The following is a spinoff from Thinking About Grafting
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 27, 2020, 05:35:52 PM
Thus subject came up a while back: virgin vrs mated queen. Honey Pump was quick to point out the bees will be strongly attracted to the mated queen whereas the virgin will weakly attract nurse bees...
Quote from: Ben Framed on April 28, 2020, 04:23:49 PM
This leaves me with a question. When a hive makes a secondary swarm/swarms as has been reported here on the forum, time and time again, the secondary swarm flies off with a virgin/virgins. Why would they possibly leave with a virgin when she does not possess the pheromones necessary to be paid much attention too? Has this been studied? Seems logical the queen MUST be mated. Otherwise, what would persuade a swarm to simply fly away when there is no queen to pay attention too? Perhaps you lifetimers can educate me once more lol ? And thanks.
Quote from: cao on April 28, 2020, 10:48:38 PM
It's not that they don't produce pheromones, just not as much as a mated queen. When I was catching the swarms last year that had multiple queens, Some were getting attention of the workers while others were being ignored. I assume that the ones being ignored were the younger less dominant ones.
If you were in a hive that a week before lost your mated queen to a swarm, had only queens in cells, then once they started hatching one or more of them decided to leave, I think you would pack your bags and hit the road.
If I were a bee, how would I know she was not going on a mating flight? I would also know she is a virgin according to prior statements. Because virgins go on mating flights, these mating flights do not mean they are hitting the road. lol.
I do know that virgins produce just enough pheromones to have (some) bees accompany them on mating flights. I also know that virgins, after mating on that flight, usually bring home more bees than they left with. I suppose after mating, they have what it takes to attract worker bees? However, I am asking about a full blown secondary swarm here and the virgins that HP and Van are describing (virgins). The ones that are basically ignored.
Mr Van brought this up here, and I very much appreciate that he did. I have learned very much from Mr Van. The man has knowledge running out of his ears! lol Thus my question following his statement. I think my question is a legitimate question and one I would hope for a clear answer, if a clear answer is known. I was hoping I would get Van or HPs clear input, or any other lifetime beekeepers input as to my original question above. From my limited knowledge, the logic just does not add up. Sometimes I ask tough questions. How else will I learn, and get solid answers?
Phillip Hall
I will make a guess and only a guess. I am guessing one or more of those virgins may possibly make that mating flight. Come back mated. THEN they make that secondary swarm.
.
I am not clear on the question. May I try to paraphrase as I understand at this moment...
Question:
How do the bees know if a queen that is leaving the hive is going on a mating flight or if she is swarming away never to return?
Thank you Mr HP Please bare with me. The question is as follows, stemming from Vans statement. "Thus subject came up a while back: virgin vrs mated queen. Honey Pump was quick to point out the bees will be strongly attracted to the mated queen whereas the virgin will weakly attract nurse bees..."
Thus my complicated question. 😊
When a hive makes a secondary swarm/swarms as has been reported here on the forum, time and time again, the secondary swarm flies off with a virgin/virgins. Why would they possibly leave with a virgin when she does not possess the pheromones necessary to be paid much attention too? Has this been studied? Seems logical the queen MUST be mated. Otherwise, what would persuade a swarm to simply fly away when there is no queen to pay attention too? Perhaps you lifetimers can educate me once more lol ? And thanks.
I am no expert on this but my interpretation is that he bees are in swarm mode, they are ready to go and only need a trigger, virgin out for a fly or on mating flight.
They gather her up and off we go.
Michael Bush talked about reducing hive size before the bees think about swarming, otherwise the hive reduction will be less effective as the bees are in swarm mode.
I know my next comment is a bit off topic but it emphasises the swarm mode concept. We remove brood and bees in Spring to control swarming, when we are doing this we find very few queen cells and get effective swarm control.
Thank you Oldbeavo. I am glad for you to be off topic. I always appreciate your input, anyway you display it on topic or off. 🙂 I am afraid sometimes my desire to learn could easily be perceived as overthinking things. I suppose it is my desire to learn. I appreciate the patience of all.
Perhaps an answer is embedded in knowing the following;
In swarm mode who is following who? Is the Queen following the bees or are the bees following the queen?
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on April 29, 2020, 04:52:52 AM
Perhaps an answer is embedded in knowing the following;
In swarm mode who is following who? Is the Queen following the bees or are the bees following the queen?
The question was directed at both scenarios, thus the complication of the question. In other words, if the queen follows the swarm, why would they simply fly off knowing they have no viable Queen to fly off with. (Remember they pay no or little attention to virgins). As per Vans statement, confirming you.
On the other hand. If the secondary swarms virgin flys off first? why would a swarm follow? (Again remember, they pay little to no attention to virgins). Would the hive not simply accept this as her mating flight and again not pay her much attention? At least not enough to boil out in a full fledged outright secondary swarm after her? (Except the few which accompany virgins on their mating flight, as mentioned above).
I think it is either, or!
In a general swarm the queen is following the bees.
In a secondary swarm (which I think does not need to happen if the first swarm was a good one) is the response to the bees being still in swarm mode for some reason. The virgin goes for a fly and in the excitement of swarm mode the bees follow and gather her up and of they go. My opinion only.
Trying to apply human logic to bees is not really possible, as they have their own processes and triggers. We would like to know all about bees and that is why a forum like this will continue for ever.
Keep in mind, the bees in the hive are making the decisions, not the queen. They decided when to move up into a super, when to shut down the queens egg laying for winter, when to swarm, and when to super swarm. The bees put the old queen on a diet one week before they are ready to swarm. They decide when to swarm. If they want to super swarm, they keep the virgin queens locked in their cells. On a secondary swarm, if they are done swarming, they will releases all of the queens when they swarm.
When they swarm, it is the scout bees who decide which new location they will select.
The worker bees are the ones who decide.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: Oldbeavo on April 29, 2020, 08:09:39 PM
I think it is either, or!
In a general swarm the queen is following the bees.
In a secondary swarm (which I think does not need to happen if the first swarm was a good one) is the response to the bees being still in swarm mode for some reason. The virgin goes for a fly and in the excitement of swarm mode the bees follow and gather her up and of they go. My opinion only.
Trying to apply human logic to bees is not really possible, as they have their own processes and triggers. We would like to know all about bees and that is why a forum like this will continue for ever.
Very logical reasoning.
Thanks to Jim and all the others also who have responded. Good points made.
I have to smile at Oldbeavos last couple sentences. " Trying to apply human logic to bees is not really possible, as they have their own processes and triggers. We would like to know all about bees and that is why a forum like this will continue for ever."
I think those words of wisdom are words we can all agree on. lol
Phillip
I am still confused on the objective of this one. ( What is the end game )
I am going to answer Ben question with: WHY? Why does this matter?
Swarming is procreation of the honey bee colony superorganism. Trying to sort out which bee does what with which queen in the midst of the event is likened to trying to understand and predict which sperm cell is going to make it all the way through the chaos and excitement.
Sorry it went over you head Mr HP. Lol J/K thanks for your answer.
Again I will revert back to Oldbeavos statement.
(We would like to know all about bees and that is why a forum like this will continue for ever.)
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on April 30, 2020, 01:54:13 PM
I am still confused on the objective of this one. ( What is the end game )
I am going to answer Ben question with: WHY? Why does this matter?
Swarming is procreation of the honey bee colony superorganism. Trying to sort out which bee does what with which queen in the midst of the event is likened to trying to understand and predict which sperm cell is going to make it all the way through the chaos and excitement.
As someone who loves random information, I've been following this thread with interest. I don't wish to speak for Phillip, but I have been asked this question myself on certain occasions. On the one hand, it doesn't matter. The knowledge of why bees follow a virgin queen in an afterswarm isn't likely to affect or change anything about the way we manage honey bees. On the other hand, I'm of the belief that all information has the potential to be significant, and that nothing, especially natural processes, function the way they do for no reason.
I'm reminded of an article I read by a pediatrician about the phenomenon of why infants hold their hands in a fist with their thumb on the inside (anyone who has been around babies probably knows what I'm talking about). This pediatrician repeatedly asked the question in medical school of why babies do this, and was always given one of two answers: "It's the palmar grasp reflex." (Which doesn't answer the question of "why?"), or "It's of no clinical significance." Later on in his career the doctor came across a congenital disability called amniotic band syndrome, where a fetus can be developmentally affected by pieces of loose amniotic sac that are floating around in the fluid. He theorized that the most common cause of this would be the fetus's nails scraping against the sac, if the fetus failed it hold its hands in a position that kept the nails hidden. Therefore the only safe hand position would be a fist with the thumbnail inside the other curled fingers.
I assume that Phillip is operating merely on the impulse of curiosity, but in my opinion there is no such thing as a surplus of knowledge. You never know what you might need to know or what might be important. :happy:
> I don't wish to speak for Phillip
Even though it was not your wish to speak for me Member, you did, and quite well may I add. lol
You hit the nail on the head. Thanks. I do like finding out things which I am interested in. Even things that may not seem to matter or important which may be considered off the beaten path. Bees are a subject that much is to be learned, a nice adventure. It is a blessing to have people such as yourself, Mr HoneyPump, Oldbeavo, and all the others here who share not only their knowledge of bees, but there love of the journey.
Blessings,
Phillip