, 2020, 12:39:27 PM
Van,
If you have Cordovan Drones why would you not expect Cordovan Queens?
Jim Altmiller

Jim, that is because my queens fly further than my Cordovan drones and cordovan drones are the last breed of drones to hatch.  Yes, there is a chance as you and AR are thinking.  However as Phil pointed out, as a hobbyist with few hives, I would see the Cordovan workers, very yellow that are striking.  I would grab that queen so fast and graft from that queen.  I know which queen is breed to Italian drones and only one bred to Cordovan, my Alpha queen.

I am currently waiting on Cordovan drones, one more week and the drones will be old enough for mating.  The first drones that appear are the Carniolan, source unknown, maybe feral, then Italian drone appear next, last is Cordovan drone.

I just did an Instrumental inseminated of a Cordovan queen but I had to use Italian drones as Cordovan drones are not flying yet.  So also, the time of year, early breed queens are all breed to Carni or Italian.

Blessings

Add:  Cordovan queens darken with age and vary in color somewhat.  I have seen almost neon yellow in full sun to typical yellow of Italian queen but of course with red head, throax and legs.

One last note: if you look closely at a queens throax, the throax varies.  If you wish, I can post pics of 3 different Cordovan queens, each with slightly different throax that is distinguished by a close eye.

Van;  What traits other than color are you selecting for?

I will add.  I checked on Alpha early spring before drones were flying so no way a imposter could slipped in.  Alpha also acts like a four year old queen.  Now before you think I am going nuts, let me explain how a four year old queens acts:

Alpha started laying late and very small patches of brood.  The brood was so few in number I was concerned Alpha would be supersedure so I added a frame of capped brood.  Now beginning mid April Alpha is started laying well, a good 4-6 weeks behind my other queens,  sound like a four year old to you?  Agreed not absolute but sure points in that age gender.  Alpha is a F1 generation Latshaw queen, yes, I can tract her genetics for breeding; she was paint marked but after 3 years just a speck remained as of last Fall.  This Spring the speck is gone.

AR, Norvel:
A funny note for AR: I have given away my extra queens to club members in desperate need.  I have need of a queen myself and have none, so I did a newspaper combine.  Kinda funny if ya think about it.   I will have a lot of queens in 2 weeks, but for now, I am out.

Van, you have let your good nature get the best of you.  You need to learn to say no.

Have you noticed an increase in longevity in the daughter queens of your Alpha queen?

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 30, 2020, 07:59:13 AM
I added a pole for this.
You can select up to 3 answers.
Jim Altmiller

Good idea. Thanks Jim.

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on April 30, 2020, 03:53:55 PM
Van, you have let your good nature get the best of you.  You need to learn to say no.

Have you noticed an increase in longevity in the daughter queens of your Alpha queen?

I have a three year old, daughter that is doing well.  In fact the three year old is my cloak hive for  queen rearing.

I put your nuc in a 10 frame? The queen filled up the 10 frame and swarmed,  the cold weather prevented inspections.  Time I inspected about a week later the hive is full of capped swarm cells.  Prolific, gentle bees you got there Norvel.
Van

From the poll, "why bother" is equal to "when I find them". If you have to find a lot of queens in a day then marked queens give you the edge.
If they are not on a frame and running around the box she is easier to find if marked.
Marking to track supersedure is a bit interesting rather than essential.
Marking of introduce queens is important to track the bees acceptance and to also allow evaluation of the queens performance.