I found this forum and it looks like a good one. I'm thinking it is only for honey bees though instead of the mason bees I plan on raising and need tips on. is this forum only for honey bees or is it all types of bees? thank you apologies if its only for honeys.
Welcome Andrew. This is a honey bee forum but we are diverse. The15thMember posted of mason bees here a few months ago. I feel certain she will respond to you soon.
thank you for the reply. well hopefully they do so ill sit here and check every so often just so I don't clog up the forum lol. in the meantime its research time.
Did someone say mason bees? *Sound of running footsteps approaching* I'm here! I do love native bees, and I provide nesting sites for masons on my property, although I don't really raise them per se. There are certainly no rules about this forum being only honey bees, but I'm not sure if there are any people with actual experience managing other bees. Are you interested in masons for a specific purpose like orchard pollination or are you just looking to have them as a hobby?
ah welcome! lol. I am looking at them for a hobby but I do have a cherry tree right by it so maybe I could use them for help on that I for sure wouldn't mind them for that.
Quote from: AndrewD12 on February 05, 2021, 12:10:14 AM
ah welcome! lol. I am looking at them for a hobby but I do have a cherry tree right by it so maybe I could use them for help on that I for sure wouldn't mind them for that.
Great! I always love it when people are interested in native bees. So much of the focus is on honey bees, and it's really the native bees who are most in need of help. Check out HoneyBeeSuite.com, I use Rusty's methods for making nests out of cans and paper straws. The process is easy and cheap, and as long as there are masons or leafcutters in your area, they should come and nest there of their own accord without you having to purchase any bees. I have masons that nest in the cans, as well as in holes in the mortar between the stones on the exterior of my house, and I occasionally get leafcutters and masons in a solitary bee house I got as a gift. I put up another can for the masons this year and they didn't really like the location, but some small beneficial solitary potter wasps nested in that one instead, so you never know what kinds of insects you'll be benefitting by putting up nesting tubes.
thank you! I've always been interested just never really thought about it until this year. I built a little house thats 6 inches deep and faces south to get sun and I added a roof to protect it from the weather. its located right above my flower garden and I added sticks to give it a variety instead of all flat tubes. I used tubes with a 5/16th opening and 5 1/2 inches long. do I need to plug the back of the tube with clay? I guess I've been over thinking about what if no bees show up or pick the house I made so thats why I was trying to look for info on that because a lot say buy and a lot say don't. but thank you ill have to check out that link.
Quote from: AndrewD12 on February 05, 2021, 12:32:41 AM
do I need to plug the back of the tube with clay?
I think they do prefer the tubes to be backed already, although in the absence of other nesting sites, they would probably back them themselves. They like the tubes to be plugged on one end already because it's less work for them, one less wall they need to build. With the straws in the can, they are backed just by the bottom of the can.
I' have some experience working with blue orchard bees, my local mason bee.
In nature, mason bees nest in borer holes in old dead hardwood trees in semi-sun. Dappled shade in the afternoon is good. Their nests usually face somewhere in the southeast quadrant. The closer you can get to replicating their natural environment the better. I hang my cans on my 45 year-old wooden fence facing due east and they get afternoon shade. Facing due south with no shade can easily get too hot. It might also encourage them to emerge before you want them to. There should be moist soil or mud nearby in the spring to use building the nests.
They are early pollinators, so cherries and apricots may benefit, but if you are expecting summer-long pollination you will be disappointed. Leaf cutters are summer pollinators. If you have a native population of mason bees the holes you provide will likely attract some. If there are none in your neighborhood, then you will need to buy some, or go trap them yourself in the woods which is another topic entirely.
thank you guys. I also see bees around because our whole fence is covered in honey suckles and other flowers I just don't know the type of bee that they are. I might try leaf cutters because I don't really have as many early spring blooms besides magnolias and a cherry and stuff so I wouldn't want to starve them lol.
Quote from: AndrewD12 on February 05, 2021, 11:29:20 AM
thank you guys. I also see bees around because our whole fence is covered in honey suckles and other flowers I just don't know the type of bee that they are. I might try leaf cutters because I don't really have as many early spring blooms besides magnolias and a cherry and stuff so I wouldn't want to starve them lol.
You'll be amazed how many different bees there are around once you start looking and learn a little bit about identifying them. I'd recommend the book "The Bees in Your Backyard" as a great starting place for identifying bees if you are interested.
thank you i might just have to do that cause I've always wondered what type they are. I've had to save a few bees from our swimming pool before. so overall do you think I should just let nature take its course this year and see if any show up? or start off with leaf cutter cocoons. because all I see are a lot of cocoons and they are 20-30$ minimum. I don't know why but I like seeing things start off small and grow over the years lol.
Quote from: AndrewD12 on February 05, 2021, 07:16:22 PM
thank you i might just have to do that cause I've always wondered what type they are. I've had to save a few bees from our swimming pool before. so overall do you think I should just let nature take its course this year and see if any show up? or start off with leaf cutter cocoons. because all I see are a lot of cocoons and they are 20-30$ minimum. I don't know why but I like seeing things start off small and grow over the years lol.
I mean, if it was me, I'd just wait and see if it'll work without purchasing any. Why pay for something you could get for free, right? :grin: You might try planting some things that are attractive to them if you are having trouble getting any, although I'd imagine the cherry tree would be a pretty big draw. I'm not sure what your area is like or what bees you have, but even if you can't seem to lure in any leafcutters or masons, there are lots of other bees you could help in other ways, bumble bees, carpenter bees, miner/digger bees to name a few. You could always try targeting those instead, or in addition to the tube-nesters. In my area, if you leave any bare dirt, miner bees will be nesting in it within a year. I have a large established colony behind my house in a dirt bank, and they come up every year without fail.
If you build it, they will come. :tongue: I have drilled holes in blocks of wood for the mason bees in the past. If you have any around they will find them. If you continue having a nesting area year after year, you can get a good sized population fairly quickly.
hopefully I have them around ill most likely see what happens and how nature cares takes its course unless I randomly come across someone with extras somewhere. I'm going to finish building and filling their house and see what happens in the spring! I wish all of you the best of luck with your bees this year.
>...and it's really the native bees who are most in need of help.
Actually it?s all pollinators that are in need of help.
Quote from: The15thMember on February 05, 2021, 12:22:51 AM
I always love it when people are interested in native bees. So much of the focus is on honey bees, and it's really the native bees who are most in need of help.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 05, 2021, 10:47:39 PM
>...and it's really the native bees who are most in need of help.
Actually it?s all pollinators that are in need of help.
Obviously all pollinators are in need of help, Michael. I was clearly speaking in the context of comparing different bees.
My point is they are all equally in need of help. I have some bee houses for various native bees, and I drill holes in the logs I use for stools around my campfire to give native bees places to nest. But the pollinators are all equally in trouble for the same reasons. Loss of forage. Loss of habitat. Widespread use of insecticides.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 07, 2021, 04:05:48 PM
My point is they are all equally in need of help. I have some bee houses for various native bees, and I drill holes in the logs I use for stools around my campfire to give native bees places to nest. But the pollinators are all equally in trouble for the same reasons. Loss of forage. Loss of habitat. Widespread use of insecticides.
I would disagree. Honey bees and other managed bee species are not at risk of endangerment/extinction like wild bees are.
Since we are diverging here, I can see both sides of the extinction debate. I keep coming back to human intervention though.
I?m still very young in the bee realm, but I think endangered, in the practical sense, means without human intervention. As I understand it, it is unknown if bees would survive the mites, viruses, beetles and moths without human intervention.
Honeybees are most successful due to commercial production. If the economy or some other factor other than environmental took a turn that caused commercial beekeepers to let their bees go feral, would survive as a species. Sure some of us would keep small qualities going, others would join in I?m sure, but without human intervention, are the secure?
On the flip side, as things are, we will continue to have honey bees for the foreseeable future.
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Quote from: .30WCF on February 11, 2021, 01:07:30 AM
Since we are diverging here, I can see both sides of the extinction debate. I keep coming back to human intervention though.
I?m still very young in the bee realm, but I think endangered, in the practical sense, means without human intervention. As I understand it, it is unknown if bees would survive the mites, viruses, beetles and moths without human intervention.
Honeybees are most successful due to commercial production. If the economy or some other factor other than environmental took a turn that caused commercial beekeepers to let their bees go feral, would survive as a species. Sure some of us would keep small qualities going, others would join in I?m sure, but without human intervention, are the secure?
On the flip side, as things are, we will continue to have honey bees for the foreseeable future.
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I agree, .30. The issue that I'm really referring to is the whole "Save the Bees" thing. While honey bees have all sorts of issues that beekeepers are (hopefully) helping them deal with, it seems unlikely to me that those problems would become so out of control that honey bees would cease to be managed as livestock in some form or another. They perhaps need assistance, but I don't feel like honey bees need to be "saved", and I find that people who become beekeepers to "Save the Honey Bee" may end up doing more harm than good if they assume that putting a hive in their yard and not managing it properly is somehow helping to stave off extinction. Rusty Burlew from Honey Bee Suite likened it to keeping chickens to save songbirds. Honey bees' issues and saving bee populations are two completely different things. I think we need to put much more focus on the native bees, who everyone can easily help to support and who are actually in danger of extinction. Let the beekeepers handle the honey bees, and if someone wants to become a beekeeper to help with honey bees' problems that's awesome, but for those who are coming at it from a conservation perspective, I feel that honey bees aren't the area to focus on, and the wild bees are.
Everything you do to help honey bees helps all bees. Everything you do to help any pollinators, helps honey bees.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 19, 2021, 07:38:24 PM
Everything you do to help honey bees helps all bees. Everything you do to help any pollinators, helps honey bees.
I'm sorry, but that is just not true. If I put up nesting tubes for mason bees, that doesn't help honey bees. If I plant red clover or snapdragons for bumble bees, it doesn't help honey bees. If I plant a seed mix for generalist bees like honey bees, it won't help specialist bees. If I figure out some miracle cure for varroa, it won't help wild bees. If I plant a night blooming flower for moths, it doesn't help any bees.
Quote from: .30WCF on February 19, 2021, 09:50:46 PM
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/h4a9QBNclmw2oQo5bQ/giphy.gif)
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Hahaha! :cheesy:
You got to have a little fun.
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>I'm sorry, but that is just not true. If I put up nesting tubes for mason bees, that doesn't help honey bees.
Yes. It does. Those bees will help the plants that help pollinators and honey bees are pollinators.
>If I plant red clover or snapdragons for bumble bees, it doesn't help honey bees.
Yes. It does. The bumble bees now have a food supply that the honey bees are not competing with and the bumble bees are not taking nectar that could be used by the honey bees because they are busy with the red clover.
> If I plant a seed mix for generalist bees like honey bees, it won't help specialist bees.
Sure it does. The more pollen and nectar out there the better for every pollinator.
>If I figure out some miracle cure for varroa, it won't help wild bees.
The honey bees will be propagating flowers that help all pollinators.
>If I plant a night blooming flower for moths, it doesn't help any bees.
I can't say. But in my experience everywhere I go there are no pollinators to speak of. I bring my honey bees and I start seeing all kinds of pollinators. Then I bring my leaf cutter bees and I see even more pollinators. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 27, 2021, 05:43:41 PM
>I'm sorry, but that is just not true. If I put up nesting tubes for mason bees, that doesn't help honey bees.
Yes. It does. Those bees will help the plants that help pollinators and honey bees are pollinators.
>If I plant red clover or snapdragons for bumble bees, it doesn't help honey bees.
Yes. It does. The bumble bees now have a food supply that the honey bees are not competing with and the bumble bees are not taking nectar that could be used by the honey bees because they are busy with the red clover.
> If I plant a seed mix for generalist bees like honey bees, it won't help specialist bees.
Sure it does. The more pollen and nectar out there the better for every pollinator.
>If I figure out some miracle cure for varroa, it won't help wild bees.
The honey bees will be propagating flowers that help all pollinators.
>If I plant a night blooming flower for moths, it doesn't help any bees.
I can't say. But in my experience everywhere I go there are no pollinators to speak of. I bring my honey bees and I start seeing all kinds of pollinators. Then I bring my leaf cutter bees and I see even more pollinators. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Okay, I see your point. But I still think that people only interested in bee conservation shouldn't necessarily become beekeepers. While in certain instances bringing honey bees into an area can help things, there are also situations where it does more harm than good. And I feel like native bees don't get anywhere near enough coverage to the public. This article covers it pretty well. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-problem-with-honey-bees/
I agree that native bees are important. As are other native pollinators that aren't even bees. But if you plant things that help pollinators, you help them all. If you stop spraying insecticides, you help them all. If you provide housing for native bees, you help them all. If you provide housing for honey bees you help them all. Then there is the issue of whether or not honey bees are native...
Vikings were here around 1000 a.d. If there were no honeybees here at the time, I have no doubt they would have brought them. Vikings without mead are no Vikings at all... The Chinese could have brought them in 1421. No doubt the Spanish brought them sometime after 1500 or so, perhaps as late as the 1600s. But the manifest that is often quoted says they arrived in Virginia in 1622.
I'm Lakota and one of our words for bee is "wichayazipa". Beeswax is "wichayazipa wigli" which means literally "bees fat". Bumble bee is Wichayazipa hinsma. Honey bee is "wichayazipa thunkce". That is as opposed to words like "wichayazipa zi" (yellow jacket) and "chanhanpi" (sugar).
I ask people from other tribes all the time, and have always gotten similar results. They have words for bees, honey and beeswax that are not made up words like the words for monkey or cow or horse. For instance the word for monkey translates "dog man" (shunka wicasa) and horse is "great dog" (shunkawakan) and cow is "female meat" (pte win) while the word for a buffalo cow changed from "female meat" to "real female meat" (pte winyelo). These European things have made up names.
https://books.google.com/books?id=29swAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA299&dq=American+Bee+Journal+%22Jeremy+Belknap%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAGoVChMIgJus0IOxxwIVFBKSCh2NFwF7#v=onepage&q=American%20Bee%20Journal%20%22Jeremy%20Belknap%22&f=false
American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6) starting on page 299
IS THE HONEYBEE NATIVE OF AMERICA?
A Discourse Intended to Commemorate the Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus.
By Jeremy Belknap.
Delivered at the request of the Historical Society of Massachusetts on the 23rd of October, 1792
Dissertation No. 3, on the question whether the honeybee is a native of America.
Mr. Jefferson, in his notes on Virginia, has said that ?The honeybee is not a native of our continent. The Indians concur with us in the tradition that it was brought from Europe, but when and by whom we know not. The bees have generally extended themselves into the country, a little in advance of the white settlers. The Indians called them the white man?s fly; and consider their approach as indicating the approach of the settlement of the whites.? He allows that ?in Brazil there is a species of honeybee without a sting, but that is very different from the one we have, which perfectly resembles that of Europe.? The facts adduced by the respectable author are true; but they will not warrant his conclusion that ?the honeybee, meaning the one resembling that of Europe, is not a native of our continent.?
There is one circumstance in the history of Columbus which proves that bees were known in the islands of the West Indies, at the time of his discovery. When on his first return to Europe he was in danger of perishing at sea, he wrote an account of his discovery on parchment, which he inclosed in a cake of wax, and put into a tight cask, committing the whole to the sea, in hope of it?s being driven on shore or taken up. This was procured in the island of Hispaniola, which he had visited, and it was one of the first fruits of his discovery.
The indefatigable Purchas gives us an account of the revenues of the Empire of Mexico, before the arrival of the Spaniards, as described in its annals; which were pictures drawn on cotton cloth. Among other articles he exhibits the figures of covered pots with two handles, which are said to be pots of ?bees? honey.? Of these pots, two hundred are depicted in one tribute-roll, and one hundred in several others.
This account is confirmed by the late history of Mexico, written by the Abbe Clavigero, a native of Vera Cruz who from a residence of thirty-six years in Mexico, and a minute inquiry into the natural history and antiquities of his country must be supposed to be well informed, and competent to give a just account. He tells us that a part of every useful production of nature or art was paid in tribute to the kings of Mexico, and among other articles of revenue he reckons ?600 cups of honey? paid annually by the inhabitants of the southern part of the empire. He also says, ?that though they extracted a great quantity of wax from the honeycomb, they either did not know how or were not at pains to make lights of it.?
In his enumeration of the insects of Mexico, he reckons six different kinds of bees which make honey, four of which have no stings, and one of the other two which have stings, one ?agrees with the common bee of Europe, not only in size, shape and color, but also disposition and manners, and in qualities of its honey and wax.?
In the account given by Purchas, of the travels of Ferdinado de Soto, in Florida, it is observed that when he came to Chiaha, which by the description was one of the upper branches of the Mobile (now in the State of Georgia) he found among the provisions of the natives ?a pot full of honey of bees.? This was A.D. 1540, when there were no Europeans settled on the continent of America, but in Mexico and Peru.
From these authorities it is evident that honeybees were known in Mexico and the islands, before the arrival of the Europeans; and that they had extended as far northward as Florida, a country so denominated from the numberless flowers, which grow there in the wild luxuriance and afford a plenty of food for this useful tribe of insects. The inference is, that bees were not imported by the Spaniards; for however fond they might be of honey as an article of food, or of wax to make tapers for common use, or for the illumination of their churches, yet as bees were known to be in the country there could be no need of importing them. The report of honey and wax being found in the islands, in Mexico, and in Florida, had reached Europe and had been published there long before any emigrations were made to the northward; therefore, if these had been considered as articles of subsistence or of commerce, the sanguine spirit of the first adventurers would have rather led them to think of finding them in America, than of transporting bees from Europe to make them.
As to the circumstance of the bees ?extending themselves a little in advance of white settlers,? it cannot be considered as a conclusive argument in favor or their having been first brought from Europe. It is well known that where land is cultivated bees find a greater plenty of food than in the forest. The blossoms of fruit trees, of grasses and grain, particularly clover and buckwheat, afford them a rich and plentiful repast, and they are seen in vast numbers in our fields and orchards at the season of those blossoms. They therefore delight in the neighborhood of ?the white settlers?, and are able to increase in numbers, as well as to augment their quantity of stores, by availing themselves of the labors of man. May it not be from this circumstance that the Indians have given them the name of ?the white man?s fly?; and that they ?consider their approach (or frequent appearance) as indicating the approach of the settlement of the whites??
The first European settlement in Virginia was made about seventy years after the expedition of De Soto, in Florida, and the first settlement in New England was ten years posterior to that of Virginia. The large intermediate country was uncultivated for a long time afterward. The southern bees, therefore, could have no inducement to extend themselves very far into the northward for many years after the settlements were begun, and within that time bees were imported from Europe.
That honey and wax were not known to the Indians of New England is evident from this, that they had no words in their language for them. When Mr. Eliot translated the Bible into the Indian language, wherever these terms occurred he used the English words, though sometimes with Indian termination.
Joffelyn, who visited New England first in 1638, and afterward in 1663, and wrote an account of his voyage with some sketches of natural history in 1673, speaks of the honeybee in these words: ?the honeybees are carried over by the English, and thrive there exceedingly.?
There is a tradition in New England that the person who first brought a hive of bees into the country was rewarded with a grant of land; but the person?s name, or the place where the land lay or by whom the grant was made, I have not been able to learn.
It appears then that the honeybee is a native of America, and that its productions were found by the first European visitors as far northward as Florida and Georgia. It is also true that bees were imported from Europe into New England, and probably into Virginia; but whether if this importation had not taken place, the bees of the southern parts would not have extended themselves northerly, or whether those which we now have are not a mixture of native and imported bees, cannot be determined. It is however certain that they have multiplied exceedingly, and that they are frequently found in New England, in a wild state, in the trunks of hollow trees, as far northward as cultivation and settlements have extended, which is nearly to the 45th degree of latitude.
I have made an inquiry of several persons from Canada, but have not learned that bees were known during their residence in that country. It is, however, not improbable that as cultivation extends, the bees may find their way to the northward of the lakes and rivers of Canada, even though none should be transported thither by the inhabitants.
Still American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6) page 300
Was there a Native Honey-Bee?
By Frank C. Pellett.
We are indebted to our good friend Harold L. Kelly of Washing D.C. for the above article written by Mr. Belknap in 1792. Mr. Kelly found this among some old writings on bees in the Library of Congress. Written, as it was, so long ago, it is of much historical interest, although not altogether convincing to one who is familiar with the bees of the tropics.
The first statement to the effect that Columbus enclosed an account of his discovery of a cake of wax is not conclusive for the reason that the wax could easily have been obtained from the stingless bees.
The Mexican bees are said to be of six different kinds, of which four have no stings and the other two have stings. The stingless bees, of course, could not be mistaken for the honey-bee. One of the stinging kind was very probably the honey-making wasp, which was described by the writer in this Journal in January, 1921.
Since the description which was supposed to refer to the honey-bee was written long after the Spaniards had settled in Mexico it does not follow that it was a native species to which the writer referred.
The reference to the ?pot full of honie of bees? found in what is now Georgia is more convincing, but even this might easily refer to the product of the bumblebee, which produces a small amount of honey. The natives were often attracted by food in small quantity and travelers finding them eating honey might mention the fact without calling attention to the source.
The fact that the honeybee extended its range so rapidly and in advance of settlement indicates that it was an introduced species. This is not absolute, however, since a change in conditions often affects the spread of a native species. The breaking up of the prairies caused the Colorado potato beetle, a native insect, to change its food plant from buffalo burr to the potato, and then to spread all over the continent. This change however, came with the advance of settlement and not ahead of it. It is possible, of course, that there was a native honey-bee confined to a limited area which remained in its original habitat and that it was the European species which did in fact spread over the country following its introduction.
There is a persistent opinion that the honeybee was native to America although no proof of the fact has yet been brought forward. We are much interested in establishing the fact or definitely proving to the contrary and appreciate such information as the above which Mr. Kelly has found. Through his kindness we are able also to republish, for our readers, notes concerning bees in Mexico to which Mr. Belknap refers.
Still American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6) page 301
EXCERPT FROM THE HISTORY OF MEXICO
By Abbe D. Francesco Saverio Clavigero (1731-1787)
Translated from the original Italian in 1806 by Chas Cullen, Esq.
Excerpt from Book 1, of Volume 1.
Bees
There are at least six different kinds of bees. The first is the same as the common bee of Europe, with which it agrees, not only in size, shape and color, but also in its disposition and manners, and in the qualities of its honey and wax.
The second species which differs from the first only in having no sting, is the bee of Yucatan and Chiapa, which makes the fine, clear honey of Estabentun, of an aromatic flavor, superior to that of all other kinds of honey with which we are acquainted. The honey is taken from them six times a year, that is once in every other month; but the best is that which is got in November, being made from a white flower like Jessamine, which blooms in September, called in that country Estabentun, from which the honey has derived its name. The honey of Estabentun is in high estimation with the English and French, who touch at the ports of Yucatan; and I have known the French of Buarico to buy it sometimes for the purpose of sending it as a present to the king.
The third species resembles in its form, the winged ants, but is smaller than the common bee, and without a sting. This insect, which is peculiar to warm and temperate climates, forms nests, in size and shape resembling sugar loaves, and even sometimes greatly exceeding these in size, from trees, and particularly from the oak. The populousness of these hives is much greater than those of the common bee. The nymphs of this bee, which are eatable, are white and round, like a pearl. The honey is of a grayish color, but of a fine flavor.
The fourth species is a yellow bee, smaller than the common one, but like it, furnished with a sting. Its honey is not equal to those already mentioned.
The fifth is a small bee furnished with a sting which constructs its hives of an orbicular form. In subterranean cavities; and the honey is sour and somewhat bitter.
The Tlalpiprolli, which is the sixth species, is black and yellow of the size of the common bee, but has no sting.
Wasp
The Xicotli or Xicote, is a thick black wasp, with a yellow belly, which makes a very sweet honey, in holes made by it in walls. It is provided with a strong sting, which gives a very painful wound. The cuicalmiahautl has likewise a sting, but whether it makes honey or not, we do not know."