Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

I have heard two different answers on one subject. I do not Yet have the experience to know which is correct.  There are many things taught via different avenues which are good and accurate information. There are others times when things taught are taught opinion, or taught because (my mentor told me so). I have heard, both ways of the following question.

Excluding grafting and speaking of nature?s way, some say swarm cells make the best queens and emergency queens are inferior. I do not know why this statement would be true? Why would a emergency queen be any less inferior? Would the bees not select the proper age larva in both cases? Would the bees not feed the proper amount of Royal Jelly to each type? etc.

What is your opinion? What have you experienced?

My thoughts:

Short answer

QuoteWhy would a emergency queen be any less inferior?

1) Bees create swarm cells when conditions are optimal (pollen, nectar, large population, etc).  Bees created emergency cells in an "emergency" regardless of resources they have available.
2) Swarm cells are produced vertically from the start.  Emergency cells start horizontal and they have to "float" the larvae out on thinned out royal jelly to raise it vertical.

QuoteWould the bees not select the proper age larva in both cases?

So the proponents of emergency cells claim "Bees will pick the correct age larva".   That may be the case, but in an emergency situation they will pick "any" larvae.   If bees "always" pick the correct larvae,  why do they try to make queen cells out of unfertilized eggs in a laying worker hive? 

QuoteWhat have you experienced?

My experience has been emergency queens can look and perform fine when conditions are good, but fail come fall when things aren't so good.  Which happens to be the worst time to have a hive go queenless.   As a student of feral colonies, my opinion is the "emergency" situation happens very rarely in feral colonies.   Surely much less than what beekeepers cause.   Just because bees "can" make an emergency queen doesn't mean it should become an acceptable standard.

Long Answer:  https://www.beevac.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/

This information is from memory, and may be outdated by newer research, but this is what I have read about queens.

Swarm queens are begun with eggs.  They are fed from hatch with the purpose of developing into a queen.  This means they are LAVISHLY fed with Royal Jelly and will receive Royal Jelly their entire larval stage.

Emergency queens are begun with larvae, not eggs, that are between 0 and 72 hours old from egg hatch.  These larva were not to become queens until the emergency occurred, so they were not as lavishly fed as a swarm queen larva is.  Once the larva is selected to become a queen, then the nurse bees begin feeding the larva in quantity.  Because all larva receive Royal Jelly the first 24 hours of the larva stage it is the amount fed that gives the swarm queen larva the head start in development.

The younger a larva is when selected to become a queen the better the feeding, so the better ovary development is. This is what determines how many eggs the queen is capable of laying.  Studies done have shown that for practical beekeeping purposes a larva no older than 24 hours from hatch will become a good queen.  Most queen producers consider the larva between 18 and 24 hours from hatch are the ones to be grafted.

Controlled studies done by Wyoke in Poland found that bees making emergency queens will select larvae less than 24 hours old up to 36 hours old two out of every three times.  The third time they will select older larva that would become an inferior queen.  If allowed to mature, the older larva would emerge first and this could result in the younger larvae being killed in the cells.  Often the bees would allow the older larva's cell to almost mature and then would tear it down before the queen could fully develop.

A beekeeper using Emergency Cell queens will have a 2 out of 3 chance to have an acceptable queen, and on the third chance will have a poor queen.

A beekeeper using Swarm Cell queens will have a chance at having a good queen 3 our of 3 times.

It is probable that the average hobby beekeeper will not be able to tell the difference between swarm and emergency queen until the emergency queen suddenly fails.  The Sideliner that pays attention to each colony in an effort to get a maximum harvest probably would.

I think of it this way;
Swarm cells are made when a hive is strong and healthy.  They generally have time to pick healthy larvae at just the right age, and usually at an abundant time in the season, all resulting in a healthier more robust queen.
Emergency queens are often made when a hive is in dire distress, perhaps the queen has died or no longer lays well.  In this case, they fewer larvae to choose from may force choices outside of prime larval age.  This might be during a slow part of the season or perhaps even during a dearth.   As you know, there are fewer drones around in a dearth, so the breeding may be less successful than during abundant flow.  All these and other factors individually or any combination can result in an inferior queen.

Good stuff 😊Thanks folks......

Quote from: Hops Brewster on July 08, 2020, 11:50:16 AM
Swarm cells are made when a hive is strong and healthy.

That should tell you something ... If you are going to raise queens based on the emergency cell method then you should do it when the hive is strong and healthy AND at a time when the hive has the greatest chance of success.  Grafting and cutting out queen cells is only necessary if you are intending to sell them or need the commercial expansion for your business.  The biggest crap shoot with emergency queens is in the mating process which is the same for all queens naturally mated.

If conditions are good after raising an emergency queen the bees will supersede her. Unless you are marking queens or in the bottom box frequently you may not even know it has happened.

Thanks All for your guidance.  I am learning  :)

Excluding grafting?  This is how queens are made, by emergency response.  Consider:

ll take an emergency response Queen cell any day with the following in mind.


Good question Mr. Ben, as usual I might add.   Almost all queens sold are produced by the emergency response of the honey bee.  That is the hive is made queenless either a starter/finisher hive or cloak board method.  Both methods reproduce a queenless hive precipitating the emergency response by the honey bees to raise our queens.

The emergency response is how I raise queens, same as 99 percent of all queens sold in the world.

Now I realize your question was regarding a natural swarm cell compared to a natural emergency queen cell.  However I wanted to point out the paradox of the emergency queen cell as the standard for raising superior queens in the bee business but in this thread the emergency queen cell is frowned upon and I agree.  In summation there are two types of emergency queen cells.  Getting late, got to go...

Blessings

Quote from: van from Arkansas on July 08, 2020, 11:53:23 PM
Excluding grafting?  This is how queens are made, by emergency response.  Consider:

ll take an emergency response Queen cell any day with the following in mind.


Good question Mr. Ben, as usual I might add.   Almost all queens sold are produced by the emergency response of the honey bee.  That is the hive is made queenless either a starter/finisher hive or cloak board method.  Both methods reproduce a queenless hive precipitating the emergency response by the honey bees to raise our queens.

The emergency response is how I raise queens, same as 99 percent of all queens sold in the world.

Now I realize your question was regarding a natural swarm cell compared to a natural emergency queen cell.  However I wanted to point out the paradox of the emergency queen cell as the standard for raising superior queens in the bee business but in this thread the emergency queen cell is frowned upon and I agree.  In summation there are two types of emergency queen cells.  Getting late, got to go...

Blessings

Mr Van, what a great answer and great response! Your critical thinking is a real eye opener! Truth. Thank you once again for your wise words.

What does this mean for late season swarm queens?

I have such a queen from a hive that swarmed multiple times this year. Each successive swarm was smaller,
This queen is thinner, smaller, and not as good of a laying queen.
If a hive becomes a swarming hive, do they pick late eggs/larva, or do they give less attention (jelly) to these multiple swarm queens?

(Ben. Good topic.)

Quote from: van from Arkansas on July 08, 2020, 11:53:23 PM
Excluding grafting?  This is how queens are made, by emergency response.  Consider:

ll take an emergency response Queen cell any day with the following in mind.


Good question Mr. Ben, as usual I might add.   Almost all queens sold are produced by the emergency response of the honey bee.  That is the hive is made queenless either a starter/finisher hive or cloak board method.  Both methods reproduce a queenless hive precipitating the emergency response by the honey bees to raise our queens.

The emergency response is how I raise queens, same as 99 percent of all queens sold in the world.

Now I realize your question was regarding a natural swarm cell compared to a natural emergency queen cell.  However I wanted to point out the paradox of the emergency queen cell as the standard for raising superior queens in the bee business but in this thread the emergency queen cell is frowned upon and I agree.  In summation there are two types of emergency queen cells.  Getting late, got to go...

Blessings

Great clarification Van.

Quote from: Bob Wilson on July 09, 2020, 09:34:24 AM
What does this mean for late season swarm queens?

I have such a queen from a hive that swarmed multiple times this year. Each successive swarm was smaller,
This queen is thinner, smaller, and not as good of a laying queen.
If a hive becomes a swarming hive, do they pick late eggs/larva, or do they give less attention (jelly) to these multiple swarm queens?

(Ben. Good topic.)

Very good point Bob....  Good post.  I agree, this topic is turning out to be very interesting thanks to each poster and each persons outlook.

Quote from: Bob Wilson on July 09, 2020, 09:34:24 AM
If a hive becomes a swarming hive, do they pick late eggs/larva, or do they give less attention (jelly) to these multiple swarm queens?

I don't think so.  I think the parent hive just runs out of resources to support a new hive.

Ok so this concurrence is saying that 3-frame splits with eggs are not as ideal
as letting a colony reach the brink of swarm stage and then dividing the swarm cells among 3 frame queenless nucs.  Right?

If you split a hive for swarm control, then the conditions must be ideal or the need to split the hive would not be needed.
If you do a 3 frame split and put enough bees, including the nurse bees on the frame with open brood and eggs, and the nectar and pollen availability are good then the queen reared will be OK.
We will shake a frame of open brood plus the brood frame bees into a nuc to guarantee enough bees to rear good cells.
A lot of our splits rear their own queens in spring on Canola, good nectar and pollen.

Quote from: FloridaGardener on July 10, 2020, 06:22:34 PM
Ok so this concurrence is saying that 3-frame splits with eggs are not as ideal
as letting a colony reach the brink of swarm stage and then dividing the swarm cells among 3 frame queenless nucs.  Right?

I don't think so.  One is on their calendar and one is on yours.  Yours should be more reliable.

You have to decide why you are splitting, swarm control or increasing hive numbers.
If it is swarm control then the splitting should be done before they have raised queen cells (ref. M.Bush). If you leave swarm control until there are cells the hive is in swarm mode and even though you remove the cells they will form more and swarm.
If you are splitting to increase hive numbers then make sure you have good conditions for the bees to raise a queen or you could add a cell to the split. Cells can be purchased from queen breeders and time your splits to suit.