Title: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 04, 2020, 05:31:01 PM
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 04, 2020, 05:31:01 PM
Got a hive making (and capping) queen cells. There are only 3 in the hive but 1 is capped and the other 2 are well on the way. These cells are in the middle of the frames. I wouldnt think they are wanting to swarm because they aren't over full and still have some building to do on several frames. The queen is in the hive and doing great! Laying like a champ....what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Acebird on May 04, 2020, 06:06:17 PM
Post by: Acebird on May 04, 2020, 06:06:17 PM
Nothing in beekeeping is surefire but you are describing supercedure.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Donovan J on May 04, 2020, 06:19:42 PM
Post by: Donovan J on May 04, 2020, 06:19:42 PM
Quote from: Fishing-Nut on May 04, 2020, 05:31:01 PM
Got a hive making (and capping) queen cells. There are only 3 in the hive but 1 is capped and the other 2 are well on the way. These cells are in the middle of the frames. I wouldnt think they are wanting to swarm because they aren't over full and still have some building to do on several frames. The queen is in the hive and doing great! Laying like a champ....what do you guys think?
Swarm cells are usually on the bottom of the frame and supersedure are in the middle.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: van from Arkansas on May 04, 2020, 06:27:53 PM
Post by: van from Arkansas on May 04, 2020, 06:27:53 PM
Fish, I experience the same issue with a package I installed last March. I took no action when I saw Queen cells and a laying queen. In April, there were two beautiful queens on the same frame. Again, I took no action.
To answer your question, refer to what Ace said. I know of no absolute way to make a distinction between swarm and supersedure cells. As already stated, location is the best indication.
To answer your question, refer to what Ace said. I know of no absolute way to make a distinction between swarm and supersedure cells. As already stated, location is the best indication.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: iddee on May 04, 2020, 06:35:46 PM
Post by: iddee on May 04, 2020, 06:35:46 PM
Ditto what Ace said.
Also, 1 to 5 is usually supercedure. 8 to 25 is swarm.
Also, 1 to 5 is usually supercedure. 8 to 25 is swarm.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: CoolBees on May 04, 2020, 07:02:11 PM
Post by: CoolBees on May 04, 2020, 07:02:11 PM
I would concur with all the other answers, and add that the bees know best (most of the time). :grin:
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 04, 2020, 07:34:00 PM
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 04, 2020, 07:34:00 PM
Thank yall....I just went through them and there are actually only capped cells in the hive. Also I don't know if it's worth mentioning but this is comb from a small removal/swarm removal I did and the bees aren't on foundation. I heard that foundation is what determined where the bees put queen cells....either way I wish they wouldnt supercede this queen. Shes huge, solid black and laying a fine pattern.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: iddee on May 04, 2020, 08:21:57 PM
Post by: iddee on May 04, 2020, 08:21:57 PM
Take her out and start a nuc. They are blaming her for the removal disturbance. It happens often after a large upheaval.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: buzzbee on May 04, 2020, 08:26:37 PM
Post by: buzzbee on May 04, 2020, 08:26:37 PM
I agree with Iddee but keep in mind that bees want to swarm and perpetuate the gene pool when resources are in tune with their instincts.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 04, 2020, 08:51:18 PM
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 04, 2020, 08:51:18 PM
Again thanks for the replies....I was gonna ask about that. I figure since they have them capped already they've pretty much made up their minds on getting rid of her.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Nock on May 04, 2020, 11:42:20 PM
Post by: Nock on May 04, 2020, 11:42:20 PM
Quote from: iddee on May 04, 2020, 08:21:57 PMIs that normal?
Take her out and start a nuc. They are blaming her for the removal disturbance. It happens often after a large upheaval.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 05, 2020, 12:50:00 AM
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 05, 2020, 12:50:00 AM
Idee how would you recommend me introducing her to a few frames of brood and bees? Keep her caged a while?
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: iddee on May 05, 2020, 06:15:59 AM
Post by: iddee on May 05, 2020, 06:15:59 AM
Depending on the size of the hive, I would take her and 1 frame of brood, along with one frame of food, at a minimum. More frames of brood and food if available. Then feed heavily and protect from robbing.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Acebird on May 05, 2020, 08:31:54 AM
Post by: Acebird on May 05, 2020, 08:31:54 AM
Quote from: Fishing-Nut on May 04, 2020, 07:34:00 PMI would not rely on that.
I heard that foundation is what determined where the bees put queen cells.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: AR Beekeeper on May 05, 2020, 10:07:24 AM
Post by: AR Beekeeper on May 05, 2020, 10:07:24 AM
My opinion is the reason swarm cells begin around the perimeter of the frame is because the queen is laying full speed. She has pushed the edge of the brood to the outside edges of the frame. Swarm cups are built on the edges of the brood where there is room to construct the cell downward.
Supersedure cells are made during a slowdown of laying so the brood area is more centered in the frame.
When the swarm cells are made and used there will be one or two dozen cells, and they will have larvae/pupa of different stages of development in them. Supersedure cells will usually be less than six or eight and they will all be the same stage of development.
When the cells are capped, if the queen is still in the hive it is a supersedure. The queen will depart the hive on the day of, or the day after cells are capped if it is a swarm situation.
Swarming situations usually have very large adult bee populations and many frames of sealed brood, and are usually before or at the beginning of the nectar flow. Supercedure situations are usually at the tail end of the nectar flow, there will be a reduction of frames with brood.
Supersedure can turn into an emergency queen replacement if the queen is injured or sick. She can die earlier than expected, and the bees will begin emergency cells in addition to the supersedure cells started earlier. Learning to judge what the bees intentions are comes with experience (also known as making mistakes).
Supersedure cells are made during a slowdown of laying so the brood area is more centered in the frame.
When the swarm cells are made and used there will be one or two dozen cells, and they will have larvae/pupa of different stages of development in them. Supersedure cells will usually be less than six or eight and they will all be the same stage of development.
When the cells are capped, if the queen is still in the hive it is a supersedure. The queen will depart the hive on the day of, or the day after cells are capped if it is a swarm situation.
Swarming situations usually have very large adult bee populations and many frames of sealed brood, and are usually before or at the beginning of the nectar flow. Supercedure situations are usually at the tail end of the nectar flow, there will be a reduction of frames with brood.
Supersedure can turn into an emergency queen replacement if the queen is injured or sick. She can die earlier than expected, and the bees will begin emergency cells in addition to the supersedure cells started earlier. Learning to judge what the bees intentions are comes with experience (also known as making mistakes).
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on May 05, 2020, 12:32:56 PM
Post by: TheHoneyPump on May 05, 2020, 12:32:56 PM
Excellent AR. 
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: iddee on May 05, 2020, 01:38:48 PM
Post by: iddee on May 05, 2020, 01:38:48 PM
""Swarm cups are built on the edges of the brood where there is room to construct the cell downward."
DITTO, and that may be in the middle of a damaged frame where there is an edge to the comb.
DITTO, and that may be in the middle of a damaged frame where there is an edge to the comb.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: AR Beekeeper on May 05, 2020, 08:34:25 PM
Post by: AR Beekeeper on May 05, 2020, 08:34:25 PM
Yes, they will make queen cups in damaged areas of comb, not always, but often enough those areas need to be checked during inspections. I try to cull damaged comb from the brood nest, the comb there should be the ones drawn out with all worker cells. Damaged comb is fine for use in surplus honey supers, but not in the brood area if possible.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Acebird on May 06, 2020, 08:47:56 AM
Post by: Acebird on May 06, 2020, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on May 05, 2020, 08:34:25 PMIDK that pretty much leaves out cut outs.
Damaged comb is fine for use in surplus honey supers, but not in the brood area if possible.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Oldbeavo on May 07, 2020, 07:16:39 PM
Post by: Oldbeavo on May 07, 2020, 07:16:39 PM
FN
If you find her on her on a frame of brood with no QC's, then just take her and the bees for the nuc.
If the frame is fully capped then shake of bees from a frame of open brood will give the nuc some nurse bees that will stay with the queen.
There is no need to cage her or do anything if you use her brood and bees.
If you find her on her on a frame of brood with no QC's, then just take her and the bees for the nuc.
If the frame is fully capped then shake of bees from a frame of open brood will give the nuc some nurse bees that will stay with the queen.
There is no need to cage her or do anything if you use her brood and bees.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 10:32:42 AM
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 10:32:42 AM
Well I went into them yesterday planning to start a nuc....both of the queen cells are gone...one was completely gone and the other was being chewed down as I watched. She was also still in the hive walking around and laying good. Wander why they changed their minds after being so far along with queen cells. Or do you think they are still superseding her and there is a virgin queen in the hive along with her? I just left them alone yesterday. I also found out the hard way yesterday that I have a hive that absolutely WILL NOT TOLERATE the weed eater!!
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on May 08, 2020, 11:26:43 AM
Post by: TheHoneyPump on May 08, 2020, 11:26:43 AM
Ooooioh yeah! It does not matter what bees you have. The meanest or the calmest. When the whipper snipper comes out and gets near the hive entrance they all go absolutely nuts. Suit up! Must be the pitch of vibration of the snipper cords that does it.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: CoolBees on May 08, 2020, 12:57:17 PM
Post by: CoolBees on May 08, 2020, 12:57:17 PM
Quote from: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 10:32:42 AM... I also found out the hard way yesterday that I have a hive that absolutely WILL NOT TOLERATE the weed eater!!
My observations on this are:
My bees don't bother me about the Weeder as long as: I move thru quickly, AND I don't clip one of the heavily loaded workers that missed the landing board and ended up in the grass. As soon as I hit one, I'm guessing she sets off the alarm and they pick up on that right quick! :grin:
I have my hives set about 20" off the ground on stands. I use a Gas powered weed eater. They shy away from the exhaust. .... on an addition note - I tried a Torch to burn weeds around the stands instead. That didn't work either - bees were dropping dead out of the air from the heat as they came in from the fields. I stopped that quick! :embarassed:
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: iddee on May 08, 2020, 01:40:51 PM
Post by: iddee on May 08, 2020, 01:40:51 PM
My gas weed eater has choke, half-choke, and run positions. On half-choke, I can cut all around the hives with no problem. The minute I turn it to run, I better do just that. They will cover me up.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 02:31:08 PM
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 02:31:08 PM
The hive next to it did nothing.....this hive came pouring out like they were on fire and chased me all the way to my bee suit!!
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: CoolBees on May 08, 2020, 02:51:40 PM
Post by: CoolBees on May 08, 2020, 02:51:40 PM
Quote from: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 02:31:08 PM
.....this hive came pouring out like they were on fire and chased me all the way to my bee suit!!
:grin: ... I'd check them for queenright-ness - just in case.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 03:16:00 PM
Post by: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 03:16:00 PM
Cool bees they are definitely queen right. Just a little mean. I actually like them to be mean (ish) ....not downright nasty....just a little on the mean side
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: CoolBees on May 08, 2020, 04:16:21 PM
Post by: CoolBees on May 08, 2020, 04:16:21 PM
Quote from: Fishing-Nut on May 08, 2020, 03:16:00 PM
Cool bees they are definitely queen right. Just a little mean. I actually like them to be mean (ish) ....not downright nasty....just a little on the mean side
Good deal. I just thought I'd mention it.
I agree with you. I like the bees to have a little "spirit". Those seem to be more productive. ... to me so far.
Title: Re: Is there a surefire way to tell a swarm from a supercedure?
Post by: Michael Bush on May 11, 2020, 02:03:51 PM
Post by: Michael Bush on May 11, 2020, 02:03:51 PM
http://bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm#supersedure
http://bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#swarmcellsonbottom
http://bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#swarmcellsonbottom